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#53208 - 10/27/02 10:56 AM Re: Franco
Cristobo Carrín Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Asturias
Ashaming
It is true that leftists killed many people, too. But don`t worry much about their "mass graves". The victims of leftist bigotry were regarded as "martyrs" by the fascist regime, and therefore their corpses were (as far as I know) respectfully searched and properly buried, many of them in the "Valle de los Caídos", as a monument to the Franquist rebellion. The destiny of murdered "reds" was totally different.
Here in Oviedo, I remember it came to happen less than five years ago, that the names of local Republican victims were collected in a memorial stone, in the graveyard. So far, they had just been buried as a shapeless pile, willingly forgotten.
When mass graves, from partisans or simple victims like the three women mentioned in the first post, are found, you can hear from time to time that some people still complain, "Let`s forget about all that, don`t touch the dead, now this is a democracy", and so on. The Spanish post-Franco regime was built upon willing oblivion. This country stinks of all the lies we had to support to achieve a certain degree of democracy.
As to Garzon, it is funny he dared to sue Pinochet, as it is VERY funny the way many Spaniards contempt Chilean democracy. They say "nothing has changed in Chile", because the murderers from the former regime are at large. It is funny they forget the way THEIR own fascist criminals, generals, members of Falange, moorish soldiers, members of the "Legion", and all the other heroes of the Crusade, they not only remained at large, but still are honored in monuments and street plaques all over Spain. In fact, the post Franquist "democracia" remained keeping them with all their medals on, earned God knows how, and paying them a retirement as honest soldiers.
The Moorish mercenaries who remain alive, those who crossed Spain conquering, murdering and raping Spaniards during the war, are still receiving every month their payment from Spanish government.
Here, in Oviedo, there is a street devoted to General Yague, the butcher of Badajoz, a man who shot 4000 people without any kind of trial. Another street, "Division Azul", honours the volunteers corps of the nazi army. And the Plaza de Espana, in the very center of the City, is decorated with an enormous statue where the face of Franco is depicted.
Under the surface, democratic Spain stinks

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#53209 - 10/27/02 02:47 PM Re: Franco
El Cid d'España Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 111
Quote:

Ashaming
It is true that leftists killed many people, too. But don`t worry much about their "mass graves". The victims of leftist bigotry were regarded as "martyrs" by the fascist regime, and therefore their corpses were (as far as I know) respectfully searched and properly buried, many of them in the "Valle de los Caídos", as a monument to the Franquist rebellion. The destiny of murdered "reds" was totally different.
Here in Oviedo, I remember it came to happen less than five years ago, that the names of local Republican victims were collected in a memorial stone, in the graveyard. So far, they had just been buried as a shapeless pile, willingly forgotten.
When mass graves, from partisans or simple victims like the three women mentioned in the first post, are found, you can hear from time to time that some people still complain, "Let`s forget about all that, don`t touch the dead, now this is a democracy", and so on. The Spanish post-Franco regime was built upon willing oblivion. This country stinks of all the lies we had to support to achieve a certain degree of democracy.
As to Garzon, it is funny he dared to sue Pinochet, as it is VERY funny the way many Spaniards contempt Chilean democracy. They say "nothing has changed in Chile", because the murderers from the former regime are at large. It is funny they forget the way THEIR own fascist criminals, generals, members of Falange, moorish soldiers, members of the "Legion", and all the other heroes of the Crusade, they not only remained at large, but still are honored in monuments and street plaques all over Spain. In fact, the post Franquist "democracia" remained keeping them with all their medals on, earned God knows how, and paying them a retirement as honest soldiers.
The Moorish mercenaries who remain alive, those who crossed Spain conquering, murdering and raping Spaniards during the war, are still receiving every month their payment from Spanish government.
Here, in Oviedo, there is a street devoted to General Yague, the butcher of Badajoz, a man who shot 4000 people without any kind of trial. Another street, "Division Azul", honours the volunteers corps of the nazi army. And the Plaza de Espana, in the very center of the City, is decorated with an enormous statue where the face of Franco is depicted.
Under the surface, democratic Spain stinks
You are right, Democratic Spain stinks, but that doesn't mean you can't change it.

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#53210 - 10/28/02 05:56 AM Re: Franco
Eddie Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/05/00
Posts: 1739
Loc: Phila., PA, USA
Cristobo Carrin writes:
Quote:
It is funny they forget the way THEIR own fascist criminals, generals, members of Falange, moorish soldiers, members of the "Legion", and all the other heroes of the Crusade, they not only remained at large, but still are honored in monuments and street plaques all over Spain. ...The Moorish mercenaries who remain alive, those who crossed Spain conquering, murdering and raping Spaniards during the war, are still receiving every month their payment from Spanish government....
There's nothing "funny" about it at all. In any war there is a winning side and a losing side. When the 'smoke clears,' the winning side will also have won discretionary authority (like the 'War Crimes' trials held in Germany after WW II ended). Should Spain's post-Franco government have cancelled pension payments to military retirees because those payments are for service with the Fascist army during the Civil war? Hey! That was the winning side!

I disagree with your characterization of soldiers and Legionnaires (Moorish or other) as Fascist Criminals. Franco invaded the Spanish mainland from Spanish Morocco where he was commander of a Moorish unit of the Spanish Army. The "Moorish Mercenaries," as you call them, were Spanish Army troops. To the day of his death, members of that (mounted cavalry) unit served as Franco's personal Guard.
Quote:
Here, in Oviedo, there is a street devoted to General Yague, the butcher of Badajoz, a man who shot 4000 people without any kind of trial. Another street, "Division Azul", honours the volunteers corps of the nazi army. And the Plaza de Espana, in the very center of the City, is decorated with an enormous statue where the face of Franco is depicted.
That seems to me to be something you should take up with the (Autonomous Community) Principality of Asturias. rolleyes In Barcelona and in Madrid many streets that had their names changed to honor Generals of Franco's regime have since been changed back (ex. General Sanjurjo (Barcelona) is now Pi y Maragal). I have no idea why that hasn't also been done in Asturias.

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#53211 - 10/28/02 11:40 AM Re: Franco
Puna Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/07/00
Posts: 1674
Loc: Charlotte, NC. U.S.A.
Eddie-
You made an excellent point -
Quote:
In Barcelona and in Madrid many streets that had their names changed to honor Generals of Franco's regime have since been changed back (ex. General Sanjurjo (Barcelona) is now Pi y Maragal). I have no idea why that hasn't also been done in Asturias.
Anyone have any ideas why Asturias hasn't changed the names on streets, parks, etc from those of the Franco regime era?
_________________________
emotionally & mentally in Spain - physically in Charlotte
http://www.wendycrawfordwrites.com/

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#53212 - 10/28/02 11:49 AM Re: Franco
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1245
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Eddie,

I doubt there's any comparison between the war crime trials following WWII and the wanton killing of innocents by Franco's legions, without benefit of trial.

As for the conviction some people have, that Franco's army was a Fascist, let's just say their support came from Nazi Germany, and Mussolini's Fascist regime. You might say they believed he was a Fascist too, or wouldn't have supported him.

I might add, with regret, that the Vatican was a quiet ally of Franco as well. So much for not mixing religion and politics.

As for Franco's army, there were five distinct support groups. The Spanish soldiers under his command in Morocco, Spanish Foreign Legion, Moors which were used as shock troops, and Italian artillery, air support, and ground troops. Additionally they had transport and air support from Germany.

To characterize them all as Spanish wouldn't be right. In fact, less than half the troops he commanded or had at his disposal were Spanish by birth.

Wolf

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#53213 - 10/28/02 12:38 PM Re: Franco
Cristobo Carrín Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Asturias
The Franquist rebellion would have failed in less than two weeks if not for the German support.
His troops were in Africa, waiting for transportation into mainland, but the navy remained faithful to the legal government. Therefore, if the Nazis hadn`t helped him to cross the Strait of Gibraltar, he wouldn`t have been able even to start his war.
You ask why in Asturias most of Franquist symbols have not dissapeared. I have a theory for that. First, things are not the same all over Asturias. Oviedo is, let`s say, quite a conservative city, to say the least. Second, I wonder who might be interested in changing those symbols...since power here, is seized mainly by the same people as in the days of dictatorship, or their straight descendants. The change from Franquism into, say, "democracy", was such a soft one, that eventually it became clear that the current regime regarded the former as a legal one. That is why, for instance, the Policia Armada (the Spanish version of the Gestapo) was scattered, but its officers earned their retirement as any honest worker, while the veterans from the Republican army didn`t get a dime, and the partisans who fought in the mountains after 1939 remained in their mass graves, and recorded in the files of local police stations, as "bandits".
In the walls of the city hall of Oviedo there is a engraved stone with the titles of the city, those praises that the kings of Castile and Leon endowed us across the centuries, due to the faith and feats of our ancestors: "Muy noble, muy leal, benemérita, invicta y heroica ciudad de Oviedo". It was Serrano Suner, Franco`s brother-in-law, who called Oviedo "Invicta y Heroica", that is, "Undefeated and heroical". Since Suner had no authority at all to endow Oviedo those names, the Socialists in the town hall suggested erasing those two words from the stone. The answer of the mayor it was SUING them for insulting the "good name" of the city.

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#53214 - 10/28/02 06:21 PM Re: Franco
megia Offline
Member

Registered: 06/07/00
Posts: 268
Loc: Sedona, Arizona
Cristobo,

i think Franco's intentions were not all that bad, but his method for implementation was *fundamentally* broken! the idea of a unified Spain is/was great. ...such force and brutal murder... unspeakable.

it's strange, i know people that grew up in that
era; some republican, others facista. the bickering between them continues, and it even continues among their children, who remember the end of the Franco era too. geez it wasn't that long ago!

the story that Toddy cited at the beginning of this thread is very sad, and there are so many other stories equally as sad. my buddy's father told us stories of his experiences from that
era, and to think of such a nice man going thru such horror is unimagineable. he died a few years back, but i'll never forget his face as he recounted the stories where members of his own family 'disappeared,' only to be found dead later, etc... horrible.

i can't remember who said it, but it was something like 'we cannot forget the past, or we are doomed to repeat it in the future.' (ironically, i believe Rommel said something like this. little did he know it could be so applicable to his leader's regime). I think many historical figures/writers have said this.

it's ok to remember past and painful things, let's just not debate about it as if it were today.

andrew
:wq
_________________________
:wq!

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#53215 - 10/28/02 06:45 PM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Quote:
i think Franco's intentions were not all that bad
Hmmmmm, what was Franco's intentions, to create a democratic Spain?
please, Franco, Spain and both its past MUST be debated; if only for the sake of a true democatic civilization.
I wonder if there are any more regions besides Asturias that have Franco memorabilia?
I bet there are muchos mas cosas to dig up. frown

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#53216 - 10/28/02 07:32 PM Re: Franco
megia Offline
Member

Registered: 06/07/00
Posts: 268
Loc: Sedona, Arizona
Toddy,

please don't misunderstand what i mean (or what i mean is that i should better state what i mean... know what i mean? smile )

i mean to say that the only thing Franco had right was his intention to unite Spain as a one great nation. this is still subjective, because not all people think that a united Spain is good (and especially under those conditions). but i still think that a united Spain would be great, while still allowing each autonomous region its cultural freedom. i think that the biggest reason we see catalunya and pais vasco screaming for independance is simply because of the harsh oppression of the past... it just doesn't have to be that way today.

Franco's method for implementing his united Spain was, as mentioned in threads above, wanton murder, force, brutality, etc., all of which have made an infamous and lasting impression upon that county we all hold dear to our hearts. that type of rule cannot really work anywhere.

and you are correct, debate is still good. i just don't want our buddy and kind moderator Madridman to have to shut down another thread. he he he... smile

can you all tell i am being a 'pisa-huevos' about the whole thing? i just know that everyone has their opinions and experiences, so i don't want to offend anyone either way.

andrew
:wq
_________________________
:wq!

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#53217 - 10/29/02 06:50 AM Re: Franco
Eddie Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/05/00
Posts: 1739
Loc: Phila., PA, USA
Wolf writes:
Quote:
I doubt there's any comparison between the war crime trials following WWII and the wanton killing of innocents by Franco's legions, without benefit of trial.
You missed my point, Wolf. If the Republicans had won, wouldn't they have brought Franco, or some of his Generals to trial as war criminals? Franco was victorious! His people had won the discretion over the vanquished.

Quote:
As for Franco's army, there were five distinct support groups. The Spanish soldiers under his command in Morocco, Spanish Foreign Legion, Moors which were used as shock troops, and Italian artillery, air support, and ground troops. Additionally they had transport and air support from Germany.
I didn't think Mussolini's Italian forces had joined with Franco in that early march northward. I thought they came much later. But the Regiments of the Guardia Civil did join with Franco's Army in its advance from the South and did strengthen Franco's forces considerably.

Quote:
To characterize them all as Spanish wouldn't be right. In fact, less than half the troops he commanded or had at his disposal were Spanish by birth.
I didn't characterize them all as Spanish. They were Soldiers of the Spanish Army: Where they were born is totally irrelevant! But that brings up an interesting question: Is a person born in (the former) Spanish Morocco or Spanish Sahara considered Spanish by birth? They were Spanish citizens, were they not?

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