My wife awakened me this AM with a report of another bombing in a beach resort in Alicante Province: Santa Pola.

I think Santa Pola is primarily a Spanish resort (i.e., not swarming with etranjeros like Benidorm). It's a real shame that they picked August to do this dastardly deed!

Yes Eddie. It occured in Santa Pola in Alicante. (SEE HERE to read a CNN article on the aftermath of the bombing) A 6 year old girl was killed. The etarras are truly brutal savages. Many here are screaming bloody murder. It will be very interesting to see what the government's response is to the barbaric attack.

In the current global atmosphere against terrorism, it would seem appropriate that, if the Spanish government was looking for an excuse to take severe action against ETA, this could be it.

During Aznar's post-bombing speech yesterday, he referred to EH, the political-wing of ETA, as 'basura' garbage/rubbish. That's the first time I'd heard him use such a direct insult when talking about them. We'll see what happens...

I pulled the attached from CNN Europe - hope its not a duplication of Tony's efforts

http://europe.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/08/05/spain.bomb/index.html

I don't think that Aznar's insults are helping the situation. Perhaps he should tone it down a bit from that sort of tough talk. Using words like "basura" are only sure to inflame the situation and cause ETA to strike again.

Perhaps, but standing there and saying 'España va bien' (Spain's doing well - Popular PP campaign slogan) doesn't seem to be working well either.

Call me what you like, but I have to go with Garzon on this one. Spain needs to get tough with ETA...de una vez (once and for all) and not pass laws that are token human rights initiatives that are later just shelved and never acted upon.

I not only think that Aznar needs to say that EH is 'basura,' but needs to act upon what he's saying.

Those who know me from my posts elsewhere may have noticed that I'm generally pretty neutral on political issues. However, as the father of a 5 year old, I feel especially enraged at the taking of the life of a 6 year old girl in this last brutal, senseless attack.

Well, they HAVE just killed a man and A 6 YEAR-OLD LITTLE GIRL, it's really HARD not to insult them y'know....

Cali, unfortunately, here we have realized a long time ago that those "nightmerish individuals" strike every chance they get, I don't think what anybody else does or says truly affects them much, they just kill whenever they can, period.

Thank you Tony for proving my two theories correct:

1. Sarcasm doesn't travel well via bulletin board posts;

2. Even if you're norteamericano, a little time amongst "the natives" will most likely eliminate any sarcastic sense one ever had.

CaliBasco [Who dedicates his prior post to Asterault. Eres profeta, amigo...must tell others]

Might want to look further than ETA if you're outraged at killing of children... it's an outrage no matter where it happens and there are more flagrant violators than ETA for sure. How about Iraq? Afghanistan? New York? West Bank?

It's a big **** sandwich and we all gotta take a bite. I forget where that comes from je je...

*Disclaimer: the above remarks are not the viewpoint of MadridMan(TM), Spain(R), ETA(patent pending), or the United States. The United States is a registered trademark of WalMart and Enron corporation. All rights reserved. Readers should not infer nor draw conclusions from remarks about poster.

Oooo MadridMan has "yankee censor-matic" turned on on this thing! I didn't type ****

You're absolutely right Asterault. It's not right and is most certainly equally outraging no matter who does it or where it's done...under ANY circumstance.

The difference in this case is that I don't live in the other places you mentioned. I live in Spain. My daughter is here too. That's why it's affected me so I guess. This is now 'my back yard.' Not to mention, I was 30 kilometers from where the bombing took place when it happened.

I believe that pretty much all of us have been guilty at one time or another of becoming desensitized by what we see on television as being somebody else's problem and then getting angry when it happens in our own back yard.

Regarding my 'local' point of view and opinion on this particular matter, I believe that anyone who's a parent would most likely feel a larger tug on our heart if we see a child's life taken senselessly so close to us as has been the case here. I mean, it wasn't her fault she was born the daughter of a guardia civil member and turned into a target as a result...just as it's not an Iraqi or Afghan child's fault that they were not born in a more economically sound and advantageous country like Spain, the US, etc...and don't enjoy the same advantages that you guys and I do, right?

I don't know if you guys are parents or not. That may make a little bit of a difference in my case. I don't know. It would seem as though you guys may have different convictions than I do on the issue. That's ok with me. I'll respect that for whatever reason you may have. I'm just not choosing to be quiet about this life that was lost. I think of her and then I think about my own daughter. It literally makes my heart sink...

Again I repeat, you're right. My daughter like this girl who lost her life this past weekend as well as Iraqi, Afghan, Somali children, etc...etc...etc... deserve our equal consideration too.

...Sensing a turn down an unknown back street, CaliBasco continues forward in his Opel Omega...

Yes tony, we're dads too...it's just that if you dwell too much on all of the negativity in the world today [much of it, unfortunately, directed at kids, whether intentionally or not] you're going to miss your kids growing up.

Even when you teach your kids what to do in extenuating circumstances it sometimes isn't enough. Just ask Samantha Runyon's mom here in Orange County. Samantha always told her mom that if someone tried to grab her that she could get away because "[She] can run really fast and [she's] as strong as Hercules". Well, Alejandro Avila is no Hercules, but apparently got what he wanted from a five year-old who is now dead.

My point is, and I'm way off topic, way off Spain [sorry all], is that made by Asterault: There are SOBs everywhere, and it doesn't matter if you're living in KC, NYC, LA, Madrid, Malaga, whatever...you do what you can to enjoy life. If you're not enjoying life, you may need your head examined, as at last check, the good guys still outnumber the bad, regardless of what you read in El Pais or see on CNN. Maybe that's why we like this board so much...we all seem to be "good guys".

CaliBasco [Who refuses to let anyone control his thoughts by their actions]

Group hug!

Thanks Asterault...Much better...I'm feeling the love now.

I rarely watch television anymore nor do I spend more time than is necessary reading El Pais, El Mundo, ABC, etc. for the very reasons you mention Cali. (And while we're all well off topic.... I’ll stay on that bandwagon for a moment...)

I'm all for being a 'Good Guy' and 'Enjoying Life.' I've been with 'the natives' for four years now and they're working on me, molding me, and steadily making me more and more Españolito.

I too enjoy using the therapeutic service that these message boards provide, if nothing more, as one of my few opportunities to use 'native' English and just generally be a pain as much as I possibly can. (within limits of course.) It would certainly appear that I've been successful this time around.... ¡Eskerrik Asko! I'll play nice now... :p

Friday - and another ETA bomb -

http://europe.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/08/09/spain.torrevieja/index.html

Another bomb...in Torrevieja. This one hits close to home . My spanish host family (from the Basque country), has a vacation home there. They are just as disgusted by ETA as we are (They made that pretty clear from the second I stepped of the plane). In Bilbao, once a week they have a gathering, kind of a vigil, for peace when there has been ETA violence, and they celebrate peace when there hasnt been. It breaks my heart that Euskadi is known to many as "ETA territory", even I was at first nervous about going to study there. This board is one of the few places that when I say "I studied in Bilbao", I don't immediately get a terrorist related remark as a response. Thanks guys!

More group hugs...less bomb postings. We all read the dailies and know what's up. Please stop posting every bombing. It's like adding three quarts of water instead of two when you're mixing your Kool-aid...too diluted due to too much of the same. I'm sure we're not turning a blind eye. Let's just assume that. It only opens up the possibility for a discussion that has run its course on this board.

Is it safe to say that we ALL agree that bombing = bad, peace = good? Please stop

CaliBasco [Who is the "guiltiest" of succumbing to the diabolical urge to blabber on about his feelings on this topic!]

Good point Calibasco. Terrorists thrive on the media announcing their horror don't they?

I understand what you guys are saying Calibasco, and I really agree, but on this one, I have to say THANKS to Puna for the heads up on today's bomb. I was able to call and check in with my host family (I dont even want to know how much that little call is gonna cost me ) a little a while ago...just to make sure everything is ok. Alright, enough said on this topic, how about a happy subject!

I think the media thrives on the "terrorists..." another subject.

No? All right. Bombing bad.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but one thing that being outside of 'la madre patria' has taught me is that the media (all them that I've ever observed) thrives -más bien- on whatever's most 'in fashion' to thrive upon at any given moment.

Kind of like a Baskin Robbins 'flavor of the month...' type of thing...

As a member of the media, look to soap operas if you want the Ben & Jerry approach to what's trendy to highlight at the moment.

Contrary to opinion, most journos are not blood-thirsty, hard-hitting, don't-give-a-damn members of society ready to exploit human suffering, nor do we have horns at the top of our head. We report on what is of interest to people at that moment, of course - I don't think NY would've liked it if we'd ignored the aftermath of 11 September. But think about Live Aid - that came about because Bob Geldof was so outraged by a BBC News report about the famine in Africa that no-one had bothered about before until the journalist/BBC thought "That needs telling" and went out and did it. What about John Pilger reporting on the Killing Fields of Cambodia? Were they jumping on bandwagons? And even if they were, didn't some good come out of it at the end?

Our job is to tell people what is going on in the world, and I'm afraid attacks by ETA, IRA, al-Qaida, whatever, are part of that. I would love to report on kittens and newborn babies and fluff like that, but then would that stop you being aware of all the SOBs in the world who could hurt your children? If we don't tell what evil terrorist groups are doing, then that makes it all the more easier for their propaganda machines to kick in. After all, one of the first things Hitler did was take over the national press so only pro-Nazi stories were put out.

Believe it or not, we do educate the world. There are, of course, scuzzy newspapers who do thrive on reporting the worst. But that is not the majority. Don't lump "the media" as one big evil for merely reporting aspects of the world you may not wish to hear about.

"Los ojos que no ven, el corazón que no siente"

I don't believe it. Where do you work? A newspaper? How about you print a story on, since you're in the UK, how Churchill ordered gassing of the Kurds and Afghans back in the "good old days" to keep them in line. Try to get that information from your "open" government. You people print what you are told, and if you don't then you are fired, like a whole boatload of journalists in the US were in September. Prove me wrong and print something true - until then don't get all insulted because someone called the media evil.

Yeah, it's pretty sad many stigmatize a whole group (the Basque) based on the actions of a very small minority (ETA members). In my many travels to Spain, I've been surprised that many Spaniards are unable to differentiate between Basque and terrorist. This is as racist as a US citizen assuming all Muslims and Arabs are suicide bombers.

I agree this message board is filled with mostly reasoned posters, free of immature passion against the good people of Pais Vasco.

I think that Spain should use the media as much as possible to fight eta. They should fight eta on many media One of the most effective is exposing the Basque educational front. Young children are being taught to HATE Spain and are given an anti-Spain view of their history. I remember vividly riding on a bus and hearing little children on a summer field trip singing some Basque nationalist songs led by their teachers.(it reminds me of the praying anti-American islamic children) The primary economic/social crisis Spain faces is eta. The media is a perfect vehicle for exposing this coward terrorist organization!

Thanks, Toddy!

And yeah, Calibasco, you're right. This topic has run its course and I think we've all discovered that we're never all gonna agree about it. But hey, that's what makes us all individuals, right?

Bombs = bad.

Singing a song that celebrates one's culture does not itself promote terrorism. Assuming cultural pride breeds hate is flawed logic, and simplifies a complex subject. There are many more complex psychological (and deviant) factors that lead particular people to support terrorist acts.

This is case in point how Basque culture, and its people, is irrationally associated with terrorism.

JJP is exactly correct! I have studied for 3 months in Bilbao, lived with a Basque family, and been around MANY basque schools, and children. Yes, I am aware that there are always exceptions, just as their are anti-america groups in america, their are anti Spain groups in the Basque country, or any region of spain for that matter. However, children are taught to be proud of their basque heritage and celebrate their unique culture and way of life. They learn how this culture fits into the greater culture of Spain. The large majority of the people of Euskadi, even those who believe in Basque independence (which is a lot fewer than one might think), value their spanish roots and dont "hate", or teach their children to "hate" Spain . This is a very good example of the stereotypes of which I was speaking . Toddy, the "front" that you speak of his is a MAJOR minority of educational systems in Euskadi.

The media, I support using the media to try to fight the terrorism of ETA. These problems have to be exposed, as this exposure results in action and social change. However,the problems come with bias reporting. Stereotypes arise when the media portrays the basque country as a groups of unsensitive, violent, and rough group of ETA members. When in contrast, in general they are a group of open, friendly, proud, and welcoming group of people. From my experience, many people of Euskadi are ashamed, and get very upset about the subject of ETA).
Kelly

Thank you for the most rational post on the matter, that reflects the actual situation and is not "hyped" or stereotyped.

Teaching of Basque or Catalán language and culture is a fundamental right of human beings - to speak what they want and live as they choose. The government is going to tell me what to speak? What culture to follow? What to eat? I don't think so.

toddy writes: CaliBasco writes: I had to hit refresh three times to make sure that what was on the screen was really on the screen. I think I saw a similar post on another website: www.xenophobesandparanoia.you

Please for the love of all that is good, go back and edit that post. We'll all try to forget you put it there. Do you speak euskera fluently? Have you attended an ikastola? Have you ever sung "America the Beautiful" in another country or at least hummed a few bars...how about waxing patriotic at fireworks displays...zealot!!

toddy...I respect you as a human being and fellow Spanophile, but I respectfully disagree with your analysis of a busload of kids.

I don't want to make an issue of this CaliBasco, but you are again trying to impose your partial views about the Basque Country, not allowing people to chat about what they want. Why are you trying to bypass MM and being a moderator in every single issue you esteem unacceptable?

As for accusing toddy of xenophobic and paranoic (no matter how you want to put it as a joke), you don't have to have a master in Harvard to talk about things. But if that makes you happier: I have some members of my close family living in the Basque Country and yes, the basque nationalistic government has been fomenting the hate to anything spaniard in more explicit or implicit ways (because they have all the competences in educational matters).

I had basques in my high school who had fledged from the Basque Country because they couldn't stand that (real) xenophobic inmersion.

Fernando

Thank you Fernando!

I remember a few years ago there was a problem with the History books in the Basque region.
Hmmmm, this sounds too familiar.

IT'S THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM AT HOME AAAAND AT SCHOOL!

"Teach your children well"

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one. PLEASE STOP BAD TALKING THE BASQUE COUNTRY
!!! It is an awesome region of spain and I have come to love it and its people dearly. For the last time, yes there are exceptions...yes there are those in Euskadi who are anti-Spain, and yes ETA originates from this region. However, these are the EXCEPTIONS NOT THE RULE!!! What everybody needs to realize is that this exists in all of Spain and in all countries of the world.
Kelly

Hiya,
For many years now the union jack and St Georges flags, have been wrongly utilised by a certain group of people and media in order to instil fear and denial of the British identity for those like me of immigrant parents. If one decided to display and be proud of these flags it somehow meant you were a racist, an extremist, a danger.

No longer true thank goodness!
Thanks to the 2002 World Cup the Union Jack and St Georges image are back in the 'Good books' and it's cool to be British and proud of it. And this is how it should be. Everyone needs a nationality and identity and to be proud of it, lets not confuse this into meaning terrorism and hatred.
Flags=good, bombs=bad
(p.s. suppose I shouldn't flash my union jack nicks). (Maybe i should go to Tenerife and do that)jeje ooops thats another thread. :p

Tell me one single region or country in the first world in which the parties of the political oposition need to go escorted. Twenty thousand councilmen, senators and public charges need to have a escort every day to work in Spain, from the smallest village (with less than a hundred inhabitants) to the Basque Parlament and the national one.

I agree that the Basque Country has incredible landscapes, superb food, very kind people in general and is a great place to visit and to make tourism, but don't try to confuse things: there is also an amazing lack of freedom for certain people due to their ideas and many things (as the education) which makes the Basque Country a region with a democracy's deficit.

Not everything is black or white, good or bad in any place of the world.

Fernando

Once again, all of this is the result of stereotypes. Of course things are never just black and white, good and bad...however, this is how stereotyped groups are viewed.

"Tell me one single region or country in the first world in which the parties of the political oposition need to go escorted. Twenty thousand councilmen, senators and public charges need to have a escort every day to work in Spain, from the smallest village (with less than a hundred inhabitants) to the Basque Parlament and the national one.

I agree that the Basque Country has incredible landscapes, superb food, very kind people in general and is a great place to visit and to make tourism, but don't try to confuse things: there is also an amazing lack of freedom for certain people due to their ideas and many things (as the education) which makes the Basque Country a region with a democracy's deficit."

Well put Fernando.

Do they still allow those eta youth camps?

Exactly, and that's why insinuating the majority of Basque people support ETA and terrorism is reckless. There are pockets of extremism in Pais Vasco, but in no way do they represent the true view of Basque people.

Indeed it's unfortunate that government officials need police escort, but this only highlights the motives of a minority. The problem with a statement like this, though, is that it gives the impression the whole region condones such violent means to an end.

...and perpetuates stereotypes.

TODDY STOP

Well then, the "good" majority you speak of needs to deal with the problem a lot more seriously,no? How about starting in the educational systems?
And do they still have those eta youth camps?

"Toddy stop" hmmmm....I think this is an interesting debate tactic but,sorry I can't stop a true debate even if it hurts

I think we're heading down that road again, MM...you know the one, the same one we've traveled EVERY time this thread has been unraveled.

Oddly enough, when I post, it's "CaliBasco trying to impose his views on the Basque Country". When someone who agrees with Fernandito posts it's "well said" and "yippee, someone thinks like me". I'm happy if I'm on an island, as long as there's an ikurriña flying over it. From the looks of things, there are others on the island, and none of us EVER have advocated anything other than understanding Basques and their culture.

It is the infectious need of some to dwell on the negative, extreme minority which allows the parasitic terrorists to slowly eat away at the collective Spanish consciousness, doing more damage via paranoia, misinformation and fear than they ever could hope to accomplish via car bombs.

Fernando & toddy, please no more school days tales of deprogrammed Sabino Youth fledging...er...fleeing Euskadi into your warm, liberating embrace. Do you think that the ikastolas have some brownshirt youth movement? I didn't know there was a Fox News España...

Toddy, your sarcasm is not appreciated.
I can respect those with opinions different than my own. Yet, I refuse to accept or respect stereotypical, unfounded, and disrespectful view such as those which you have put forth in this thread.

CaliBasco,

FYI,

Fox News España, has for several years been known simply as Antena 3.

This thread has sure degenerated. Just thought I might bypass the pointless bickering and bring up something I find interesting. Apparently the president of Navarra wants to outlaw the ikurrina. It's one thing to be a fascist (as you must be to be in the Partido Popular) but this shows a blatant disregard for human life. There will be so much violence if this passes. I for one, will certainly not be hanging around autobuses, the ayuntamiento, or the guardia civil building for a while if this ikurrina ban goes through because I don't fancy being blown up by ETA shrapnel. This subject is very worrisome to me, and I think most would agree with me that there will be bloodshed if this ridiculous ban is put into place. Does anyone have any more info on this? My motivation for posting this is to find out anything about this I can, so if you know anything, let me know. Thanks,

Emilyka

I hang around the Guardia Civil building all the time! They're cool cats! With cool hats!

Emily, I'd be more worried about hanging around in the States these days.

Aster there you go again with your anti-American swings. Sorry, but this time I won't sink to that uneducated eurocentric level.

However, another interesting post"(as you must be to be in the Partido Popular)" Hmmm......so I guess the vast majority of Spaniards WHO SUPPORTED THE PP are ....are... are....no I can't even say it. But I will say the I LOVE PP I think Aznar and his party have largely brought Spain into the first world quickly. This has been an incredible feat.

Oh, I almost forgot, do the local businesses in the Basque country still have to give a " one arm behind back tax to eta?"

Asterault-

Hmm, interesting post. Normally I would not have a probelem with hanging around the aforementioned places. However, if the ikurrina is banned in Navarra these will become prime targets for bombings and other bloody displays of "nationalism". While you may be more concerned about hanging around the states, I live in rural Texas and remember, the war on terror is not the only thing that's going on the world. Not to be ragging on you too much, but were the Guardia Civil cool cats even when they provided the military force for Franco to rise to power?

First - I am off the subject :o - so jump ahead if you choose.

For quite a while now (2+ years) everyone participating on this board has gotten along. There is a give and take of opinions - always with respect for the individual. Humour has always had it's place as has good natured teasing. Lately, we seem to have sunk to pretty sorry depths. To resolve that, perhaps the motto "if you can't play by the rules - don't play" should apply !!!

MM, if I'm speaking out of turn, I apologize - There are a lot of us that really appreciate and love what you have created with this board - and I get mad when a specific person (or persons) abuse us all.

Puna (who, if she were in Spain might not be so blunt, nasty, and b*chy

I don't know if I'm one of those persons Puna, but if I am I am truly sorry:(

My intention on this thread is that this issue should be taken more seriously and, up till now, has not. I agree with Aznar in banning the party. I think this should have been done a long time ago and it's sad that it has taken so many deaths to get to this point. There are many other simple and complicated issues related to eta and the Basque culture. I think most Basque people are fine, if fact my daughter was conceived in San Sebastian. (he he he)

Oh, one last thing Puna, the world (especially Spain and the US in my opinion) should talk more through their conflicts...even if it gets a little heated cause we can always cool down at the end of the day as amigos with glass of great Spanish wine and a bottle of a great American microbrew
Salud y cheers!

You people need to lighten up, eh? The symbol would mean sarcasm.

Also, please read

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

>>>Troll Characteristics

- a lack of buy-in to the list philosophy or values
- generally low level of activity, with sudden spurts of interaction - or perhaps a new persona that has strong opinions on controversial subjects
- a confusing mixture of friendly posts with a confrontational style of interaction
- the use of provocative language and sweeping generalisations about certain topics or categories of people
- a lack of in-depth understanding of the topic
- a lack of personal information
- a lack of a genuinely unique perspective on the topic
- a lack of humour
- will insist on having done no wrong, regardless of its actions
- restarting topics that have already been done
- use of language that encourages the dialogue to enter topics that are controversial and likely to upset some team members
- the use of attention-seeking gimmick (e.g.: "I was once exploited by an XYZ", "My life is so difficult")
- they follow up their own articles if the group doesn't respond to their posts

Let me just get this out of the way first . Good insight into web personae Asterault.

I asked a Guardia Civil cat about his hat in May (two really ancient-looking GCs) since I'd heard that the flat back was symbolic of their willingness to fight on behalf of the fascis...er...motherland even with their backs to the wall. The old man chuckled and said, "it's just comfortable". There's always a chasm between truth and legend...I'll take legend anyday, and I still think they're cool.

Emilyka: PP=fachas is not an uncommon belief, and not one based in fantasy either...oddly enough, the PP is known by many to be the true fusion of church and state. Those who remember what the Falange was all about know that this is simply "deja vu all over again." Ahh, the sweet images of Franco building a basilica on the forced labor of POWs. *sniff* *sniff*...hey, is that the "Siglo de Oro" I smell?!

toddy: That was some majority in 2000. Wow, the "vast majority" of Spaniards, all 46.6% of them, voted PP in the election of diputados and a whopping 44.6% wanted PP senators. If that's not a mandate from the masses, I don't know what is.

Sincerely,
George W. Bush

Spain\'s Election Results

Nothing like a little more Don Quixote mythology.

We need a little more Pancho here ie. It's a windmill it's a windmill not an army Don!

Killing/Insulting the messenger does nothing to help your points. I know the truth hurts but let's stay on topic. Por favor address my arguments in a mature intelligent way(if you can).

"Emilyka: PP=fachas is not an uncommon belief, and not one based in fantasy either...oddly enough, the PP is known by many to be the true fusion of church and state."

Hmmmmm, so the ruling majority party in Spain is hmmmmmm....wait, let me think, over 40% of Spaniards like......ouch:(

I TOTALLY DISAGREE. Aznar has opposed the church on some issues and was clearly elected in a democratic state by the great people of Spain!
I think the whole world should support him in the difficult fight against the eta cowards. España will PREVAIL!!!!

Hmmm,

In looking at these posts there seems to be one glaring truth. There are very few of us here who have actually studied spanish history or basque history for that matter (with the exception of calibasco). It would appear that most people just assumed the position of whatever their best spanish buddies thought, or they interpreted events in whichever way they felt appropriate. I am no expert, although I am well enough versed on the subject to know that there are no clear cut good guys or bad guys. It would make as much sense as saying "Israel=good, Palestine=bad." If we venture to discuss these matters perhaps it would behoove us to hit the history books before we hit the keyboards...just an idea

Just wanted to clarify that I am not accusing any one person of anything, nor was I saying that Calibasco was the only one who knew anything about history, he was just the only one who specifically came to mind. Not trying to piss on anyone's post toasties here.

Emilyka,
I'm scolding myself for jumping into this hot topic but my curiosity is stirred. What is the reason for the push by the President of Navarra to outlaw the Ikurrina (Basque Flag)? Is the Ikurrina a symbol of ETA? Wht do people in Spain think of the Ikurrina? If someone flies it are they thought to be sympathetic/supportive of ETA?
Just wondering......
I'll go back in my hole and take cover!
Lagun

Hi Lagun (why can't we all just be lagunak on this thread ?)-

The Basque flag was created by Agirre, the man who pretty much singlehandedly created Basque nationalism. He is responsible for a lot of the historical inaccuracy and exaggeration that goes along with hardcore basque nationalism today. He also created the word "euskadi" and also made up basque names to correspond to latin ones, like "miren" for maria and many others. Back to your topic, the ikurrina is the flag of the Basque Country. It is also a symbol of sympathy for basque nationalists. To wear or display it usually means that one supports independence for the Basque country, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. It can just mean that you like the Basque country, or you feel sympathy for them because you think that the government gives them a raw deal. Navarra is just as Basque as the Basque country (euskera originated in the roncal valley in Navarra)and many navarros would like to see navarra united with an independent basque country. Navarra is not part of the Basque Country, but is part of Euskal Herria, which is a philosophical idea and not a political entity. It is one of the 7 provinces that make up "zazpiak bat" which includes: Alava, Guipuzcua, Vizcaya, Navarra, Basse-Navarre, Lapurdi, and Zuberoa. Conservative navarros would prefer for Navarra to be Spanish and not Basque in any way. Yolanda Barcina, the alcaldesa of Pamplona was pushing a while back to strip Euskera of it's official language status (spanish and euskera are navarra's official languages). Wow, I have certainly been verbose.

Emilyka

Great post em,
To further understand Basque nationalism we must delve into Franco's regime. Suppresion of the "Basques" (as well as other ethnic and lingual groups) helped to create a post Franco political/cultural identity crisis.

However, many groups in Spain from Galacia to the Canary Islands could claim themselves independent. So this leads us to the basic question. Should any part of Spain be allowed to become independent? Spain, as a modern democratic nation state, should NOT allow ANY person or group to follow this path:by words, symbols, political parties, schools, and of course terrorism. Yes, it is sad that the Basque language and culture have been vehicles by which people have used to create terror throughout the beautiful Basque country!

Emily,

For openers, Agguire did not create the Ikkurina.
The Ikurrina was created in 1894 by Sabino Arana-Goiri, who founded the PNV Basque National party in July of 1895. Initially, ikurrina was created for Biscayne only, but it soon represented the whole Basque country. It was legalized in 1936 when the autonomous Basque Country came into existence. The name itself comes from two words in Euskara. Ikur which translates into "symbol," and ehun which is translated into "cloth." It was also Arana-Goiri who coined the name "Euzkadi" to represent the whole of Basque Country. Arana-Goiri died in 1903, but is still considered by most as the founder of the Basque movement to gain the independence that was granted to them centuries earlier, and confirmed through additional treaties and agreements. As for whether or not the Ikurrina is the "official flag," it is, simply because it's been accepted, and is even part of the culture of the three Basque provinces in France as well as Spain.

As for Navarre, they had long since thrown away their Basque roots. They were Carlists (monarchists), and opposed to the revolution in 1931, that made Spain a republic. They supported King Alphonso XIII, who in turn supported the dictatorial state of Miguel Primo de Rivera, who made Franco look like a choir-boy. In fact, when the revolution of 1936 took place, Navarre sided with Franco - supporting him with the thought that Alphonso would return to the throne. It didn't matter to them that they were siding with Nazi Germany, Mussolini's fascist government in Italy, and Franco, who himself, was a fascist. They raised an army which fought alongside Mussolini's black-shirts, and under the cover of the Nazi air force, as they fought to destroy the people and the culture of the three provinces that comprise Basque Country. They were ruthless. They hardly had the right to claim they represent Basques then, or now.

As for the language, Euskara, it dates back to centuries before Spanish began to take form. In fact it's probably the oldest spoken language that exists today.

As for "outlawing the Ikurrina, and Euskara," Navarre has no business pushing the issue. Their motives have always been less than honorable, and anyone who's opposed to fascism has to take a dim view of what their intent really is. If they want to seperate themselves further from the three provinces of "Basque Country," rest assured nobody in the region would really give a damn. Of course, the problem still remains, how do you convince your own people (in Navarre) that you have the right to destroy their heritage, their beliefs, and their right to political views that may not coincide with yours?

Franco made it a crime to fly the Ikurrina, or to speak Euskara. Still, they lived on, as a protest to the tyrannical treatment of the Basques, and others, whose agendas didn't agree with Franco's.

The theory that the Ikurrina & Euskara are akin to being a supporter of ETA is so absurd that it defies belief. It was used as a ploy by the Fascists supporting Franco to convince people that being Basque was bad. If he had his way, he would have ordered genocide for the Basques.

I'm sorry, but I think we have to tell both sides of the story before we go off half cocked, with ideas that don't represent the facts.

Viva Ikurrina! Viva Euskara! May they ever stay, as a reminder that not all people will willing submit to fascist, nazi, or dictatorial rule, no matter what the odds are against them.

Wolf (Who is not an ETA supporter but is a supporter of Basque Country, and the wonderful people he knows there. May they always be my friends.)

These threads are always fun. Ahh, Sabino Arana, the half-educated, racist, eugenicist, linguistically inept son of a frustrated Carlist. A man who never had to do an honest day's work in his life, which gave him the lesiure time to come up with half-baked and since discredited theories on everything from racial purity to the Basque language. He is less the symbol of Basque nationalism than concrete proof of why having an idle rich class is a bad idea.

Seriously, I am as aware of anyone as to the history of the Basque people and their relationship with the rest of Spain, but it's hard to take seriously a philosophy founded by one of the biggest nutcases in Spanish history. I know he was a product of his time, and racist and eugenicist ideas had currency all over the world at the beginning of this century, but most of those movements have been discredited over time, or at least their founders have been scrutinized.

At any rate, considering Navarra as part of the greater Basque country is historically accurate, but, let's face it, the majority of the people living there are about as Basque as George Bush. Hell, even in the Basque contry, the whole definition of who counts as Basque is a thorn in the side of the different political groups involved.

I am also way whenever accusations of fascism are thrown around, not because there weren't and aren't fascists in Spain, but because its sometimes just laziness to paint everyone with that same brush. Navarra was historically a strongpoint of Carlism, which, while traditionalist and reactionary, long predates fascism. In fact, Carlism was also very strong in the Basque country, and most serious researchers agree that the Basque Nationalist movment emerged at least in part out of the Carlist movements.

Cooter,

What you said about Sabino Arana is true. Yet, he was the one who started the PNV, and designed the flag. Nobody said he was a Rhodes scholar. It was a question of accuracy as to origins, not offered as putting him up on a pedestal, or canonizing him. Even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a while.

As for the Fascists, I indicated that the Navarra was Carlist. I said they fought beside the Italian Fascists, with the Nazi warplanes overhead, on the same side. I did not say Navarre was a hotbed of Fascism.

Now, Franco is another story. He was a Fascist.

I agree with you on the dilution of ethnic background, especially in Navarre. Bush would be able to call himself Basque long before a vast segment of the population there could.

Wolf

If the messenger is dead, how come he's still posting...ja ja...thank you, I'll be here all week...don't forget to tip your waitresses.

Wolf, good to have you back old friend. I knew you were out there lurking. Isn't it interesting that we've both been through this no fewer than three times since landing on this board "years" ago? The names have changed but the song remains the same.

In emilyka's defense, I don't think she said that sporting an ikurriña means you belong to ETA, but that they could be a subset of ikurriña-wavers.

Oddly enough, I'll be spending two of the next three weekends waving ikurriñas that are always brought out after the US flag at our functions. Those of you in attendance on Sept. 1 will hear the US national anthem played before any of those nationalistic bus songs mentioned earlier.

My point is that true Basques respect and even venerate those that understand them and allow them to be Basque. That is the way we've always been. When oppression and repression are the M.O., people anywhere fight back. Some of Carlos V's greatest allies were the Basque people, because, as Wolf alluded to, they were allowed to be Basque...part of Spain...but the Basque part of Spain.

There are nuts everywhere. Heck, there's one at my computer right now. I personally consider the cause of ETA to be an exercise in futility. As I've mentioned before, I understand where they're coming from. (Please note, understand and sympathize are two completely unrelated concepts.) I don't approve of ETA's mode d'emploi, nor do I approve of the Spanish government's disregard of the long-standing (longer-standing than any of the current political parties or ideologies) fueros that are more a part of Spanish-Basque relations than anything else.

Unfortunately, this, like any other hot-button issue, is like an onion. You keep peeling back more layers and they all make you wanna "cry".

CaliBasco [Who will be going bowling with Wolf as soon as he can get a flight into Wisconsin]

Actually, to move this thread in another direction (I will mention the word, uh what was it about... Basques. Yes, Basque food is good. That should appease the netiquette nanny ) to bring up an interesting topic about Franco which kind of piqued my interests.

Franco, someone illustrated to me the other day, was not especially a fascist in the true sense, although the word police state is still accurate. The inclusion of religion in the Falange state was a distinctly un-fascist characteristic. In Germany and Italy, religion was discarded in lieu of allegiance to the party, leader, and state. In Spain there was a distinct linkage with the church, in particular Opus Dei.

So anyway, that's pretty interesting, at least I found it to be. Lest anyone get a hair up their ass, don't even think of accusing me of sympathising with the Falange. I vote heartily IU.

Tawk amongst yourselves... discuss.

Wolfie how was the Gobbler?

GREAT POSTS!!!!
Wolf, your historical knowledge of Spain is incredible. Aster too, I'm very impressed! I think this topic CANNOT be discussed enough (so please don't close it señor madrid) Right now I'm reading a biography on Franco and I think police state might be a more appropriate term(even though no one can be boxed into a term)given Spain's rich regional areas and peoples and several other factors.
Consequently, understanding the history is a first important step, but only a first. In order to iradicate nationalistic terrorism, hard choices must be made. This could lead us in a philosophical direction. Should a culture be controlled for a period of time to combat the interests of the many; especially if that culture has been used to terrorize? Utilitarianism....hmmmm, let's ponder.....

Asterault,

The Gobbler. Gawd! Breakfast! Unbelievably bad! It must have been left over from around 1970, on a warming tray -

Needless to say, I won't go back there. I may even avert my eyes when I drive past it next time. It sure doesn't compare to Basque cooking, which is superb (A save - Spanish talk - ). In fact, when you brought it up, I thought about a great breakfast or brunch we had in Bilbao. It was complete with about six different meats, four breads, pastries, eggs, and an unbelievably great home made Sevillan orange marmelade. We were given some of the marmelade to take home, and we still have one jar left. I have to go back and get more. Six jars just doesn't make it long enough -

Oh! Before I forget! It was an interesting "love/hate" relationship between the Catholic Church and Franco. I'm still trying to unravel that one.

Wolf

Hmmm...Franco and Fascism, eh? Some would argue that Franco was never a fascist, but rather a shrewd pragmatist who would utilize whatever ideology was convenient. Witness that while Jose Antonio (a real fascist's fascist, by Gawd!) was idolized as a martyr in Franco's Spain, the rest of the falangist leadership was never given much power. Hedilla was jailed and disgraced, and even Serrano Suñer, who was increasingly pro-fascist, was put out to pasture once it became clear that the Axis was not going to win the war.

While the Carlists were less of a threat to Franco than the falange could have been, Franco effectively neutralized their leadership as well. Let's not even mention the traditional Catholic politicians, like Gil Robles, who had zero influence on Franco and were often exiled from Spain themselves.

Oh yeah...Basque cooking, delicious. In San Sebastian (or Donostia, if you'd rather), I had the best chipirrones in the world. I'm going back in a month, and am going to eat pintxos until I fall down.

Come on guys, let's get to some solution posts.

"HISTORIANS, SOCIOLOGISTS, AND POLITICAL SCIENTISTS LEND ME YOUR POSTS!"

As for the ikurriña in Navarra: The ikurriña is the official and legal flag for the Comunidad Autónoma del País Vasco (autonomous community of the Basque Country), while the Comunidad Foral de Navarra has its own official flag.

In some councils of Navarra Batasuna, the political arm of ETA, governs. In those councils the spanish flag is not present, nor the Navarra's one, which is ilegal by the spanish laws. The autonomous government of Navarra proposed to make a law to force those councils to show at least the Navarra's flag, not showing the ikurriña (which is, in fact, the official flag of other autonomous community).

The problem here is when a respected symbol as the ikurriña is used by radicals and extremists to make things ofensive to other ones (this case the navarros).

As for "Euskal Herria" is a term forged by the ultranationalists of the Basque Country to refer an hypothetical Great Basque Country that would include Navarra (in which the nationalist political parties obtain less than the 10% of the votes) and the french Department of the Occidental Pyrenees (in which the nationalist parties obtain almost no representation).

The "respected" Sabino Arana was racist even when he distinguished between the basque vizcainos and the rest of the basques (which for him were lazy, awful, bad looking and not pure vizacainos).

The same as with the III Reich but in miniature...

Fernando

"The problem here is when a respected symbol as the ikurriña is used by radicals and extremists to make things ofensive to other ones (this case the navarros)."

Great point Fernando....tough decisions have to made was my point. It would be great if the Basques made them on their own. However, fear, I think, is too great in many areas. In my opinion, all of Spain should stand behind the Basques in these tough decisions in the short term and in the long term the Basque culture will again not be feared and it will remain in status right along with all of the other great regional cultures of Spain.

I SIT corrected, lizziee... :o ...And I'm the one who's always telling my Spanish buddies a bout the dangers of making sweeping generalizations. Though I still do feel like the the comment is applicable to a significant percentage of news agencies...you're right. I shouldn't lump you all together.

As for the rest of the myriad of posts on this issue...'now issue(s)' , I've enjoyed reading them immensely. Thanks for making me think, even while on vacation! :p

I didn't want to take issue with it, but I don't believe the news media "educates the world." They may keep them informed, but I'm afraid it's a reach to say their offers are akin to education.

In just about every nation, including Spain, which has left & right wing newspapers, facts are distorted to meet the publisher or political points of view, or to offer sensationalism to draw readership. If that's what journalism is really about, I certainly wouldn't want anyone to get the impression it's "educational."

Wolf (Who believes you can't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see.)

Wolf, let me add one other point to your comments on education by the press - the pressure on the media for the advertising dollar is real and can not but help influence the tone of the media and the news coverage supplied.
I know none of us like to admit to it (freedom of the press, etc.) - but right along with the political points Wolf cited is the economic one.
Sad but true ....

Not that sad though, in a capitalist democracy one most only join together with others to find the truth. The power of the purse, or the weakness of the status quo. Hmmmm, back to philosophy. Let's get back to some solutions......ready....set......BRAINSTORM!!!!!!