PIM,

The objective is to find a way to stop the violence coming out of Basque Country. You don't end it by having a press and government that basically says Basques are the enemy. There's more than enough hate on both sides to fuel a war.

The things that are being said in the Spanish press, and by government officials, maligns all Basques, not just ETA and Batasuna. If a person doesn't step forward and stand beside the government of Spain they are automatically classified as "an enemy of the state." I'm afraid I've heard that tune before and it don't play in a democracy, when there's millions of people directly and indirectly involved in the Basque movement.

Now, you all may think that outlawing Batasuna was a good move, but you're going to find out, as time goes on, that all that's been done is create a bigger monster. So, I wouldn't get too comfortable in the fact that the Spanish government did the right thing. When you cut off lines of communications with a people, you end up with another Bosnia and Serbia. I'm afraid that may very well be where this is heading. The problems have just begun, and when people look back at it, they had better face the truth, not some idealistic impression they had, based on propaganda.

To be honest, the whole issue developing concerns me as much, if not more, than the issue of terrorism in the U.S. At least the terrorism we suffer from is external. Your problems, in Spain, are internal, and that is even harder to deal with, because you have no way of knowing who the enemy really is.

Wolf

I think Basque Country is blackmailing with violence.

As long as they search independence by killing others, they do not deserve it.

Bombing people to bits and pieces on the streets of Madrid , or any other town, village etc, is pure anarchy, and it has to stop.

Only then can negotiations start, basques have issues, but whether they warrant independence is totally a different question, and has nothing to do with basques left leaning ideologies.

Wolf,
Your last post definitely puts the context of the Basque dilemma in focus for me. I have been trying to understand the Basque situation. As I previously said to Pim, the perspectives,and its complexity are indeed overwhelming. However, as one examines the broader issues, I begin to see why you believe that the outlawing of the Batasuna movement was, in retrospect a mistake. As we are seeing now. There will be a tendency, even among the moderate Basques to, "circle the wagons." This will lead to greater violence and disharmony. In a sense the Spanish government has unwittingly coalesced the moderates to think in terms of secesion. Truly tragic set of circumstances.

In regards to the demonization of the entire Basque community by government and press, this too will lead to an eventual severing of any type of positive relationships in the future, history has proven that.

My heart goes out to the people of Spain who have been victimized by ETA, and especially to the people of Pais Vasco, who will end up paying for the excesses of ETA, particularly if your predictions prove correct.

Okay, everyone firmly grasp your can openers...got your can of worms? And TWIST!

You mention Arzalluz's comment that Basques are a different race...pure-blooded Basques are definitely not of the same stock as say, Castellanos. What's the issue with that statement? Is he some sort of nationalistic xenophobe for stating the obvious? No creo...

If you lined up twenty Basques and twenty castellanos in a row, mixed in, I could easily tell you, with about 98% certainty, which were the 20 Basques. Again, they are a separate group, they just happen to be under Spanish and French political control as we debate this today.

Don't misread me. I've not said that ETA is right and that killing for any reason is okay.

"Zeus", that's what ETA is, among other things, "Blackmailers Inc." (i.e.: "Get every jailed Basque person close to the Basque land within 48hrs. or we'll kill Miguel Angel Blanco")

Wolf,

The Spanish press does not malign anybody but the mob responsible of making this country sometimes feel like the worst nightmarish place. Now, one can read between the lines (what's not there) all one wants. Preconceptions are free.
How often do you hear or have direct access to what the Spanish authorities have to say on this matter?
THE KIND OF ANTI-SPANISH GOVERNMENT PROPAGANDA YOU SEEM TO BE GETTING OVER THERE IS REALLY DISHEARTENING.
I believe the "with or against me" line is being expressed by ANOTHER president these days.
ETA AND HB ALSO love saying: "either you do/vote/say/pay....this or else...." and we know what threats made by, or on behalf of, assassins mean, no?
Wolf, the thing is, Spaniards could never be idealistic about this subject even if we wanted to. "This" has not just started, it's been going on for over 40 years.
So allow many of us to feel that at least, finally someone dares doing SOMETHING, taking some serious action dignifies our institutions.

Sometimes, reading here certain opinions coming from US citizens sounds a little ironic; In Spain there are a couple of HB folks who get to be members of Parliament (not anymore though!), in the US, these same two persons could maybe be on deathrow, because they have been involved in committing murders.

Here most people are aware of what the ETA members are, they are human beings just like everyone else that have been terribly and tragically brainwashed since they were kids. I say this because I'm watching Mr. Bush in the news as I write and he keeps referring to "evil" as if certain entire nations were nothing but evil entities (surely there must be some "good guys" thrown in as well!)

And finally, if our constitution gets amended so that the secession of the Pais Vasco referendum can take place, I'd demand that it is changed also so that better anti-child abuse, domestic violence,....regulations can be implimented.

Cali, I'm not even going to get into the race issue, it's way too much.

Paloma I. Martin ARRONDO (I guess I'm mixed raced)

It's really very simple everybody.
Carrot and stick.
Buy off the Basque elite, create some government pork barrel jobs, and then crack down heavy on everybody who assists Basque seperatism activities; from pay offs to local Basque thugs, to "political" activites, to stopping trade of "those" regions and or people who don't comply.

The Basques are more Spanish than most of the French, the Portugese, and for sure the rest of the Europeans.

Basque seperatism is merely a little left over vomit from the Franco era.

p.s. words to the Spanish National Anthem wouldn't hurt either.

Wolf: It is always easier to think that the barbarism has a rational explanation, an ulterior reason of being, right?

Some of my friends, after 9/11, told me that the terrorist attacks were a natural consequence of the international politics of the USA. You know what I answered them? ¡Malnacidos! How can anyone dare to think that there is a reason for such a crime? NEVER.

I now find here the same kind of logical arguing. The terrorism of ETA is the consequence of the national politics of Spain.

Yes, it is easier to think that (is the first answer anyone naturally thinks when such atrocities are committed), but it is not the truth. The truth is that there is no reason for it. Why would a normal man think he can impose his ideas to anyone by the force of arms? I don't know.

There is also something more some of you have said that annoys me: The proposal of independence is consequence of the outlawing of Batasuna. False!

1º) The main nationalist parties (excluding Batasuna) signed an agreement in the Estella village 5 years ago to pursue this same scenary, with or without the violence of ETA.

2º) The Ley de Partidos (Political Parties Law) was started to being discussed a year and a half ago, when the european authorities answered the spanish government they couldn't include Batasuna in the list of terrorist bands if it was a legal political party in Spain. A law was written and aproved by the Parlament. This law was not a direct outlawing of Batasuna. It just stated some principles any party should follow (as not having condemned terrorists in the party, not making homages to terrorist dead members, etc). Batasuna did the rest by breaking the law.

This two issues have a coincidence in time, but not in origin.

Finally some pearls of basque nationalist leaders:

"The people coming south from Alava are rats"

"I prefer a black who speaks euskera than a white who doesn't speak it" (Javier Arzallus, PNV president)

"We don't support the PNV proposal. We are not going anywhere without any territory where basques live [in reference to Navarra and french basque territories]." (Arnaldo Otegui, Batasuna president)

In this country [=The Basque Country], during fourty years, there was a tremendous inmigration... Ok, they seeked a job. But they diluted the evil done by Franco, because if not for them, we could have done an autodetermination [=Independence] referendum and wining it for sure." (Javier Arzallus)

"ETA is a ulcer which bleeds from time to time, but which won't kill us" (Javier Arzallus)

"...the kids of the gasoline [=those street terrorists who have burnt alive policemen with molotov cocktails]" (Javier Arzallus)

"We have a lot of inmigrants who reached here during the Franco regime. Then a question is made: Is german a turkish who have lived various decades in Germany? He wants to be german? Not everyone who lives with us wants to be basque." (Javier Arzallus)

The basque nationalism (please don't identify it with the basques, it only represents a portion of them) is racist, intolerant and xenophobic.

Fernando

I couldn't have said it better Fernando Maestro!

Absolutely.

Summation:

Toddy: Carrot and stick. Treat the Basques like they were little children. Punish them, then hand them a piece of candy for being good little girls and boys, by doing exactly what the Madrid government tells them to do. Talk about ways to stop violence, not create more terrorism. Any Basque who thinks the carrot & stick is being used would make you eat the stick and shove the carrot --- 'nuff said.

Supporters of outlawing Batasuna: Cut off all avenues of negotiations with the Basques. Deny them the right to protest in the political forum, by outlawing their most vocal advocates because they failed to follow Madrid's specific orders. Then tell the moderate advocates they are next, if they don't do what they are told by the federal government. Tell them, "Behave or else!"

What's wrong with that picture? How does the bloodshed end if you can't talk? How do you call yourself a democracy when you are free to do and say what you want, as long as it isn't against the government holding office?

This "hard-line approach" isn't directed at ETA, it's directed at all Basques. It can't be hidden behind a smoke screen that says it's only against ETA and Batasuna. Too many anti-Basque sentiments crop up in what's said.

I find it hard to believe anyone with a shred of common sense would figure that the present situation will lend itself to eliminating ETA, eliminate the bombings, or get the people of Basque Country to buy into anything that comes out of Madrid.

Brain-washed since childhood indeed. Make the whole thing sound exactly like al-Qaeda and the world will buy the rhetoric. If talking idealism, patriotism, and fundamental human rights at a kitchen table is brain-washing, almost everyone is guilty of doing it. Even teachers.

All you have to do is twist the wording to your own choosing, then apply it. Pick out something heinous to compare with even though there's no real comparison there. Why not? It worked for the Nazis, didn't it?

See? I just did it myself. Compare the tactics of the government to something horrible, and people take notice. There's no real comparison between the Spanish government and the Nazis. None. Yet, by saying it, we are shocked. It's like saying that ETA and anyone who is for Basque self-determination is a Marxist/Leninist, and that the Madrid government is all Fascists. Neither case is really true.

When all else fails, throw "counter-charges" out. If there's no defense for a stance, say; "George Bush is an sob! Look at your own policy in regards to Iraq!"

Sorry gang! It has nothing to do with the Basque situation. Nada! Bringing it up tends to make a reasonable person think you've run out of arguments.

I have nothing more to say on the subject. I'm not an ETA supporter, and I believe what they are doing is wrong. But I'm also not a supporter of the measures taken against the Basques, in the name of some unknown justice, to fight terrorism. All I really see is that the Basques are being held hostage by both sides. Guess which cause they'll join when push comes to shove?

Wolf