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#62553 - 08/14/02 11:24 AM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Nothing like a little more Don Quixote mythology.

We need a little more Pancho here ie. It's a windmill it's a windmill not an army Don! smile

Killing/Insulting the messenger does nothing to help your points. I know the truth hurts but let's stay on topic. Por favor address my arguments in a mature intelligent way(if you can).

"Emilyka: PP=fachas is not an uncommon belief, and not one based in fantasy either...oddly enough, the PP is known by many to be the true fusion of church and state."

Hmmmmm, so the ruling majority party in Spain is hmmmmmm....wait, let me think, over 40% of Spaniards like......ouch:(

I TOTALLY DISAGREE. Aznar has opposed the church on some issues and was clearly elected in a democratic state by the great people of Spain!
I think the whole world should support him in the difficult fight against the eta cowards. España will PREVAIL!!!!

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#62554 - 08/14/02 12:28 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
emilyka Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 34
Loc: Pamplona
Hmmm,

In looking at these posts there seems to be one glaring truth. There are very few of us here who have actually studied spanish history or basque history for that matter (with the exception of calibasco). It would appear that most people just assumed the position of whatever their best spanish buddies thought, or they interpreted events in whichever way they felt appropriate. I am no expert, although I am well enough versed on the subject to know that there are no clear cut good guys or bad guys. It would make as much sense as saying "Israel=good, Palestine=bad." If we venture to discuss these matters perhaps it would behoove us to hit the history books before we hit the keyboards...just an idea

Just wanted to clarify that I am not accusing any one person of anything, nor was I saying that Calibasco was the only one who knew anything about history, he was just the only one who specifically came to mind. Not trying to piss on anyone's post toasties here.

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#62555 - 08/14/02 03:39 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
Lagun Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/27/01
Posts: 13
Loc: Arizona
Emilyka,
I'm scolding myself for jumping into this hot topic but my curiosity is stirred. What is the reason for the push by the President of Navarra to outlaw the Ikurrina (Basque Flag)? Is the Ikurrina a symbol of ETA? Wht do people in Spain think of the Ikurrina? If someone flies it are they thought to be sympathetic/supportive of ETA?
Just wondering......
I'll go back in my hole and take cover!
Lagun

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#62556 - 08/14/02 04:30 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
emilyka Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 34
Loc: Pamplona
Hi Lagun (why can't we all just be lagunak on this thread wink ?)-

The Basque flag was created by Agirre, the man who pretty much singlehandedly created Basque nationalism. He is responsible for a lot of the historical inaccuracy and exaggeration that goes along with hardcore basque nationalism today. He also created the word "euskadi" and also made up basque names to correspond to latin ones, like "miren" for maria and many others. Back to your topic, the ikurrina is the flag of the Basque Country. It is also a symbol of sympathy for basque nationalists. To wear or display it usually means that one supports independence for the Basque country, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. It can just mean that you like the Basque country, or you feel sympathy for them because you think that the government gives them a raw deal. Navarra is just as Basque as the Basque country (euskera originated in the roncal valley in Navarra)and many navarros would like to see navarra united with an independent basque country. Navarra is not part of the Basque Country, but is part of Euskal Herria, which is a philosophical idea and not a political entity. It is one of the 7 provinces that make up "zazpiak bat" which includes: Alava, Guipuzcua, Vizcaya, Navarra, Basse-Navarre, Lapurdi, and Zuberoa. Conservative navarros would prefer for Navarra to be Spanish and not Basque in any way. Yolanda Barcina, the alcaldesa of Pamplona was pushing a while back to strip Euskera of it's official language status (spanish and euskera are navarra's official languages). Wow, I have certainly been verbose.

Emilyka

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#62557 - 08/15/02 12:03 AM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Great post em,
To further understand Basque nationalism we must delve into Franco's regime. Suppresion of the "Basques" (as well as other ethnic and lingual groups) helped to create a post Franco political/cultural identity crisis.

However, many groups in Spain from Galacia to the Canary Islands could claim themselves independent. So this leads us to the basic question. Should any part of Spain be allowed to become independent? Spain, as a modern democratic nation state, should NOT allow ANY person or group to follow this path:by words, symbols, political parties, schools, and of course terrorism. Yes, it is sad that the Basque language and culture have been vehicles by which people have used to create terror throughout the beautiful Basque country!

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#62558 - 08/15/02 08:12 AM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1245
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Emily,

For openers, Agguire did not create the Ikkurina.
The Ikurrina was created in 1894 by Sabino Arana-Goiri, who founded the PNV Basque National party in July of 1895. Initially, ikurrina was created for Biscayne only, but it soon represented the whole Basque country. It was legalized in 1936 when the autonomous Basque Country came into existence. The name itself comes from two words in Euskara. Ikur which translates into "symbol," and ehun which is translated into "cloth." It was also Arana-Goiri who coined the name "Euzkadi" to represent the whole of Basque Country. Arana-Goiri died in 1903, but is still considered by most as the founder of the Basque movement to gain the independence that was granted to them centuries earlier, and confirmed through additional treaties and agreements. As for whether or not the Ikurrina is the "official flag," it is, simply because it's been accepted, and is even part of the culture of the three Basque provinces in France as well as Spain.

As for Navarre, they had long since thrown away their Basque roots. They were Carlists (monarchists), and opposed to the revolution in 1931, that made Spain a republic. They supported King Alphonso XIII, who in turn supported the dictatorial state of Miguel Primo de Rivera, who made Franco look like a choir-boy. In fact, when the revolution of 1936 took place, Navarre sided with Franco - supporting him with the thought that Alphonso would return to the throne. It didn't matter to them that they were siding with Nazi Germany, Mussolini's fascist government in Italy, and Franco, who himself, was a fascist. They raised an army which fought alongside Mussolini's black-shirts, and under the cover of the Nazi air force, as they fought to destroy the people and the culture of the three provinces that comprise Basque Country. They were ruthless. They hardly had the right to claim they represent Basques then, or now.

As for the language, Euskara, it dates back to centuries before Spanish began to take form. In fact it's probably the oldest spoken language that exists today.

As for "outlawing the Ikurrina, and Euskara," Navarre has no business pushing the issue. Their motives have always been less than honorable, and anyone who's opposed to fascism has to take a dim view of what their intent really is. If they want to seperate themselves further from the three provinces of "Basque Country," rest assured nobody in the region would really give a damn. Of course, the problem still remains, how do you convince your own people (in Navarre) that you have the right to destroy their heritage, their beliefs, and their right to political views that may not coincide with yours?

Franco made it a crime to fly the Ikurrina, or to speak Euskara. Still, they lived on, as a protest to the tyrannical treatment of the Basques, and others, whose agendas didn't agree with Franco's.

The theory that the Ikurrina & Euskara are akin to being a supporter of ETA is so absurd that it defies belief. It was used as a ploy by the Fascists supporting Franco to convince people that being Basque was bad. If he had his way, he would have ordered genocide for the Basques.

I'm sorry, but I think we have to tell both sides of the story before we go off half cocked, with ideas that don't represent the facts.

Viva Ikurrina! Viva Euskara! May they ever stay, as a reminder that not all people will willing submit to fascist, nazi, or dictatorial rule, no matter what the odds are against them.

Wolf (Who is not an ETA supporter but is a supporter of Basque Country, and the wonderful people he knows there. May they always be my friends.)

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#62559 - 08/15/02 11:35 AM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
Cooter Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/02
Posts: 86
Loc: Boston, MA USA
These threads are always fun. Ahh, Sabino Arana, the half-educated, racist, eugenicist, linguistically inept son of a frustrated Carlist. A man who never had to do an honest day's work in his life, which gave him the lesiure time to come up with half-baked and since discredited theories on everything from racial purity to the Basque language. He is less the symbol of Basque nationalism than concrete proof of why having an idle rich class is a bad idea.

Seriously, I am as aware of anyone as to the history of the Basque people and their relationship with the rest of Spain, but it's hard to take seriously a philosophy founded by one of the biggest nutcases in Spanish history. I know he was a product of his time, and racist and eugenicist ideas had currency all over the world at the beginning of this century, but most of those movements have been discredited over time, or at least their founders have been scrutinized.

At any rate, considering Navarra as part of the greater Basque country is historically accurate, but, let's face it, the majority of the people living there are about as Basque as George Bush. Hell, even in the Basque contry, the whole definition of who counts as Basque is a thorn in the side of the different political groups involved.

I am also way whenever accusations of fascism are thrown around, not because there weren't and aren't fascists in Spain, but because its sometimes just laziness to paint everyone with that same brush. Navarra was historically a strongpoint of Carlism, which, while traditionalist and reactionary, long predates fascism. In fact, Carlism was also very strong in the Basque country, and most serious researchers agree that the Basque Nationalist movment emerged at least in part out of the Carlist movements.

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#62560 - 08/15/02 12:32 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1245
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Cooter,

What you said about Sabino Arana is true. Yet, he was the one who started the PNV, and designed the flag. Nobody said he was a Rhodes scholar. It was a question of accuracy as to origins, not offered as putting him up on a pedestal, or canonizing him. Even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a while.

As for the Fascists, I indicated that the Navarra was Carlist. I said they fought beside the Italian Fascists, with the Nazi warplanes overhead, on the same side. I did not say Navarre was a hotbed of Fascism.

Now, Franco is another story. He was a Fascist.

I agree with you on the dilution of ethnic background, especially in Navarre. Bush would be able to call himself Basque long before a vast segment of the population there could.

Wolf

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#62561 - 08/15/02 12:51 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
CaliBasco Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 1530
Loc: Idaho
If the messenger is dead, how come he's still posting...ja ja...thank you, I'll be here all week...don't forget to tip your waitresses.

Wolf, good to have you back old friend. I knew you were out there lurking. Isn't it interesting that we've both been through this no fewer than three times since landing on this board "years" ago? The names have changed but the song remains the same.

In emilyka's defense, I don't think she said that sporting an ikurriña means you belong to ETA, but that they could be a subset of ikurriña-wavers.

Oddly enough, I'll be spending two of the next three weekends waving ikurriñas that are always brought out after the US flag at our functions. Those of you in attendance on Sept. 1 will hear the US national anthem played before any of those nationalistic bus songs mentioned earlier.

My point is that true Basques respect and even venerate those that understand them and allow them to be Basque. That is the way we've always been. When oppression and repression are the M.O., people anywhere fight back. Some of Carlos V's greatest allies were the Basque people, because, as Wolf alluded to, they were allowed to be Basque...part of Spain...but the Basque part of Spain.

There are nuts everywhere. Heck, there's one at my computer right now. I personally consider the cause of ETA to be an exercise in futility. As I've mentioned before, I understand where they're coming from. (Please note, understand and sympathize are two completely unrelated concepts.) I don't approve of ETA's mode d'emploi, nor do I approve of the Spanish government's disregard of the long-standing (longer-standing than any of the current political parties or ideologies) fueros that are more a part of Spanish-Basque relations than anything else.

Unfortunately, this, like any other hot-button issue, is like an onion. You keep peeling back more layers and they all make you wanna "cry".

CaliBasco [Who will be going bowling with Wolf as soon as he can get a flight into Wisconsin]
_________________________
Ongi etorri!

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#62562 - 08/15/02 03:06 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
Asterault Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/01
Posts: 560
Loc: Gijón
Actually, to move this thread in another direction (I will mention the word, uh what was it about... Basques. Yes, Basque food is good. That should appease the netiquette nanny laugh ) to bring up an interesting topic about Franco which kind of piqued my interests.

Franco, someone illustrated to me the other day, was not especially a fascist in the true sense, although the word police state is still accurate. The inclusion of religion in the Falange state was a distinctly un-fascist characteristic. In Germany and Italy, religion was discarded in lieu of allegiance to the party, leader, and state. In Spain there was a distinct linkage with the church, in particular Opus Dei.

So anyway, that's pretty interesting, at least I found it to be. Lest anyone get a hair up their ass, don't even think of accusing me of sympathising with the Falange. I vote heartily IU. laugh

Tawk amongst yourselves... discuss.

Wolfie how was the Gobbler?

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