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#62748 - 10/02/02 03:10 PM Re: Batasuna
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
This is a most controversial issue indeed.

Wolf:
The subject of a referendum is not that easy. Safety for the voters can't be guaranteed. It is legaly impossible with the actual laws (save the path I stated above). And it wouldn't be backed by spaniards (in general).

What I can't share is the philosophy of "This is getting worse, let them do what they want". Laws have to be respected, criminals have to be jailed, and the point of view of the majority of the spaniards must be not only respected (by nationalists) but defended and pursued (by the main political spanish parties). We don't want referendums, and we don't want disintegration of the country. We want ETA to stop killing.

As for ETA as marxist-leninists, I have not readen it in a newspaper, heard it in the TV news, or having been said by a politic. It is how ETA itself describes its ideology.

Cristobo: I respect your opinion about the ilegalization of Batasuna though I don't share it. They have had 25 years to freely defend their arguments, and what they have done is nothing but laughing at the victims face, supporting each ETA killing and giving it infrastructure.

I fully agree that the main problem is the lack of freedom as a consequence of ETA activity and the nationalist lack of action against it. The nationalist point of view is respectable (when it is pursued by democratic means) though.

CaliBasco: Please I wouldn't sleep if you see me as a censor. I give you permission to speak freely :p But don't expect me to agree on anything you say.

Just one more thing: One of the main characteristics of the nationalism in Spain is the victimism. This time (at least for me) it is crystaline clear who is been attacked, who wants to break the current status, who wants to do things in an ilegal way, and finally, who wants to take advantage of the ETA killings.

Fernando

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#62749 - 10/02/02 04:19 PM Re: Batasuna
CaliBasco Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 1495
Loc: Idaho
Trust me, there's no way you or anyone else on this board would be able to shut me up. Don't flatter yourself. wink :p

On second thought, I guess MadridMan could always take away my posting privileges...you wouldn't, would you, MM? eek

Eloquence: n. Ability to clearly and effectively articulate one's point of view; ant. CaliBasco;
_________________________
Ongi etorri!

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#62750 - 10/02/02 05:02 PM Re: Batasuna
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Gracias, Pim for your answer. As you know I am no expert of Spanish politics, but am willing to learn!

I do want to thank those posting for sharing your information and points of view. This is indeed a fascinating topic from so many perspectives. the more I read the more complex the case of Pais Vasco seems to appear. From one perspective there are the terrorists terrorizing the citizens of Pais Vasco as well as the rest of Spain. Then there is the perspective that a non-binding referendum may serve to establish, once and for all, the will of the voters of the region. Yet at the same time there is the difficulty of the vote itself, how can one establish a fair vote without intimidation. Then in a broader sense, there is the perspective of a region demanding to secede after a 500 year history of being united.
A truly complex situation.

Fernando, as for Florida, if we don't learn how to run our elections, we won't have to secede, the other 49 states will just vote us out of the union and give each citizen a years supply of Paxil for being too dumb to vote properly! laugh
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#62751 - 10/02/02 06:41 PM Re: Batasuna
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
That was really funny Booklady! laugh

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#62752 - 10/02/02 10:24 PM Re: Batasuna
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Booklady,

I for one don't blame the people of Florida for the fiasco in the elections. It was that left wing pinko group (all are Marxist/Republicans) that decided it was a question of chads.

Hell! We hadn't even really heard about chads until then. Who made that name up anyway? It sounds like a small fish that's been left out of the water too long and is beginning to stink. Hey! That's it! The whole thing in Florida stunk! I get it! rolleyes

I can picture a close vote in Pais Vasco. The issue decided by chads, and which side could blow up more polling booths before people arrived to vote, in "enemy territory." eek

Wolf (Who doesn't think that everyone who wears pink is a pinko. rolleyes )

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#62753 - 10/02/02 11:26 PM Re: Batasuna
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Wolf,
I was referring to our most recent debacle at the polls on September 4, not the previous Chads from Hell disaster! laugh laugh Our license plates will soon be changed from the Sunshine State to reflect our new name : the Recount State!

Getting back to our thread's topic, I hope that Pais Vasco will not encounter this type of voting ordeal,when they hold any type of election. It's embarrassing frown eek rolleyes !
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#62754 - 10/02/02 11:39 PM Re: Batasuna
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Booklady,

So it goes in the world of Elmer Fudd, Bugs Bunny, and that pesky Mouse, Mickey. I didn't want to bring up their latest problems. The State Supreme Court is still wading through the fiasco of 2000. rolleyes

Wolf (Who will vote in-absentia as an Illinois resident if he moves to Florida. laugh )

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#62755 - 10/03/02 06:21 AM Re: Batasuna
Shawn Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/28/00
Posts: 308
Loc: mentally - Spain, Physically -...
If a referendum were to take place, it should not just require a simple majority. It hardly seems just that such a profund decision could be undertaken with 50%+1 result. The level of terror from ETA thugs could easily manipulate the tally. Think how difficult it is to amend the US Constitution, if it were an easy task we would be amending our Constitution every day. In order to assure that the result was something more than just a whim, Spain should at least require 2/3 approval. Can you imagine a situation where there is an even division between the pro and con voters, we could see a scene in Bilbao like in Dade County, Florida. But instead of lawyers arguing, we could see election officials being killed by ETA.

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#62756 - 10/03/02 06:49 AM Re: Batasuna
Miguelito Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 603
I ask myself if the Basque government would let one of his three provinces to separate being an independent comunity or if even a province would leave a group of towns or villages to separate or to join another different province. There are a lot of places that would like to be independent, and not always the frontiers are so clear. For example, Alava is not as basque, as it's closer to Castilla they had more relation and has more influences. Some parents send their children to study to Burgos, so they don't have to study euskera, ....
Another example, the Aran valley in Catalonia has a different dialect of catalan, it has been a very isolated region so it has developed some cultural diferences. It's a very rich region because of the ski and the tourism so they would like to be independent, some kind of Andorra, well, there's not such a strong feeling of nacionalism, but there's the idea. Of course it's because of economic interests.
I don't have a clear opinion, I think the best solution would be a final autonomy inside of one only country or a kind of federalism. We have the example in the history of Spain of the Taifas kingdoms, during the musulman ocupation, these kingdoms weren't united and they were easily conquered by the christians...

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#62757 - 10/03/02 10:36 AM Re: Batasuna
pim Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 662
Loc: Brussels
Right,
Questions:
-They would be "taking with them" Navarra too, right? after all, they believe to be the same people AND race, (yes, Mr. Arzallus talks about them being a different race with their own blood type, etc....)
-What about the FRENCH Pais Vasco? Does France also have to go through the process of "liberating" itself from them?
-Would they be a pathetic (sorry about that!), independent piece of land surrounded everywhere by EU territory, OR would they want to have all the advantages of being part of the union: same currency, free trade, no borders, etc....
-If the extorsion and kidnappings really ceased, how would certain etarras make a living from then on?
-Would they still call us, the rest of Spanish people, 'txacurras' (=perros=dogs), or just something like....annoying neighbors :p ; in other words....would everything be rosy and in blissful harmony....?
Uuuuff! I have so many of these rolleyes !

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