I'm afraid to ask but: Is the referendum requested by the PV president for the Pais Vasco only, or for the whole of Spain?

How much autonomy does the PV already have?

Booklady,
A lot.

Wolf,
I confess I'm a little surprised you ask that question; quite a few times, some "posters" "talk" about this or that being unconstitutional, usually referring to actions that the "Madrid Government" (by that you mean the Spanish Government, right?) undertake. So I thought everybody was such an expert on our constitution here!
By law, in Spain referendums can't be carried out locally, if there was a referendum about the indepencence of the Pais Vasco we would all vote. The PNV wants to change the constitution beforehand so only the Basque people would vote.

It seems like a reasonable thing to allow people to vote to decide if they want separate or not. I agree with Wolf on this one. If a there were a clear legal path that the Basque Country could follow maybe it would provide a peaceful way for people to direct their separatist feelings. After banning Batasuna, now people are putting up posters from other known radicalist groups, so thigns haven´t changed, just the names have. I think that Madrid should support a referendum on the subject.

Roe, you live there, think about it, think about the Basque small villages where everybody knows everyone very well; do you suppose the result of that referendum would be 100% true to people's opinions and feelings?, I'd say terror is a factor that can taint(¿?) the outcome even if it's only a little bit, and what's really the use of voting anything if it's not done 101% freely?
I personally (and I'm sure millions of Spaniards agree) have wished for the longest time that:
-The constitution allowed regional referendums.
-The voting took place but ALL sorts of measures were taken somehow so that everyone who wanted to vote, did so, and viceversa.
-Those voters were totally fear-free
-If the result was NO independence for the Pais Vasco....too bad guys!
-If the result was YES and farewell to Spain; we would bye-bye back. (though I'd be sad for the thousands of Basques that would be in a separate country, without wanting to, and "left alone" with some pretty unhuman individuals! )

PIM,

I refer to the Madrid government because that's how the Basques who want separation refer to it. It's as if it was another nation.

I realize that the Spanish government won't allow for a referendum vote in Basque Country. In the US, states can, and do, offer referendums on their own, but nothing as far reaching as to whether or not they can secede from the union. That would be illegal in the US as well.

But, what does matter is that the government keeps indicating the Basques don't really want more autonomy, and that the intent of cutting off Batasuna is that they were the political wing of ETA. In both cases, the statements are generalized and only partially true. Many people who have gauged the issue believe the majority of people in Basque Country do want their own nation, and that Batasuna may have very well been the only link to open dialogue that could have stopped the bombings. By eliminating Batasuna, the government has actually pushed thousands of people who weren't supportive of ETA over the edge, and into their camp.

If the Spanish government wants to resolve the question of independence for Basque Country once and for all, and really believes the majority of people in Basque Country don't want to be a separate nation, they should feel comfortable in at least offering a non-binding referendum where only the Basques could vote on the issue. I see no reason for any other region to be involved in the vote. It's not their issue, it's an issue for the people of Basque Country.

Let them vote. A non-binding referendum. Let the Spanish government prove to the world that the Basques don't really want their own nation.

Wolf (Who believes there will be no referendum because it will tell the truth, and it isn't exactly what Madrid wants people to know.)

Bad argument Wolf, with all my respect.

The Basque Government was already in the path of making such a proposal. They decided to follow the path of separatism 4 years ago, not a month ago when Batasuna was ilegalized (there is not a cause-effect relationship between both facts).

The Government has not outlawed Batasuna. The Government has asked the Supreme Court to do so following a law made by the Spanish Parlament and voted by majority, with the aproval of the Constitutional Court. Batasuna was outlawed because they commited crimes contained in that law, not due to their ideas.

The Basque Country is the most autonomous region in all Europe. They have even more rights and competences than a german federal lander, than Scotland and than a federal state of the USA.

They have a legal path to made a referendum, which is presenting the petition of 500,000 persons in the spanish parlament. The Basque Government don't want to call for a referendum, because they know that they will loose it.

Also, the Basque Country is not Quebec. All the political oposition (50% of the basque parlamentaries are from the PP,PSOE and UA) have to have bodyguards. ETA is a real mafia, who imposes in small villages the vote on their radical political arm by the force of terror.

In this conditions a referendum are inviable.

The spanish Constitution of 1978 (aproved by vast majority of more than 70% votes for in the Basque Country) stablish that the subject of soberignity are the spanish citizens as a whole. I don't want a federal state model, nor the majority of spaniards. And I don't want my country broken into smaller states. Why would they do by themselves?

My money, and the money of other spaniards, have been historicaly used to build colosal infrastructures in the Basque Country (the Bilbao Seaport, highways, public industries,...). If they go independent, I want it back!

Fernando

Wolf, a referendum to change the Constitution must be national wide, not only local.

Also, as I stated above, there are not enough guarantees for the basques to vote in freedom (not fearing reprisals for voting some party).

Your argument is: Let them do what they want, so they will stop the bombings. ETA will continue killing even if they reach an idependent country. They are a marxist-leninist terrorist band, it is a joke to think otherwise...

What of the 50% of non-nationalist who doesn't want an independent country? What for the 200,000 baques exiliated to other regions of Spain? Would they have a vote right? The inmigrants? (called spanish rats by a PNV politic in a most xenophobic way) Who could vote? What would happen to those who didn't vote for independence?

And finally: Would you as an american leave, for example, Florida, to constitute itself as an independent country?

Fernando

Fernando,

I stated in my post that a referendum to secede from the union in the US would not be allowed. Would I condone it for Florida? To be honest, I don't know. Has Florida "asked to secede?" A lot of Americans might be willing to allow it, if they asked for it. But that's not my view. I'm neutral on the issue. I ask why the Spanish government can't allow a "non-binding" referendum, that would do no more than let everyone in Spain know the truth?

Guarantees of safety. A polling place, with proper guards, and ballots that allow a person to check their choices should be safe enough. How would anyone know which way they were voting? If you have fears for safety when it comes to the people getting to the polling place, set up additonal safeguards as the government sees fit. Set up an online method, a phone in method, anything to insure safety. Just make sure that each "resident of Basque Country who is of legal age" gets to vote, and their vote is counted.

I keep hearing this, "Who gets to vote?" thing over and over. Obviously you have to be a resident of Basque Country to vote. Just because a person is of Basque descent, and living in Cleveland, Ohio doesn't give them a right to vote. The Spanish government offers that up as one of the smoke screens that makes people say, "See? It wouldn't be fair. We don't even know who would vote." You have residency requirements in Spain, honor those laws and boundaries in the referendum.

I didn't say, "Let them do what they want if they stop the bombing." I raised the issue as to how accurate the information from the Spanish government is, and wonder what their real intent is, when it came to cutting off Batasuna. I find it hard to believe that legislators could sit in session, and throw someone out of office, because they refused to condemn something like they had. I wonder why The Spanish government doesn't realize they've created a worse enemy now than they had before, with thousands of new people taking up their cause.

"They're all Leninists & Marxists?" The two political ideologies are different. They disagree unto each other, and cannot survive together. They wouldn't work together, like the Spanish government alludes. That makes me question why people keep saying that ETA is "All Leninists & Marxists." It doesn't play in Altoona, sorry. It sounds like pure propaganda fed to the press, nothing more.

The excuses for why a non-binding election can't be held don't hold up under scrutiny. If you live in Basque Country, you should be allowed to vote. It's just that simple. The government should stop clouding the issue with senseless reasons why they can't hold the elections.

Wolf

Strange issue, and a strange time indeed this is
I agree totally that it is a mistake to illegalize Batasuna. The new law is good only to reduce free speech all over the kingdom of Spain and encourage more stupid Basque patriotic brats to join ETA "due to the opression that our nation is suffering". The PP obviously has many fascist trends, and enjoys giving propaganda to the people instead of intelligent decisions. That as much as the Spanish government is concerned.
But the PNV is not much better. Now they want to start a process of independence. Great, but...Is that really the first priority in their country? Really? The idea that Basques support the 1978 Constitution, only that are being opressed by evil nationalists, is just Spanish propaganda, but... Shouldn`t the Basque government worry about more close problems, rather than "Freedom for the nation"? Basque society is divided, and apparently the PNV has not made much to fill the gap between the nationalist majority and the constitutionalist minority. They seem more worried to teach kids at school the way Spain (supposedly) invaded and destroyed their country, rather than respect their Spanish-Basque neighbours.
Basque nationalist claim that their liberty as a nation is under the opression of Spain. They feel "unconfortable" being part of the Kingdom. But what comes first? Their collective right to decide about being independent, or the individual rights that nationalist biggots threat everywhere in Euskadi, burning bookshops, threatening, blackmailng, or killing people? If I were Basque, and wanted independence (and there are very good reasons to make that choice), I would feel ashamed to ask for it, as long as my political rivals felt scared to express their disagreement.

And that's exactly the way I feel...I just can't say it so eloquently! Gracias, Wolf!

CaliBasco [Who is still under condemnation by some on this board for 'turning every post into a pro-radical Basque' statement; I am neither radical nor Basque (by birth)]