Excerpts from a talk by Ian Hancock (professor at the University of Texas in Austin) in 2000 on the Roma in Europe and America:

Racism is prejudice plus power, and no one can deny the existence of racism in all areas of administration. It is legitimized in society by its very institutional nature. It ensures that in a racist society some citizens automatically have opportunities for success and security in life which are available to them in a routine way, while other citizens must struggle for those same opportunities or else not have access to them at all. A dominant, racist population sets up so many barriers in race relations, that those excluded from full participation in the system come to feel like a surplus population, worthless and frustrated.

In the United States, the long-term consequence of the racism directed at the black American people has resulted in a deep-rooted bitterness within that population, a sense of having been cheated, a resentment and an anger which has robbed the present generation of any sense of hope or self-worth. This manifests itself in many ways above all anger, and in a desire to strike out at anybody and anything. Recent studies of this phenomenon routinely conclude that the majority of young black Americans feel an overwhelming hopelessness about their prospects for the future. Unemployment among this section of the population is the highest in the country. The despair this generates translates into violence and escape into drugs and alcohol. When questioned, such young people say that they don't expect to live long in the present system, and that there are no positive prospects for them, but they will go out protesting. This protest is tragically turned back onto the same African-American population, a population devoid of a sense of dignity, angry at its own powerlessness.

....

I remind you of the member of the British government who declared publicly a few years ago that Roma were "not human beings in the normal sense." In America too, a member of an Illinois police unit, detective Dennis Marlock, told the nation on public television that American Gypsies had not yet developed genetically "like other people" to the point of being able to distinguish right from wrong. This month, his book on the same subject has just been published, on the cover of which is the warning that "no one is safe" from my people. How do you imagine that I, as a university professor and a Roma, feel when I hear myself being described in this way? What do I tell my children?

....

Thus Roma will not be able to compete in the workplace unless they have had equal access to schooling, which means that the educational systems must be monitored too. It will take time before Roma will be able to compete educationally with the rest of the population. In some of the countries whose representatives are here today, Romani children are placed in special schools for retarded children, where their failure to acquire any kind of useful education is guaranteed, even though a Swedish study in 1985 demonstrated that classroom problems for Romani children have their origins in the fact that those same children speak Romani and are not fluent in the national language. The same study demonstrated that in a balanced situation their intelligence quotient is no lower than the national average. If a population is regarded as worthless, then only minimal measures will be taken to deal with it; it is easier to separate Romani children into special classes than to develop linguistically and culturally sensitive educational curricula to accommodate their special needs.

....

Journalists and newscasters routinely demonstrate their own biases when they editorialize instead of straightforwardly reporting the news; does it really help to repeat the words of a Hungarian skinhead, as a recent article in the San Francisco Chronicle did, without also saying something about the effort Roma in that country are making to establish schools and work programs for themselves? "There's too much of this scum; they screw their sisters and daughters and make children who are too stupid to do anything but steal." As Asante said, racist language makes the victim the criminal. The notion that a particular race is inferior to one's own carries with it an assumption of automatic incompetence on the part of members of that race, and they are then treated accordingly. Obviously Roma are not incompetent; our very survival in an environment of unrelenting hostility says something about our spirit of determination. Given an equal opportunity, which has only been possible for those people light-complexioned enough to be able to hide their ethnicity, it is clear that we are as hard-working and as diligent as anybody else. The very first female professor in the world was of the Romani descent—I'm referring to Sonja Kovalevsky who began teaching mathematics at Stockholm University in 1884.

I've tried to remain a silent bystander on this but I find it difficult. Especially since I decided to check out a few dozen websites on the internet after the discussion began, and went to the University of Wisconsin library during the last several days to read a little more about the Gypsy. I never realized how much information is out there, and how varied the views of them really are.

The questions posed about the skirts is more than absurd. It's an attempt to make them a "sub-human" culture. The same old crap that was said by the Nazis, and before that, about anyone they want to subjugate. For some reason, people aren't well enough off with the fact that a people are different, to make their biased decisions, they add fuel to the fire, by making up statements that are not only without foundation, but often totally the opposite of what really exists. You might read up on the marriage ceremony, and one of the customs that must be followed. It will blow holes in this absurd statement about promiscuity.

As for their willingness to work, according to reports made by some European nations, they want to work, but are rarely, if ever, offered any jobs that pay decently, or offer a future. If you're looking for "why they steal, and beg," look no further than the history of what they have been allowed to do, by society.

In that particular vein, it's quite similar to what happened to black America, and after it's happened for centuries, it isn't going to change that easily. There will still be prejudices, and when there is no opportunity for true equality in a society, people will turn to an expedient way of making a living, even if it means stealing.

Since the Gypsy has basically been an outsider in every society they've lived in, they have their own laws, their own mores, and their own way of life. When you aren't heard, and are considered sub-human, you turn within yourselves, to insure you can survive. That's what's happened here. They have their own Kings, because that's how their race has learned to survive. They also keep their culture alive by doing so.

Yes, there is an increase in crime related to Gypsies. But, you take any race, or nationality of people, and subjugate them to abuses, and eventually you will create a division that will take hundreds of years to breach. In essence, this is the crossroads that the issue with Gypsies stands at.

You can either help to find a way to change the way things are for them, or add fuel to the fire of discontent, by taking the view that they are nothing more than a scourge on this planet. Personally, I'd try to do more to get them into mainstream society, instead of keeping them out in the cold.

Tara's points are well taken. If that means I join the "less favorable point of view," so be it. It won't be the first time, or rest assured, the last time it will happen. We have no choice, if we are to become a world community, than lay our bigotry to rest.

Wolf

Wolf, I love you!!

I had begun to feel pretty alone out here, and spent much of last night tossing and turning about this! I can be pretty idealistic at times, but I am also determined (as you can no doubt tell from my posts here!). I don't want to change the world singlehandedly, but I want to be sure that, when only one side of a story is told, I try to offer the other.

Tara, you have all the right to defend your point of view, the point of view you feel is the correct one

However, I really think that you and Wolf are missing the point. I have said nothing about skirts, promiscuity or lack of human characteristics. You try to convert this in a racist problem while it is not. I don't care if they have 9 children instead of 2, I don't care how is the skirts the gypsy women wear, and I don't think that their ethnia is unhuman, subhuman or worse than the other ones. What I believe is that their way of life is a parasitus of any society in which they live in (not Spain, it is the same problem all around Europe).

The problem is:
1) You are trying to make paralelism between the gypsies and the afro-americans. Let me remind you that the gypsies have never been slaves.

2) The sources you are consulting are watching the problem from an office thousands of kilometers away from a spanish gypsy community.

I won't post any other story about them since you consider them unvaluable. Perhaps you should try to get informed on first hand people who has lived with them. You will soon realize how their culture is.

Any customs and any way of life must be respected in a democracy... as long as that way of life doesn't harm the freedom of the rest of the society.

Fernando

From two of the Roma histories referenced above:

"Nomadism was banned in Spain, and the speaking of Romani was forbidden. Roma were forced to abandon their traditional clothing and could not own horses. No marriage was permitted between them. They were not allowed to gather in large groups. At one time, Roma who neither conformed to Spanish ways nor left the country were made slaves."

"During the same period in Spain, according to a decree issued in 1538, Gypsies were enslaved for perpetuity to individuals as a punishment for escaping. Spain had already begun shipping Gypsies to the Americas in the 15th century; three were transported by Columbus to the Caribbean on his third voyage in 1498. Spain's later [solution] involved the shipping of Gypsy slaves to its colony in 18th century Louisiana. An Afro-Gypsy community today lives in St. Martin's Parish, and reportedly there is another one in central Cuba, both descended from intermarriage between the two enslaved peoples."

Fernando, I don't think you're a bad person for feeling the way that you do. Like the Roma (really!), you're a product of your own culture and traditions (and I will be the first to admit that I have my own prejudices, though I wish I did not)! And I love most of those traditions and most aspects of the dominant Spanish culture. I think the treatment of gitanos is a terrible black mark for Spain, though. As for them being parasites on society, there are a couple of ways to think about that.

Certainly the crimes committed by gitanos (and Spaniards, and immigrant groups, and ANYONE) are a bad thing for society. And the fact that Spain has to dedicate money and time to trying to help gitanos might be seen by majority Spaniards as unfortunate (People say that here about black people, or poor people, or poor black people...why do THEY get all the help? Why are there special college admission standards for black children? Why do we have to spend more tax money immunizing THEIR children?). In a perfect world, access to government services would be equal--and we all wouldn't need very many, because we would all be well-fed, well-educated, employed, and healthy!

But that won't happen until people in the majority guarantee gitanos access to good jobs, good schools, and good medical care. The problem (and we know it all too well in our country) is that when the government tries to do that, there is always tension. Some people in the majority think that the minority people don't deserve so much help. Some people in the minority are too firmly set in their ways to accept the help, or think that the help won't change things for them anyway. Some forms of help fail--they are seen as insufficient, or insulting, or inappropriate.

Change takes a long time. It's REALLY hard. But to say that it's not worth it to try (or to use anecdotal examples as support for not trying) harms all of Spain (and all of Europe), I think.

Fernando, someday we will meet over a caña and talk about the things we both LOVE about Spain!!

I'm not amused when so called facts are interspersed with old wives tales. It tells me that people don't have enough facts to support their position. They are looking for more reasons, which they hope will make more people follow their lead.

So, how does that happen. Let's see... we want to make sure "everyone" is against a race of people... hmmm... Okay! Here's a start. We'll use religion. They're pagans. Good one! Now that we've alienated a large number of people, lets add in their sexual mores. That should get to the conservatives out there. Now let's say they are bred to be thieves... Geez! That should take care of more people. "Watch out for your property values if one moves into your building," works. People who own property will be up in arms...

Let's see... where should we go from here... Ah! Let's throw in something about "skirts," for easy access and incest... that should piss off the Pope... Moreover, that should send a message to those of us who are Christians, about one position. The missionary position. It kinds of tells me we aren't all that respectable, and should look inside our own society, before judging others.

When all is said and done, there's ten percent truth to all the bigotry, and 90% pure bull crap.

Tara hasn't thrown out flippant responses, her responses are the result of studying the issue. Nobody can fault that, can they?

Wolf (Who's learning more about issues he never understood from our boards. We all should learn from them.)

I don´t think there is any problem with their race, but their culture is very destructive. The pro/con arguments are turning out to be a lot like race discussions in the USA. Although I must agree that a lot of the stuff are just ´wives tales´ like the things about incest and the reasons for wearing skirts.

Excellent points Fernando and Nuria!!

With respect to gypsy wealth: Many gypsies have wealth, and like Fernando mentioned drive high priced cars (usually without insurance, or licence I might add). They not only hoard large quantities of gold and jewlery, but many of the wealthly gypsies are very succesful anticuarians (sp?). Some of my Spanish friends have told me that the gypsies began to take an active interest in antiquities after many years of robbing churches. The priceless religous relics that they "collected" over the years created a nice inventory for their roadshow sales force. If you go to the Rastro in Madrid or any large open market in Spain, you will see plenty of gypsies peddling curios. In short, don´t believe that the gypsies are poor, they actually choose to live like animals.

I once again urge everyone to avoid the false comaprison of American race relations and the Spanish and gypsy one. I have lived most of my life in big urban areas, and have been through some of the most drepressed communities. Yet, I have never seen poor African-Americans live like the gypsies, never. I don´t think of the gypsies as a racial group, but rather like a rodent mafia. Just like rats they survive by stealing from others, and in order to maintain their "cosa nostra" they use violence and intimidation.

Given that many gypsy clans have resources, why don´t they open more business and employ their bretheren? The answer is obvious : they are commited to living off the hardwork from those who they steal from.

One final note, Taravab, I think your post suggesting that western men control the reproductive patterns of their wives, was a little off base. All the women I know, in Spain and the USA, are capable of deciding on their own. And to link all western women with the gysies in order to create some sort of moral equivalency is a bit of streach. Yes, there are some women who are living in the 17th century. But, very very few. I can assure you that gypsy women are not waiting for the National Organization for Women to champion their cause.

Its a good thing that this board avoids contentios topics

Shawn, I am sorry I didn't make my comments about male control of reproduction completely clear. You had pointed out that women have few rights, and are forced to marry as soon as they reach puberty. I linked that with the possible (but not proven, I believe) tendency toward greater violence or crime in the gitano community.

The reason I did this is grounded in the latest findings from comparative and evolutionary biology. A good example is the difference between chimps and bonobos, both our very closest primate cousins. Bonobos live in a female-dominated and peaceful society. Chimps, on the other hand, are notoriously violent, committing infanticide (which makes females sexually available sooner--though they won't kill babies that might be their offspring--and this, of course, encourages chimp females to be pretty promiscuous, even going so far as to mate with males from other communities at the risk of injury or death if they are caught), waging war, etc. Much of this has to do with controlling access to breeding females.

Admittedly, this is far outside of the scope of this original thread. But all I was trying to say was that without societal support for strong and healthy families, women are even worse off than they might otherwise be. And it may also be the case that society as a whole suffers as males compete for access by trying to accumulate wealth (sometimes illegally) and acting like testosterone-laden peacocks.

However, that happens in every society, too, (look at the abortion debate, or the requirement to wear burquas, or female circumcision, or the practice of stoning adulterous women) so perhaps my notions about this being a stronger pattern among gitanos or other marginalized peoples are wrong. Regardless, I appreciate that you called me on it and made me clarify a bit.

I also want to say that I don't think that everything will be fabulous if Spain throws money at gitanos. The patterns (what some of you have called gitano culture, though I would disagree with that and label them adaptations to poor living conditions and hopelessness) will take time to change. We might see a few more gitano kids going to college, or a gitano journalist in a small town, or a gitano athlete getting lots of positive media attention. Then maybe a few gitano politicians, or a gitano fashion designer, or gitano characters (who aren't criminals, who dress like typical Spaniards, etc.) on a telenovela. And a neighborhood with gitanos and majority Spaniards living happily together, letting their kids play together in parks and calling each other up to borrow a cup of leche.

It's the little things.

Tavarb, you are entitiled to your opinion. But the facts are the facts. And yes, they DO choose to live in their own society within a society and reject the larger society.

You're right in one thing, it is not easy to break the cycle. However, although they live poorly, and not all gypsies are wealthy, they have more money than you think. So its not trying to not be poor anymore, just living mainstream. The gypsies cannot be compared to homless people and certainly not to the poor people in the US. You're reaching there to make a comparison between apples and oranges. They are both fruits, that's what they have in common. We are people, that's what we have in common with them.

If they WANT to mainstream, and efforts have been made and EXTENDED to them time and time again, and few choose to. Skin color has nothing to do with any of this. My fiancee has a darker complexion than most spaniards, and he's never faced any prejudice from people thinking he was a gypsy or south american or anything (and if you look at skin color, he certainly could get away with it!) That's not the issue. Its their attitude and way of living. THey could live what ever way they wanted to if it didn't oppose on other peoples' rights or freedoms. But they choose to cross that line. THAT'S why there is a problem. And no, not all of them are running around robbing people, but they do associate themselves with the ones that do, live with them, and thus, suffer with them. It IS a choice! They have rights to medical benefits as well as education, you like to make so many comparisons with the US, you know well that its much harder to study here than it is in Europe just for the cost of higher education, here is is more of a priviledge, not a right, and you pay plenty for it. Over there its given to you, if you take it or leave it, that's up to you. How is that unjust?

The truth is, this is a debate that will get nowhere, people are going to have different opinions. Most of us will all agree though, not because of fabricated stories or rumors, but because of fact. I will say one thing though... this world is made up of many different cultures, but if one stands back and really thinks about it, there is only one race amongst people, that is the human race. The differences in skin color, nose shape, teeth, all that does not make people different races, just different kinds within a race. Cats, dogs, horses, are all different RACES. Within those categories you have different characteristics, which are distinguished by different breeds, and since people aren't going to call eachother by different breeds, we say race. That's wrong, we are all different cultural backgrounds, some because of similiar ways of thinking, mix better than others, or get along more easily, but that's not to say its not possible for all of us to mix together. Whether we do or not is a choice, and that's done by either accepting or rejecting the culture or society you live in. The gypsies come and go where they please, they reject the cultures of where ever they are for what ever reason, but they do. They can choose to live in peace with their host society or not. I say host society because they CHOOSE not to become a part of the society they live in, remaining seperate, so even though they have all the rights a spaniard does, they don't exercise them because they don't consider themselves to be spanish. Not the same for other immigrants. I have met many africans in recent years in spain and can tell you, some of them embrace the culture and rules of their new home, and some don't. Its not the same.

i can understand some of the comments that bothered you, but sometimes people get carried away with stereotypes. As far as your incest taboo... its NOT taboo in all societies. The hawaiians for centuries practiced it, and sacrificed the deformed offspring (inevitable after so much interbreeding) to the gods (throwing them into volcanoes). There is a tribe in africa, the 'ostrich people' that ONLY marry within their close knit group, thus the now standard deformation of their feet. These are two FACTS that I know of, I'm sure there are more groups that practice this, or did at some point. Hello, look at the royal families in Europe until not too long ago! Everybody marrying their cousins, although I don't recall any story of brothers and sisters having to marry eachother. To some extent, even in recent society, marriage to a relation was or is acceptable, depending on the distance of the relation.

I think when it all comes down to it, what we are mostly saying is that the gypsies are not people to be reckoned with, best to leave them alone as that is what they want, and best to respect that wish. We can live in peace with that, until like I said before, they start to intrude upon our rights or liberties (robbing for ex. ). That's all.