The President was in Spain today. All the news reports I've seen have been about U.S. and EU relations. I'm looking for some news about bi-lateral US-Spain relations and the effect the President's meeting with the King and the Spanish Government will have on them. Things like trade, diplomatic initiatives in Central and South America, the future of US military bases in Spain and military cooperation, cultural exchanges, etc. Anybody know of news sites that would have this? Thanks for your assitance.

I read El Pais ( www.elpais.es ) which I like the best of all the Spanish dailies.

As for things in English, usually I read the Economist ( www.economist.com ) and CNN sometimes.

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

The only report from CNN (owned by Ted "I Love Being Liberal" Turner) was regarding the capital punishment protestors in Madrid. The group looked like it was about 20-large and included mostly old people who looked bored, and perhaps paid to be there. Glaringly absent was any talk of why George W. was in Spain (other than "to visit with Jose María).

This has been hashed over on another thread, but the fact that Europe in general is so adamantly opposed to the death penalty amazes me. I'd be happy to allow those on death row to be saved from execution if their families would foot the bill for their lifelong languishing in Leavenworth. I'm glad McVeigh is gone, as I wasn't interested in paying for his cable bill, his three squares per day, or reading his memoirs penned in prison.

Perhaps the U.S. will eventually can the death penalty, but in the mean time, we'll just follow in the footsteps of our European ancestry and punish those who have committed "gross crimes against humanity" with the ultimate penalty.

CaliBasco (who doesn't like getting on his soapbox...so will step off now.)

The coverage on Spanish television has been of similar high quality.

Of particular interest is how the Spanish qualify all Americans as the same (when 2 states account for most executions) while espousing how different Spain is (Cataluña, Pais Vasco, etc.) from region to region.

El País is my favourite, too. Some more suggestions: www.noticias.hispavista.com, www.elmundo.es (has an edicion de Madrid 24 horas) and www.latinews.com (both in Spanish and in English)

[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: tiajohanna ]

I wonder if good ole Georgie Porgie even knew where Spain was before going to visit...wonder if he could point it out on a map after!

I think we all know now why George was in Spain, in view of his proposals to scrap NATO this could lead to the withdrawal of American bases in Spain. According to today's reports from Sweden he is getting some stick from the rest of the Euro leaders regarding this. There are also demo's outside the offices where these talks are taking place.

Bush insisted on calling President Aznar, Anzar. Having said that he did admittedly get through a few phrases in Spanish, so he gets one point for effort. I wonder when he'll manage to to the same in English.

when did Pres. Bush II mention scrapping NATO? From all accounts, it seems NATO is going to expand again in the next few years (Baltics, Romania, Bulgaria & Slovenia being likely candidates). The way Aznar publicly warmed to the idea of cooperation on Missle Defense, I'd say US bases in Spain aren't going anywhere. Rota is very important to US Navy deployment in the Med., Red Sea and Persian Gulf, as well as supporting NATO deployments in the Balkans.(All of which Bush can probably find on a map!)

Perhaps SuePycroft was referring to the scrapping of the ABM treaty, if the missile defense system is created.

But hey, he couldn't do much more to alienate the EU, considering his environmental "policy".

The reports and commentaries on TV and in major newspapers in Spain were very positive concerning the meetings between Bush & Aznar.
The Bush government was said to be in favor of admiting more of the former eastern block countries into NATO (contrary to what was mentioned above). And definitely wants to maintain it's naval base at Rota.
Demonstrations against the US over here seem to be a joke, mainly supported by leftists, America haters, & anarchists.
By the way, some Spanish friends tell me that Bush is descendent from British royalty!

Well, it's been a short visit (only one day). Bush isn't regarded with much sympathy by spaniards (consider our right wing party would be clearly left wing in the US and his vision on death penalty and lack of knowlegde of the "outside" world causes some controversy here). All newspapers and TVs joked about him calling President Aznar Mr. Ánsar.

As for Bush being descended from British royalty, that's no big deal--I would venture to bet that nearly everyone on this board (on both sides of the Atlantic) is also!! We genealogists always joke about getting back to Charlemagne or to William the Conqueror, but in reality, given the number of offspring, the relatively high(er) standard of living, longer life expectancies, multiple spouses/liaisons, etc. that royalty enjoyed throughout history, it's not too farfetched to claim royal blood. Once you've connected to one of them, too, you're linked to all of Europe, because of the intermarriages of European royalty.

And once you realize that your number of direct ancestors DOUBLES with every generation back, and there are five or so generations in each century, most of us can link up with some royal line in England (and, for that matter, France, Spain, etc....) in the 1500s or earlier.

However, the royal tendency toward intermarriage and inbreeding might explain some of George W.'s oddities!!
Tara

[ 06-14-2001: Message edited by: taravb ]

MSNBC got in on the fun with this piece on Bush's visit to Spain:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/587066.asp?0dm=L21VN

And doesn't the menu for their lunch sound yummy?

Tara

Over the years we have had the privilege of hosting people in our home, from various countries throughout the world. Many of these people had very little if any true knowledge of how to speak English. But what impressed us most about all these people was the fact that they made an honest attempt to communicate with us in English, no matter how bad they spoke it.

We considered it an honor that they would even try.

Wolf

My comments at a party the other night when someone made one of these snotty comments about the US:

Oh Spain is sooooo liberal. Pleeeease. I guess that's why Aznar cosied up to Bush and kissed his ass with this missile shield nonsense.

I guess that's why the 'liberal' PP has a complete majority in parliament.

Oh! You didn't vote for Aznar! Sorry to generalise! Well sir, I didn't vote for Bush and 51% of Americans didn't either. So I assume I have dispelled your silly stereotype now?

[ 06-15-2001: Message edited by: Asterault ]

Prior to retirement, I spent over 20 years working outside the US throughout the world. I found that showing an interest in the local culture as well as trying to communicate in the native language, no matter how poorly, was very well received by my hosts, even in France!
Those who criticize the President because of his inability to speak "perfect" spanish are far less intelligent than he is! I say at least give him a "B" for effort.

Well, I guess my post has been misunderstood, it wasn't meant to be snooty nor over-criticise Bush's spanish.
Of course, people don't expect Bush to speak perfect spanish, he spoke a few phrases and people appreciated that but when he called Aznar by other name (well, it's humorous to mistake your guest's name or to say a phrase that has a double meaning!). Maybe joke was not the more accurate word in English.

When I said that right wing in Spain would be left wing in the US, it was not a snooty attitute. What I meant is that in issues like death penalty, guns, Kioto protocol, social benefits, worker's unions and so on, even the Spanish right wing would more lefty than the democrats in the US. Maybe I'm wrong but the impression I have is that even discussing about death penalty and things like that is politically incorrect in Spain.

Interesting article. thanks for the link, taravb.

Far be it from me to criticize anyone for trying to speak a foreign language. We have all been there. I really stuck my foot in my mouth a few times during those first days of French and Spanish, and certainly will in German, I am sure... It would certainly be painful to have those blunders publicized to the entire world. ouch.

I will be interesting to see how Europeans come to view Bush with time, interesting to see how the rest of the U.S. residents will come to view him as well. It will take a lot of evidence though for me to be able to view him as someone deeply compassionate and gifted with a powerful intellect.

Once again, my humble opinion.

Nicole (who hates conflict, but can't seem to resist instigating it periodically)

-- see what you started Wolf!!)

[ 06-15-2001: Message edited by: Nicole ]

Nicole,

Me??

Wolf ( )

Why do Europeans protest Bush's opposition to ratification of Kyoto? The only European country to ratify it was Romania, and that was a while ago. Wouldn't that protest-energy be better spent lobbying their own leaders for ratification? Seems that European countries are also dragging their feet on ratification too but passing responsibility on to the US.

Antonio- The Kyoto Protocols deal primarily with Carbon Dioxide (co2). Did you know that North America ABSORBS more co2 than it emits? That is correct. Due to the large forests and agricultural areas (whose plants absorb co2 and emit oxygen as part of Photosynthesis)USA and Canada are "importers" of co2, not "exporters" like Western Europe.

Kyoto fails to address the emesions of vastly expanding industrial states like China, Mexico and India. Kyoto sounds good but won't be very effective in practice, which is why every western European gov't. has refused to implement it, not just the US.

For an interesting take on the idea of a North American "carbon sink", check out Land Use Controls U.S. Carbon Sink

The study indicates that previous estimates of the carbon absorption of the North American carbon sink have been vastly overstated.

Regardless, there won't be a carbon sink if the logging industry continues to overcut ancient North American forests(e.g., temperate rainforests in British Columbia...visit Greenpeace for more information).

Carbon sinks have become a cop-out for the US to continue its current level of greenhouse gas emissions, while avoiding the issue of land use and its concomitant impact on the global climate. We in the US have a great deal more on our environmental conscience than the emission of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

[ 06-18-2001: Message edited by: LaProfesora ]

Interesting and informative viewpoints and links. The point is that the Europeans are complaining bitterly about Kyoto, yet they themselves will not put the treaty into effect. Until they do, they should quite down about US enviromental policies.

A few points- Antonio's reports are from the US EPA, and deal only with US production and absorption of co2- it does not address Canadian absorption rates, which plays a significant role in NORTH AMERICAN co2 levels. LaProfessora's reports state only that there is conflicting data about US co2 absorption levels.

OK, I'm through.

Where's Anchovy Front? I want a report on "global warming" on Costa del Sol beaches!!

The Kyoto Protocol isn't realistic unless all nations in the world participate. Within 24 months after it went into effect, India and China alone (since they would not participate in the accord) will generate more additional carbon emissions than the total reductions in the U.S.

It isn't just Bush who's against it. So was Clinton and his administration. There are also rumblings that most nations want to "modify the terms" related to their own individual involvement as well.

Wolf

I don't think I made my question clear. What I was wondering is why NO European (save Romania) country has approved Kyoto. It seems that Europeans place a high value on environmentalism, but it has yet to be ratified by any of the countries that now so bitterly complain that the US rejects it. I was just wondering why that is.

Antonio,

The simple fact is that nobody should be asking anyone else to make a commitment that they won't match themselves.

It all boils down to Spain, Germany, and half of the countries in the world telling the U.S. that they want them to follow the rules, while they modify them to their own level of control. In other words, we're supposed to hamstring our economy so that other nations can go full speed ahead without regard to the Protocol just because someone said it was "The right thing to do."

When Spain ratifies the accord, without modifications to the original proposal, then come back and tell us how we're "bad people" for not signing a blank check for the world to cash as they want.

As for the U.S. being the biggest polluter, that's true, but for some reason over half of the nations also believe we're their private "ATM card" as well. If we told them that our foreign aid was going to disappear to allow for tax credits to people so we can meet the requirements of the Protocol, I wonder how many nations would still be interested in putting it in motion.

Even if it was put into effect, how many countries would need aid from the U.S. just to implement the program? Obviously if we cut aid to meet the Protocol... they wouldn't even bother to consider implementing it.

Although I agree that global warming is a problem for future generations, I have read too many studies that say that the Kyoto Protocol isn't even close to the answer. In fact, some studies indicate that it's a crack pot idea that people are buying simply because the media doesn't give equal space to other points of view, like the MIT studies.


Wolf (Who isn't in to signing blank checks)

When you say your country, you include all people in it. That is insulting.

If I say all Spanish are 'fachas' that's not true. I am against the death penalty and in favor of environmental reform, and there are many many (a lot!!) Americans that feel the same way. This issue is that 'the old guard' is in power due to a questionable election - but that's a different argument.

The US, like Spain, is a polyglot of people all of whom are very different.

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Asterault ]

Pues Antonio, no pasa nada, aunque vivo aquí voy a decir lo que pienso es la verdad, no obstante de la nacionalidad!

Sabes que (escribo en Ingles para los otros)..

Favor for the death penalty in the US is only 50-55%? This is lower than I thought before and lower than in France when they stopped it there in 1981!

I think (and hope) the US will stop the death penalty within 5 years. As for the environment, the US is surprisingly not as bad as one would think far as environmental regulations go. However, like you say, there is much work to be done...

So wouldn't the protesters' energy be better spent lobbying your own governments to ratify Kyoto? I mean, if Azerbajain passed it three years ago, what's Spain's excuse?

And regarding the death penalty, did you actually vote to abolish it? Recent studies show that even a majority of citizens in Sweden, reknowned for their concern for human rights, favor the death penalty (sorry I can't get the study outside of work). But it was never presented for a vote.

Antonio,

I realize you didn't mean that all Americans are "bad people." But I still wonder why you think that people who disagree with you are bad? Aren't people entitled to their own opinion?

Voltaire said; "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend unto my death, your right to say it."

The quote may not be exact, but I think you get the meaning.

Wolf (A person shows the same teeth when they smile as they do when they snarl.)

Hey Antonio--

I agree with you! I am against the death penelty here and everywhere else. Its not on any humanitarian grounds (McVeigh deserved what he got), but rather on individual's rights vs. the State. No government should have the power to decree that one of its citizens is undeserving of life and therefor should be eliminated. This is an over-reach of State power and an abuse of authority. Also, since any system of justice is imperfect (since it is made up of people, who are inherently imperfect)having a punishment as final and irreversable as death is wrong.

It is interesting that here in the US, conservatives generally believe that government institutions are inefficient and constantly making problems instead of solutions. That is, except when it comes to the administration of capital punishment. Here, the government never makes a mistake!

When I look at who our "allies" in the pro-death penalty camp are (China, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, et. al.), I know the US is on the wrong side on this one.

Antonio, there have been several arguments in support of your comments. I happen to be deeply concerned about the environment and agree that the U.S. should be an example - not because of position of power, but because it is the correct thing to do. I also think there are a number of other crucial issues that deserve attention, of which the environment is only one.

I can't remember who did this, but I don't think you can juxtapose India to the U.S. in terms of pollution and environmental responsibility. Nor can you compare Canada, whose population is so much smaller the potential pollution is laughable compared to ours.

anyway, as a side note, at my last job, my boss - a conservative Republican who runs everyday and doesn't eat red meat because its unhealthy - made fun of me for being an environmentalist. I told her you can run everyday and not smoke and stuff, but if everything you eat, breathe and drink has carcinogens, you are going to die just as quickly.

Like it or not, we are all connected and should be mindful of each other. I also strongly believe that there should always BALANCE in everything in life - economy, environment, concern for humanity. In some ways we may be behind European countries, (and I it is not an issue Bush is interested in championing) but environmental consciousness is a fairly new thing. The first time I went to Europe (15 yrs ago) they were discussing severe industrial pollution in the rivers and air (Paris is nowhere close to smog-free). So, be patient, we'll get there soon, and let's keep a dialogue going.

Group hug!

Antonio,

Actually I agree with you too. I would like to see the death penalty abolished. I've always been against it.

I also want to see the U.S. become more pro-active in saving our ecology. In fact, I believe the U.S. should take a stand that they intend to do far more than the Kyoto Protocol ever envisioned, and act as a leader through example, showing everyone that we can do it because it's the right thing to do. Not because it's an agreement we signed, and are forced to live up to it. Especially when the agreement itself falls far short of our worldly obligation.

Asterault said it all with the fewest words possible.

"Group hug."

Wolf (Trying not to lift his arms too high, forgot to put on deodorant this morning.)

I neither agree nor disagree, I sincerely want to know why Kyoto hasn't been implemented by any of the countries who appear to want it most.

Antonio,

Why don't you answer Wendy's question for her? She's asked it three times now. Since you're so "anti-U.S." on the Kyoto Protocol issue I would assume you can give her a valid answer.

Wolf (Who thinks this thread has really deteriorated and should be eliminated.)

Antonio,

Why don't you answer Wendy's question for her? She's asked it three times now. Since you're so "anti-U.S." on the Kyoto Protocol issue I would assume you can give her a valid answer.

Wolf (Who thinks this thread has really deteriorated and should be eliminated.)

[ 06-23-2001: Message edited by: Nicole ]

Antonio, the results that you found are the same reason that my views towards capital punishment have changed profoundly in the last few years.

I never gave it an enormous amount of thought and even remember myself saying that I didn't want to bank roll some sociopath for the rest of his/her life if they could not be treated an rehabilitated .
During the last few years I started to read huge amounts of information about the racism/classism that underlies the application of capital punishment. statistically, as many whites as hispanics an blacks engage in unlawful behavior, but people of color and poor people are hugely more likely to be imprisoned and sentenced to death. With DNA testing, so many sentences have been overturned. It has really made me reevaluate my opinion on the issue. I think it is the same thing that is happening to a lot of estadounidenses, and is the reason the polls show a dramatic shift recently against the death penalty.

Antonio,

Thanks for your response. I guess I must have missed something along the way. All I can recall you posting was how the U.S. murders people and how we're the ones who are destroying the world ecologically, while Europe wears a halo.

You might as well add baby killer and storm trooper to my resume as well since I served in Viet Nam, and was a cop.

Wolf (Who will now slink away to his den and remain there for an extended period of time since he's a terrible person.)

Well, no, you haven't really answered my question. That is takes time is a weak answer, if that's what your elected officials are telling you I think it's time to demand action. After all, Spain, along with the US, is on the UN's list of countries that hasn't ratified.

A Washington Post editorial stated that European leaders are just talking about Kyoto to placate the Greens in their country and allow the US to take the heat for not passing it, and I'm beginning to wonder if it's really true.

You guys are being too hard on Antonio. You are missing the real meaning because you are americans and feel that he is going against americans. I am an American citizen, born in Venezuela with Spaniars parents, so I get hurt every time that someone says something negative about one of these countries, that's why I try to read carefully and get the real meaning.

I was very unlucky and when I arrived to my hotel in Madrid I felt down the stairs and I broke a leg, so I couldn't go anywhere. I spent so much time watching TV and talking to the people in reception (mostly Europeans) and the big problem is that Europeans see America like this big selfish giant that loves to get involved in wars, and love to make money no matter what they have to do. Plus they think that Americans think they are the best, the most intelligent... Now, if you ask why they tell you that it is what they see on TV. Most of them talked to me very freely becuase they thought I was Venezolano. And let me tell you that 50% of that perception is our fault. I've seen American teenagers without T-shirts walking on the street, American with their feet on the table in the restaurant, they were very loud in the hotel BY NIGHT. Our movies are too american for Europeans, they cannot wait to see Pearl Harbor to see how Americans saved the world. They see kids shooting other kids in school. They see guys being executed. They see an American president who doesn't know what's the name of the Spanish president and that means that the American president doesn't care about other "small" presidents and he hasn't got enough respect or interest to try to say a name in the right way. If this is what you see about a country, what are you going to think about it's people (and thanks God they didn't see the Jerry Springer show)
They are wrong, but how can you tell them when they see all that ugly stuff? Shouldn't we send them more positive stuff?

That group of "mostly Europeans" should boycott the refuse that the US sends over instead of ingesting it and then complaining about the taste...

I agree that the US is like an overbearing older brother, but I also think that the most thought-provoking idea presented in this thread to date has been Wolf's description of the US as the world's debit/ATM card. I wholeheartedly agree with the thought that if the US stopped divvying out aid to whomever, that those countries would step off their high horses in a hurry. (I also think that they would seek other sources for income, and fall into the same post-communist trap that has ensnared mob-controlled Russia, which sinks further each day into lawlessness.)

As for the US being such a "high-and-mighty" place, I don't see nearly the number of people yearning to somehow leave their country and get into Russia (similar in population) or any other country for that matter (except those of us on this board who yearn to go to Spain and die old and full of paella) . Why? You tell me...there must be something right happening here...things must have changed from the 19th and 20th centuries. I seem to remember "mostly Europeans" wanted nothing more than to come here then. :p

What Luces said is exactly what I was getting at: that people get their opinions from the press, which portrays an image of America that is not accurate. Of course, all press is this way, in the US also. However, unless someone is willing to be objective, I avoid this topic in conversations. I do the same if an American starts talking about Europe.

Lo que ha dicho Luces es exactamente lo que he querido decir, que es que la gente forma sus opiniones desde la información de la prensa. Y es muy sensacionalista, éste reportaje. Claro que todo la prensa es como así, incluyendo la de los EEUU. Pues entonces, a menos que alguien está voluntario a ser objectivo, evito estos tipos de conversaciones. Hago lo mismo si un estadounidense empieza hablar sobre Europa negativamente.

Este post no tiene nada que ver con la gente aquí en cualquier caso.

I wanted to comment on Wendy's last post re: Kyoto , Washington Post article .

I think part of the answer to Wendy's question is exactly that!
Most leaders in leading EU countries know that US is alraedy doing more , spending more money in R&D etc to combat pollution , environmental concerns and so on than their own countries , but keep the fake rhetoric up for 'greens' and other leftist organizations . Media is helping to fuel the misrepresentation of facts , and not interested to point out both sides of the story in Europe but here too , unfortunately!

Kyoto was failure from the start , and everybody knew it , but thanks to media , where was 'the fair and balanced reporting' .
About death penalty , simply but , europeans don't have a clue how this country is run , what values we have , and how much more democratic our system is , particularly at local levels , so any critisism about our justice system is best labeled as propaganda based on ignorance and jealousy!

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: Zzeus11 ]

I am spanish, and have met several USA citicens, and visited that country three times, so I have an idea too of how we see them an d wether it is fair or not.

The fact that the USA have become the greatest power in economy and armies, and that people want to reach it, to improve their live conditions does not have anything to do with the fact that, as a country, they are not interested in anybody's opinion on the way they face matters that affect everyone.

I know that many individuals do not behave the same way.

However, I can still recall when I was to New York, and my North American friend didn't approve that we were so 'old-fashioned' not to use dollars. I happened to complain that dollars are all the same size and green, and so, they were difficult to identify (remember he thought it should be the world's currency - subject to the USA Federal Reserve control), he said "we do not have that problem", which showed his small village attitude - but he was born in Atlanta.

Or when another friend in Chicago felt offended because I said that people were overtaking through the right, and that was dangerous. In the end the conclusion was
"We do it this way". It was obvious it did not mean anythig to him that traffic rules are worldwide. And he is really open minded for most things.

We consider the USA the neighbour that litters more in our alley, and the one who wants to do less about it. I think they have some strong prejudice against group decissions owed to their love to individuality.

However, I have to agree to a couple of things with those defending the USA position:

We have had time to ratify Kyoto and didn't. I don't think it takes so much time (maybe in Spain, but not in all the CE countries).

The reason is that the first ones that sign it will incur in costs that may make them less competitive than others who don't.

We are destructing the World, and we are beginning to suffer it now. Look at the skin deseases, cancer, an virus boosting statistics, caused by the mierda (sorry) we eat, drink, breath, and the increasing radiations we receive, but it is a matter that all of the countries have to sign, at least the most powerful, bigger in population, and those who are going to pollute a lot more whe they develope - Imagine 1.000 chinese or indian people with a car.

I can not blame the USA alone.

By the way, the society has invented prisons to defend itself from those elements who intend to destroy it. I think Death Penalty is right when danger is threatening enough. I would not support it now in Europe, but maybe I wouild in some States in the USA or other areas, where people sometimes fear for their lifes even at home. Honest people have their right to defende themselves.

But I don't like their legal system that only works with people who has a lot of money, just like us, but for the fact that here a little bit less moneey is needed.

Here is my sweet&sour.
Kisses
Ignacio

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

I LOVE BUSH FOR BRIDGING TWO WORLDS!! Every Spaniard has to admit that Bush has done more for Spanish American relations than ANY other US president. He has taken a genuine interest in Spain and the Spanish language. And Aznar knows that better relations with the US means a better economy for Spain; especially when Spain doesn't get the largest share of subsidies from the EU and all the French and German countries run east to the expansion for the new skilled cheap labor.
The US stance on the death penalty and the protocol are things that many Europeans in general find wrong. But rember, torturing and killing bulls is ALSO something that the US AND other European countries have made a crime. Yes, we have differences, but we have much more in common. We share a history and I believe we are well on the road on sharing a very prosperous future. And from a personal not, the Barcelona guy living up the street from me is working for Frazenet here in the US. They are starting a winery here in CA. (those Catalans they're always in front)
And by the way Madridman, how can I start a Barcaman.com? Do you have any advise?

Toddy
I don't oppose to what you say but for the fact that I don't think that the meeting from both presidents any economic (since you spoke about that) result has came out.

And it must be this way, since we are too small to have a negotiation power. If France , UK, and Germany have a weak position, imagine ours...

Besides, many of the powers of economic decision are in the hands of the EC, which is the only entity in Europe that could speak as an equal with the USA (if they could have a common voice.

Visits serve to strenghthen the position of ANZAR as a stateman, and to show the americans that his president has also a foreign affairs face.

And subsidies is not what we should rely on in order to improve our economy.

In fact, here people do not know that there is any ( in case there is, because, i.e. I don't consider what they give for the Bases a gift but a hire). And it is not significant in our economy, nor we need it to be.

By the way, Spain is the faster growing country in Europe (Except for Ireland), the unemployment rates are at an historic low, and so on.

Ignacio,

Spain is growing economically, and if there is growth in the population, it's coming from outside of Spain, since the birth rate is barely ahead of the death rate.

It's fantastic how many small businesses are cropping up all over the country. I enjoy going into the small businesses, and from what I've found, some of the smallest bars and restaurants serve the most fantastic food around. And the people... they are wonderful! They always make us feel comfortable, and at home in their places of business. That's something we don't always see in the U.S.

Wolf (Who enjoys it when waiters in Paris follow him out on the street because they are insulted by the tip for their lousy service. I've always figured a penny is fair. )

Ignacio, there is quite a bit of money related to expanding the naval base in the south. Also, the use of "Echalan"(not quite sure how it is spelled) is not given to a lot of countries. Hopefully, this will help put a stop to ETA. Next to the US, Spain has the most investment in Mexico.In order to pay for the rapidly approaching pensioners, the declining Spanish population must expand its tax base. It is strongly tied to the US now by way of NAFTA (soon to be AFTA). Bush Sr. and the Spanish King are hunting friends. Fox and Bush are VERY close friends. And, from Aznar's recent trip to Mexico, Aznar is joining the new triangle: North America, South American, and Spain. Economics, along with personal relational history, is the basis for Spain looking West.(no tomato trucks turned over here)

I totally agree about Echelon, serves for spying no matter who and what for. As for policial activities, I think the mentioned problem must have a political solution, such as in Jugoslavia or Ireland.

I read in the economic press the case you refer, though I am not pretty sure about the name of the firms.

I sincerely don't believe that the fact that some counties' presidents are friends (in case it is not a media "pose") can change relations that are stated on profit/losses of big firms, votes from farmers (banana problem), car factories' workers (Daimler-Chrysler) or so on. These are not spanish problems, but I am using them as examples of the lobbys involved.

As for the tomato trucks, french shouldn't do it, for they government agreed to the EC pact, but south and central americans should, since our out-borders superprotective agricultural policy is preventing them from being able to compete, while they have to open borders to manufactured items to maintain their tech and comfort level (like cars, except may be for Brazil).

I think that Spain is the best place in EU to invest , from US perspective.
GNP growth is still possible for several years at a higher rate than in EU 'super states' like Germany and France .
Spain's lower living standard allows faster growth rate and spanish as a language is more familiar here than others.
I am looking to invest into manufacturing sector in Spain in the next 5 years or so.
Wouldn't do it in any other country in Europe.

Sorry, folks, but alongside Echalan, Germany and France are "spying on our internet activities."
Spain, is the best investment money can buy right now in the EU. Highly educated workers with a high permanent job unemployment rate. There is a flood of professional workers leaving Spain to find work around the world. Nurses to the UK, Bankers to Latin America, and thousands of teacher to the United States.(I married one) However, soon there will be even cheaper highly educated non-union labor in Eastern Europe. And the Franco-German investment in Spain flight will begin. Spain's economy is increasingly becoming dependent on Latin American sucess. Unless the Franco-Germans keep their big companies in Spain and keep giving Spain the biggest subsidies (which eastern expansion will cut-off), Spain will not be able to pay for their aging pop. This is an economic fact. It is very interesting that Spain stood up to Shroeder to back expansion off to 2004, the same year Bush targeted for the new Latin Hemispheric trade bloc. (which will be the biggest trade bloc in the world)
Spain came late into the EU and will eventually suffer for it. However, an eventual jump off the EU ship onto the AFTA armada will not only keep Spain afloat, but will make it a world player it once was. You can (Spanish) bank on it.

Well, there is not a permanent unemployment rate. It is situated in 9%,and each year it lowers a .5% at least. It is higher than the USA, but lower than many developed countries.

Besides, in every country it exists a number of people who work, but do not declare it, and are listed as unemployed. In Spain, this is an institution.

Why do you think we are receiving hundreds of thousands inmigrants each year and the spanish do not complain? Because there is work for all of us. That supposed 9% unemployment rate is actually more close to the 5% frictional unemployment rate in the USA ( It is people who recycle themselves at the University, an academy, or take a rest between one and other work).

The fact that we are exporting qualified personnel outside our borders is due to the fact that here public University is very cheap (about 500 to 1000 $ a year if you are studying in your home town, and live at home), and the level acquired reasonable/good. But this is a plus for anybody who wonders where to invest.

Besides, salaries are very low in many of the qualified positions, so, they are very competitive.

Can you mention non-stable franco-german investments here?

Well, there is i.e. Carrefour, a chain of malls (more or less), but they are not leaving, since they make their bussiness here (sell). There is the Volkswagen make SEAT, which used to be a purely spanih make, but, if they left, somebody would buy it, as done in the past, because in the automobile industry productivity we are #1 in Europe, and it would be much easier to close plants somewhere else.

Although there are subsidies from the EC, these ones compensate the fact that many of our industries were strongly hitten or disappeared with our joining the EC, and they were negotiated in that treaty and the following, they are not free gifts, nor can they easily removed. They will be negotiated again.

There is a lot of confusion about the future of aging population. What pays for the retirement is not the children you have (may be in an old-fashioned farmers society), but the invested capital. If we (I do) put apart some money for our retirement plans, why do we have to fear about population? My plan will invest it in China, Latin America or wherever, and give me money generated with the profits that the firms which work in those population growing countries generate.

As for the AFTA, I would be very surprised if the stronger economies of South America (Argentina & Brasil) join, and doubt that the rest do it. NObody knows what could happen to their industries if overwhelmed by a bombing of more competitive North American products.

Tere is an agreement of Free Trade between the EC and Mexico, and some smaller ones with the Mercosur, that may de developed further ahead if necessary.

What I meant about permanment jobs is Full-Time work and not temporary contracted works. Your socialist party puts your unemployment at 15%. Aznar's administration pushed against Germany to be assured of Spain's subsidies even with new members who, according to the EU agreement, would deserve these subsidies. Many of the Spanish professionals here in the US are applying for permanent green cards and US citizenship because they can't find work in Spain.
Many of the immigrants that are coming into Spain are doing work that the Spanish no longer want to do.
Brazil and Argentina already, at the Summit of the Americas, already signed onto wanting to join AFTA called "The Declaration of Quebect"
Your putting away your retirment into investments is very knew in Spain, we have been doing that for years here in the US.

In my building in NYC the lights in the hallways are on all night. In Spain, you enter, you press the little button and the lights come on (they were previously off) and then hurry up the stairs, and bang! the light goes out before you get to your door. And you feel around for the button and you find it, but no, it is someone's door buzzer. Ooops, the sangria has gone to your head, and
you hurry upstairs and finally see the little light to turn on the lights and finally get up to your door.

Imagine all the electricity being saved in Spain. Compare the tiny cars to the hulking SUVs here. No wonder the US consumes a huge portion of the world's energy resources.

That's my thought's on the environment. This thread has outlasted the President's trip in Spain by more than a month.

Spanish unemployment figures are misleading, the percentage of the population 'en paro' is much lower due to those working without contracts or 'under the table.' Also, Spain is the least socialist of all the EU countries, however it has much more social welfare than the US, where the lack of it is distressing.

Is it distressing that Aznar keeps chipping away at the social welfare in Spain. Is it distressing that little gitanos go to school hungry because their school doesn't give them free food.Because guess what, our poor children not only get free breakfast but free lunch as well. And contrary to myths, they get free healthcare as well, and don't even have to pay anything for their medicine. And how much to Spanish children have to pay for their school books; here they're all FREE for all children. Who's distressed now?
The SUV market is booming in Spain. I never saw so many big American cars in such little streets and yes the president left, but Aznar's coming to Bush's ranch. Adios y Hola
The close friendship continues.

Toddy says:
"I LOVE BUSH FOR BRIDGING TWO WORLDS!! Every Spaniard has to admit that Bush has done more for Spanish American relations than ANY other US president."

Baloney. How brief are our memories.

President Dwight Eisenhower did more, although admittedly through enlightened self interest. We needed the Spanish bases.

Nevertheless it was Eisenhower's initiatives in negotiating the American bases that enabled Spain to begin to escape the stigma of having been sympathetic to the wrong side in WW2.

Those initiatives also gave a big push to Spanish efforts to promote its tourism industry.

Bush has done nothing that comes even close to what Eisenhower did to help Spain enter the postward world.
Cantabene

[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: cantabene ]

Cantabene,

Actually the gradual shift towards US/Spain relations began in the early 40s, during WWII. The U.S. & Great Britain kept communications channels open with Franco's government by allowing oil and grain to be shipped into Spain, despite their stance as a "non-beligerent" but associated with the Axis.

In agreements reached, Franco finally brought Spain into a neutral stance in 1943, and began limiting the shipments of goods to axis powers. One of the main raw products being wolfram (tungsten).

Before and after this time, Franco allowed the underground railroad that was helping Jews & Allied air personnel to operate freely, and in a worse case scenario, made the people who escaped from the Axis controlled areas to stay in Spain, until the end of hostilities.

The Foreign Ministry portion of the Spanish government had already began their swing towards the Allies as early in 1941, even though they were outwardly saying they supported the Axis.

Franco made it official, in the summer of 1943, when he appeared at a function no longer wearing his Falangist uniform, opting for a naval uniform instead, and stated that Spain was neutral. It marked the end of the government claiming they leaned towards the axis. In fact, behind the scenes, they had already began to assist the Allies in many ways, and then removed their volunteer army (I believe it was the 250th regiment of the German Army, which had been 40,000 men strong)from the Russian front.

At that time, FDR began looking at ways to open up relations even further with Franco, and after his death, President Truman continued the efforts. The culmination was the events that took place during the Eisenhower administration, and the opening of naval bases such as Rota.

The Spanish government (according to old State Department records) was concerned that the German army would attempt to land a force in the Iberian peninsula to capture Gibralter, and that fear didn't pass until the Germans themselves were shown as not invincible in Africa. If it happened, Spain's government indicated they would fight against the Germans, and stated they would welcome help from the Allies, because they did not intend to allow Germany to bring the war to them.

Even though there were mixed signals given outwardly, behind the scenes, the ties between the Allies and Spain had already advanced beyond neutrality, and they were more or less siding with us.

If I recall correctly, our Ambassador to Spain at that time was named Hayes, and he ended up being at the center of the negotiations. His close ties with FDR, and the fact that Franco always welcomed him for private discussions indicate that Hayes may very well have been one of the two men who carried out secret negotiations. The other would have been the Ambassador from Great Britain.

As for Eisenhower, he was deeply involved in the negotiations as Commander of Allied Forces, so when he actually became President, the swing was pretty easy to make.

Anyway... That's what I learned from reading over 100 books on Spanish-American relations from 1931 to present.

Wolf (Who has to get a life outside of reading, writing, and scratching fleas )

Nice job Wolf! A fellow historian. Great information. You can be the official historian in a club I'm trying to start to promote Spain/American relations.
However, I will still assert that Bush has bridged two worlds more than any other president. He is the first president to give his radio address in Spanish. The first to officially celebrate Cinco de Mayo at the White House. The first president to take his first foreign trip to a Spanish speaking country(I believe wolf, feel free to correct me on this), and the first president who's first stop in Europe was Spain. Viva Hispanidad y the United States!
(do you want to join wolf?)

I really regret not have been able to attend to the dinner in Madrid...., with that kind of topics in a dinner you were headed for trouble, I've lost the fun.

Toddy says:
"However, I will still assert that Bush has bridged two worlds more than any other president."

Toddy may assert it, but I have yet to see any more bridges than were there previously.

Wolfgang: I do not doubt the accuracy of your reserach. But I was in Spain in the early 1950s when Eisenhower visited there for the first time. I recall that Spain remained somewhat of a pariah to many nations. And I recall the excitement that Ike's visit generated among the Spanish people within my purview.

My point was that Bush is hardly the "first" US president to contribute to enhancing Spanish-American relations, as your research affirms.

I just get a bit tired of the Bush sycophants making claims for him that are not justified. Heck, the man couldn't even work up enough interest in Spain to learn to pronounce Mr. Aznar's name correctly.
Cantabene

Toddy,

You're absolutely right about Bush being the first President to visit Spain. Even though his Spanish wasn't the greatest, he at least had the courtesy to give it a try. I commend him for that but still wouldn't vote for him.

Toddy - send me an email in reference to what you're considering doing. It's in my profile.

Wolf (Who's watching Charlie Chan and typing this, so forgive any errors. )

Boy, someone gets upset easily don't they? All I did was correct an erroneous comment about referring to a country as socialist when it has the most open economy in the EU.

Plenty of hungry people in the States. In poor health too. If you take a trip to the cities and go to the poor parts you will see things far worse than anything in Spain.

A little more objectivism and less flag waving would be in order.

Asterault,

You're absolutely right. One of the biggest problems with capitalism is that it pushes social programs aside in favor of higher profits for corporations, and wages for those who are working, and paid at a higher level.

As a result, the poor get poorer, and from what I've heard, roughly one out of six Americans who is scraping by is no more than two paychecks away from being homeless.

Wolf

Wolfgang says:
"Toddy,
You're absolutely right about Bush being the first President to visit Spain."

And with that fallacy, Wolfgang, you have invalidated your research. Eisenhower beat Bush to Spain by 5 decades.
Cantabene

Asterault says:
"Plenty of hungry people in the States. In poor health too. If you take a trip to the cities and go to the poor parts you will see things far worse than anything in Spain."

Might you be a bit more specific? I live in Baltimore--where if you are going to find poverty you would find it here. No one goes hungry here or in the USA. The US Department of Agriculture gives away tons of food nation-wide through its Domestic food assistance programs.

Citywide, local charities augment that by providing free meals to anyone who wants them. Here in Baltimore, one of the more active is the Catholic Charities.

Anyone suffering or dying from malnutrition in the USA would be front page news. It doesn't happen--unless one is too stupid to locate one of the many sources of free meals.
Cantabene

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: cantabene ]

Cantabene,

You're absolutely right. Eisenhower visited Spain in December of 1959, on a good will tour that was 19 days long, and included 11 countries.

I'd forgotten about that tour... sorry!

ex-Prez Jimmy Carter was there in September/October of 1998. He was there for dialogue with the Spanish government and ETA, in attempt to advance the fragile cease fire that existed. At that time, my wife and I had the opportunity of touring the Guggenheim museum with him and his family.

Wolf (Who's human too... don't shoot an endangered species! )

I've never seen a single "gitano" who was starving, but I saw many with gold jewlery and BMWs and Mercedes.
Spain gives away food for the poor people and they have houses were poor people is fed for free. Plus, the church has so many programs to help poor people, children, drug addicts...
I enrolled a program in US where you can sponsor a child, they have children from South America, Africa and US, I didn't see any from Spain

Toddy:

Sorry for writing so late, I was out of town.

First, as far as I know we have a lower percentage of temporary jobs than most of the developed countries (including USA), besides, part-time work is practically unknown here, what is a nuisance.

Those agreements including subsidies, were negotiated when there was no plan on the table that more partners would join the EC, as we want them to join, but a veto minority may be easily formed, it will have to be negotiated again.

There are very few sectors where professionals need to go to the USA to be able to work, the most known is biologysts (my brother is one).Due to the demands of the students we have too many first class universities on Biology, Genetics, Microbiology, for our small Biochemical market. However, I am a M of Arts in Bussiness Adminstartion working in the Telecomunications industry, and I had the possibility both of getting work and Green Cards with little difficulty, but I didn't obtain much with the change, for life is 2 to 3 times as expensive and I would earn 2 to 3 times more. And I would be out. Not so many people need/want to go (from Spain).

Yes, many of the inmigrants, who come to Spain do the works we don't want to do - same as in any other country - but in soon they have documents - unlike other countries - only by finding a job and suscribimg to the Social Security system, and in 2 years they have a permanent permit , in 4 years if latinos, they can have nationality. Soon, many of them get better jobs or start small bussinesses.

As far as I know, what Brazil and Argentina did was a "reservation", they did not "buy" yet.

My plan for retirement was created about ten years ago, but there was another institution before, that my father was subscribed to, aged more than 20 years (maybe 30), so it is not new here. What I wanted to point out is that the age of population is not a problem for those countries where there are such plans.

Gitanos is the name of a race. One can not speak of what happens to a whole race like you do.

The very small percentage that are beggars or thieves are the kind of that never would attend a school, and they do not need anything to eat, they take it. Today my mom told me of a couple of them stealing in a shop. These kid's adults are in drugs traffic, so I am not surprised by what has been said of good cars and gold watches.

Giving free breakfast and lunch is a good idea, but it is only needed in countries or groups of population who can not make ends meet, they don't need it here. Nobody is hungry. And we help a lot of countries with food.

I don't know what a SUV is, but not even one in a thousand of the cars is made in America here. By the way how can you pretend that you have been to Spain? what you say evidences lack of knowledge of the country's situation.

What is the "Cinco de Mayo"? Is it supposed to have anything to do with Spain?

How many jobs are there for public teachers? There are very few positions for thousands of teachers. The US has taken in thousands of teachers from Spain because they couldn't find a full-time teaching position in a public school in Spain. Only one in a thousand cars may be American, but how many are Spanish?

The economic reality is Spain is still higher on the unemployment scale in comparison with most EU member states and with the US. It still relies heavily on foreign companies to provide work for its people.

But, my main point, is that both the US and Spain have first world problems. Maybe different problems, but not better or worse.
Raising anti-American sentiment will only hurt the Spanish economy as the largest investor outside the EU in Spain is the US.

I don't think that Spaniards should have to leave Spain to find work. More Spaniards leave Spain for other EU countries and the US to find full-time work than come into Spain from these countries to find full-time work. Spanish economists would agree that strengthening US/Spain ties would help Spain's economy.
I think that leaving the EU and joining the soon to be AFTA would really help Spain be a master of her destiny. No longer they would have to follow the dictates coming from France and Germany. I believe that because they are the mothers of the Spanish language and have a highly educated populace, they would be afforded an equal partnership with the US in this new agreement.
This, I understand, would be a new "worldview" for Spain and Spaniards.
But, through open minds, anything is possible! Viva los Amigos grandes Espana y The United States!

On my last trip to Spain , just over a year ago , I drove around Andalucia , Granada , Ronda , Malaga and eventually to Madrid , and I must say that I have not seen as many 'poor' people anywhere else as I saw in the little villages and towns on my travels.
Including 'the gypsies' especially in Granada area. One can sense a 'quite an ethnic charge' re; gypsy , or Roma issue in public debate .Anyway , US has the worlds richest 'poor' people , biggest SUVs , most TVs and so on and so on and so on , everybody else wants what we have but are afraid to say it in public.
Let's face it , Spain's best hope for strong and vibrant economy in future is close trade relationsship with US.
Euro is in the tank and stays there for the , at least , near future , so no help from EU connection.

Hi Zzeus.

I think our best hope is to have comerce with EU, US and lathynamerica One doesn't exclude the others.

EU has given us a lot of money (thousands of billions pesetas) which we have used to build roads, improve our railways and our cities. In exchange europeans have obtained a market of 40 million people, and a great place to have vacations

US has not given us money directly (I think we were the only european country which didn't get any money from Marshall's Plan), but has had a lot of comerce with Spain. Also, all american bases (Rota, Torrejón, ...) have given us both money and knowledge. I see a very good relationship in the near future, now that Spain is getting known by most americans.

With the rest of America (lathynamerica) we have very strong cultural bonds. They are our brothers We have obtaind from them a wide market for our goods, and in exchange they have benefited of our technology and from the creation of richness and work there.

In regard of euro, do you really think it is bad for us? Perhaps for the common spaniard it is (because any american good is very expensive) but for us as a country is great. Think that our goods are very cheap for you just because the dolar-euro parity is as it is. When you come here you find that all is cheap, so it is also good for the tourism.

I believe, however, that in the near future the euro will increase its value (when it phisically existed).

As you see, there is no reason to exclude noone from the comerce. The best is to have good relationships with all the world and benefit of what they can give us while trying to give the best of us.

Toddy:

- In Spain there are thousands of positions for public teachers, however, it is true that we form a lot more than we need. This is the result of a good cheap public University. Everybody can study. the bad about it is that no country needs such a high percentege of graduates.

I would say that 9 cars out of ten are spanish, since they are produced here - we are the 10th world producer of cars, and we export cars to many countries. Ford, Opel, Renault, Volkswagen, Audi, ...
The rest are Korean, Japanese and Americans.

Spain does not rely on foreign companies to provide work. When these companies came here, they usually did not create factories in the fields, but rather bought, because they thought it was an interesting investment for them, existing firms and factories. However, I can not see the point in discussing this matter since each day a little bit more, no matter the bad moments, like this one, the EC is more like a Country itself. If you went to France, you could see german, british, italian firms making bussiness and creating employment there, also a tiny presence of spanish, like Zara, Mango, Endesa (soon). It is like if you said that Washington (State) needs investments from New York to create employment. Money is free to come and go, and it goes where it obtains more profit.

You cannot rely on statistics to measure employment. You should be here and see who is unemployed aound you, and how the prices of apartments grow (because people has money,through work), or see your friends being "unemployed" and working.

I do not have antiamerican feelings, nor I think my people have nowadays, but one that is different to artificially trying to improve them basing it in supposed gifts given or leaders love for each other (having met very few times).
I think the USA are a great country no matter that I see things I don't like at all, like I see others in Spain.

Spaniards do not have to leave Spain to have a work , they have to, to have a work according with their goals. We are ambitious, our parents help us to go to the University, for they want us to be better and richer, so, there are engineers earning 1.000 $ a month, who could easily earn 2.000 i. e. reapairing or installing air conditioning or heatings, but they want (it is their choice, and I respect it) to work as engineers.

I have friends who have their degree as teachers and work as postmen. It is not a defect of the system ,since we have a lot of teachers working, but it is like a luxury (I don't know if we will be able to afford much longer) that everybody can study what they want (it's unexpensive), no matter that the markets don't demand it. There is a system called "oposición", an exam, where only the very best are accepted for public teaching. But still they can have another work.

I know it is very differnt in the USA, for there it is so difficult to pay for the Univ. that the few graduates have always a work (no matter if they are good or just average) according with their studies.

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Zzeus11:
The areas you have gone through are the most economically depressed in the country (but for Madrid). They don't have anything but the tourism bussiness.

It is like trying to see how the States are, going to Alaska. Ronda is a place that is typical, because bands of robbers had their headquarters there, because, as the result of the lack of resources, people was desperate there (bandoleros), and because it was in a montain area. You only had to go to Extremadure to see the poorer tour of the country.

However, I don't think you saw much poverty in the provinces' capitals, like Málaga, or Granada, nor would you see it in Badajoz or Cáceres.

Gypsies have, as a race, a nomad way of living. Some of them have assimilated, specially in the south. You can ask spaniards what they think about gypsies, and most will not say any good, but they are not speaking of all of them, everybody respect the honest ones, those who work for their living.

Unfortunately, those who live very well on begging, stelaing, robbing, or with drug traffic have become more notorious. They are a minority, but still they are quite a lot. It is sait that about 400.000 gypsies live in Spain.

What do you think about colombians? And I am pretty sure many of them are honest and work for their living.

I personally don't need anything extra from the states. I have my sports car (Hyundai-Korean), my TV sets - at my room and the living-room- (which is enough for me for I can not see 4 TVs at a time), and I do not envy anyone.

Euro is the answer for our future, a step forward in the process of becoming a country of several nations.

As for trade, I am for it, but I would not like such a relationship like the USA-UK, where the poor british haven't had a foreign policy of their own until Blair was elected, and still they follow the USA a lot, with very few independence. Besides, that has moved them away from their natural connections with Europe, making them have their economic cycle asociated to the North American one, which creates problems to unify economic policies in the EC.

Something for the pro EU's to think about:

Basque and Irish Insurgents Cast Doubt on
EU's Future 16 July 2001 By George Friedman

Summary
The European experiment of the new century cannot be declared a success until it has weathered a massive economic downturn. Individual European states today are
prepared to subsume their national aspirations for economic gain. But with recent economic decline in Europe, the question of what or who can hold the European
Union together remains unaddressed.
Analysis Over the weekend, Basque nationalists of the Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (ETA)separatist movement killed two officials in a well-planned strike at separate
targets 12 miles apart. At the same time, Britain's MI-5 broke up an operation of
the Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA) to secure weapons and sponsorship fromIraq.

These two incidents, part of persistent Basque and Irish insurgencies, are in many ways more significant to the long-term prospects of European unification
than the disintegration of southeastern Europe into feuding ethnic states. They
challenge a widely held view that long-term economic growth will end nationalist
friction and marginalize the internal dissidents who could create future conflict.
The creation of a trans-European entity after the massive European bloodletting in the first half of the 20th century has been an extraordinary event. The founders of the European Community, later the European Union, explained it as a rational response to that bloodletting, based on two assumptions: First,leaders on the Continent agreed that another round of fighting could annihilate
European civilization. Second, they assumed Europe is an inherently prosperous region. If the Europeans succeeded in building institutions to exploit their resources, they
could create unprecedented and lasting affluence. As the European Community demonstrated the success of the trans-national experiment, more and more states would wish to join in the prosperity and the relationship would deepen. More important, as the price for membership required that minor nationality issues, both internal and external, be set aside, it was
assumed that nationality issues plaguing individual states would subside.Whether this theory has been confirmed or not is more than a theoretical question. It goes to the heart of the European question and in turn to the future of the world. Recent signs of economic downturn in the economies of Western Europe indicate the long-term viability of the EU will be tested sooner rather tha later.

The ongoing nationalist insurgencies such as the Irish RIRA and Basque ETA stem from internal ethnic and political struggles more than from the economic prosperity that has defined most of the past decade. But the indirect connection is still relevant: If it was the prosperity facilitated by EU membership that helped marginalize these groups, a significant economic downturn could lead to their resurgence.Indeed, recent events in Italy, a member nation, and in Ireland and Austria, EU
observer nations, suggest that both economic and political pressures are building
against the EU goals of monetary and political integration.In Italy, the election of the conservative "Home of Freedom" coalition added a partner to the group of EU nations (particularly the United Kingdom, Spain and Ireland) who oppose the German-Franco move toward a formal, federalized Europe. It is also increasing the likelihood of continued challenges to the euro as a common currency. Likewise, Ireland and Austria have come under EU criticism for budgetary and political decisions that challenge the concept of European federalism.
Individual European states today are prepared to subsume their national aspirations for economic benefit. But if those benefits cease to exist, what will hold the union together?
When the monetary policy being pursued by the European Central Bank imposes austerity, as likely will happen sometime, that austerity will not be equally distributed. A monetary policy that benefits one European nation need not benefit others, and it is unlikely that it would.That will be the point at which European nationalism - currently limited to policy disagreements between national governments and the EU headquarters in
Brussels - will become significant again.
History shows that secession is the natural tendency during times of economic stringency. It will be at that moment that the ETAs and RIRAs of Europe will blossom again, combining primordial national sentiment with economic policy.The European Union is unprepared to deal with a system in crisis. Indeed, there is no institution on the Continent capable of preventing secession by current members, nor has this potential problem been addressed or even debated.When the North American Union faced the same issue in the late 1850s, the
question of secession was not settled until the Army of the Potomac seized the
strategic initiative at the Battle of Gettysburg. Within the European Union, who
will raise and command a force to protect the European Union? An Army of the -
Rhine?

George Friedman is the founder and chairman of STRATFOR.

For full text and grap

Al the written above, is actually affirming that the main enemies for the EU stability are the individual countries that are part of it. All the main reforms that have been proposed in the EU in the last years have been opposed effectively, anl left without meaning because of the influence and votes of the representatives of countries that whose interests were damaged by them.

Being that reasonable, the truth is that we can no longer be taking decissions this way, it would be like approving the budget of the USA and its distribution into a commision formed by the States. They would never come to an agreement. Polititians are prone to priorize their electors to the national/comunal interest.

Europe is an area whose differences in many aspects come from times when a country (subject to a "king" or "independent Warlord") was as long as his horse (and sword) could reach in a day.
There are Alsace and Lorraine, which are franco-german areas, there is the former West and East Germany both very different from each other, Ireland, and the stolen part, Northern Ireland, the northern areas of Italy (swiss influence), the isle of Corcega (don't know the name in English), Marseilles, Bretagne, in France, the flamish an valois areas in Belgium, ..., shall I go on?

We are spliteed in so many small pieces forced to fit in countries, that a country as the EU would be could be what we really need. Also, this way, the powerful national lobbies would become area lobbies (much smaller) or industry lobbies, or social lobbies, like in the USA.

The only government who is really doing the best for Europe is the Commitee of the EU (When they are allowed by the countries).

Long live to Prodi and his team.

Ignacio
You are right! The problem is the euro is almost here. Expansion is still taking place without such reforms. As crisis hits, as it does to every area of the world periodically, the European "union" will break apart. There are just too many holes. I believe that foundation of the EU is faulty and it has become fueled as a French way to "beat America" Look at France. It really needs the EU and especially Germany to maintain its status of the world stage. The French language is leaving, culture is being "americanized," and they have lost most of there colonies. This at a time of globalization and the French wanting to keep there 35 hour work week. One country leaving the EU now would destroy it.
I think Spain has the biggest card to play to date.
Spain could join NAFTA, soon to be AFTA and really take a leadership role in the world right alongside the United States.
A new world view, yes. But a very possible one that I think that Aznar is preparing the Spanish public for. Trust me on this, Aznar,Fox, and Bush have been having secret meetings involving this.
Keep watching the news, and pay close attention to Aznar's and your King's travels.

Well, Toddy- I see there's another STRATFOR.COM reader on this board.

You know, I started this thread, only to see it become a sounding board for recriminations and accusations about various issues in US-EU relations.

Now, it's back to discussing bilateral US-Spain relations, which was the original intent.

Very interesting and thoughtful analysis and discussion of Spanish-US relations in the years to come, an other related topics as well. Thanks to all for the information and opinion.

Toddy,

You are right that we are going through a rough situation that could endanger the EU strenghthening progress. However, the situation here is not bad, nor it seems to become so,mainly because of Euro..

Yes, because of the fact that the dollar has become so expensive, our exports have benefit from it, while we have only suffered from it because of petrol (rising prices paid in more expensive dollars).

Euro weakness has made our firms to be more competitive towards american and asian products in the market we sell 90% of our products - Europe.

This has preseved greatly our GNP grow within this global crises. As soon as petrol prices go down,and inflation moderates, we will have more drops of interest rates, and the GNP will recover (with it, employment, tax incomes, et al).

And the crises do not hit the same everywhere, the USA didn't suffer the recent Asia crises the way Korea or Thailand did, the mexican crise affected much more to the USA than to any other developed country, ...

The fact that France, Germany, Spain, Italy's languages are losing position in the world share of languages, that their culture (France) is americanizing, which is true, and so on, has nothing to do with the EU.

All the european countries have lost most of their colonies, those are only unwanted and expensive remaints of the past.

The french need to realize (their politicians do) that they are not a power of the same size as the States, the same happens with the U.K.. We spanish have been a second class power in Europe since Franco destroyed the country in 1936/39, so we have had a rude falling, but these countries have been slowly declining for a long time, and I think many people there don't know what power they have in the world.
They still think they are individual powers, they don't realize they are to be followers of the USA or partners in the only other power that can negotiate at the same level in Europe, the EU.

I agree that if a country left the EU today it would be a terrible menace to its future.

BTW, I will pay attention to Aznar moves, as suggested, but not to the King, since our constitution makes him Commander in Chief of all our armies and little more, he is mainly a public relations (and he does well, I am a republican, but I like him).

[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

You are right about the EU helping Spain. My point, is post EU. As the markets of Latin America increase (remember, since NAFTA, America's exports to Mexico have skyrocketed)the EU's leading companies' countries will have to look for more markets using cheap educated labor. At this time, the wages in Spain are one of the lowest in the EU. Once eastward expansion takes place these new eastern unionless workers will provide the EU cheapest labor that Germany and France need. Germany, in the next few years, needs about 50,000 new workers. Unless educated Spanish workers immigrate into Germany at a very high rate, the next best cheapest route is to set up factories in the east. With the amount of German and French companies presently raising Spains GNP through investment, it seems that EU expansion to the east could really hurt Spain. (not to mention the EU subsidies) I know the Aznar administration has pushed Germany to slow down expansion, but the economic reality is for the EU to get a couple more years of life against the Americas, eastern expansion, federalization of the EU, and a new EU tax have to be in the plans. From what I've read in the EU news, these "political balloons" have been floating for awhile to gear up the EU public to their eventuality.
My underlying cause in these points, is a Spanish relationship with the United States outside of the confines of the EU, would benefit both countries' futures (and the worlds)tremendously. Imagine the Spanish born companies that would gain advantage to an incredible amount of markets throughout the Americas. For example we would love to be drinking better Rioja over here than that over-priced French stuff. But this is only the beginning. All of those talented Spanish engineers would invent and construct new Spanish products that we all over here would be eager to buy. Politically, you would hold the key to the Spanish language and be inolved in every step of the AFTA expansion on an equal level. You have to admit that this a very timely and HUGE opportunity for Spain in the worlds' history. I hope that all of the elite running Spain see this historic opportunity, my optimistic beliefs say they do. It's our destiny.

toddy:

Sorry for the delay - too busy

I did not mean Euro was helping Spain, but the EU, making our exports cheaper and imports more expensive - stimulating internal markets, improving european producers' sales.

In spite of this difference, I think our positions are getting closer:

It is true that we are the cheapest/one of tha cheaper work forces in Europe (due to the lower cost of living, or, what is the same, a favourable peseta/euro parity).

The germans do not need 50.000 workers, they need many more. In the recent days I have seen that amount as the number of computing experts/workers that Germany will need in the next ¿5? years. What you have to add is that the rest of the countries in the UE and the USA need similar amounts too (USA a higher number, I suppose).

It is very true that emigrant workforce from Eastern countries and the possibility to inverst in those countries, by then members of the EU is a serious menace for spanish workers.

But, although there may always be national gov.'s pressures to multinational companies whose home offices are in their territory to fire people somewhere else, many times they follow their "maximize profit rule" and fire the most expensive/less productive ones, so I think that the main problem is going to be for the most expensive countries' labour force - Why do you think unemployment is increasing in Germany, while reducing in Spain?

About federaization, as you will know, there are many different opinions - even in the same country (i.e. Spain). About that tax: I think the EU needs more resources to develope their policies, but I'd rather reduce agricultural, coal, ..., subsides than set a new tax, no matter the low rate it would have. It could be a .5% more in ¿VAT?.

Maybe the language would be in an equal's level (considering spanih as a whole, not a crowd of dialects spoken the way each one wants), but the rest of the relations wouldn't be as equals. How could them be with a neighbour 20 times as big in extension? Triple, four times as much in incomes per person (only because of a wrong exchange rate, very healthy for us)? With such an army? With ...

Again, we would be your followers, just as the british were going to be before they re-discovered Europe a couple of years ago.

Here is the part of the American I don't think you understand. We look at Spain as a new equal ally in Europe. Many many Americans (not just Wynona Ryder, and many others in Hollywood) believe we can learn a lot from an equal partnership with Spain. Bush is pushing hard for this. He KNEW he would be ridiculed for his Spanish, but he stumbled through very humbly and this was very very symbolic.
I really believe that Bush, Aznar, and Fox understand their place in history. This is a new beginning in the world where both American and European arrogance has no place.
Where, through free trade, the first world can build their economy right along with the third world.
Latin America will be a showcase for Africa, India, China, and in many other regions of the world.
This is Spain's time for carpe diem (sieze the day)

Equality is here!
Apple and Terra Lycos
sign joint agreement
Not a takeover, but an undertaking!
Viva los Estados Unidos y Spain!

Well, I have gone thorugh it, it is in

writing Terra, and pushing the "Hechos Relevantes" button. Sorry it is in Spanish.
It is just another general agreement on possible developement of future services, just like the signed with Lucent, Microsoft, ...

By the way, Terra belongs to the Telefonica Group, and I have not heard of important results in these agreements. The one signed by Telefonica and Sprint/Worldcom didn't bring any result at all¡

However, I think (time will tell if I am right) that the one is going to be fruitful is the signed by Telefonica Móviles and Deutsche Telekom for roaming, which will allow T. M. use D.T. networks and not to need to build its own UMTS ones (it is supposed to save half of the 5.000.000.000 $ investment needed).

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]
COmisión Nacional del Mercado de Valores

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Ignacio, in the Very short term you are right. However, when the technology dust settles, you will see Apple make a move into Spain and thus prompt Microsoft to challenge. I will try to access more data on these moves. Roaming, by the way, is a thing of the past. Movils will take to the internet next and then direct to satelites. Roaming charges , of course you've seen lately, are under a lot of EU scrutiny (well with all that Brit roaming and Spanish credit card fraud).