I have done some studying and have made some conclusions that are contrary to common beliefe 1st of all even though every one on this site probably knows this Spanish people are ethnicaly European are therefore white and it is not un common to see many Spanish people with blonde hair blue eyes etc. The majority of Spain is white. The often romantized view of Andalusians is that they have alot of Moroccan blood but this is actually untrue al though Andalucian culture is greatly influenced by the Moroccans most Andalu. are white and alot of them have Castiallian blood because of the immigration to southern Spain after the reconquest in other words Spanish people are white "but".... with all this immigration from Morocco and the fact that Moroccan women reproduce offspring alot faster then Spanish women eventually Spains minority will be white. That is why Spain complains about Morocan illegal immagration so much we Spaniards do not want to see our ethnic back ground erased.

With all due respect I don't agree with you Quintos.

Arab invaders were just 50,000 with native inhabitants of the Peninsula being 17 million. It is normal that, though these two populations mixed between them, the native ethnic characteristics imposed over the arabs.

No matter than in general we are white, we are browner than the rest of europeans (and proud of it).

For all its history Spain has received lots of different ethnias which have changed its culture and blood for the worse (as visigoths) or better (as moslems) attending on which was the most developed culture at the moment.

It is not difficult to find here spaniards with blond hair and blue eyes, nor with arab aspect. Celts, ibers, tartessos, romans, visigoths, alans, suevos, berebers, sudaneses, almohads, almorabs, arabs, french, italinas, american indians, equatorial africans,... What we are now is due to all these cultures and ethnias.

The problem with moroccians has nothing to do with its color skin. If 100 years ahead we have browner skin... so be it. The problem is that (as every european country) we are absorbing a great amount of different people who have different customs. It is normal that there are problems at the beginning, but give it years and they will become 100% spaniards no matter how their skin.

Perhaps we can enrich once more our blood and our culture (though all these are not obviously the best representatives of their own cultures).

Fernando

Fernando I agree with you(except for the visgoths). I am studying in sevilla and I am black. My skin complexion is brown. There are spaniards here who are darker than I am. I think many people here are surprised that my complexion is close to theirs as opposed to the darker africans that they see here. Many times spaniards will ask me if I am from cuba. One other thing that I have found here is that many spaniards will talk about the celebration of the jewish , arab and iberian cultures and how diverse it is. The question is, do you embrace those cultures? are you friends with people from those cultures? another thing, it is not uncommon to hear comments like, look there goes a chinese(when i am with spanish friends) I am offended and i am not chinese. This place in many ways is like the u.s. in the thirties and forties. The other day there was a cartoon on spanish television which depicted africans as tribal people with big lips. If this were shown on tv in the u.s. there would have been a riot. By the way I am not saying that all spaniards are racists, but what i am saying is that the negative perceptions of blacks starts with the young and it is a part of this culture without many people recoginzing it, it is like a second nature. It not uncommon for a spaniard to tell a joke about a moreno in front of me. As a matter of fact many of the jokes i have heard here are about blacks. Many people say that the moors weren´t black. What is this preoccupacion with blacks then? I just want to be around positive people who are willing to accept me for who I am and not people who are concerned about the purity of their blood or their social status. I would like spaniards to respond. This is not a witch hunt. There are a lot of good things in spain. I personally think it is the most interesting country in europe given it¨s history etc(actually my professor said that europe stars in the pyranees). but there is also the bad part and things have to change just as in the u.s. It is not about the U.S. or europe anymore, it is about the world.

Matador, you have a point there.

I have friends from Sweden, Iran, Puerto Rico (half black),...

We must consider some facts when judging apparent racism in Spain.

First: United States is a hiper-sensitive country in what concerns the handling of language, so we can't judge spanish behaving with american rules extrictly.

Second: Ethnic or racial minorities in the States (if I recall well) are up to the 40% of the total population, while in Spain ten years ago didn't reach 1%, and even now doesn't rise above 5%. Seeing a chinese, and pointing at him, is not a matter of racism but curiousity for the uncommon (in general i say...).

Said this, I thing that we spaniards should have more respect for minorities (though I wouldn't like to reach US standards of politically correctness).

Spaniards make jokes (chistes) of anything particularly different. You know the environmental disaster of Galicia? I have heard yet of three jokes based on it (some of them cruel). Does it mean we don't mind what happens? No, today I have heard that there are volunteers to cover turns of work to clean the beaches until February, and that the galaecian government is asking people to cease to call because there is no more place for volunteers. It has something to do with our way of being: we are able to laugh in the worse situations, and laugh at everything.

I really believe that we are not a racist or xenophobic country in general; no matter how it may seem, at heart almost noone would deny help to anyone who asks for it (no matter his skin color) nor would consider they are worse for being of other country.

In France the ultra-right has 20% of the votes, in Austria 15%, in other countries a less percentage (but significant), in Spain fascist xenophobic parties has (all of them) 10,000 votes (of 25 million possible).

Fernando

I think we have talked about this more times. In my point of view, in Spain, discrimination is more related to social reasons than to races. Also the appearance and the external aspect. I watched a Spanish film not long ago called El traje, I didn't like very much, but it's about a black african inmigrant of low class who gets a suit by casuality. You see how different people treat a person just because they're dressed with suit and tie.
Of course there's much more to talk about this.

My point exactly, miguelito. why do I have to prove anything to anyone. This reminds me of an experience that I had a few years ago in boston. It was new year´s and I had on a suit and tie and nice shoes. I was in front of a hotel waiting for a taxi. some whites came up to me and said can you call me a taxi. I don´t think it is the suit it is the person. For some reason some people have decided that this is the only role that blacks or other minorities should have. I talked about this same topic with a gentleman from france who lives in cadiz. He said spaniards or europeans are only used to seeing people in these roles, if you are chinese you must own a restaurant, if you are a black african or a person from peru you are either selling those bootleg cd´s or scarves and clothes on the street. God forbid that you might actually have an education or be interested in the art of europe or the things that whites like. This is my point exactly fernando. God forbid that you might show some sensitivity to your fellow human being when you come in contact with them and out of respect not make derogatory jokes. Is this really the european way. So many people here talk about their education and how much harder it is in europe. They talk about the foreign policy of the u.s. and how it is inadequate. Yet where is the leadership from europe(this cultured society with such a great history). it is almost non existent. I don´t necessarily agree with bush on many things, but where are the voices here. There is alot of talk here about human rights, where is it. In sevilla i hear this statement that this is a traditional society. I hate traditions because it only preserves the status quo. Traditionalists don´t change the world, people who go against the grain do.

Amen Matador. That is something USA can be proud of (leadership). I'm quite critic with other things I dislike, but I totally agree with you.

Traditions are good, as long as they aren't bad to certain people. If we spaniards have to change some of our customs (and we are doing it), so be it.

Fernando

I dont believe Spaniards are racist hahahaahahahaa the Spanish people (incase u dont know) are usually very accepting and are extremely nice they are not conforntive at all (usually) there are in general some of the nicest people on the face of the planet but I do understand that there is racism in Spain a year ago I went to a small town some town near Cuenca I think there was some grafitti(some thing thats all to common in Spain)thats anothere thread.. it said VIVA ESPANA except for the "S" was a swachtica or a nazi symbol I have also seen other racist graffiti so even though I haven't ran into any racist people I know they exist just like in every other european country. Im not against legal immagration but I am against illegal immagration becaise the illegal make money by pick pocketing etc. u know the story any ways I dont hate Gypsies but I have to admit point blank that I am a little racist against them mainly because they live in a trashy enviroment and make Spain look like some third world country in Africa I mean the Spaniards aren't the only ones that need to change there customs the Gypsies need to change there tradition of living in dumpsters and tin homes and trashy trailers because they make the country look bad now if it was there own country they can live which ever way they want but in a democratic EU member NATO member etc. We cant have third world towns out side of Madrid now I do understand some Gypsies are succesfull and stuff and good for them but the "trashy" gypsie like ways of Gypsies need to change thats all I have agaisnt them there trashines and there thiefenes. I dont hate them in any way I just dislike there life style not the people so dont call me Spains hitler. I think that was Franco any ways saludos. One more thing Fernando u mention Italian and french etc. but you forgot the British they are storming down in the millions now theres even a place around or in Costa de Sol now called "little England" the coast of Spain is basically ethnicaly British. They have bilingual schools in Spanish/English so wouldn't this be culture "enrichment" not that learning English is bad because if you know English and Spanish your "dialed" basically. But I believe it was more for British convinence of not having to change there language when living in Spain any ways ive talked about this before so ill leave it at that.(in great respect to the Gypsies that added so much culture to Spain).

Thank you Matador. I'm haven't been on the website in a while and glad I came. I'm so glad you brought this topic up. Like yourself, I'm African-American college student currently attending Hampton University in Virginia. Last year, I had the pleasure to travel to Spain with 22 of my classmates. The trip for the most part was excellent except for some places. I know that most of Spain is a homogenous society so when we first landed in Madrid the staring begun. We were there for 2 weeks and went all over the country. Madrid was awesome but when we arrived in Carceres, I noticed that people were staring, pointing, laughing, and what not. To me, this wasn't racism but a culture shock. I believe they hadn't seen that many Blacks together at one time and the fact we dressed like we were from the States made the stares more. Overall, I think its a matter of what people environment are and their beliefs. If a person never seen a black american before, it will be more of curoisity I think rather than straight racism

Yes! I've finally gotten Fernando to prove through his own statement that Basques are NOT Spanish! I offer the following quote from Fernando:

italics added

Nowhere in this direct quote from Fernando will you find a reference to "Basques", as he refers to all the groups that make up Spain (referred to here as "we"). I knew that you'd eventually come around and see things my way. Let this be a bridge to further understanding and concession.

Sincerely,
CaliBasco, Official MM Rabble-rouser :p

Quintos233, you are against illegal immigration, but for legal immigrants? What happens when you don´t allow legal immigration? Spain authorized some 30,000 work visas to be given out to Non-EU citizens. It has given out less than half. The official line was that businesses just didn´t want to hire foreigners. Yeah, right. Be careful about the distinction between illegal immigrants and legal immigrants, there might not be much of a difference. I´m an illegal immigrant in Spain as I am sure that many other people who read this message board are or have been in going to Spain to teach English.

It is amazing how easy is to make demagoguery thousands of miles away through the deaths of others, isn't it?

Fernando

What do you mean Fernando. CalliBasco what up with ur nationalistic views you must understand modern Europe doesn't need your nationalistic views or any other Basques nationalistic views because it doesnt matter the Basques lost the war and were conquered period just like Gibraltar was conquered by the Brits and is British. Oh yeah and Callibasco if you dont think any ethnic trading has been happening between the Basque and the rest of Spain for the last few hundred years you are wrong.

Does anyone have a sense of humor on this board? Quintos, since you're a #3000+ member, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...just relax and observe unless I mention you. I'm just having a little fun with Fernando. He's used to it, and tries to dish it back whenever appropriate. I expected a little more leeway from a fellow Calforniano...

Nowhere did I mention (here we go again...yet again misunderstood by another MMer...damn this is getting viejo) nationalism, Basque separatism, ETA or anything else...I simply made reference to Fernando's post and the curious omission of an ethnic group that happens to fall partially within Spain's current political boundaries...and one that he usually goes out of his way to mention in the same breath as all other Spaniards...

I thought that my addition of the and the would clarify the tongue-in-cheek nature of my post, but apparently sarcasm and a good poke in the ribs is somewhat lost on some frequenters to these fora.

Geeez!

P.S. Gora Euskadi...we will be free...bla bla bla...yadda yadda yadda...euskadin askatasuna...yippee dippee... Does everyone understand that this is the sarcastic portion of the post? ¿está claro?

Cristal clear! It was an unfortunate omission, watch out Cali, I will return back :p

Fernando

...aquí te espero, majo...

Oh so you were being sarcastic so was I heheheehehehehee CaliBasco so basically your sayng I take things to seriously? on this forum hmm I think you may be right......

Fair enough...actually I have a very serious question about your initial post:
I'm under the assumption that all women reproduce at the same rate everywhere. What ethnic superpowers do these amazing Moroccan women have that allow them to have babies more frequently than every 9½ months?

Is it something in the water? Inquiring minds want to know! :p

If you're making an empirical statement, you may want to reference the fertility rates of the countries. Spain's is just slightly higher than 1.0. Of course birthrates in Morocco are a topic for the "Non-Spain" fora. I'm only assuming that's where this deviation is headed.

Oh yeah, Gora Euskadi or whatever.

People are people. Good and bad and a whole lot in-between. My wife is Ecuadorian, I am a tallish (for here), very white (Irish/Swiss) Anglo. We get a LOT of stares when we are in public together (all the time), especially from gentes majores. We have had blatant cases of racism to deal with, especially when looking for an apartment, but then we also have had the very best, most wonderful dueños (landlords). Our present dueños, like our previous ones are more like family than anything else, and live below us (the last set lived above us!), and I would not trade them for anyone! My point is that you cannot control other peoples' reaction to you, just your reaction to them. That is the only control you have, and it is enough.

Hi,

About inmigration and Basque and this kind of things, I have a curious happen.

Two different person living on a Basque town, one was Morocan inmigrant and the other from Extremadura (supossed non-inmigrant, at least not for a foreign "country").

The Morocan was learning Basque, has Basque friends, etc. The man from Extremadura wanted nothing about Basque language, culture, etc and his friends were exclusively people like him.

A day, there was an enfrentation between the Morocan and the Extremaduran, and at the end, the Extremaduran man told to the Morocan:

- ¡Vete a tu país puto moro! (go to your country ****ing morish)

Another thing, about if we, Basques, are Spanish or not, first of all tell that there are Basque in the North (France) and South (Spain) that have the same language, culture and history.

Well, every people have each own opinion, and in the Basque Country there are people with different opinions, I mean political opinions. We have to be respectful with it.

For instance, when I go to a foreign country and I say that I am from the Basque Country answering to the typical question of "where are you from" I have never had any bad answer, with one exception: Spanish people.

Regards,

Aitor

I am ashamed that Spanish people are disrespectfull to Basque but I must say im a little affended by them. I mean in general Basques want nothing to do with me and my country(Spain) and I find that insulting.

I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing País Vasco for myself for the first time in April!!!

Speaking of Pais Vasco the February, 2003 edition of Condé Nast Traveler magazine, page 142, had a full page, glorious photograph from a room of the Hotel de Londres y de Inglaterra. It shows the view from room 322 of the beautiful Playa de la Concha in San Sebastian (Donostia in Basque). Here's a photo of the Hotel!


The view in the photo is truly stunning, facing the beach! The article is brief, a few paragraphs, the photo takes up most of the page. The Hotel is located at 2 Zubieta, San Sebastian 20007. Tel: 34-943-4407-70. Rates doubles range from 120 to 180.
Here is the hotel's Web site

MadridMan, I cannot wait for your report of Pais Vasco. My grandmother told me that she and her sisters spent part of the Summer months in San Sebastian. She said that in the 1920's it was the place to go in Spain in the summers, it had been made famous in the 1880's by Queen Maria Christina, who put in a casino, now the City Hall. The Queen was probably tring to emulate the success of Nice and Monaco during the Belle Epoque!

I was in the Basque Country in September last year and visited Bilbao (where I was based) Santander, San Sebastian and Vitoria. It was wonderful. On approaching the Basque coast on the flight from London the view was stunning; lots of steep hills and deep green valleys. I was wondering where we were going to land as the didn't seem to be anywhere flat enough for an airport! San Sebastian and Santander were both lovely with great beaches and both are very elegant and classy resorts. Vitoria was nice with a beautiful square near the station and a lovely medieval quarter. Apparently the tapas in San Sebastian are the best in the country.

Though Santander is a beautiful as San Sebastian and has the same northish style, it doesn't belong to the Basque Country. It is the capital of Cantabria

Fernando

Thanks Fernando, I'd forgotten that:) BTW, can anyone tell me how to add photos to the postings? I see Booklady's done so a little bit further up.

Hi Bricamb,

It's simple. Place your pointer on the image you wish to transfer ( or copy), then right click on your mouse, a menu appears, click on the action that says "properties", then a screen appears and it will give you the propreties of the image including the URL address of the image. You then copy that URL address.

Then when you post at MasdridMan's, at the bottom you will see a button named IMAGE. Push it and a screen will pop up, there you paste the URL of the image and that's all there is to it!

Enjoy!

My parents want to go to the Basque region next time we go to Spain I must say it is exciting but do you guys think we should keep the we are from Madrid saying down Any ways is it cooled up there during summer too.

Q: I wouldn't worry too much about divulging your big Madrileño secret in Bilbao. Half the city isn't from Euskadi either...and tourism is tourism.

Those who would seek to damage that tourism are the ones who go around with tales of horror having beset the out-of-towner who let slip that they were in from out of town. Of course the old M or B license plates were a dead giveaway. What most people fail to remember is that the regional castellano dialect is a "deader" giveaway.

Go to Bilbao and enjoy...!!!