hey. I was very surprised when I went over to Spain to experience the Gypsies. I have lived in the US my whole life and have never seen a race of begging people. At first they scared me, but when I thought about them, I don't know if they're oppressed people or what. I know they're closely associated with the flamenco. Does anyone have any advice for me on how to handle them. I don't want to be offensive but want to really understand them?

Chances are, you're not going to understand them. They aren't opressed either, so don't feel sorry for them. The Gypsies have their own world and rules within that world. They have choices just like the rest of us and choose to live and behave the way they do. Admire the good qualities, but I suggest you do it from a safe distance. Be careful and don't be fooled.

I was talking with my Spanish friend about this topic this week and she told me that when she walks by them and they try to sell her flowers she makes sure that they know she's Spanish and not a turist. When they say "Toma toma" she says "No" and points to them and says "pa ti, pa ti" and they leave her alone. I tried it and it worked.

Hey, jysuper, your post got me thinking about an article I read recently about the Gypsies (who prefer the term Roma to describe themselves). I went looking for it online, and found instead a WEALTH of information about who the Roma are and the various issues facing them in Europe and other places in the world. You might check out

http://www.flamenco.org/gypsy.html

http://web.jet.es/gea21/ing.htm

http://www.unionromani.org/

http://www.religioustolerance.org/roma.htm

http://pw1.netcom.com/~ethnic/prague1.html

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm

http://www.rnw.nl/humanrights/html/prejudiceromania.html

http://www.romaedu.org.uk/index.htm

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/1997/06/F.RU.970623151122.html

There are MANY other resources available online if you're interested in learning more about the Roma people and their customs, various stereotypes, etc. The parallels between the experience of the Roma in Europe and of African Americans in the USA are made quite explicit in many of these writings.

And BTW, the term Roma does not mean that these people are from Romania (just as the term Gypsy does not mean that they are from Egypt, though that's apparently what the term initially meant).

Thanks for prompting me to learn a bit more about a group I knew very little about, jysuper!

Tara

I read a fascinating book about the gypsies of Europe years ago that I would highly recommend. Although from what I remember, the author spent most of her time with the Romany of Eastern European countries, she did a great job researching their past, (what is known at least), and looking at contemporary issues facing them. The book is called "Bury me Standing" but I can't recall the author's name.

My experience with the Spanish gypsies (gitanos) has been multi-faceted. On the one hand, you have those who beg (the choices that were spoken of by Espe3), etc. On the other there are those who try to integrate into a society that doesn't really have (or create) a place for them. They're almost a class of "desolados".

A dear friend of mine teaches in Bilbao at a public school, where several children are gitanos. Most of the Spanish parents have removed their children from the class out of fear. They don't want their children in with "those kids". [Sound familiar America?] She has had run-ins with the parents and has also felt threatened, but loves the kids. Racism exists in Spain, and this is one manifestation of it.

I've also been witness to a gitano man chasing a friend of mine with a syringe filled with his own blood. While this is an isolated incident, it was certainly heinous and it certainly tainted my friend's view of the gitanos.

I've usually just avoided the beggars and have spoken Spanish to them when approached. The funny thing is, when they say "dame algo para comer" and you hand them food, they become indignant. One would assume by this general reaction that they are not in fact hungry, but are interested in money. Carry a Snickers bar in your pocket and hand it to them...then watch the reaction. We even offered to buy lunch for a pair of gitanos and they said, "no we want the money".

I agree with Espe3's opinion. Don't feel sorry for them, just take the good, sift out the bad, and enjoy the great contributions they have made [for example in areas such as music and dance].

Cali, your post is fascinating...it does bring to mind so many of the race issues our country has been dealing with for so long. It's remarkable to me how a few bad experiences can taint a person's view of an entire group of people...yet of course that is exactly what happens! My little sister was held up at gunpoint by a group of African American teens about 8 years ago, and it took her a long time to get over being afraid of young black men. It's a reaction that she wasn't proud of, but it was certainly a natural one. Your experience with the needle reminded me of that.

As for parents taking kids out of classes, that's, as you say, all too familiar to anyone in this country with a passing knowledge of the history of race relations here (and particularly in the South). What a heartbreaking situation for those gitano kids and their families, and for the teachers who want to be able to teach them (and for the kids of those narrow-minded parents who don't realize that THIS is what REAL education is all about! What horrible messages have their kids learned from being pulled from classes?!).

I heard someone comment on Minnesota's social policies recently, and it really reminds me of this issue...what they said was that it was really easy for Minnesota to be progressive and liberal back 30 years ago, when we were instituting programs and services for "people like us" ("us" being northern European stock, lots of Scandinavians, etc.). Now that the programs and services are needed by southeast Asian immigrants, or Somali immigrants, people are closing down a bit...we take care of "our own," but "our own" doesn't mean "them."

I wonder if that's what is happening throughout Europe, with the rise of the nationalist movements we're seeing in so many countries? As Europe becomes "The United States of Europe," will we see more of this? How sad if we do. (And yes, I am a flaming Wellstone liberal progressive Democrat, so take that into account as you process the above comments!)

Well, I am a flaming anti-immigration Republican American who is all for Nationalistic causes and is against World Globalization. So take that into account.

(You do know that I am joking around?...except of the Republican American part...I do vote Republican. :o )

CaliBasco,

The story about the syringe doesn't surprise me in the least. About nine years ago, when my Son was visiting Bilbao (He'd just graduated from high school, and was on his way to play college football that fall and was in top physical condition.), he'd run from the home he was staying in, to the Gold's Gym, where he was doing his work outs. One morning, while he waited for a street light to change, a guy came up to him, threatening him with a syringe of blood. My son wasn't carrying anything on him... including wallet, or money, so he was concerned that he was going to get "stuck," no matter what. Especially since he's a blue eyed blonde... Scandinavian or Germanic appearance... making matters worse, he could only half understand the language.

The guy became frustrated over the situation, and became even more threatening. His only mistake was waving his arms, and pulling the syringe far enough away that my son (Who also kicked field goals and extra points as well as playing fullback in high school and college.) was able to send the guy's "vital parts" into an orbit somewhere around his adnoids. While the guy writhed on the ground, the syringe a good fifteen feet away, my Son made sure he wouldn't get up to harm him. His next kick launched the guys nose to another location on his head. Fortunately he avoided the teeth, which could have been disastrous, if they penetrated his shoe.

He was lucky. The syringe thing is very dangerous. Especially since many of the people using that ploy for extortion are HIV positive. In fact, just the threat itself should be considered as lethal as using a gun for a holdup.

I certainly don't recommend my Son's response to anyone. If you miss, you're in serious trouble. Even if you do hit home, there's the chance that needle could still get you. Not a pleasant thought. When my Son told me about the incident, I didn't know quite what to say. I had no answer as to what the right way to handle a situation like that really is. Especially if you don't have anything on you they can steal.

Wolf (Who's just glad his Son's still with him.)

wolf, out of curiousity, could you tell me which barrio that happened in and what time of day?

Ok, here it goes my politically incorrect post.

I have been grown all my life to have respect for other cultures and races, and I have just come to a conclusion about gypsies (gitanos).

Let's make some questions first: In a country as Spain where the migration fluxes have been huge throughout its history (romans, greeks, phoenicians, celts, visigoths, sudaneses, berebers, arabs,...) the general spaniard seems to have blood of all these races so, why didn't the gypsies mixed with the rest of the people as the other cultures/races if they have been here for centuries? Curious, don't you think?

Now come my experience and that of my family with gypsies. When my parents had no money at all, and were working hard to pay their house, a gypsie woman came to our door. "Give me an egg". My mother, her back aching of cleaning the house (it was new, and obviusly very dirty) answered very well intentioned: "Ok, I don't have an egg, but you can help me to clean the floor and I will pay you for it". The answer: "Oh noooo, I want an egg".

Next. My father was at some time of his life in charge of a factory. As a way to integrate and help two gypsie men, he inocently offered them a job, disregarding the voices who told him not to do it. How these two men payed him? At the first glance he catch them stealing some steel pieces of the factory. When he asked them what were they doing their response was to menace him with a knife.

Some blocks away from my house the council built a 12 store building which were given to gypsies who lived in "chabolas" (little light houses made of plastics, wood and other building pieces). The bargain was: The council bulldozed their chabolas, and give a flat for free as compensation. What did the majority of them did? They literally destroyed the apartments (taking off the pipes, the electric instalation, the furniture,...) then sold them, and then build another chabola in the base of the block.

Countless times I have seen these and other ways in which our society tried to integrate these people, and their only response have been parasite the society. The spaniards work, and what the gypsies do is make drugs traffic, steal, rob, injure people (even children), sell newspapres on the traffic-lights, "clean" the glasses of the car and, in extremely rare cases, earn money singing or dancing flamenco. You won't see a gypsie working as a laborers, farmers, or even engineers, medics, etc (their own parents don't usually want to send their children to the schools).

Conclusion: I don't think the gypsies want to integrate in the spanish society nor in any other civilized society. We are not the only country with the gypsie problem. Unfortunately, if we didn't have enough of them, we have absorbed a great amount of romanian (from Romania) gypsies, and portuguese gypsies (they will probably think Spain is a bargain...).

The great majority of them want to continue living as they have done for centuries: parasiting the rest of the society.

I prefer a thousand times a southamerican, an eastern-european, a center-african or even a moroccian before a gypsie.

Call this racism. It may be or may be not, but the facts are there.

Fernando

Roe,

He isn't certain which barrio, but it happened somewhere within a mile and a half of Deusto station before 8 AM. I don't think he knew one barrio from another.

Wolf

The gitanos lifestyle is built upon making money off of outsiders, it is very regulated and organized. Gitanos who go to make a normal life are ostracized from their community or worse - it´s like some cult. Children raised this way have no concept of another way of life or that they are parasites on 'normal' society. My policy with gitanos, scientologists, or other such folks, I avoid them completely.

Fernando writes: You're being generous, Fernando: The first things gypsies are taught is how to steal, and whom they should target for the highest probability of getting something of value. 12 and 13-year old gypsy children are sent out to steal under the watchful eyes of their teacher. When they have attained adequate status, they are on their own. Gypsies live apart from civilized society although most horse-drawn Caravans have been replaced with motorized 'vans' or house trailers.

Gypsies are the same all over the world. Are you aware that there is a Gypsy society in Brooklyn, N.Y. with its own 'King?' Gypsies don't want to integrate into any society. They want to continue living the way they have for centuries. Even Adolph Hitler, who wanted to exterminate the gypsies, doesn't seem to have had much success along those lines ...

I think it's very difficult to talk about this without studying it a little bit deeply.
Gypsies came to Spain in XVIth century with their own kings, laws, culture ... they had a nomad culture and probably that's one of the reasons of why there have had so many conflicts with them.
The Spanish Kings during all this century have had different policies against them (more commonly) or in pro of them with no success.
I believe all the facts told here and many more like them, it's something common. It's not difficult to see them driving without licence, or without car insurance (compulsary in Spain), or selling fruit or clothes in the street avoiding the taxes, sometimes stolen things... but also many of them sell the fruit legally in Council markets or make bussiness with chatarra ... also many of them are studying and really want to work.
There are towns, usually small or medium, where the gypsies live with payos with no problems and other places where there are conflicts.
I think the new generations are each time more integrated as there have had plans to integrate them in the school when it's more important that all the races know each other.
Now, I think we have had a new problem with the arrival of the Rumanian gypsies, as it looks that all the efforts have become nothing.
Well, I think they're not victims of racism, but that good people pay for the bad people,we have all to work more and better for the integration.

I have to agree with most of the earlier posters, avoid the Gypsies like the plauge. I have to disagree with the idea that they are a just a group marginalized folks. They gitanos have nothing in common with African Americans, absolutely nothing. Nearly all black Americans value eduaction and hard honest work, the gitanos are only motivated by crime and ignorance. As has been mentioned, most gypsies do not want to send thier children to school. They prefer that their kids learn to pick pockets and sell drugs.

Of course, we have to remember that women have zero rights in the gypsy community, their parents elect their husbands when they are about 15-16yrs. By the time a gypsy girl is 30, she normaly has 6 or 7 kids. Of course they all seem to have a baby in their arms in order to con people about needing milk money for their family. How many skinny Gypsies have you seen?

When they move into a building and away from the chabolas, as Fernando mentioned, they destroy the building. It is not uncommon to find chickens, rabitts, and of course mounds of feces in what used to be a nice piso before the gitanos moved in. They don´t pay taxes nor the community fees. If you own a piso in a bilding, I garauntee you that the value of your piso will decline greatly the moment you see 'La Farola' sales team move in. The decline has nothing to do with their race, but as a result of their behaviour.

Please do not try to compare American race relations with the realtion between 'pallos' and gitanos. If you are trusting person who believes that the gypsy are a well intentioned misunderstood group, you can learn the hard way, just like Fernando´s father.

Ja ja - "la Farola". Everytime they come near with that thing I just say "No thanks, I don't want a newspaper today." They seem to become flustered as I treat them like they are trying to sell me something... the only response is the "por favor soy refugiado de la Bosnia" subway chant.

And are those babies doled out in the morning?

"Alright, Lola, take baby #5 and head for Pl. Callao. Majda, you've got #8."

"But #8 craps all day and is fat! I want #6!"

"We sold #6 last week though to Sudanese slavers. Sorry."

...and so on. I should have made movies.

We had a "La Farola" incident in Santiago that was pretty funny. We just looked at the gypsy girl and told her, in English, "what? what is that? Is that a newspaper? Who wrote it? what do you have there? aren't you a little young to be selling papers?" I've never seen a more frustrated and puzzled little girl in my life. Her little brother tried the same thing with the "la Farola gum" and met with the same degree of frustration.

On another note, there is a gypsy king here in Los Angeles as well, probably like the guy in NYC mentioned earlier. I understand from friends who've seen the "palace" that the beggin' business is fairly lucrative...

The sad thing is, that as someone said, the majority ruin the chances of those few that want to break out and be productive. The fact that their community ostracizes them for wanting to make something of themselves is even more disheartening.

I do have one question: When I was in Spain back in the late 80's, I had heard that the girls/women wear skirts all the time to allow daddy "easy access". That sounds repulsive but also a little "far-fetched", nevertheless it is possible. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

I have to SO VEHEMENTLY disagree with the previous posts that pigeonhole gypsies/Roma as criminals, parasites, and even practitioners of incest. First of all, I think the parallel between the Roma and African-Americans (and any other immigrant group that is readily identifiable because of skin color, dress, or language) is an apt one. I'm not necessarily talking about NOW in the US, where progress has been made (though not enough yet).

Historically, though, the same kinds of language you all are using about the Gypsies have been used against African-Americans and other "different" groups..."they don't want to work," "they are parasitic," "they don't take care of the places they live," "if we give them some help, they reject it or ruin it." We've all heard that before, haven't we, about groups that are different?

The Irish were called drunks, the Italians were called criminals, in the early part of the 1900s in the US. People assumed, based on admittedly negative interactions with individuals from these groups, that the stereotypes they extracted from those interactions applied to EVERYONE in that group. It's SO EASY to do this, and (in my opinion) so dangerous! It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, after all...look at what we still see among young African-American men! The mortality rate is high, many express hopelessness about their future prospects, many father illegitimate children and live lives dependent on crime. These things are ALL LINKED!!

People have often said that African-Americans have a desire to remain marginalized too, that they don't want to become integrated and don't want to participate in "civil society." Those people are mixing up two things, though...the desire to retain culturally-important customs and practices DOES NOT exclude a desire to see your children educated, to hope that each successive generation will do better than the one that came before. There is a biologically ingrained and evolutionarily important desire to have your children and your children's children be more successful than you are. We see this in the reproductive strategies used by EVERY animal, not just humans. Enhancing reproductive fitness, in humans, means acquiring wealth, education, and health. That's just the way it is. If we want to give our children an evolutionary advantage (and all animals do), we don't want to see them locked up in jail, denied medical access, or illiterate. To say that Roma mothers and fathers WANT to live these lives is ridiculous.

Pointing out that women are oppressed gives an interesting twist to this...evolutionary biologists and evolutionary psychologists are learning that societies that allow male domination of women's reproductive decisionmaking often tend to exhibit more violence, more individualistic tendencies, etc. All of this is seen to some extent in the mainstream Western societies too, but among marginalized groups, this tendency may be even more apparent.

If a group is mired in hopelessness for generation after generation, denied access to healthcare and education, denied access to occupations that will result in greater wealth and prosperity, it's no surprise that many turn to crime. And there is still a debate about the percentage of crimes that are committed by Roma and other immigrant or non-native groups--but even assuming that they do commit more crimes, on average, than native groups, what does that tell us? That they WANT to be criminals? That they prefer to raise their children in filth? Or that the pervasive hopelessness has sapped the energy to keep trying?

So go ahead and call me a Pollyanna, or a flaming liberal, or whatever...I still think that, despite the likely truth of the incidents you describe, to label this group in the way that you're doing is to predestine every Roma baby born today to a life of marginalization, poor or nonexistent education, and (quite possibly) crime.

And as for the suggestion that "daddy wants easy [sexual] access" to his children, that almost doesn't deserve a response. The incest taboo is present in every known culture, again for important evolutionary reasons. To suggest that a group engages in culturally-sanctioned incest is another attempt to suggest that a group is less than human. The incest rumor has surfaced with respect to African Americans, too--and Hitler lobbed charges of incest against Jews as well. And listen to the comments of many "far Right" commentators about how gays advocate incest. As if ANY group needed to try to overcome THAT rumor in addition to all the other nonsense that people believe about them!! To give that kind of rumor credence is absurd. I would be willing to bet that the rates of incest among Gypsies are comparable to those found among just about any other population in the world.

I wear skirts too. So do many Spanish women. We're not sleeping with our dads and brothers.

Tarabv,
I think you are a great woman with very high expectations.
I am not very sure how long you have lived next to "gitanos". I used to think like you, and I was wrong. I lived next to gitanos for a long time and I don't have a single good experience with them. I have to agree with the rest of the posts.
They don't want to be part of the society or follow the rules, you cannot help someone that doesn't want to be helped.
Nuria

Everyone has the ability to choose for themselves. If gitanos steal for a living or spend their days busking in the street they CHOSE to do that. If their circumstances made it easier for them to make that choice that's just the unfairness of life...but it is still a choice. There's nothing wrong with putting together programs to help this group of people, but please avoid them in the street because this just feeds their current ambitions.

A working paper of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights regarding Gypsies/Roma can be found here:

http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/2848af408d01ec0ac1256609004e770b/00db4010d4bf86a8c1256928002f5cf1?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,roma,rights

The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) reviewed France and Spain during its sessions in the Spring of 2000. Here's what it found:

Regarding Spain, concerns were expressed by the Committee over the relatively small number of racial discrimination cases before national courts, despite the general increase in juvenile violence, including attacks on foreigners by extremist groups, neo-Nazis and gangs. Concerning employment, the Committee highlighted the prevailing discrimination against people of foreign origin, and recommended that the state ensure the rights to work, to equal opportunities of promotion and career development, to education and to housing for ethnic and national minorities. Concern was expressed about the position of the Roma minority, and reports of racist attitudes on the part of authorities. In a UN press release dated March 13, 2000, Yuri A. Rechetov, the Committee expert who served as country rapporteur to the report of Spain, said that “one could conclude from the report that the Roma population were not full-fledged Spanish citizens.” The press release further noted that some Roma individuals do not have identity documents similar to those of Spanish nationals. The Committee underlined the importance of the treatment of the Romani population in general and plans to hold a discussion about the socio-economic situation of the Romani populations in Europe and in the rest of the world during its August session. Other Committee members also commented on the situation of the Romani population in Spain. Some experts regretted “that members of the population were painted as individuals who did not want to work and to learn.”

In addition, the US Department of State's report on human rights in Spain can be found here (discussions of racism and xenophobia appear near the bottom, after the longer discussion of ETA. Women's rights are also addressed):

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/eur/8343.htm?docid=875

Taravb,
Those reports are very deceiving. If gypsies don't have identity cards is because they don't want to. You are responsible to go to the "comisaria" and get it done. I don't think anybody stopped them from getting one.

Do the people who write these reports live for a while in a neighborhood like Vallecas? (Madrid) Do they send their kids to schools where gypsi kids go? Do they have a first hand experience? I don't think so.

What else can we do for the gypsies so we won't be treated as racist? We are giving them apartments for free or very little money, we are paying their health insurance (although they don't pay taxes), they don't have to spend 100.000 pesetas in their driving licenses, they don't pay taxes, many of them drive good cars (no job and good car? where do they get the money?), most of them have expensive jewelery... I guess that is not enough...

You are mistaken - we are criticizing their society and lifestyle, not their race. History is unclear but apparently most sources attribute them to an origin on the subcontinent... anyone know more about this?

If someone was a gitano and lived normally in Europe, you wouldn't likely know they were one.

The "not wanting to learn" is more of "we do not participate in the 'outsiders' society, we have our own." Avoid them or you will be, as an outsider, ripped off, no matter how nice you are. To them you are one thing, profit, objectively.

Would it be fair for me to say, "If you just lived near those Black people in downtown (any big American city) like I do, you would know how horrible all African-Americans are...they steal cars and sell drugs and pimp their women"?

Or would it be fair to say the opposite..."Oh, yeah, my neighbor Johnnie is one of the 'good Blacks,' but the rest of them are criminals"?

Sure, everyone has good or bad experiences with "good" or "bad" members of a group. But no person can see an entire group with unprejudiced eyes.

I've been around Gypsies too. I walked the streets of Salamanca day in and day out in 1990, through the (former--it's now been "cleaned up") Barrio Gitano, and was terrified. There were needles everywhere, and scantily-dressed women in some of the doorways. I wouldn't go there at night, or alone. I have had Gypsy women try to hand off babies or sell me all sorts of things, and have seen people selling drugs in the corners of Plazas. I watched men shoot up heroin next to cathedrals. I've been asked for money more times than I can recall.

But I've also been to Gypsy bars, and passed by many a darker-skinned person on the streets of Spain without incident. I've listened to singers on the streets of Andalucian cities and not been robbed. I've walked through open-air markets in MANY cities in Spain and Portugal.

We don't notice the "non-incidents," the many, many, many times we pass a Gypsy safely, the salespeople who don't try to rip us off, the market stalls with people ACTUALLY SELLING fresh flowers.

I'm really not trying to change anyone's mind about this. Prejudice is a deeply-ingrained thing. We all have it, to a greater or lesser extent. But I truly, truly believe that to say that the only "reality" is that Gypsies are dangerous is unfair.

I'm not stupid...I won't walk in places that I feel or hear are not safe, and I won't approach strangers. I do believe that Gypsies probably commit more crimes than other Spaniards, and my instinct for safety will make me likely to avoid them (though this is embarrassing to say).

But I still stick by my earlier assertion that NOBODY would choose to live that life...nobody would choose to be ostracized, marginalized, and hated by the majority. Nobody would choose to let their children be uneducated or denied access to health care.

People in this country say that poor people "choose" to stay poor, through laziness, probably. They suggest that they would succeed if they just tried harder, worked to fit in, made an effort. But studies show that poverty doesn't work that way. Getting out of poverty requires support...child care, good health care, high-quality education, access to job training and opportunities, etc. I think the situation is the same for the Gypsies in Europe (and here).

And I also want to point out that I don't believe that every Gypsy (or every person, for that matter) is inherently good and nice and hardworking. Some people are not (from whatever combination of genes and environment has shaped them). Some will be criminals, or lazy, or unfriendly, or whatever. I don't excuse that behavior at all. I just think that wherever we can change the environment to make that outcome less likely, we as "civilized" society are obligated to do so. And sadly, in the case of so many groups, we don't meet that obligation.

I remember seeing a documentary on the regional channel here about a gitana that married a payo. She was almost completely rejected from her society and her family for doing that. Originally her mother had promised her to be married to her cousin.

I don´t think that gitanos can be compared to the situation with blacks in the US. In Spain there are decent levels of health care, decent public schools and cheap universities. Although the economic situation in Spain probably is worse for the gitanos, a tight labor market is the best thing to get rid of racism in the labor market.

One reproductive strategy is to make your offspring more well off. Another is to spread your resources thinner among more offspring. Both are valid strategies to get your genes spread around.

Many gitanos become educated and integrate into mainstream society, but those that live in their culture will likely be trapped by it. I sometimes think to compare them to american ´white trash´. Both are poorly educated, drop-outs, wedded very young, etc.

Roe, you're right that an alternative reproductive strategy, often used by people whose well-being is threatened, is to have more children and invest less heavily in each one, in hopes that at least one or two will "turn out all right." But that choice isn't used when resources are available and when, as you suggest, health care and other supports are in place. When conditions for the group improve, people opt for quality over quantity (very adaptive for organisms like us, with long gestational periods and dependence on breast milk).

Similarly, women left to their own devices will choose quality over quantity every time, placing more resources in each child and choosing for longer birth intervals. Men's situation is more confusing, but most evolutionary biologists say that men choose quality as well when they can be certain of paternity. Only then is it worth while to invest in an offspring.

All of these issues are related, I think, to how different cultural groups fare in the mainstream society.

Taravb, you are very well intentioned, as I was when I was younger, until I realize how the situation was.

I discussed thousand of times with my parents, calling them racists and intolerants. The problem is that I had not lived inmersed in a state where the gypsies were really around. When you hear the people who live among them (normally poor) then you start to hear about hundreds of stories.

Do you really think they are poor? Ok, more stories then:

Doing a field job for an engineering company I had to watch for places where a building could be built. In Villaverde, one of the most depressed zones of Madrid. I had never been there, and I was a bit frightened. No way! Villaverde people is normally poor, but I never had the sense I was unsafe... until I reached a gypsie zone of small houses by error. I feel threatened (the way they watch at you, pointing to you, talking between them, and gesturing). Poor people... poor people with Mercedes Class E cars, the best health insurances in Spain, the best lawyers, and full of gold jewelry.

You don't believe it? Ask any jeweller in Spain to whom he sells the most of the gold jewelry.

So they are not as violent, and the reasons for violence are racist... Day yes, day no, we awake with a headline on TVs where a gypsie has killed another gypsie for the most ridicolous reasons (6€ of a debt, a discussion, a commentary,...).

It is extremely rare to see a crime in which a non-gypsie killed a gypsie. Believe me, extremely rare.

The girlfriend of a friend of mine works with one of the best lawyers of the south-east of Spain. She has told me that the best client is the local gypsie boss and some of his friends. They have a handful of Mercedes, the best health insurance possible, the best car insurances, and obviusly one of the more expensive lawyers... and still he lives in a chabola, making business with drugs.

You say that they don't have ID cards. In Spain it is obligatory to have one, and in the past, the police tried to made them to have one (go to the commisary and give the data). It is impossible. They don't want to have ID cards.

Taravb, the most easy thought is that what we have here is a generalized case of racism against a marginal collective. The truth is even more simple: They don't want to integrate. They have their rules, their laws, their customs, and their way of life (living at the expense of other in the majority of the cases).

Believe me, I hate racism. I don't have problems with inmigrants (as long as they respect the laws), but I don't like gypsies at all, as a culture, as a way of life. I don't mind if their skin is browner than mine.

Fernando

Taravb, I applaud you! You've taken the high road in a very emotionally laden subject.

Although I consider myself an educated person, I must admit that I have not studied the history of the Roma to understand their current problems. I will look up those sites that you mentioned to learn more about them. Also the book mentioned by llawlor.

You never know what you can learn at MadridMan's All Spain Web Page!

I just can't go from isolated incidents and generalizations (and "friend of a girlfriend of a friend" stories) to the belief that all gypsies are either:

1) petty criminals
2) parasites who take every offering of help (education, housing, health care) and either destroy it or demand more (though they should demand more access, from what I have learned, because they are not given fair opportunities in many of these areas--including jobs)
3) Mercedes-driving, flashy jewelry-wearing drug kingpins

I stand firmly by my earlier posts...all of these things can be seen in any marginalized group (AND IN THE MAJORITY!!!), and all of these accusations are hurled against minorities in America (for which, BTW, we Americans have taken a lot of criticism from supposedly more "enlightened" European citizens!). I see this here in my own community, where Native Americans are called lazy or drunk or worse, and people talk about how ungrateful they are. And people give examples of the ones who have profited by crime, as if the drug king living large in Andalucia or in Minneapolis is representative of an entire group.

I do not deny that gypsies might commit more crimes. I just say that if there were a level playing field, they would probably commit the same number as any other group in Spain (and they would also probably become more integrated, over time, into mainstream culture there--the door to the mainstream can be locked from EITHER SIDE).

Every majority can look at the customs and practices of minorities in the worst light...they are nomads, they don't want to have homes like ours, whatever...but until the majority starts to listen to the concerns of the minority and tries to understand the lives they lead (their traditions and customs, their aspirations, their obstacles), we can't expect change to happen.

And regarding gold jewelry...Gypsies have traditionally converted their material wealth into jewelry. This makes perfect sense if you're always in danger of being "asked" (forced) to move on. Why use a bank? Gold holds its value, is easy to carry, and makes people feel attractive.

And regarding the skirts--women's traditional dress includes long skirts because there are rules about modesty. It's okay to show the tops of the breasts (and may even be encouraged!), but the legs should be covered. This is the case in many cultures.

Finally...a bit more information about the treatment of gitanos in Spain...admittedly, 15-year-old information, but I can't imagine things have changed dramatically for the better since 1985:

From Ian Hancock's "The Pariah Syndrome":
"A lower life expectancy among Gypsies than the national average is also reported from Spain, where Gypsies have been condemned by a hostile society to live in poverty and ill-health. The average life expectancy of a Gypsy male is 64 years, nine fewer than the Spanish average. Only a quarter of Gypsy children attend school, only 26 percent of Gypsy men have regular employment ... (Ellman, 1985:J2).

A year prior to that report, in Zaragosa, Spain, non-Gypsies violently opposed city authorities' building houses for the local Gypsy population, and retaliated by burning them down and attacking the Gypsy children trying to attend school there, pelting them with bricks (The New York Times for October 25th, 1984)."

Excerpts from a talk by Ian Hancock (professor at the University of Texas in Austin) in 2000 on the Roma in Europe and America:

Racism is prejudice plus power, and no one can deny the existence of racism in all areas of administration. It is legitimized in society by its very institutional nature. It ensures that in a racist society some citizens automatically have opportunities for success and security in life which are available to them in a routine way, while other citizens must struggle for those same opportunities or else not have access to them at all. A dominant, racist population sets up so many barriers in race relations, that those excluded from full participation in the system come to feel like a surplus population, worthless and frustrated.

In the United States, the long-term consequence of the racism directed at the black American people has resulted in a deep-rooted bitterness within that population, a sense of having been cheated, a resentment and an anger which has robbed the present generation of any sense of hope or self-worth. This manifests itself in many ways above all anger, and in a desire to strike out at anybody and anything. Recent studies of this phenomenon routinely conclude that the majority of young black Americans feel an overwhelming hopelessness about their prospects for the future. Unemployment among this section of the population is the highest in the country. The despair this generates translates into violence and escape into drugs and alcohol. When questioned, such young people say that they don't expect to live long in the present system, and that there are no positive prospects for them, but they will go out protesting. This protest is tragically turned back onto the same African-American population, a population devoid of a sense of dignity, angry at its own powerlessness.

....

I remind you of the member of the British government who declared publicly a few years ago that Roma were "not human beings in the normal sense." In America too, a member of an Illinois police unit, detective Dennis Marlock, told the nation on public television that American Gypsies had not yet developed genetically "like other people" to the point of being able to distinguish right from wrong. This month, his book on the same subject has just been published, on the cover of which is the warning that "no one is safe" from my people. How do you imagine that I, as a university professor and a Roma, feel when I hear myself being described in this way? What do I tell my children?

....

Thus Roma will not be able to compete in the workplace unless they have had equal access to schooling, which means that the educational systems must be monitored too. It will take time before Roma will be able to compete educationally with the rest of the population. In some of the countries whose representatives are here today, Romani children are placed in special schools for retarded children, where their failure to acquire any kind of useful education is guaranteed, even though a Swedish study in 1985 demonstrated that classroom problems for Romani children have their origins in the fact that those same children speak Romani and are not fluent in the national language. The same study demonstrated that in a balanced situation their intelligence quotient is no lower than the national average. If a population is regarded as worthless, then only minimal measures will be taken to deal with it; it is easier to separate Romani children into special classes than to develop linguistically and culturally sensitive educational curricula to accommodate their special needs.

....

Journalists and newscasters routinely demonstrate their own biases when they editorialize instead of straightforwardly reporting the news; does it really help to repeat the words of a Hungarian skinhead, as a recent article in the San Francisco Chronicle did, without also saying something about the effort Roma in that country are making to establish schools and work programs for themselves? "There's too much of this scum; they screw their sisters and daughters and make children who are too stupid to do anything but steal." As Asante said, racist language makes the victim the criminal. The notion that a particular race is inferior to one's own carries with it an assumption of automatic incompetence on the part of members of that race, and they are then treated accordingly. Obviously Roma are not incompetent; our very survival in an environment of unrelenting hostility says something about our spirit of determination. Given an equal opportunity, which has only been possible for those people light-complexioned enough to be able to hide their ethnicity, it is clear that we are as hard-working and as diligent as anybody else. The very first female professor in the world was of the Romani descent—I'm referring to Sonja Kovalevsky who began teaching mathematics at Stockholm University in 1884.

I've tried to remain a silent bystander on this but I find it difficult. Especially since I decided to check out a few dozen websites on the internet after the discussion began, and went to the University of Wisconsin library during the last several days to read a little more about the Gypsy. I never realized how much information is out there, and how varied the views of them really are.

The questions posed about the skirts is more than absurd. It's an attempt to make them a "sub-human" culture. The same old crap that was said by the Nazis, and before that, about anyone they want to subjugate. For some reason, people aren't well enough off with the fact that a people are different, to make their biased decisions, they add fuel to the fire, by making up statements that are not only without foundation, but often totally the opposite of what really exists. You might read up on the marriage ceremony, and one of the customs that must be followed. It will blow holes in this absurd statement about promiscuity.

As for their willingness to work, according to reports made by some European nations, they want to work, but are rarely, if ever, offered any jobs that pay decently, or offer a future. If you're looking for "why they steal, and beg," look no further than the history of what they have been allowed to do, by society.

In that particular vein, it's quite similar to what happened to black America, and after it's happened for centuries, it isn't going to change that easily. There will still be prejudices, and when there is no opportunity for true equality in a society, people will turn to an expedient way of making a living, even if it means stealing.

Since the Gypsy has basically been an outsider in every society they've lived in, they have their own laws, their own mores, and their own way of life. When you aren't heard, and are considered sub-human, you turn within yourselves, to insure you can survive. That's what's happened here. They have their own Kings, because that's how their race has learned to survive. They also keep their culture alive by doing so.

Yes, there is an increase in crime related to Gypsies. But, you take any race, or nationality of people, and subjugate them to abuses, and eventually you will create a division that will take hundreds of years to breach. In essence, this is the crossroads that the issue with Gypsies stands at.

You can either help to find a way to change the way things are for them, or add fuel to the fire of discontent, by taking the view that they are nothing more than a scourge on this planet. Personally, I'd try to do more to get them into mainstream society, instead of keeping them out in the cold.

Tara's points are well taken. If that means I join the "less favorable point of view," so be it. It won't be the first time, or rest assured, the last time it will happen. We have no choice, if we are to become a world community, than lay our bigotry to rest.

Wolf

Wolf, I love you!!

I had begun to feel pretty alone out here, and spent much of last night tossing and turning about this! I can be pretty idealistic at times, but I am also determined (as you can no doubt tell from my posts here!). I don't want to change the world singlehandedly, but I want to be sure that, when only one side of a story is told, I try to offer the other.

Tara, you have all the right to defend your point of view, the point of view you feel is the correct one

However, I really think that you and Wolf are missing the point. I have said nothing about skirts, promiscuity or lack of human characteristics. You try to convert this in a racist problem while it is not. I don't care if they have 9 children instead of 2, I don't care how is the skirts the gypsy women wear, and I don't think that their ethnia is unhuman, subhuman or worse than the other ones. What I believe is that their way of life is a parasitus of any society in which they live in (not Spain, it is the same problem all around Europe).

The problem is:
1) You are trying to make paralelism between the gypsies and the afro-americans. Let me remind you that the gypsies have never been slaves.

2) The sources you are consulting are watching the problem from an office thousands of kilometers away from a spanish gypsy community.

I won't post any other story about them since you consider them unvaluable. Perhaps you should try to get informed on first hand people who has lived with them. You will soon realize how their culture is.

Any customs and any way of life must be respected in a democracy... as long as that way of life doesn't harm the freedom of the rest of the society.

Fernando

From two of the Roma histories referenced above:

"Nomadism was banned in Spain, and the speaking of Romani was forbidden. Roma were forced to abandon their traditional clothing and could not own horses. No marriage was permitted between them. They were not allowed to gather in large groups. At one time, Roma who neither conformed to Spanish ways nor left the country were made slaves."

"During the same period in Spain, according to a decree issued in 1538, Gypsies were enslaved for perpetuity to individuals as a punishment for escaping. Spain had already begun shipping Gypsies to the Americas in the 15th century; three were transported by Columbus to the Caribbean on his third voyage in 1498. Spain's later [solution] involved the shipping of Gypsy slaves to its colony in 18th century Louisiana. An Afro-Gypsy community today lives in St. Martin's Parish, and reportedly there is another one in central Cuba, both descended from intermarriage between the two enslaved peoples."

Fernando, I don't think you're a bad person for feeling the way that you do. Like the Roma (really!), you're a product of your own culture and traditions (and I will be the first to admit that I have my own prejudices, though I wish I did not)! And I love most of those traditions and most aspects of the dominant Spanish culture. I think the treatment of gitanos is a terrible black mark for Spain, though. As for them being parasites on society, there are a couple of ways to think about that.

Certainly the crimes committed by gitanos (and Spaniards, and immigrant groups, and ANYONE) are a bad thing for society. And the fact that Spain has to dedicate money and time to trying to help gitanos might be seen by majority Spaniards as unfortunate (People say that here about black people, or poor people, or poor black people...why do THEY get all the help? Why are there special college admission standards for black children? Why do we have to spend more tax money immunizing THEIR children?). In a perfect world, access to government services would be equal--and we all wouldn't need very many, because we would all be well-fed, well-educated, employed, and healthy!

But that won't happen until people in the majority guarantee gitanos access to good jobs, good schools, and good medical care. The problem (and we know it all too well in our country) is that when the government tries to do that, there is always tension. Some people in the majority think that the minority people don't deserve so much help. Some people in the minority are too firmly set in their ways to accept the help, or think that the help won't change things for them anyway. Some forms of help fail--they are seen as insufficient, or insulting, or inappropriate.

Change takes a long time. It's REALLY hard. But to say that it's not worth it to try (or to use anecdotal examples as support for not trying) harms all of Spain (and all of Europe), I think.

Fernando, someday we will meet over a caña and talk about the things we both LOVE about Spain!!

I'm not amused when so called facts are interspersed with old wives tales. It tells me that people don't have enough facts to support their position. They are looking for more reasons, which they hope will make more people follow their lead.

So, how does that happen. Let's see... we want to make sure "everyone" is against a race of people... hmmm... Okay! Here's a start. We'll use religion. They're pagans. Good one! Now that we've alienated a large number of people, lets add in their sexual mores. That should get to the conservatives out there. Now let's say they are bred to be thieves... Geez! That should take care of more people. "Watch out for your property values if one moves into your building," works. People who own property will be up in arms...

Let's see... where should we go from here... Ah! Let's throw in something about "skirts," for easy access and incest... that should piss off the Pope... Moreover, that should send a message to those of us who are Christians, about one position. The missionary position. It kinds of tells me we aren't all that respectable, and should look inside our own society, before judging others.

When all is said and done, there's ten percent truth to all the bigotry, and 90% pure bull crap.

Tara hasn't thrown out flippant responses, her responses are the result of studying the issue. Nobody can fault that, can they?

Wolf (Who's learning more about issues he never understood from our boards. We all should learn from them.)

I don´t think there is any problem with their race, but their culture is very destructive. The pro/con arguments are turning out to be a lot like race discussions in the USA. Although I must agree that a lot of the stuff are just ´wives tales´ like the things about incest and the reasons for wearing skirts.

Excellent points Fernando and Nuria!!

With respect to gypsy wealth: Many gypsies have wealth, and like Fernando mentioned drive high priced cars (usually without insurance, or licence I might add). They not only hoard large quantities of gold and jewlery, but many of the wealthly gypsies are very succesful anticuarians (sp?). Some of my Spanish friends have told me that the gypsies began to take an active interest in antiquities after many years of robbing churches. The priceless religous relics that they "collected" over the years created a nice inventory for their roadshow sales force. If you go to the Rastro in Madrid or any large open market in Spain, you will see plenty of gypsies peddling curios. In short, don´t believe that the gypsies are poor, they actually choose to live like animals.

I once again urge everyone to avoid the false comaprison of American race relations and the Spanish and gypsy one. I have lived most of my life in big urban areas, and have been through some of the most drepressed communities. Yet, I have never seen poor African-Americans live like the gypsies, never. I don´t think of the gypsies as a racial group, but rather like a rodent mafia. Just like rats they survive by stealing from others, and in order to maintain their "cosa nostra" they use violence and intimidation.

Given that many gypsy clans have resources, why don´t they open more business and employ their bretheren? The answer is obvious : they are commited to living off the hardwork from those who they steal from.

One final note, Taravab, I think your post suggesting that western men control the reproductive patterns of their wives, was a little off base. All the women I know, in Spain and the USA, are capable of deciding on their own. And to link all western women with the gysies in order to create some sort of moral equivalency is a bit of streach. Yes, there are some women who are living in the 17th century. But, very very few. I can assure you that gypsy women are not waiting for the National Organization for Women to champion their cause.

Its a good thing that this board avoids contentios topics

Shawn, I am sorry I didn't make my comments about male control of reproduction completely clear. You had pointed out that women have few rights, and are forced to marry as soon as they reach puberty. I linked that with the possible (but not proven, I believe) tendency toward greater violence or crime in the gitano community.

The reason I did this is grounded in the latest findings from comparative and evolutionary biology. A good example is the difference between chimps and bonobos, both our very closest primate cousins. Bonobos live in a female-dominated and peaceful society. Chimps, on the other hand, are notoriously violent, committing infanticide (which makes females sexually available sooner--though they won't kill babies that might be their offspring--and this, of course, encourages chimp females to be pretty promiscuous, even going so far as to mate with males from other communities at the risk of injury or death if they are caught), waging war, etc. Much of this has to do with controlling access to breeding females.

Admittedly, this is far outside of the scope of this original thread. But all I was trying to say was that without societal support for strong and healthy families, women are even worse off than they might otherwise be. And it may also be the case that society as a whole suffers as males compete for access by trying to accumulate wealth (sometimes illegally) and acting like testosterone-laden peacocks.

However, that happens in every society, too, (look at the abortion debate, or the requirement to wear burquas, or female circumcision, or the practice of stoning adulterous women) so perhaps my notions about this being a stronger pattern among gitanos or other marginalized peoples are wrong. Regardless, I appreciate that you called me on it and made me clarify a bit.

I also want to say that I don't think that everything will be fabulous if Spain throws money at gitanos. The patterns (what some of you have called gitano culture, though I would disagree with that and label them adaptations to poor living conditions and hopelessness) will take time to change. We might see a few more gitano kids going to college, or a gitano journalist in a small town, or a gitano athlete getting lots of positive media attention. Then maybe a few gitano politicians, or a gitano fashion designer, or gitano characters (who aren't criminals, who dress like typical Spaniards, etc.) on a telenovela. And a neighborhood with gitanos and majority Spaniards living happily together, letting their kids play together in parks and calling each other up to borrow a cup of leche.

It's the little things.

Tavarb, you are entitiled to your opinion. But the facts are the facts. And yes, they DO choose to live in their own society within a society and reject the larger society.

You're right in one thing, it is not easy to break the cycle. However, although they live poorly, and not all gypsies are wealthy, they have more money than you think. So its not trying to not be poor anymore, just living mainstream. The gypsies cannot be compared to homless people and certainly not to the poor people in the US. You're reaching there to make a comparison between apples and oranges. They are both fruits, that's what they have in common. We are people, that's what we have in common with them.

If they WANT to mainstream, and efforts have been made and EXTENDED to them time and time again, and few choose to. Skin color has nothing to do with any of this. My fiancee has a darker complexion than most spaniards, and he's never faced any prejudice from people thinking he was a gypsy or south american or anything (and if you look at skin color, he certainly could get away with it!) That's not the issue. Its their attitude and way of living. THey could live what ever way they wanted to if it didn't oppose on other peoples' rights or freedoms. But they choose to cross that line. THAT'S why there is a problem. And no, not all of them are running around robbing people, but they do associate themselves with the ones that do, live with them, and thus, suffer with them. It IS a choice! They have rights to medical benefits as well as education, you like to make so many comparisons with the US, you know well that its much harder to study here than it is in Europe just for the cost of higher education, here is is more of a priviledge, not a right, and you pay plenty for it. Over there its given to you, if you take it or leave it, that's up to you. How is that unjust?

The truth is, this is a debate that will get nowhere, people are going to have different opinions. Most of us will all agree though, not because of fabricated stories or rumors, but because of fact. I will say one thing though... this world is made up of many different cultures, but if one stands back and really thinks about it, there is only one race amongst people, that is the human race. The differences in skin color, nose shape, teeth, all that does not make people different races, just different kinds within a race. Cats, dogs, horses, are all different RACES. Within those categories you have different characteristics, which are distinguished by different breeds, and since people aren't going to call eachother by different breeds, we say race. That's wrong, we are all different cultural backgrounds, some because of similiar ways of thinking, mix better than others, or get along more easily, but that's not to say its not possible for all of us to mix together. Whether we do or not is a choice, and that's done by either accepting or rejecting the culture or society you live in. The gypsies come and go where they please, they reject the cultures of where ever they are for what ever reason, but they do. They can choose to live in peace with their host society or not. I say host society because they CHOOSE not to become a part of the society they live in, remaining seperate, so even though they have all the rights a spaniard does, they don't exercise them because they don't consider themselves to be spanish. Not the same for other immigrants. I have met many africans in recent years in spain and can tell you, some of them embrace the culture and rules of their new home, and some don't. Its not the same.

i can understand some of the comments that bothered you, but sometimes people get carried away with stereotypes. As far as your incest taboo... its NOT taboo in all societies. The hawaiians for centuries practiced it, and sacrificed the deformed offspring (inevitable after so much interbreeding) to the gods (throwing them into volcanoes). There is a tribe in africa, the 'ostrich people' that ONLY marry within their close knit group, thus the now standard deformation of their feet. These are two FACTS that I know of, I'm sure there are more groups that practice this, or did at some point. Hello, look at the royal families in Europe until not too long ago! Everybody marrying their cousins, although I don't recall any story of brothers and sisters having to marry eachother. To some extent, even in recent society, marriage to a relation was or is acceptable, depending on the distance of the relation.

I think when it all comes down to it, what we are mostly saying is that the gypsies are not people to be reckoned with, best to leave them alone as that is what they want, and best to respect that wish. We can live in peace with that, until like I said before, they start to intrude upon our rights or liberties (robbing for ex. ). That's all.

Prejudice

First let me say that I am an American white female of European descent.

After a rather unpleasant incident in Spain and after reading through this thread (as well as other articles on the problems faced by North Africans in Spain), it would be easy for me to assume that prejudice is fairly widespread in Spain, if not all of Europe. That's not to say we don't have our share of it here in the States. Our own brand of black vs. white or “people of color vs. white” is well known by all. I know in my heart of hearts that most people want to “get along” and prejudice is just a form of ignorance. However, prejudice is still an ugly thing.

The incident: My husband, a Chinese-American man, was heckled by a large crowd of pre-teen/teenage Spanish kids as he walked by them in a tourist area last Thursday in Spain. I wasn't present at the initial “event,” but my husband was EXTREMELY upset by this, and I must add that he usually doesn't let ANYTHING (even clerks at stores who ignore us because of our bi-racialness) bother him. We needed to walk past them again to get to a location we wanted to visit, so I just assured him we would deal with these kids. As we walked past them again, sure enough, they started shouting derogatory remarks about the “chino” man. So I turned around and YELLED at the top of my lungs some “choice words” (not many, not that bad) I knew in Spanish and Italian. They backed off, but it was an EXTREMELY unnerving and upsetting experience.

Let me say this to you: UNTIL YOU EXPERIENCE PREJUDICE FIRSTHAND, you have no idea what it feels like. That's not to say that I have experienced this all my life. I have not, but since marrying, I have experienced much in the way of prejudice and mistreatment because of my choices. I don't believe anyone should be persecuted in any way based on the color of their skin or the way they choose to live, especially if their way of life doesn't affect anyone else. I might add that I have been rejected by some individuals in my extended family for my choices. Before my married life, I like many of you, thought “people of color” (including blacks, latinos, Asians) were overreacting and exaggerating their problems when they complained about things. Believe me, they are not exaggerating. I am not what you would call a “flaming liberal” but rather middle-of-the-road (left of center) in my beliefs. So I wasn't prepared for what I have experienced over the last decade. As white people in a predominately white culture, you have it EASY!

PLEASE, don't judge the Rom (gypsies), the North Africans, South Americans or anybody else by everything you hear/see about them in the press, the message boards, etc. They are a group just like all the other groups out there with their own way of life, problems, individuals among them who are good and bad. They may not wish to conform, but don't believe that they want to live in squalor.

As a member of the Gypsy Lore Society [no I'm not a Rom/gypsy], I have to tell you that most people know very little about the Roma. Generally, they are viewed one of two ways: Romantically, where they seen as living a carefree life, and dance and sing for us to provide a diversion. Criminally, where they are viewed as the scum of the earth and steal everything, from jewelry and money to children, and live like animals. Neither of these is accurate. It would take a lot of space to begin to tell you what they are all about. If you really want to learn about them and change your way of thinking, read some books on the subject (although many of them are not 100% accurate either; remember most are written by non-Roma and present what they perceived as “outsiders”). Begin by reading some articles or books by Ian Hancock, a Roma of academic standing, who has written extensively on the plight of the Romani people. He states, “…Roma have been the victims of slavery and genocide, transportation and torture. No other single human population has endured so widely and so consistently the suffering of the Rom. At first incarceration, then expulsion, sterilization, and finally extermination were techniques employed by the Nazis to deal with Gypsies…” ** You can easily access some of his articles at the Patrin Web Journal: www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm
His book The Pariah Syndrome: An account of Gypsy Slavery and Persecution is available as a used book on Amazon.com

**Note on Ian Hancock: Of British Romani and Hungarian Romani descent, Ian Hancock represents Roma on the United States Holocaust Memorial Council. He is professor of Romani Studies at the University of Texas at Austin, and has authored nearly 300 publications. In 1997, he was awarded the international Rafto Human Rights Prize (Norway), and in 1998 was recipient of the Gamaliel Chair in Peace and Justice (USA).

To sum up: We all have our prejudices, but recognize them and try to change or at least become more informed about the people you know little about. Yes, I realize some of you have lived near gypsies, but you haven't experienced what they have. Don't make assumptions.

As for you tourists who want to “understand” the gypsies. Read and learn about them, accept that they are there, but don't encourage those who are leading a begging life. Don't give them anything, and don't confront them.

And now for a few Facts:

Did you know….

Entertainers of note who have claimed Romani ancestry include Yul Brynner, Charlie Chaplin, Rita Hayworth, Michael Caine and Bob Hoskins.

The Roma originated in the Indian subcontinent; their language has roots in Sanskrit.

Roma were the only other population besides the Jews who were targeted for extermination on racial grounds in the Final Solution. The latest (1997) figure from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Research Institute in Washington puts the number of Romani lives lost by 1945 at "between a half and one and a half million."

According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, an estimated 903,000 children suffered maltreatment [including forms of sexual abuse] in the United States in 1998 or 12.9 per 1,000 children.

And finally, I must say that for the most part the people of Spain were courteous and cordial and, other than what I have recounted above, we enjoyed our stay there.

And to tarvb I commend you for standing up for the rights of minorities.

Very well put, tcc. Prejudice is unacceptable on any level.

Regarding the Gypsies, it would be helpful to better understand their culture, behaviours, and lifestyle...if judgement has to be passed.

Unfortunately, much of what I've been told (about Gypsies) involves parents failing to ensure their children are educated. According to friends from Andalucia (and have taught there), many Gypsie families pull their children out of state provided education. Many of the men also don't work, but force their children and wives to "provide."

Not very honorable...

Just something to add on, because I'm not sure all the americans know.

In Spain the health care is free (though some gypsies pay for their own private health insurances). The education is also free for poor people, and it is obligatory. The gypsies have decided not to scholarize their children, forcing them to ask for money in the streets or pickpocketing (only a 20-30% of gypsy children go to schools). The college is almost free, and for poorer people there are economical and financial aids.

When a worker looses his/her job, the state provides him/her with a monthly salary for months or years until he finds a new job.

When a worker reaches the end of his working life he has the right to earn a monthly salary for the rest of his life (that depends on how much he has worked in his life). There are other discounts for the elder, as almost-free transports.

Also, if a worker suffers an accident that keeps him from working, the state provides him with an aditional monthly aid.

When a youngster wants to buy a house, in the case he has no resources, the councils, autonomic governments and statal government provides him with a house for quarter or half of its value. In the case of gypsies I have seen whole blocks of houses built and given to them for free.

These are common rights for every spaniard, included the gypsies. The have chosen to exercise only some of them (as the health care).

Which bothers me much is that you say that the problem is that the common people in Spain marginalize this group. I have seen countless times efforts of our society to integrate them, it is true that they suffer some kinds of discriminations (as parents keeping their children away from a school with gypsy kids), but never violence or verbal insults.

Why? Because it is them who are menacing and violent with others (even themselves). You will never see a non-gypsy calling "¡gitano!" a gypsy.

In know I'm not going to change your minds Tara and Wolf, but if in some point of your life you come to realize how the gypsies are in reality I hope you remember all these pieces of information.

Facts (not second hand stories): I have seen gypsies kick out poor people from the entrances of commerces, from their preferred corner, or from the best traffic-lights (in which they could earn more money).

I have seen gypsies offering to wash the front glass of your car, the driver saying no and they throwing soap and dirty water to the car.

I have seen gypsies robbing the purse of a 65 years-old woman and pushing her to the floor.

I have seen gypsies robbing the radios of the cars by breaking the glasses.

I have seen gypsies asking for money to drivers in Castellana, and when the drivers gave them coins, throwing a coin (of much lesser value) inside the car and asking for more money.

I have seen gypsies camping in public parks, in the backyards of hospitals.

I have never seen moroccians, equatorians, center-africans, ukranians, dominicans, colombians or any other inmigrant to do such things... and the gypsies are not inmigrants!

You won't convince me of how marginalized they are, and how bad I'm for not liking them. That doesn't mean that I want any bad for them. What I would wish is that they could integrate in every society they live in.

Tara: Your point of view is as respectable as any other. And sincerely I value it since you are discussing with the general opinion

Best regards.

Fernando

Well, leave a forum for five minutes...

I was the one who asked for thoughts on the skirt "wive's tale". I never implied that this was the case, I just wanted to know what was out there. Geesh!

I have a couple of suggestions for those who want to reference others' works. Please post a website link, not the unabridged version of the original treatise...my browser got tired scrolling through all that! :p

Please note that the word "prejudice" has to do with judging another before you know the facts or have primary information sufficient to form your own opinion based on that primary information.

With that as a premise, it is clear that neither Fernando nor Nuria are "prejudiced" against Gitanos. They have obviously lived with the Roma as a very visible part of their society much longer than most, if not all, of us on this board. I can speak for those who live in Minnesota and California when I say the Gypsy populace is scarce at best...even in LA where there is a definite presence.

Don't confuse prejudice with simple disagreement on an issue. Fernando is correct when he says we are all entitled to our opinions. What we are not entitled to is to bash, belittle or hate someone else due to theirs.

I truly believe that each side is correct on this issue, but I also feel that unless you've really lived in a situation where Gypsies are an everyday part of our existence, you can only speculate as to what you think is right or proper based on your own paradigm. Everything else is just an opinion of how you wish things were, and we all wish they were better for both the Gypsies and the Spaniards.

Sorry about the lengthy excerpts, Cali, I know they are a pain! I just have enough experience with trying to post links on my own webpages to know that links are ephemeral, and felt that it was worth creating a more permanent record, for future visitors here.

I fully agree with your definition of prejudice. And I agree that the Spain-based (we should all be so lucky!) posters here have more experience with Roma populations than me or most Americans.

But to say that an entire group of people don't want to improve their lot in life IS pre-judging them. Have the people who say that been in the homes of Gypsies as they discuss their hopes and plans for the future? Have the people who say that they don't want to send their children to school been with those children as they have struggled with language difficulties or been ignored by other children (we know children can be very cruel)?

Until the people who claim that they don't want to change reach out and make the attempt to invite them to participate fully in Spanish society (and, as I said before, this will be REALLY HARD at first, because neither side trusts the other), they ARE, by definition, pre-judging them.

When one futbol team must play at a great disadvantage (say, for example, they all were required to donate blood one hour before each game), and consistently loses...then those who call them "losers" are prejudging them. Give them a chance to have a fair game, and if they still lose, give them another chance (to be sure). Then you can decide if they are losers are not.

Tara,
Your last line, even you aren't seeing most of what we're saying.

They DO have a fair playing field. They are entitiled to healthcare, education... nobody can go to school FOR them! If they choose to use it, then good! But the facts are, that more often than not, they don't. And because of that they aren't the only ones that have to live with that choice.

If they weren't given the right to education or healthcare, then you'd be right, it wouldn't be fair. But they are.

I still say that they can live how they see fit. If they want to change that, then cool. If not, fine, but don't impose your choice on me. I'm not going to give money out just because someone asks me for it. If you're hungry, I'll buy you a sandwich, if you don't want it, then you can't be that hungry. Wouldn't you agree?

Here's the deal, folks. I teach a class at the University of Minnesota on child development and social policy. At the beginning of each semester, I hand out a list of ground rules for discussions. Here are some of them:

6. We will try to understand and explore both sides of each issue.
7. We should acknowledge that racism, classism, sexism, and other forms of oppression exist.
8. We should recognize that the perpetuation of “-isms” has much to do with misinformation about both our own group and members of other groups.
9. We should not blame ourselves or other people for the misinformation we (or they) have learned.
10. We should not repeat misinformation once we have learned otherwise.
11. We will not “blame victims” for the condition of their own lives.
12. We will assume that people always do the best they can in the situation at hand.
13. We will actively pursue information about our own group and other groups.
14. We will combat myths and stereotypes about our own groups and those of other people.
15. We will create a safe atmosphere for open discussion.

This thread has moved SO far away from the ground rules I would like to adhere to in any discussion that I can no longer participate in it. I don't feel safe, I don't feel accepted, and I feel strongly that the racist views expressed here have no place in this message board.

My husband is a descendant of Roma. He's not a criminal, or a drug dealer, or lazy. His grandfather, whose parents came to this country in the early 1900s, worked his entire life to improve his family's circumstances. His father has a doctorate in educational psychology. My husband has a doctorate in child development and is the director of research for a nationally-prominent child advocacy organization.

If you want to continue to spread racist messages about my husband (and hence my daughter), go ahead. If you want to believe that he and his family are the ONLY exceptions to the nonsense written here about Roma not wanting to improve their life circumstances, go ahead. But I won't stay to listen to it.

This has soured my feelings about Spain, about the message board, and about many of the people I had felt were becoming my friends here. I think I have to quit.

Best of luck to all of you. May you never be on the receiving end of comments like I have heard here.

What it is a pitty is to personalize a rational and calm discussion taravb. You are accepted, your opinion is valued, strongly valued because you are expressing it almost alone.

Moreover, noone has told you "your opinions are wrong, you don't have any point". Noone has insulted your husband nor your daugther. We were talking about gypsies as a collective IN Spain (and guessing it of what we have heard in Europe). Who knows if I have gypsy blood? Would I be insulting myself by talking how a current collective behaves?

Now you call us racists, that is indeed an insult, and a personalization of a discussion.

In a discussion both parts should respect the other opinions, and be fair by not trying to personalize the discussion (this is something I have learnt in this board).

I'm very sorry you have come to this point

Fernando

Hope you don't leave us Tara, I find your comments very interesting. I also have found some comments a little bit rude and maybe racist.
First of all two points:
1.I think this is a cultural conflict more than a racial conflict.
2.Gypsies are also Spaniards, you can talk about gitano-payo, not about gitano-español.

Now, as you said I think there is a big unknowledge between both groups and also about reality. I also don't know much about them, but I would say the following. Leaving apart the Romanian gypsies, I would say that all the Spanish gypsies know the language perfectly, I would even say it's their main language. I would say than 100% of gypsie kids go to school. The socialist government began a program of positive discrimination with gypsies, so the family would receive a economic help if the kid went to school (other families with the same economic problems wouldn't receive the help). Since then, there have been progressions with the integration, it's being very hard, and there are a lot of problems, but things are a bit better now than they were when the program began, so there's a progress. I would say that nowadays there is no Spanish gypsie kids begging (except some special days like domingo de ramos). There's a minority that go to university and work hard for their people.

About the houses it's true that many of them get a free house instead of their 'chabola', they used to live in bad quality houses made by themselves in campaments they formed in lands than they didn't own, so the government decided to make flats for them to give them a healthier living in pro of integration. Unfortunely, they were used to another kind of living and didn't adapt well to these flats. Many of them had hens or worked with 'chatarra' so they needed a little bit of land beside their house. Now, many of them have adapted to live in a flat, although they always try to get a free flat.

It's true that many of them have made good bussiness with drug, the guettos where many of them live are a good place for selling the drug to the end consumer, but it's also true that they don't own the ships which do the big drug traffic. It would be like saying that all the people from Cadiz or Galicia are involved in drug traffic or contrabando.

I think we the government have to continue helps and works for integration and the knowledge of both groups ... they abuse of helps, but I think the integration is possible and that this is the only way.

Sometimes people make the mistake of thinking assimilation is integration. It isn't. Being able to have one's own ethnicity is important. It's as important as being allowed to live within their own religion. By stereo-typing people, we cause them to draw closer together in their own communities, and withdraw even further from society as a whole. Integration really means that an ethnic community can survive, and flourish, within the whole, of an integrated community, and society, where prejudices are dealt with as being unacceptable. As for the word, "prejudice," it is basically the same as "pre-judge." Don't fool yourself into believing it isn't. It can apply to individuals, or groups of people, for whatever reason you choose to apply it.

Tara's points are not generalizations, but specifically target stereotype casting of people, and the injustices that causes. Instead of attacking her position, a person who says they believe in human rights should embrace what she says, and try to find solutions to the problems. If we don't, as individuals, and as a society, we've missed the very opportunities we have, to make a difference.

Wolf

I've been reading this thread and biting my tongue - but feel I have to throw a few comments in at this point - my 2 cents worth? Nuria, Fernando, Espe3, Cali, Shawn, and Miguelito as well as taravb and Wolf have all mentioned a couple of things - healthcare and EDUCATION. Both are available to all Spanish residents - and the education is mandatory through a certain level. The fact that the Gitanos so often CHOOSE to not send their children to school speaks in and off itself for a desire to be part of the society.

We all known I'm a 'flaming liberal' - but I have to agree with the statements that, in the main, the gypsy in Spain (and possibly elsewhere) does NOT want to be a part of Spanish society - with all inherent the benefits and responsibilities. By depriving their children of education (for whatever reason they do so)- the isolationism becomes a perpetual and self-breeding problem.

In Granada a gypsy girl came up to me and started to tell my fortune,.. that i was pretty, intelligent and going to have many babies- 'give me some money'! to which i replied, 'You are prettier than me, obviously intelligent and richer than me' and i held out my hand. It pained me to do that but the facts were true she was prettier, intelligent and richer. I CHOSE to have cereal for breakfast and lunch, just so i could travel more. But this is my 'choice' and i don't impose it on anyone.
I'm grateful for all the links and suggestions made by all members, and i now have a curious need to read up on the subject. Thanks Tara and others!
However Taravb, I don't believe that by describing my pot pourri origins, how well i am educated, or how many and who has a doctorate has anything to do with anything. I am not in your class, with your rules, to learn what you know. Everyones opinions should be respected. We are simply Miche, Tara and others one and the same. if a little
-Miche

There's not much I can add to this debate, but it's a long time since I read such ill-informed venom against a group or culture. Thanks Taravb and Wolf for injecting some sanity into this thread.

For petes sake! Nevermind, i think its best I bite my tongue.

Tarvarb, I for one would miss your contributions to this board. I think all of us ,who have been posting on this great site for some time, have seen highly charged topics alienate some of our community members. Sadly, it can be difficult at times to distinguish between ad homineum attacks and those against altenative points of view. I feel quite strongly in my opinion of the gypsies, of course my beliefs with respect to them have been influenced by my entirely neagtive contact with them. Your more positive view of them, without a doubt has been shaped by your own personal perspective. Given that your husband considers himself Roma, it is understandable that you have reached a different conclusion. Please recognize that denouncing gypsy culture and their behaviour is quite different than defaming people of Roma dissent. I hope that you rethink your decision to leave the board.

BTW, I should have placed qualifiers like "most" or "many" when I refered to gypsies. I regret that I can´t put the toothpaste back in the tube.

tarvarb, this board wouldn't be the same without your contributions. I can see how you've personalized this discussion, though. Hopefully, you'll stick around here. I don't participate that much anymore, but read the board often. Stick around - you'll be missed!

If this dicussion were to stay focussed on the particular members of society (in Spain), and from a factual point, much could be learned. The flip side to all the generalizations (thievery, no value on education, instability..) is all the culture that has originated from the Gypsies. Depending on one's exposure and experiences, this sub-group of Spain's society could be looked at in differing ways.

What has happened here happened a few months ago on the ETA forum...and I'm still here.

Tara, this board is like the Hotel California: "You can check out any time you'd like, but you can never leave." I trust we'll see you back posting on "10 Favorite songs" or "Why I eat paella" in short order...

I like what I'll call Tara's Tricks for Tolerance: I hope I've followed them, and I've kept the ones I see as most relevant here:

We will try to understand and explore both sides of each issue. I don't think this is happening in an open way. Please, everyone, if you're going to get involved and "unbite" your tongue on something emotionally charged like this, prepare to either not take things personally or to truly look at both sides. Nowhere here does it say you must agree.

We should not blame ourselves or other people for the misinformation we (or they) have learned. I haven't, and I don't.

We should not repeat misinformation once we have learned otherwise. I haven't, and I won't. About the skirt issue, I simply heard it, asked you what you all knew, and accepted your answers as gospel. Thank you.

We will assume that people always do the best they can in the situation at hand. I will respectfully agree to disagree on this point, specifically with regards to this point, as facts have been irrefutable on this with regards to the Spanish Gypsy population.

With that, I'll leave this forum, but unfortunately for the rest of you, I've no intention of leaving this board. And Tara, I'll be in MN this fall and plan to swap stories over tapas with you and yours at La Bodega if time allows...don't think you're getting off that easy (or hard as the case may be)!

Hi everyone! Just thought I'd give my thoughts on this. I am a direct descendant of the romany "gypsies" (so called because they were originally thought to be from Egypt, but are from the Afghanistan area). The most famous romany family in England had the surname Boswell, which is my nan's maiden name - her dad was born as a traveller.
Nothing to do with the angle of the subject, but I just thought I'd share that with you! I'll go and slink back to my corner now...........

Hello everyone. I'm jysuper. The one who created this topic. My original intent of posting this topic was to get feedback from people who've been to Spain and encountered the Gypsies. I understand that they're people too but the ones I saw were rude and cursed at my group when they didn't get what they wanted. I didn't mean to offend anyone but I wanted to spark some debate. I've enjoyed everyone comments. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Be blessed.

Thanks for tying it all back jysuper...I only hope that we can all realize what you said: That we're each entitled to an opinion. With such a hot topic, there's bound to be controversy.

I caught this article on El Pais. Interesting which comment they took for the attention-getting headline:

http://www.elpais.es/articulo.html?d_dat...nchor=elpepupor

There were a couple dozen putdowns in the personnel files, but the headline on this article is what is a hot topic. I think that we're already well aware of how polemic this topic can be!

Calibasco,
Thank you for sharing the article with us. ¡Que horror! What sheer arrogance on the part, assumably, of the HR department of that grocery store. I hope that this is not the typical way that other Spanish businesses select their employees. It was obvious that the person interviewing set great store by what people looked like. The writer emphasized physical characteristics as much as racial profiling for not hiring. What fascinated me was that out of the thirteen commentaries listed, the comment about gitanos made the front line.

I just want to thank those of you who have sent me personal messages about my hasty departure from the board. Several of you have apologized for giving offense, and I want to let you know that you did not. I found that what was happening was this...

I would read a post and get upset by it, because it seemed to generalize in dangerous ways or because it made assertions that I worried were too broad. Then I would go dashing off all over the Web and beyond, trying to find additional information about whatever the statement had been. Then I would come back here, share that information, and think all was done.

But then someone else would have posted, supporting the earlier statement, or making another that seemed too broad, or insensitive...and off I would go again...searching for information, coming back here to share it, etc.

This could have gone on forever. I also found that I was feeling like many of the responses were too personalized, that people were trying to convince me that I was wrong. Just to clarify once again, I don't think I can change any one person's mind about this, but I do think that it's important to get all sides out there. I feel strongly about this issue--but so do many people. We can probably all agree that we wish that the situation for gitanos in Spain were different--and the question of whether the situation is their fault or not is one that will not be resolved here.

And in the meantime, in between my frequent (but harebrained) attempts to change the world, I have a child to care for and a dissertation to write! So I will stop in from time to time to see how you're all doing, and I do wish all of you nothing but happiness, both here on the board and in real life!

Hi Taravb,
So glad you're back! I totally understand about the dissertation bit, I'm doing the same thing right now,I'm working on Chapter 2, the lit review, and the only thing that is keeping me sane is the wonderful postings in Madrid Man.

I have learned so much here, not only about Spain but other issues as well, such as was discussed on this thread, the plight of the gitanos in Spain. The seriousness of their situation is clearly underscored in the very sad article that Calibasco just shared above.

Y otro ha sido rechazado por 'Repipi y con acento andaluz'! ¡Jo'é macho!, si es que incluso a mí me han quitao la ilusión de trabahar de cahera! Me cago en la leche (semi-desnatada) de su putomercado!

I think in Spain the external appearance is very important to find a job, specially when it's in front of public. I think this is very extended, although normally it's more a global appearance than a question of race.
What I find more exasperating are the comments unrespectful against people who are just looking for an honest job.

Just a FYI for all on the topic--
El Mundo today published an article about a young gitano who is a member of the FUndación Secretariado General Gitano and an estudiante de 4o de Derecho who is trying to help young gitanos stay in school.

It's a short article but interesting because it remarks upon Juan José Bustamante's attempts to combat the stereotypes surrounding Roma ethnicity and, at the same time, dialogue with gitano families to help the students overcome the hurdles of public education in Spain. Dice el artículo: "Según Juan José, 'sólo un 1% [de gitanos] estudia en la Universidad'" But this is apparently a success considering 'the high rates of illiteracy that there were only a few years ago.'

The article is in M2, p. 8, and title is "Cuestión de educación."

I really really hope that in the future the majority of the gypsies in Spain would go to the school to the colleges and that they would and could work as any other spaniard, that is: that they would be integrated in the rest of the society, as any other ethnia and culture.

I have said in this thread all what I think about how the gypsies are in Spain. I would be glad to see how wrong I am, and see gypsies "en mass" be working, studying and living as the rest of us. That day I will drink a good wine of champagne

Fernando

taravb writes: I thought this board was real life! Am I wrong?

Isn't it a Spanish myth that education and healthcare are free to all Spaniards? Last time I checked children had to buy all their own books and employed people had to pay certain amounts for healthcare (and wait for up to months to be seen). I can see why so many Spaniards have private insurance. And I guess many Spaniards only like to dance to gypsies. sad....but true:(

It's true, you have to pay the books and they are expensive, anyway you have right to a free school until eighteen years old and there are helps for the poorest families to pay the books, the transport and the lunch. You can also manage to buy 2nd hand books at a very good price, although they try to change editions very often. I have two years more than my brother and he couldn't use my books.
About health insurance it doesn't covers dental care, glasses ... and it goes slow, I had a problem with my hearing in january and I got an appoinment for one month later! Fortunately I have a private insurance. For serious illness and urgencies normally public health is better than normal private health.

There is nothing free... we pay it via taxes.

Public school is "free" until the child reaches 18 years-old. Education is obligatory until 16 years-old.

As for the public health care it is free for all citizens, althought is not as good as a private insurance. That means that at least people don't die near a hospital only because he has no private insurance.

Toddy, I hear a certain ironic tone. I would be glad to hear your opinion on how spanish society behaves. Do you think our society model is a good one? Perhaps you may share with us what you think is wrong in our social system

Fernando

I guess Fernando, I have found it hard to have an itellectual debate because the tone I get is that Spain is "better" than the USA. It is hard to get past this subjective emotionalism and also very hard to dispel these Spanish myths that keep going around. I understand that health care is not free for everybody and many people have to pay some money for prescriptions. Also, education is not so free if you have to pay for your own books. I don't think Spanish society is bad or good. I HAVE observed a lot of Spaniards put down American society, while at the same time mimicing it more and more everyday. Is this a cultural inferiority complex brought on by 40 years of dictatorship, I don't know. But it sounds like a great course.

Interesting...

Obviously spanish society is far from perfect, nor it is american society or any other.

I have to agree with you that spaniards are more than proud of their way of living, and that sometimes we think that all spanish is the best.

That is something I really hate. People here can't see when someone is worth of being admired, or to think what we could learn from other cultures (specially when those cultures have proved better in certain ways, for example the hard work in USA).

In other words: We are as chauvinistic as the most chauvinistic country (France?). We think that our food is the best (which is argueable), our beaches are the best, our customs are the best, and our society model is the best.

Said this, we should also recognize that there are things worth of admiring here. And I must say one of the things I like is the "free" education and health care.

Besides, you should take in mind that we are on a message board which is about Spain. So it is normal that everybody here talks about the good things of Spain (would you really consider what you don't like of Spain when thinking about a trip?).

Enjoy what you like, and forget what you dislike (or open a new thread and we will discuss it as evenly as possible)

Fernando

Fernando you sound a little like Don Quijote. Once again, education is not free in Spain and neither is health care. I understand that many people MUST pay for their prescription medication AND children must pay for all of their schoolbooks. So free is another Spanish myth.
(Remember Mr. Quijote, that's a windmill and not an army)

I'm afraid the old adage, "There's no such thing as a free lunch!," comes into play. The money that goes into the educational system comes from taxes, and therefore, since people pay taxes directly or indirectly, they pay for education. Of course politicians like to use the "free education" rhetoric to make them look good, but if you look past the words, and to the truth, income taxes in Spain are high, and the 16% VAT tax is outrageous. Guess what? That's where they get the money for the "free" education and national health programs. It certainly isn't a gift from the tooth fairy, or a generous benefactor.

Considering how low the wages are for doctors in Spain's national health system, and how high they can be in "private practice" where they can exact money from private insurance companies, guess where all the best doctors end up practicing? It certainly isn't going to be within the national program, where they would make three or four times less than they would, in private practice.

Still, I do agree it's nice to have a national health program. I think the US should have one too. As for education, basically we have a similar program of education as Spain, but we acknowledge readily that we pay for it through our property taxes. We don't try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes by saying it's free when it certainly isn't.

Wolf (Who's never had what he really considered a "free lunch" in life. You end up paying for it one way or another in the end.)

Wolf, thanks again for bringing rational thought to this debate. I think that the US could benefit greatly from preventitive free health care. However, I would be a little concerned about providing total free health care as modern life saving medicine is very very expensive. I am curious, though, to wonder how far the "free" health care system in Spain goes. Would they pay for any life saving treatment? I can't imagine any country could afford 100,000 dollars (or euros) a day to provide some of the modern medical treatments to their citizens.

Toddy you will really be funny to see in any comic show... So I'm a Don Quixote... what imaginative and kind you are!

But you demonstrate again that you have not much idea on how the spanish health care system works. Medication also comes from the health care system and is normally "free" (Watch this time for ", it means that it is not really free, but payed via direct or indirect taxes).

The families with the higher incomes have no free schools. The poorer families have not to pay for their children schools, but yes, have to pay for books. Health care is totally free when the treatment is something important (as far as I know dentist, aesthetic cirugy, etc are not free).

Besides, there are economic aids to the poorer families to acquire the books at a lower cost.

Fernando

Fernando,
Sorry for my tone and sarcasm, but I'm just a little tired of people on this site thinking they have to put down the US to make Spain sound better.
And once again, I understand that many people have to pay some money for their prescriptions directly(not via taxes).
I am also still very curious about where the "Free" healthcare ends. Most of the modern life saving and extending medicine and machines are very very expensive. With a huge aging Spanish population, the "Free" must end somewhere.

.......still waiting.......