Antonio,

Thanks for your response. I guess I must have missed something along the way. All I can recall you posting was how the U.S. murders people and how we're the ones who are destroying the world ecologically, while Europe wears a halo.

You might as well add baby killer and storm trooper to my resume as well since I served in Viet Nam, and was a cop.

Wolf (Who will now slink away to his den and remain there for an extended period of time since he's a terrible person.)

Well, no, you haven't really answered my question. That is takes time is a weak answer, if that's what your elected officials are telling you I think it's time to demand action. After all, Spain, along with the US, is on the UN's list of countries that hasn't ratified.

A Washington Post editorial stated that European leaders are just talking about Kyoto to placate the Greens in their country and allow the US to take the heat for not passing it, and I'm beginning to wonder if it's really true.

You guys are being too hard on Antonio. You are missing the real meaning because you are americans and feel that he is going against americans. I am an American citizen, born in Venezuela with Spaniars parents, so I get hurt every time that someone says something negative about one of these countries, that's why I try to read carefully and get the real meaning.

I was very unlucky and when I arrived to my hotel in Madrid I felt down the stairs and I broke a leg, so I couldn't go anywhere. I spent so much time watching TV and talking to the people in reception (mostly Europeans) and the big problem is that Europeans see America like this big selfish giant that loves to get involved in wars, and love to make money no matter what they have to do. Plus they think that Americans think they are the best, the most intelligent... Now, if you ask why they tell you that it is what they see on TV. Most of them talked to me very freely becuase they thought I was Venezolano. And let me tell you that 50% of that perception is our fault. I've seen American teenagers without T-shirts walking on the street, American with their feet on the table in the restaurant, they were very loud in the hotel BY NIGHT. Our movies are too american for Europeans, they cannot wait to see Pearl Harbor to see how Americans saved the world. They see kids shooting other kids in school. They see guys being executed. They see an American president who doesn't know what's the name of the Spanish president and that means that the American president doesn't care about other "small" presidents and he hasn't got enough respect or interest to try to say a name in the right way. If this is what you see about a country, what are you going to think about it's people (and thanks God they didn't see the Jerry Springer show)
They are wrong, but how can you tell them when they see all that ugly stuff? Shouldn't we send them more positive stuff?

That group of "mostly Europeans" should boycott the refuse that the US sends over instead of ingesting it and then complaining about the taste...

I agree that the US is like an overbearing older brother, but I also think that the most thought-provoking idea presented in this thread to date has been Wolf's description of the US as the world's debit/ATM card. I wholeheartedly agree with the thought that if the US stopped divvying out aid to whomever, that those countries would step off their high horses in a hurry. (I also think that they would seek other sources for income, and fall into the same post-communist trap that has ensnared mob-controlled Russia, which sinks further each day into lawlessness.)

As for the US being such a "high-and-mighty" place, I don't see nearly the number of people yearning to somehow leave their country and get into Russia (similar in population) or any other country for that matter (except those of us on this board who yearn to go to Spain and die old and full of paella) . Why? You tell me...there must be something right happening here...things must have changed from the 19th and 20th centuries. I seem to remember "mostly Europeans" wanted nothing more than to come here then. :p

What Luces said is exactly what I was getting at: that people get their opinions from the press, which portrays an image of America that is not accurate. Of course, all press is this way, in the US also. However, unless someone is willing to be objective, I avoid this topic in conversations. I do the same if an American starts talking about Europe.

Lo que ha dicho Luces es exactamente lo que he querido decir, que es que la gente forma sus opiniones desde la información de la prensa. Y es muy sensacionalista, éste reportaje. Claro que todo la prensa es como así, incluyendo la de los EEUU. Pues entonces, a menos que alguien está voluntario a ser objectivo, evito estos tipos de conversaciones. Hago lo mismo si un estadounidense empieza hablar sobre Europa negativamente.

Este post no tiene nada que ver con la gente aquí en cualquier caso.

I wanted to comment on Wendy's last post re: Kyoto , Washington Post article .

I think part of the answer to Wendy's question is exactly that!
Most leaders in leading EU countries know that US is alraedy doing more , spending more money in R&D etc to combat pollution , environmental concerns and so on than their own countries , but keep the fake rhetoric up for 'greens' and other leftist organizations . Media is helping to fuel the misrepresentation of facts , and not interested to point out both sides of the story in Europe but here too , unfortunately!

Kyoto was failure from the start , and everybody knew it , but thanks to media , where was 'the fair and balanced reporting' .
About death penalty , simply but , europeans don't have a clue how this country is run , what values we have , and how much more democratic our system is , particularly at local levels , so any critisism about our justice system is best labeled as propaganda based on ignorance and jealousy!

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: Zzeus11 ]

I am spanish, and have met several USA citicens, and visited that country three times, so I have an idea too of how we see them an d wether it is fair or not.

The fact that the USA have become the greatest power in economy and armies, and that people want to reach it, to improve their live conditions does not have anything to do with the fact that, as a country, they are not interested in anybody's opinion on the way they face matters that affect everyone.

I know that many individuals do not behave the same way.

However, I can still recall when I was to New York, and my North American friend didn't approve that we were so 'old-fashioned' not to use dollars. I happened to complain that dollars are all the same size and green, and so, they were difficult to identify (remember he thought it should be the world's currency - subject to the USA Federal Reserve control), he said "we do not have that problem", which showed his small village attitude - but he was born in Atlanta.

Or when another friend in Chicago felt offended because I said that people were overtaking through the right, and that was dangerous. In the end the conclusion was
"We do it this way". It was obvious it did not mean anythig to him that traffic rules are worldwide. And he is really open minded for most things.

We consider the USA the neighbour that litters more in our alley, and the one who wants to do less about it. I think they have some strong prejudice against group decissions owed to their love to individuality.

However, I have to agree to a couple of things with those defending the USA position:

We have had time to ratify Kyoto and didn't. I don't think it takes so much time (maybe in Spain, but not in all the CE countries).

The reason is that the first ones that sign it will incur in costs that may make them less competitive than others who don't.

We are destructing the World, and we are beginning to suffer it now. Look at the skin deseases, cancer, an virus boosting statistics, caused by the mierda (sorry) we eat, drink, breath, and the increasing radiations we receive, but it is a matter that all of the countries have to sign, at least the most powerful, bigger in population, and those who are going to pollute a lot more whe they develope - Imagine 1.000 chinese or indian people with a car.

I can not blame the USA alone.

By the way, the society has invented prisons to defend itself from those elements who intend to destroy it. I think Death Penalty is right when danger is threatening enough. I would not support it now in Europe, but maybe I wouild in some States in the USA or other areas, where people sometimes fear for their lifes even at home. Honest people have their right to defende themselves.

But I don't like their legal system that only works with people who has a lot of money, just like us, but for the fact that here a little bit less moneey is needed.

Here is my sweet&sour.
Kisses
Ignacio

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

I LOVE BUSH FOR BRIDGING TWO WORLDS!! Every Spaniard has to admit that Bush has done more for Spanish American relations than ANY other US president. He has taken a genuine interest in Spain and the Spanish language. And Aznar knows that better relations with the US means a better economy for Spain; especially when Spain doesn't get the largest share of subsidies from the EU and all the French and German countries run east to the expansion for the new skilled cheap labor.
The US stance on the death penalty and the protocol are things that many Europeans in general find wrong. But rember, torturing and killing bulls is ALSO something that the US AND other European countries have made a crime. Yes, we have differences, but we have much more in common. We share a history and I believe we are well on the road on sharing a very prosperous future. And from a personal not, the Barcelona guy living up the street from me is working for Frazenet here in the US. They are starting a winery here in CA. (those Catalans they're always in front)
And by the way Madridman, how can I start a Barcaman.com? Do you have any advise?

Toddy
I don't oppose to what you say but for the fact that I don't think that the meeting from both presidents any economic (since you spoke about that) result has came out.

And it must be this way, since we are too small to have a negotiation power. If France , UK, and Germany have a weak position, imagine ours...

Besides, many of the powers of economic decision are in the hands of the EC, which is the only entity in Europe that could speak as an equal with the USA (if they could have a common voice.

Visits serve to strenghthen the position of ANZAR as a stateman, and to show the americans that his president has also a foreign affairs face.

And subsidies is not what we should rely on in order to improve our economy.

In fact, here people do not know that there is any ( in case there is, because, i.e. I don't consider what they give for the Bases a gift but a hire). And it is not significant in our economy, nor we need it to be.

By the way, Spain is the faster growing country in Europe (Except for Ireland), the unemployment rates are at an historic low, and so on.