This thread is incredibly enlightening! REALLY! I believe there are many misconceptions about present-day working Spaniards, particularly the young 20-30-somethings. It is definitely unfortunate that young, Spanish teenagers are seeing this for themselves as they prepare for adulthood, seeing their older brothers, sisters, friends without friends but with multiple university degrees. I imagine this brings a kind of resolution/frustration for them (the teenagers) that they may never have a good job or at least one in the course in which they study at the university. This kind of frustration can certainly bring about a number of social and economic problems for these youngsters AND subsequently, for their families.

And not to change or alter the topic here but only for some clarification to others (and for me!). Comparing the incomes of 20-to-30-somethings in Spain who are making 950-1100 Euros/month, what are the average 35-to-45-somethings making per month?

Saludos, MadridMan

Scroll down this page

http://www.tusalario.es/index.php?pid=93

to Graphic 2 and you'll see a table showing Spanish annual salaries before tax. I'll translate, vaguely, the microscopic key:

C - Mining; D-Manufacturing; E-Electric and gas industry; F-Construction; G-Commerce; H- Hospitality Industry. I-Transport; J- Business and Finance sector; K: estate agents and business services; M-Educatio; N-Health and Veterinary; O- Social services.

A person not on a permanent contract earns 70% of this rate. Women earn 70% of this figure, as a rule.

There's not much data on salary by age, though Graphic Number Four shows salaries according to how long someone has been working. We can surmise that someone working 10 years in a company (ie well into their 30s) earns around 30% more than someone in their 20s who's only been around for 3 or 4 years.

Conclusion: if you're a woman on a non-permanent contract (the norm when you're starting out) you're in trouble.

Well, the frustration in young spaniards is really huge, we are frustrated because we are working in "no qualificated" jobs, jobs like sells representative, telemarketing, secretaries, etc...
If you have studied Biology, Journalism, Sound and Image, Philollogy, Phisics, Mathematics,etc... it's almost impossible to work in what you have studied for.

About what is making a person in the 35-45 group age it depends of what his experience is and in what sector he works, and you have to understand that a lot of people around 30-35 are or are preparing competitives exams to become civil servants.
In Spain to be civil servant is very valued, they use to have a better salary and stability.
But I could say that a 35 years old worker with 5 years of experience is making 35% more than a 25 years old one.
Probably 1300-1700 euros/month.

I have to agree with the input that MM had on Nov. 5 on this thread. This is very enlightening.It is difficult for me to imagine the pay scale that is being posted for the young Spaniard.

Some of the jobs that were mentioned about the pay scale, let me run some US rates by you and see what you think. First someone mentioned that welders can earn about 2000 to 2500E per month. Compared to other jobs rate of pay that does not seem to be bad. I have a personal friend here in Arizona that has a portable welding set up on the back of his truck and goes around to farms and others who call ask for his services, his after tax net is approx $75,000 per year that he will admitt to. Knowing him I suspect it is higher, that he is pocketing some without reporting the full amount. That is dirty work, low status. One must remember that you cannot spend status. Plumbers are another one that has a dirty job, ever call a plumber with a backed up drain? There went at least $95 for the first half hour. Basicly he is sticking his hand in sewer line and pulling out a $100 bill. Any one of those trades listed in previous post would pay more here in the US than a grade school teacher would earn. In most cases more than a nurse with several years experience.

Then to add more salt to the wound, vallets at the strip hotels in Las Vegas average around $75,000 per year. A hustling cab driver in Las Vegas is cranking down $60,000 per year. So taking those things in mind I can understand the frustration that people have in Spain with their earnings and purchasing power.

This thread also shed light on the one that I started about "Something does not fit." I can understand how it would take everyone in the house working, just to make the daily cost of living.

No wonder the people of Europe think that Americans have life handed to us on a silver platter. My hat is off to those in Spain that are making it the best way they know how, and still raising a family on the low pay that is being offered.

It's noticeable here in the UK how many nurses, dentists, pharmacists come here to work from Spain (and now other countries like Poland). They can earn more here; the problem is that the cost of living is so much more expensive here. It can be a good experience for younger people but may not be an option for someone happy at home in Spain or with a family. Of course it is the best way to practise and improve your English!
If there are any Spanish posters thinking about working in the UK send me a private message and I'll help in any way I can. It may be a good way to gain new skills and perhaps save some money to start a business back home in Espana.

Yes, that's true: a plumber,a welder, a electrician...always are going to be in a good place of the payscale of every country.
The problem is that the spaniard payscale is really strange.

I have a friend who was paying his actor classes and way of living while working in a McDonalds fliping burguers: he is making 800 euros/month (around 900 dollars).

This is what are making my other friends, all between 25-29:

Pharmacist: 950 euros/month
Blue collar worker in a sawmill: 1200 euros/month
Doctor (first year in hospital): 1800 euros /month
Informatician: 1700 euros/month
Waiter: 1200 euros/month
shop assistant: 1000 euros/month
Secretary: 950 euros/month
Electrician: 1800 euros/month
Maths Professor at a private HS: 1500 euros/month

This is the problem: in Spain somebody who flips burgers is making 50%-75% the money that earns somebody with a software developer degree, I have read that in USA the average income difference between somebody who has a college degree and somebody who not is 145% in Spain only
19%.
Is the smaller difference of all developed countries.

Well,althought the payscale in Spain is absurd the cost of living is not so bad (but is geting worst), people in Spain don't need to save money to pay the college to theirs sons, don't need to pay daycares or medical insurances and things are cheaper so we need less money.
An exemple:
Somebody who earns 50.000 dollars per year in USA is an average person, here that's a HUGE income, somebody who cracks 50.000 dollars here can lunch everyday at a restaurant, buy a good house on the coast and a flat in the town and have a good car and a good college for his sons, and make a travel to australia or Japan each year.
Here there's dissapearing the home keepers, all the young couples work both members.
And they make the living more or less like that:
The boy earns 1500 after years earning less, and the girl makes 1200-1500, so they have 3000/oer month, they have been living with their parents untill 32 years old or even more (that's not only a question of money), it's a completly different lifestyle than in USA, in USA you could go to a disco being 27 and industrial engineering and talk with a girl and YOU NEVER will say that you are living with your mother because people who live with their parents are losers, here everybody supose you are living with your mother because everybody does (even doctors and architects), that's not only linked with housing prices and salaries but with the fact that in Spain there's a strange hedonism culture, where you have to go to the disco untill the 30s.
The sons pay a little % to their fathers and save the other to buy a flat with his girlfriend.
When they get married they pay the mortage with one salary and live with the other.




Well there's literally thousands of doctors, pharmacist, nurses, etc... that have moved to UK to work, but the problem with England is the price of things, I have read that almost all the people who went use to comeback in 2 years or 3 because, althought they use to like where they live (specially London and Scotland) it's difficult to save money.
In my opinion Spain is going to export more and more people with college degrees to countries with lack of some specific qualifacted workers like Sweden, Denmark, UK, and France, that's a very bad

Pippo: Let me ask you, are the people of Spain status consciuous as the people of the US.That is to say that welders, electricians and chefs are looked down upon by doctors, lawyers and other white collar proffessionals. Here education level and income level, are for the most part synonmous. I should also point out that I know many people that are just scrapping by with advanced degrees, and as I already mentioned, my friend that is a welder is doing very good for himself.

El Pais had an interesting article today about this. The article covered the extensive growth of internship and grants programs that most university and/or graduate degree candidates are invoved with prior to being hired and paid for a "real job". I'm all for internship programs and know the huge benefits for all parties. There is also extensive trade school internships set up -

I too am glad to see this topic dicussed. Last time I was in Madrid, my friend who works at a bank was lamenting over the fact of her long working hours (not being nosey I never asked if she was happy about her salary.) Basically, the idea of "siesta" is coming to an end, in the sleeping sense. She was saying w/ the dealing w/ all the other EU countries, its expected to grab a quick bite, then get back to the computer and business. Thus working basically a 12/hr day. after a few canyas Friday night she is always zonked out b/c she so tired! With regards to the US, sometime I thing advanced degrees are a little overrated (in the cases I will list below.) I've know some people who have been going to some sort of school since i've graduated from college (1997), who know how many student loans they have, they work part time etc. Meanwhile in that time I've started a business, bought/sold 3 houses etc...To practice medicine/law, I understand that requires post graduate studies, but I think some people go to school to avoid the real world! If I have offended anyone w/ this view, that is not my attempt, just a generalization based on my experience.

Well your question is a hard one, it has several implications.
Here people have status conscious but don't have the same level of "money conscious"...I'm going to try to explain me...
I remember that one year ago I was reading the espn internet site reading about the nba scores and suddenly poped up an adversiment of a singles site to search partners... the adversiment said that you could search your other part telling which color of eyes, hair height, weight, income per year etc... you wanted... and that shocked me...I thought people in USA search a boyfriend by the money he earns??
I don`t know, last year while I was living in Madrid I knew a guy from Providence that said me that there's a percentage of women in USA that only couls accept a husband who earns a fixed numer of money per year? That amazed me again...
It could be possible?
But I remembered the theories of Max Webber, he said that the protestants countries are richer than the catholics ones because the protestants think that work is a blessing, that you can create with your hands the paradise on the earth, that you only need faith in god to go to heaven.
But catholics think the work is a god punishment based on the original sin: "You will earn your bread with your forehead sweat"... so they have to confess themselves, their sins, they have a pessimistic way to see the world, and while protestants admire the rich people because they have been succesful in life, they have created with his determination and hard work a "paradise in the earth" to their families on the other hand in the catholic countries people don't see the rich people as somebody who admires, like the bible say: "the last ones will be the first ones"...that means the rich aren't admired, or at least not admired like in a protestant country.

But exists a conscious status in Spain?
Yes, exists, but not in the way that it exists in the USA.

I think in Spain is more based in education, people respect intelligent men and women look for good genetics for their future sons, but in USA (correct me, maybe I'm wrong) people use to respect more other men who have money.
But even this way the conscious status is not as strong in Spain than USA because here there no exist the same "culture of success than in USA".
In USA people live separeted, people has private HS and college, people start to be separeted since very young, in Europe 85% is public, is the same for everybody, in USA a Doctor could say about his neighbour "he is a loser" (because he is a waiter) and it could be a serious insult.
I couldn't think about my neighbour who is a doctor by the way saying that a man who lives in my street is a loser, and even if he said that nobody could understand what is he talking about... " a loser??... what means that??"

In my opinion there's not conscious status is not as strong in Spain than in USA, and is based more in culture, and intelligence...


Well siesta in Spain is dead, that's for sure, I even read the last week that somebody in the Bank of Spain said that in less than 10 years the spaniard afternoon break will disapear to make the work schedule the same than in the other countries of Europe.
We are working too much, we are the 3- 4 country in world who work more hours, only USA and Japan work more but we are not earning the same.
Here people have money because they are selling lands to foreigners and renting old houses to immigrants so the have more than 1 income in the house, but talking only about salaries, they are not good.
In Spain, the smart people open a restaurant or a construction business.