I just returned yesterday from Madrid back to Vancouver, Canada. I was also in Barcelona. A beautiful city I must say. But I was in shock in Madrid!!! I've travelled all over western and eastern Europe as well as the Middle East and Orient. And I must say, the standards are so low in Madrid, I was appalled to say that this was a 1st world city I was in. The standards were like those of a third world country. Here's a few of my examples; the tapas bars: Dirt from food, bones, shells, and napkins under the stools. I read the Madrid people believe why clean up several times when they can clean up once at the end of the day. Disgusting I thought! Also the washrooms in public places. No paper is expected as I always carry my own tissues, but what about no soap, no water, and flooding floors. What about the dog situation there? Here in Van. if your dog poops and you don't scoop there's a fine up to $5000. I sometimes missed the sites because I was afraid to walk into poop and get it clogged in my runners. Talk about filthy. People just let there dogs do their doo in the middle of the sidewalk! The streets are filled with garbage. I was at a huge carnival for the Patron St. Isabella 2 nights ago and I never saw so much garbage in my life. After Bingo, people just tossed their losing game sheets on the street. There were very few garbage cans anywhere. Well all I can say is that it gives the city workers, whom you notice plenty of in those neon green uniforms a job. I won't even go into the details of the garbage on the streets after the crazy people heard that Madrid won the big soccer match 2 nights ago. I was a near riot. Tear gas, scratched store windows and people sitting in the middle of traffic on the ground in a row boat style, screaming at the top of their lungs. Hope to hear others opinions on this. And no offence to anyone, it's just MY opinion!

I think you must have caught the city at a bad time.....the event you're talking about was the Real Madrid fans celebrating their victory in the UEFA cup and they usually mass in central Madrid to do this (Cibeles). I have been to Madrid several times and I have never thought of the city as being dirty.... quite the opposite in fact. I remember being amazed that they came out late at night to hose down the street of the city centre - something I wish they'd do where I live. I must admit I was shocked on my first visit to see the floors in bars etc covered with rubbish but it was explained to me that they clean this up frequently... why place all your rubbish on the bar counters or tables when you can chuck it on the floor where it will eventually be swept up? It makes sense to me. I think the Spanish are as good as anyone else at cleaning up after a big event and I reckon you must have passed through Cibeles before they had a chance to get going on the rubbish the Real fans let behind.

I would not let your initial impression put you off Madrid .....do come back and try it again and I garantee you'll leave thinking differently.

I will restrain myself just say that 6 million people together make a mess, and that I find Madrid cleaner than Rome or New York.

I had to laugh at this part. This is usually the thing that MOST "outsiders" find most repulsive whereas I find it one of Spain's most guarded treasures. I LOVE THIS CUSTOM of throwing napkins, bread crust, and shrimp heads towards the trash can located under the counter. Most times they miss, but the floors are swept clean about once an hour depending on the establishment.

Spaniards take GREAT pride in cleanliness. How often do you think a typical restaurant in a "FIRST world country" sweeps their floors? Answer: once a day if that. And how often do you see manual street sweepers in the US in the streets, sweeping the streets and picking up litter by hand? Almost never. It's true, Spaniards tend to litter more, I think, but they clean up more often too. How often have you been to a hotel in the US and found the tub/toilet/bathroom dirty? You'll almost NEVER find this in Spain.

Sure. Spain and other countries are different in many many ways. We're not all the same (thank god). But let's not get a superior attitude over those whom have standards DIFFERENT (not better or worse, but DIFFERENT) from our own.

alabina, I'm so sorry you didn't have an enjoyable time in Spain (or maybe you did??). I'm sure there are many other places in Europe or the world which would make you quite happy. So cross Spain off your list and move on to the next one. Try to keep an open mind towards those countries, their economies, and the peoples therein and also consider their situations, lives, and challenges. Try to see things from THEIR perspective as opposed to your own and you'll learn and appreciate much more. Enter a new country/city/culture with your eyes & mind open and not shut.

I've visited your Vancouver, British Colombia, (in fact, my brother-in-law lives there now and soon so will my sister) and must say I have NEVER seen a city SO neat and clean in my entire life!! You are truly living in a bubble there. I was tempted to have my afternoon meal on a manhole cover in the middle of an alley! Really, this place is SPOTLESS. I imagine city government spends multi-millions to keep it looking this way. Vancouver is SHOCKINGLY clean and I'm not just saying that to sharply oppose your comments about Madrid.

Thanks for your feedback. Happier Travels! Saludos, MadridMan

I have to agree with MadridMan about the custom of throwing napkins and other bar debris on the floor. I don't mind it a bit, and have found that most barkeepers do sweep more often than once a day (imagine if they didn't--the stuff would be more than ankle deep!). And of course any city will not look its best after a massive celebration.

That said, Madrid can sometimes be a bit messy (paper in gutters, etc.) but, as you said, there always seems to be someone "on patrol" cleaning up. And in other cities, you'll see somewhat cleaner streets--in Salamanca, for example, I have watched them hose down the Plaza Mayor after a busy evening (ever seen that in American cities?) and it's not unusual to see a little driving vacuum-cleaner meandering through the streets there (it looks like the Nuu-Nuu from the show Teletubbies, a bit). There are more trash cans in other cities too--I think Madrid has far too few!

Vancouver is certainly a pristine city (and the parks and flowers--amazing!), but I wouldn't rank Madrid on a normal day below any other major city in either the US or Europe. The bars are another matter--but it's just a custom and one I can't imagine anyone's inclined to change!

So watch your step when you tiptoe through the shrimp heads!

I think that we are really not perfect...

It is a shame for Madrid that someone thought that Madrid is not a clean city, no matter how other cities are.

The dogs issue is a shame, and you are right alabina...

Perhaps all this stuff has something to do with the fact that we live outside doors and do not value the cleansing as much but no excuses. For me it is a shame.

I hope the next time you came here you don't find again the same dirty city.

Fernando

Many years ago, my wife and I were discussing the same subject about cleanliness, in regards to another place which will remain unmentioned. We decided at that point that there were two types of dirt.

There's the dirt we make ourselves, and find acceptable, and the dirt someone else makes, and that's not acceptable.

It has nothing to do with whether or not a place is dirty as much as it does what we are used to seeing every day, and accept as being just another part of our landscape.

In this case, I think that's what actually is being discussed, but it's hard to realize it, because we are all accustomed to things in our own little worlds, and what we see around us may be very different in other parts of the world.

A good example which actually relates to sound, is that people living near airports rarely even hear the sounds of jets, wherein visitors to their homes find the noise annoying, and distracting.

So... when we travel... we have to learn to accept these differences, and realize the conditions we see probably are no worse than what we see at home... and ignore.

Wolf (Who's going to wash his hands now... I noticed a grease spot on my computer keyboard... one of my kids used it! )

Wolf, your comment about noise pollution from jets hits home here in South Minneapolis, where we hear jets flying directly overhead all the time. We have become accustomed to it, as have many of our neighbors...we will stop conversing outside for long enough for the planes to pass over, and my husband even did a taped evening news interview "between planes" in our front yard the other day! The reporter is also from South Minneapolis, so it was no big deal to him either!

Your "my dirt/your dirt" distinction certainly holds up in our house...and in many cities too, I suspect.

I still love the messy bar floors, though I would never consider invoking the "5-second-rule" for dropped food there like I would with my own floors at home!

Tara,

I love your reference to the "5 second rule," which all of us probably live by. If we didn't, we probably wouldn't eat half of what we do... I also understand full well what you mean about the planes. It becomes second nature to us.

I too found the customs in Spain different but not offensive, and to be honest, I've always enjoyed going in "peanut bars" here in the US, where we dumped the peanut shells on the floor, after shucking them to eat. In a way, it was "different," and not a health hazard, so why not? Because of this, I think it was easy for me to accept the differences in Spain. They certainly aren't dirty people, and I always marveled at how receptive most people were in following the rules where they didn't take their garbage out to the dumpster until after 10 PM, and the fact that the dumpsters were emptied early in the morning, to insure they weren't hanging around as a fly attraction.

I've had people tell me how they thought it was "gross" when those beautiful jumbo shrimp were cooked, and served to them, complete with heads, and all... To me it wasn't a problem, and I got pretty good at snapping off the heads, and getting the shells off... you had to, if you wanted to enjoy that great delicacy, because nobody would stop eating to feel sorry for you...

Dogpiles are a problem in Madrid. I guess we all know that, but it certainly wasn't something that ruined my day, or made me feel that the city wasn't clean. Like anywhere, there are those that will violate the law, just like the turkeys back here, who have to throw empty bottles, cans, and garbage out their windows while they travel along a scenic road.

In many respects, I wish Americans would show as much pride in their cities and towns as Spaniards do. We have this tendency to bleed everything we can from our major metro areas without giving a nickel back towards making it a nicer place to live or visit. It's hardly a message I like sending to people in other countries.

I have mixed emotions on the public restrooms in Spain. Some are very clean, while others are terrible. But if I was to grade them against what I've seen in the US, I'd say the US gets a "C" for condition, while Spain gets a "C+." But, I do think alabina could make points on this one, because I've never seen cleaner rest rooms than in Vancouver. I'd give them a "B." It takes a lot to get an "A" in my scale... an awful lot.

Wolf (Who's looked those shrimp in the eye, and told them they were going down!!!! )

Travb & Wolf...try F-16s flying over your house every day! Still can't get used to that one!