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#53268 - 11/03/02 02:20 PM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Quote:
During Franco dictatorship the repression against nationalism
That's my point. Franco was pre-occupied with controlling nationalism and maintaining Spain's weak economy. Therefore, Franco was apathetic, at best, to the jews entering his country.

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#53269 - 11/03/02 05:44 PM Re: Franco
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Apathetic? As I have heard he gave explicit orders to his ambassadors to protect jews. Spanish embassies in Europe brought here thousands of jews claimning them as sephards.

This thread is missing some points I think. Everywhere in the Pyrenees you may find thousands of bunkers from the Franco's times, which were built during the WWII because Franco was sure that Hitler would end invading Spain. Franco was not fascist. Franco was franquist. And through all his dictatorship he made use of the spanish fascists when he needed to, and kick them from the government when he wanted to.

As far as I know his represive measures were fusilating republican officers (and soldiers) and criminals of war (on the republican side). Since the end of the war the measures consisted on things as prohibiting the use of basque or catalonian, jailing communists (and other ideologies members), and restricting many kinds of freedom. Yes, he was a dictatorship and he did many bad things, but comparing him to Hitler or Mussolini is not accurate.

Would Spain have entered the WWII we would have been completely harrased by the allies, and we wouldn't still conserve our monumental capital. Franco, for one thing or another, didn't make Spain enter that horrible war, and sent the Blue Division (made of volunteers) to aid Hitler in the russian front (casually? or was it intended?). He achieved two things by sending it: give Hitler a symbolic aid (against Stalin's communists) and sending far away the most reactionary and extremist spanish fascists which he had at the end of the war.

The spanish civil war was horrible. And the winners did many horrible things to the losers (would the republicans have won, they would have done the same), but we should honour every spaniard and forgeiner who lost his or her life in that war, not just depriving a side of the honour to give it to the other side. Nor the republicans or the nationals were saints. I could mention true barbarities commited by both bands (for example the Gernica bombing by the nationals, or the blood-bath at Paracuellos del Jarama by the republicans, in both cases thousands of inocents were massively killed).

Fernando

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#53270 - 11/03/02 09:06 PM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Quote:
Apathetic? As I have heard he gave explicit orders to his ambassadors to protect jews.
Could I get a source on that? confused

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#53271 - 11/04/02 10:22 AM Re: Franco
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Madrid, Spain
If I had a source I would have posted it wink It is something I have readen elsewhere. I think I read it in a press article when the Spielberg's movie Schindler's List was released.

Fernando

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#53272 - 11/04/02 10:34 AM Re: Franco
fmiketheman Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 317
Loc: ny,ny
hello everybody

the reason franco helped jews into spain is because alot of them are sephardic and to franco that meant they were to some degree "spaniards" (because of there pre-1492 origin from spain).also because of this fact he thought they deserved to be treated as spaniards and welcomed in spain.that could possibly be the reason why shortly after the facist spain period the treaty that expelled jews from spain was abolished.

but i also i agree with the person who commented that another reason is because he was probably of close jewish descent himself.i mean what else would push a staunchly devout and somewhat intolerant roman catholic as himself see these jews in such a good light.
_________________________
fmiketheman

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#53273 - 11/05/02 11:21 AM Re: Franco
Cristobo Carrín Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Asturias
Back to the topic
This last saturday I could read a recent update on the matter of mass graves from the Civil War. The association of relatives and friends of Oviedo mass grave (Asociacion de Familiares y Amigos de la Fosa Comun de Oviedo) asked the Autonomous community of Asturias to unbury some 200 of the corpses, as their relatives have asked to be allowed to bury them properly. The mass grave is placed beneath the modern parking of the graveyard, and some 1700 people lie there, those who were shot short after the end of the siege of Oviedo in 1937, plus 155 people who died in prison not long later.
Asturian parliament has agreed, EXCEPT THE POPULAR PARTY, which claims this will "renew old wounds".
The "peperos" will never end amazing me. How cynical a human being can eventually be, after all?
See all the topic at http://www.lavozdeasturias.com/noticias/noticia.asp?pkid=20949

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#53274 - 11/05/02 06:27 PM Re: Franco
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1680
Loc: U.S.A.
I was doing a bit on research on Toddy's question about sources on Franco's assistance to Jews escaping the Nazis and found the following citation to a Newsweek article in a website that was selling a book about Franco, and I did find that the quote was genuine:
Quote:
Newsweek, March 2, 1970 page number 53.

Rabbi Chaim Lipschitz of Brooklyn's Torah Vodaath and Mesivta Rabbinical Seminary states:
" I have absolute proof that Franco saved more than 60,000 Jews during World War II."

He adds: "the stories of how Franco went out of his way to get Jews out of concentration camps are fantastic."

"One of the most dramatic stories, the rabbi has uncovered concerns a telephone call Franco made to Hitler on Jan. 8, 1944. The Spanish leader demanded that 1,242 Jews scheduled for extermination in the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp be released and sent to Spain."

" Rabbi Lipschnitz argues that the Generalisimo's concern for Jews antedates World War II. In October 1923, he says , 30 year old Lt. Colonel Franco, then commander of the Spanish Foreign Legion in Morocco, deluged his government with memos pleading for protection for the thousands of Sephardic Jews who had migrated to Morocco. The Spanish government decreed in 1924 that any Sephardic Jew in the world was entitled to Spanish citizenship upon request."

"Why was Franco so concerned about the Jews? Lipschitz himself is uncertain."
Perhaps Rabbi Lipschitz answers this question in his book entitled: Franco, Spain, the Jews and the Holocaust. Obtainable from Amazon.com here at this site, or read all about it at your public library!
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#53275 - 11/05/02 07:59 PM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Very interesting Booklady, then why would Franco be so cruel to his own Spanish population? confused

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#53276 - 11/05/02 09:27 PM Re: Franco
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1680
Loc: U.S.A.
I look at the question differently, Toddy
I see his treatment of Jews as the phenomena that lacks versimilitude and is somewhat unpredictable. That's why it is very interesting to examine Franco's motivation. His intransigence and ill treatment towards his own defeated countrymen did not change during or after the Civil War, he was predictable there. This dichotomy is what makes Franco an interesting historical figure. Perhaps as time passes, and those involved die and documents become accessible, historians will be able to uncover the answer to your questions.
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#53277 - 11/06/02 09:41 AM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Quote:
That's why it is very interesting to examine Franco's motivation
I totally agree, as I started this thread with "more study needs to be done."

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