Cantabene,

You're absolutely right. Eisenhower visited Spain in December of 1959, on a good will tour that was 19 days long, and included 11 countries.

I'd forgotten about that tour... sorry!

ex-Prez Jimmy Carter was there in September/October of 1998. He was there for dialogue with the Spanish government and ETA, in attempt to advance the fragile cease fire that existed. At that time, my wife and I had the opportunity of touring the Guggenheim museum with him and his family.

Wolf (Who's human too... don't shoot an endangered species! )

I've never seen a single "gitano" who was starving, but I saw many with gold jewlery and BMWs and Mercedes.
Spain gives away food for the poor people and they have houses were poor people is fed for free. Plus, the church has so many programs to help poor people, children, drug addicts...
I enrolled a program in US where you can sponsor a child, they have children from South America, Africa and US, I didn't see any from Spain

Toddy:

Sorry for writing so late, I was out of town.

First, as far as I know we have a lower percentage of temporary jobs than most of the developed countries (including USA), besides, part-time work is practically unknown here, what is a nuisance.

Those agreements including subsidies, were negotiated when there was no plan on the table that more partners would join the EC, as we want them to join, but a veto minority may be easily formed, it will have to be negotiated again.

There are very few sectors where professionals need to go to the USA to be able to work, the most known is biologysts (my brother is one).Due to the demands of the students we have too many first class universities on Biology, Genetics, Microbiology, for our small Biochemical market. However, I am a M of Arts in Bussiness Adminstartion working in the Telecomunications industry, and I had the possibility both of getting work and Green Cards with little difficulty, but I didn't obtain much with the change, for life is 2 to 3 times as expensive and I would earn 2 to 3 times more. And I would be out. Not so many people need/want to go (from Spain).

Yes, many of the inmigrants, who come to Spain do the works we don't want to do - same as in any other country - but in soon they have documents - unlike other countries - only by finding a job and suscribimg to the Social Security system, and in 2 years they have a permanent permit , in 4 years if latinos, they can have nationality. Soon, many of them get better jobs or start small bussinesses.

As far as I know, what Brazil and Argentina did was a "reservation", they did not "buy" yet.

My plan for retirement was created about ten years ago, but there was another institution before, that my father was subscribed to, aged more than 20 years (maybe 30), so it is not new here. What I wanted to point out is that the age of population is not a problem for those countries where there are such plans.

Gitanos is the name of a race. One can not speak of what happens to a whole race like you do.

The very small percentage that are beggars or thieves are the kind of that never would attend a school, and they do not need anything to eat, they take it. Today my mom told me of a couple of them stealing in a shop. These kid's adults are in drugs traffic, so I am not surprised by what has been said of good cars and gold watches.

Giving free breakfast and lunch is a good idea, but it is only needed in countries or groups of population who can not make ends meet, they don't need it here. Nobody is hungry. And we help a lot of countries with food.

I don't know what a SUV is, but not even one in a thousand of the cars is made in America here. By the way how can you pretend that you have been to Spain? what you say evidences lack of knowledge of the country's situation.

What is the "Cinco de Mayo"? Is it supposed to have anything to do with Spain?

How many jobs are there for public teachers? There are very few positions for thousands of teachers. The US has taken in thousands of teachers from Spain because they couldn't find a full-time teaching position in a public school in Spain. Only one in a thousand cars may be American, but how many are Spanish?

The economic reality is Spain is still higher on the unemployment scale in comparison with most EU member states and with the US. It still relies heavily on foreign companies to provide work for its people.

But, my main point, is that both the US and Spain have first world problems. Maybe different problems, but not better or worse.
Raising anti-American sentiment will only hurt the Spanish economy as the largest investor outside the EU in Spain is the US.

I don't think that Spaniards should have to leave Spain to find work. More Spaniards leave Spain for other EU countries and the US to find full-time work than come into Spain from these countries to find full-time work. Spanish economists would agree that strengthening US/Spain ties would help Spain's economy.
I think that leaving the EU and joining the soon to be AFTA would really help Spain be a master of her destiny. No longer they would have to follow the dictates coming from France and Germany. I believe that because they are the mothers of the Spanish language and have a highly educated populace, they would be afforded an equal partnership with the US in this new agreement.
This, I understand, would be a new "worldview" for Spain and Spaniards.
But, through open minds, anything is possible! Viva los Amigos grandes Espana y The United States!

On my last trip to Spain , just over a year ago , I drove around Andalucia , Granada , Ronda , Malaga and eventually to Madrid , and I must say that I have not seen as many 'poor' people anywhere else as I saw in the little villages and towns on my travels.
Including 'the gypsies' especially in Granada area. One can sense a 'quite an ethnic charge' re; gypsy , or Roma issue in public debate .Anyway , US has the worlds richest 'poor' people , biggest SUVs , most TVs and so on and so on and so on , everybody else wants what we have but are afraid to say it in public.
Let's face it , Spain's best hope for strong and vibrant economy in future is close trade relationsship with US.
Euro is in the tank and stays there for the , at least , near future , so no help from EU connection.

Hi Zzeus.

I think our best hope is to have comerce with EU, US and lathynamerica One doesn't exclude the others.

EU has given us a lot of money (thousands of billions pesetas) which we have used to build roads, improve our railways and our cities. In exchange europeans have obtained a market of 40 million people, and a great place to have vacations

US has not given us money directly (I think we were the only european country which didn't get any money from Marshall's Plan), but has had a lot of comerce with Spain. Also, all american bases (Rota, Torrejón, ...) have given us both money and knowledge. I see a very good relationship in the near future, now that Spain is getting known by most americans.

With the rest of America (lathynamerica) we have very strong cultural bonds. They are our brothers We have obtaind from them a wide market for our goods, and in exchange they have benefited of our technology and from the creation of richness and work there.

In regard of euro, do you really think it is bad for us? Perhaps for the common spaniard it is (because any american good is very expensive) but for us as a country is great. Think that our goods are very cheap for you just because the dolar-euro parity is as it is. When you come here you find that all is cheap, so it is also good for the tourism.

I believe, however, that in the near future the euro will increase its value (when it phisically existed).

As you see, there is no reason to exclude noone from the comerce. The best is to have good relationships with all the world and benefit of what they can give us while trying to give the best of us.

Toddy:

- In Spain there are thousands of positions for public teachers, however, it is true that we form a lot more than we need. This is the result of a good cheap public University. Everybody can study. the bad about it is that no country needs such a high percentege of graduates.

I would say that 9 cars out of ten are spanish, since they are produced here - we are the 10th world producer of cars, and we export cars to many countries. Ford, Opel, Renault, Volkswagen, Audi, ...
The rest are Korean, Japanese and Americans.

Spain does not rely on foreign companies to provide work. When these companies came here, they usually did not create factories in the fields, but rather bought, because they thought it was an interesting investment for them, existing firms and factories. However, I can not see the point in discussing this matter since each day a little bit more, no matter the bad moments, like this one, the EC is more like a Country itself. If you went to France, you could see german, british, italian firms making bussiness and creating employment there, also a tiny presence of spanish, like Zara, Mango, Endesa (soon). It is like if you said that Washington (State) needs investments from New York to create employment. Money is free to come and go, and it goes where it obtains more profit.

You cannot rely on statistics to measure employment. You should be here and see who is unemployed aound you, and how the prices of apartments grow (because people has money,through work), or see your friends being "unemployed" and working.

I do not have antiamerican feelings, nor I think my people have nowadays, but one that is different to artificially trying to improve them basing it in supposed gifts given or leaders love for each other (having met very few times).
I think the USA are a great country no matter that I see things I don't like at all, like I see others in Spain.

Spaniards do not have to leave Spain to have a work , they have to, to have a work according with their goals. We are ambitious, our parents help us to go to the University, for they want us to be better and richer, so, there are engineers earning 1.000 $ a month, who could easily earn 2.000 i. e. reapairing or installing air conditioning or heatings, but they want (it is their choice, and I respect it) to work as engineers.

I have friends who have their degree as teachers and work as postmen. It is not a defect of the system ,since we have a lot of teachers working, but it is like a luxury (I don't know if we will be able to afford much longer) that everybody can study what they want (it's unexpensive), no matter that the markets don't demand it. There is a system called "oposición", an exam, where only the very best are accepted for public teaching. But still they can have another work.

I know it is very differnt in the USA, for there it is so difficult to pay for the Univ. that the few graduates have always a work (no matter if they are good or just average) according with their studies.

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Zzeus11:
The areas you have gone through are the most economically depressed in the country (but for Madrid). They don't have anything but the tourism bussiness.

It is like trying to see how the States are, going to Alaska. Ronda is a place that is typical, because bands of robbers had their headquarters there, because, as the result of the lack of resources, people was desperate there (bandoleros), and because it was in a montain area. You only had to go to Extremadure to see the poorer tour of the country.

However, I don't think you saw much poverty in the provinces' capitals, like Málaga, or Granada, nor would you see it in Badajoz or Cáceres.

Gypsies have, as a race, a nomad way of living. Some of them have assimilated, specially in the south. You can ask spaniards what they think about gypsies, and most will not say any good, but they are not speaking of all of them, everybody respect the honest ones, those who work for their living.

Unfortunately, those who live very well on begging, stelaing, robbing, or with drug traffic have become more notorious. They are a minority, but still they are quite a lot. It is sait that about 400.000 gypsies live in Spain.

What do you think about colombians? And I am pretty sure many of them are honest and work for their living.

I personally don't need anything extra from the states. I have my sports car (Hyundai-Korean), my TV sets - at my room and the living-room- (which is enough for me for I can not see 4 TVs at a time), and I do not envy anyone.

Euro is the answer for our future, a step forward in the process of becoming a country of several nations.

As for trade, I am for it, but I would not like such a relationship like the USA-UK, where the poor british haven't had a foreign policy of their own until Blair was elected, and still they follow the USA a lot, with very few independence. Besides, that has moved them away from their natural connections with Europe, making them have their economic cycle asociated to the North American one, which creates problems to unify economic policies in the EC.

Something for the pro EU's to think about:

Basque and Irish Insurgents Cast Doubt on
EU's Future 16 July 2001 By George Friedman

Summary
The European experiment of the new century cannot be declared a success until it has weathered a massive economic downturn. Individual European states today are
prepared to subsume their national aspirations for economic gain. But with recent economic decline in Europe, the question of what or who can hold the European
Union together remains unaddressed.
Analysis Over the weekend, Basque nationalists of the Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (ETA)separatist movement killed two officials in a well-planned strike at separate
targets 12 miles apart. At the same time, Britain's MI-5 broke up an operation of
the Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA) to secure weapons and sponsorship fromIraq.

These two incidents, part of persistent Basque and Irish insurgencies, are in many ways more significant to the long-term prospects of European unification
than the disintegration of southeastern Europe into feuding ethnic states. They
challenge a widely held view that long-term economic growth will end nationalist
friction and marginalize the internal dissidents who could create future conflict.
The creation of a trans-European entity after the massive European bloodletting in the first half of the 20th century has been an extraordinary event. The founders of the European Community, later the European Union, explained it as a rational response to that bloodletting, based on two assumptions: First,leaders on the Continent agreed that another round of fighting could annihilate
European civilization. Second, they assumed Europe is an inherently prosperous region. If the Europeans succeeded in building institutions to exploit their resources, they
could create unprecedented and lasting affluence. As the European Community demonstrated the success of the trans-national experiment, more and more states would wish to join in the prosperity and the relationship would deepen. More important, as the price for membership required that minor nationality issues, both internal and external, be set aside, it was
assumed that nationality issues plaguing individual states would subside.Whether this theory has been confirmed or not is more than a theoretical question. It goes to the heart of the European question and in turn to the future of the world. Recent signs of economic downturn in the economies of Western Europe indicate the long-term viability of the EU will be tested sooner rather tha later.

The ongoing nationalist insurgencies such as the Irish RIRA and Basque ETA stem from internal ethnic and political struggles more than from the economic prosperity that has defined most of the past decade. But the indirect connection is still relevant: If it was the prosperity facilitated by EU membership that helped marginalize these groups, a significant economic downturn could lead to their resurgence.Indeed, recent events in Italy, a member nation, and in Ireland and Austria, EU
observer nations, suggest that both economic and political pressures are building
against the EU goals of monetary and political integration.In Italy, the election of the conservative "Home of Freedom" coalition added a partner to the group of EU nations (particularly the United Kingdom, Spain and Ireland) who oppose the German-Franco move toward a formal, federalized Europe. It is also increasing the likelihood of continued challenges to the euro as a common currency. Likewise, Ireland and Austria have come under EU criticism for budgetary and political decisions that challenge the concept of European federalism.
Individual European states today are prepared to subsume their national aspirations for economic benefit. But if those benefits cease to exist, what will hold the union together?
When the monetary policy being pursued by the European Central Bank imposes austerity, as likely will happen sometime, that austerity will not be equally distributed. A monetary policy that benefits one European nation need not benefit others, and it is unlikely that it would.That will be the point at which European nationalism - currently limited to policy disagreements between national governments and the EU headquarters in
Brussels - will become significant again.
History shows that secession is the natural tendency during times of economic stringency. It will be at that moment that the ETAs and RIRAs of Europe will blossom again, combining primordial national sentiment with economic policy.The European Union is unprepared to deal with a system in crisis. Indeed, there is no institution on the Continent capable of preventing secession by current members, nor has this potential problem been addressed or even debated.When the North American Union faced the same issue in the late 1850s, the
question of secession was not settled until the Army of the Potomac seized the
strategic initiative at the Battle of Gettysburg. Within the European Union, who
will raise and command a force to protect the European Union? An Army of the -
Rhine?

George Friedman is the founder and chairman of STRATFOR.

For full text and grap