I believe that the NAACP should be involved. This gentleman was attacked and beaten brutally. This is a case of excessive force by the police. It seems to me that in many of the postings people are more concerned with preserving their nationality than concerning themselves with the brutal act that was inflicted on this individual. I believe that pressure must be applied on all fronts(US embassy, State Dept, or any any organization championing human rights). Look at history. What if the US did not participate in WWII? The jews and others would have been eliminated. Martin luther king said that "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everwhere". Plato in the "republic" says that in order to have a just society we must find justice within ourselves. I have been to Spain twice(98 and 99). There are black americans wanting to study abroad in spain. I am seriously considering a program in oviedo, Spain and though I have not had any problems in Spain I am concerned. Spain has to realize that it is dependent on tourism and if the treatment of this continues people will either boycott or stay away. I personally hope this does not happen. Let us not forget that in Italy a few months ago an Italian was killed by the italian police in an anti- globalization demonstration. They killed one of their own people. So for those of you who might be unconcerned because you are not black, this can also happen to a white person. Where does it end?

CaliBasco sums the entire discussion up perfectly - the N in NAACP stands for national - i.e., not international.
If a foreign organization equivilant to the NAACP started to interfer in a US situation - I bet my last dollar and/or euro that a bunch of people would be screaming mad. When logic ceases to work (we all know where I stand on this issue) there's an old truism that goes "treat others as you would like to be treated" - so before advocating involvement in a foreign country's affairs by an unofficial and national organization - put the shoe on the other foot folks - do you really want to walk like that?

BTW - Chica - loved your thoughts about creating individual organizations - I'll go for NAFRWLS (national association of french/russian women who love spain). Getting tacky here????

Puna (who is getting so aggrivated that her english is turning into trite but appropriate (I think) adages.)

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: Puna ]

Puna and others who agree with her. If your reasoning is right, then greenpeace should not be involved in environmental affairs around the world and the WWf should not be in volved with preserving certain animals around the world. The NAACP brings issues to the forefront that deal with blacks and other peoples of color. If they had not been involved in the boycott of South Africa many years ago that system would not have fallen. The boycott had such a huge impact that even musicians did not perform in that country for a long time. I have a question for you Puna. Is spain a democracy? should it not allow critiques from others? you seem to sound like a fascist since you don't want any criticism from one person or one group. Who cares if the N stands for national. This technicality is so ridiculous. European countries have made their feelings known on the death penalty in the U.S. They will not exradite anyone who faces the death penalty here. Please don't get nationalistic and examine the rights of the individual in a democracy. This is why the NAACP should be involved in some role in this because of some of the attitudes expressed here. Get used to it because there will be more pressure from the west on these issues. The E.U. will have to come to terms with these issues if it is to remain competitive in this global market.

Matador, was that your mind closing? Spain IS a democracy, but we are not the son that America has to bring up, perhaps the small brother to care of and that in the future may be your best friend.

Our justice has nothing to learn from US one, perhaps more efficiency, perhaps more hard dealing with terrorists, but definetely nothing to learn in how to deal with potentialy racist crimes.

Yes, americans, american organizations, and the american government through its embassy can express their opinions on the issue. The US embassy may even protest, and you may call for a boicot to Spain, it is your right. But you don't have any right to put pressure to a judge whoever is the victim and whoever are the guilts.

You know what? This matter has passed without notice for the press. The public opinion knows nothing of it, and a protest of the NACPP (an organization of which I first heard of it in this thread)will pass unnoticed, since it is virtually unknown here.

We normally don't have any racism problems here because we have yet no many inmigrants. People are get used to see blacks, moroccians and southamericans. The first times is shocking to see people different, but is something that the time cures. When there is a racist motivated crime (as a ecuatorian killed by some security guards in a discotheque) it is magnified, the people in the streets say how horrible it is, and the judges deal with it properly, without the need of any intervention from forgein organizations, can you believe it?

It is as simple as Puna has put it: The USA is an incredible country, a superpower, probably the hardest-working country in the world. It has lots of things to admire. But it hasn't the universal justice, nor has any right to give lessons of fairness.

I know it is perhaps a bad example but: we have never have slaves here, nor all the crimes associated with the slavery issue, we haven't have a Ku Kux Klan, and hundreds of other embarrasing things. Not any single country is perfect, or has a clean history regarding the dealing of minorities, religious and social tolerance, and trying to extrapolate one's own country problems to another country is really really an error.

Let's the justice decide if there was a crime, and who is guilty of it.

Fernando

Matador,

Please! Don't try to speak for the U.S. If you want to speak for your personal feelings, as an African-American, that's fine. Many of us believe that the Spanish government will do the right thing. I hope that's what you want, and not a lynching of four Barcelona Policemen, because you've decided it's best for a specific cause.

On another issue, leave Greenpeace out of the mix. They themselves are terrorists. Their actions (spiking trees), has led to the death of hard working people in the northwestern U.S., and people died on the ship they sunk as well. God only knows how many deaths can be contributed to their actions, all in the name of the environment. In many ways, they're not much better than a low level terrorist organization themselves.

As far as "why people see the U.S." as the pushy big brother, it's when people want to take the law in their own hands, and tell other nations how they are going to "punish them" for their actions. I suggest that diplomacy is a better resolve for any issues.

Spain is a democracy. They aren't some flea bitten back world nation that's only law is at the end of a gun, or a sword. Let them conclude their work, and let the lawsuit that was filed against the Barcelona Police, etc., run its course.

Fernando,

Don't judge the U.S., and the people of the U.S., on the statements of an individual. Like any democracy, we all have the right to our opinions, just like you do.

Your defense of Spain is admirable, but to most of us, it isn't necessary. We know that justice will be served in the end.

But we also know that the American system, though flawed, is no better or no worse than the Spanish system, and insulting our ways, to defend yours isn't acceptable.

You mentioned slavery. Yes, it was wrong, and we had it here in America. But there was a time when the Spanish empire was supported by the slaves of far off lands, whose labors were strictly for the good of Spain. Whole nations were the slaves. But that isn't an issue any more than the KKK, or slavery in America, is it?

Wolf (Who hates mud slinging. Everyone just gets dirty.)

Just a little clarification on the terms of non-profit organizations for Matador...

Greenpeace is an INTERNATIONAL non-profit with its world headquarters in Amsterdam. Perhaps the idea was an "American born" one, but it has since grown to encompass environmental problems and concerns world wide.

WWF, which stands for WORLD Wildlife Federation is also an "American conceived" non-profit which expanded to international status with offices around the world.

Fernando:

¡Olé!

But, be careful...while America had slavery, as Wolf so succintly put it, it was the Dutch, French, Spanish, Portuguese and other Europeans, as well as African tribal leaders themselves that brought the slaves to the Americas and lived grandly off the profits. Think twice before you judge a country on it´s past history.

Spain may not have the Klu Klux Klan, but there is a certain neighborhood in Madrid that is fast gaining a reputation for its xenophobia and its "terrorizing" of the immigrants that live in the area. Where there is one, there is more...

Matador, I don´t think that Puna (or I because I share her same sentiments) are being nationalistic, but realistic. I am not concerned with preserving "my nationality" as I consider myself international (American from a multi-cultural background, extensive international travel and living outside the USA). What I am concerned with is other countries (whether it is the USA -- NAACP -- or Spain not complying with another countries legal system) interfering where they don´t have the jurisdiction. Period. If the NAACP wants to play in the international arena, then it needs to make itself internationally known.

Matador:

Rules and laws exist for reasons. Even if the "technicality" of them seem insignificant to you from your perspective.

I trust that the Spanish justice system will see a fair end to this very unfortunate incident. Just as I trust in the American legal system, as flawed as it may be, to serve it´s country fairly.

[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: Chica ]

Wolf and Chica: You missed my point. I was not trying to show how bad the US are, but trying just to show that it is not perfect. Whenever you feel you have the utmost right to give lessons about one issue, you should first stop and see if you are doing what you are requesting others to do.

Of course Spain has one of the worst histories all over the wolrd. We kicked jews, then we kicked muslims, and we lost their abilities. We harrased american indians, enslaved them, we created the Inquisition and we did big horrible things.

Its history doesn't make a country worse or better than others, but is a handicap you must learn to live with, and from which you may get the knowledge to build a better future. I don't know how sensitive the slavery and KKK issue is for americans, if I offended you I'm sorry, it was not my intention, but just trying to back a point of view.

We are not infants telling that our countries are the best, but adults trying to discuss about serious matters

By the way Wolf, I don't judge a whole country by the opinion of a group (God saves me of doing that). I have seen here the wide spectrum of opinions. I may agree or disagree with some or the others. As anywhere not everyone thinks akind, and we must respect it.

Also, don't judge my country for my opinions, not every spaniard thinks like me

Fernando

You are all missing the point. The Naacp should exert its influence with the state department. But it can still express its outrage with the spanish government. By the way many of my questions were rhetorical. Of course I know that spain is a democracy. Hopefully the courts will make the right decisions on these officers even though in a democracy unjust decisions can be made. In regards to greenpeace and the WWF, these organizations started out as grassroot organizations and then became international. This was precisely my point. I don't hate spain and as a matter of fact so many of my friends tell me I should move there because I talk about it so much. Who knows? maybe i'll meet a sexy spanish woman who might disagree with me and we'll get married. Any takers.

As an African-American male, I think it would be interesting to see how this turns out. I do believe that we must look at all sides of the story before passing judgement on anyone.

When I was in Spain, I was followed in many stores, but so were the white students that I studied with. Police would walk closely behind me. I didn't give it a second thought.

If I were to say something everytime Ithought someone did something to me because I was Black, I would never sleep. I am going to return to Spain next year and I am looking forward to it. If I truly feel that I am being discriminated against, I will say something in me defense.

In a nutshell, I do not represent all African-Americans, for this is just my point of view. I like to look at all sides of a story and investigate before coming to a conclusion.

sedredv, I am curious about what city you were in when this happened. The only run in I had with the cops was in Madrid. I was about to take a picture of the ejercito del aire building, when a plain clothes office came out of nowhere, flashed his badge in a nice manner and said "I'm sorry but you cannot take a picture of that building." I just figured that maybe it was due to the ETA threat in Spain. I have not had any experiences in any city in Spain where a shopkeeper was impolite or where I was followed. I'm not saying that your story isn't valid, but just that I have been lucky so far.