I don't know if I am been watched, how could Iknow?. But I know that years ago a guy came to the flat I was sharing in Oviedo, pretending he was interested ina room. He didn't come back, but my flatmate was a good friend and told me he was a policeman investigating me because I am basque.

I have also had a machine gun pointing at me at Bilbao, just because Guardia Civil were searching for ETA members, Yes, the same Guardia Civil that KILLED three guys in Almeria because they thought they were from ETA, and hided the bodies later. One of them, a Commander. How long have EFFETIVELY been the imprisonments if there were any? Can somebody tell me?

About those people crying Gora ETA, those who have been identified by videos have been accused, and some (including high representatives of basque nationalist parties) ARE IN JAIL for it.

Ignacio

So many 'inexactitudes' have been published here that it is going to take me weeks to correct them with the truth. I will try to give links to additional info as far as I can.

By order:

Replay: The BC has been a nation and a kingdom for centuries. It is much older than Spain. There were basque states in both sides of Pyrinneees before the romans. Read History, then talk.

If it hadn't been so, still BC is Kingdom of Navarra. Pamplona, Navarra's capital old name is Iruña (the Basque name), and the bishop of Pamplona, has been called bishop of Iruña, centuries after the new name (Navarra) was created.

Learn the History of Navarra, and you'll learn too about the basque country.

About Basque Country History in 'Spain', before Spain (in English)

About BC and Navarre:

Euskadi=Navarre (also in English)

Ignacio

[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Fernando,

15 to 20% of the basques are for the independence?

It is a joke, no? Come on let us see if you can understand the deep meaning of the world NATIONALIST, for those were the votes winning in the BC. PNV & BATASUNA HAD MORE OF THE HALF OF THE VOTES IN SPITE THAT HALF OF THE POPULATION OF THE BASQUE COUNTRY COMES FROM THE REST OF SPAIN. All the basques voted Nationalist, which is different to regionalist, as much as Nation is different from Region.

Most of these want independence , but the PNV is more prone to condemn violence to acquire it than Batasuna.

Come on! When I was a kid I had to be taught basque in hidden classes, it was forbidden, as Cali said.

quote: 'it is impossible to learn only in castellano (spanish)'

F.A.L.S.E., false. Those of the forum friends who have been to the BC have spoken in Spanish with the old and the young. There are four types of teaching, the one (very few extended because we're in Spain, and need CAstellano) where you learn in Basque and there is a class of Castellano, a mixed one, the one in Castellano with basque classes (the more extended) and the Castellano only type.

quote: 'The language? Which one? The actual euskera is a mix based upon a dialect called "batua".'

I could say the same of spanish and its andalucian, valencian varieties and so on.
Centuries of isolation between valleys, when the means of transpot were animals, had made it split, not having the possibility to
naturally merge for the lenguage was forbidden by Franco, when people could travel more easily.

Fernando,

quote: 'why is EH (the only party who supports ETA) prosecuted and courted by the justice? First, it was not the party which was courted, they were its bosses'

All the main leaders of a party (about ten, twelve?) are prosecuted, and you mean the party is not prosecuted? What about making the party and all alike illegal: Herri Batasuna, Euskal Herritarrok? Cause that's what happened.

I agree with Cali when he says that it is not the basques who are brainwashed at school, but you españolistas, yes, they teach you we have never been a country, but every historian out of Spain says the opposite. Who is brainwashed?

Yes, CAli, half of the population is transplanted from andalucia, castilla and galicia, but the 'Fueros' were not exactly signed to 'to gain the cooperation of the Basques', they were the conditions that the basques put on the king to accept him as his. They were laws promised, and then treasoned by Spain, just like Barcelona, who enjoyed a bombing for rebelling against a king who told off the fueros in the 18th century.

Fernando:

When we basque say we're different we don't mean we are better, we're showing one more reason why we don't belong to Spain. If Philipines still belonged to Spain, as they did, they would give similar reasons.

I always hear that old tale that catalonians are wise enough to wait (which means we're not. Kind of an insult, no?) to fight pacifically for i ndependence but, where has this leaded them? They are not closer to independence than they were 20 years ago. So, why they do better? And their complains that Spain takes a lot from Catalonia and gives back few are sitematically ignored year after year.

Ignacio

Fernando:

Many many navarros are and have been for the Ikurriña, I can show you a post in other forum where a navarro is against Navarra belonging to the Basque country, because he says the Basque Country belongs to Navarra. It is the same no matter the name you give it.

BTW, look at the surnames of the guys of navarra who don't feel basque, wether they are Zabala, Etxeandia, Zubizarreta, Urkiza (basque origin) or Fernandez, Garcia, Lopez, Marin, (spanish), and then it may be easier to understand why they don't feel basque.

For God's sake, you only have to see the names of the old navarran cities and villages! Most of them (the older) are still in Basque.

Have you ever heard of a design of a flag that gave a small nation an Empire? Are you serious about the birth of Ikurriña copying the British flag? Go to a doctor, if so.

ETA, as you well said (for once) does not represent legally the BC, but for many nationalists, it has the same representativity as the spanish army for Spain, for they consider it their army, and the nationalist parties their voice.

Why do you insist that it is different from N. Ireland, the separating ex-URSS republics, the kurdos in Turkey, and so many others? It is obvious that people think very alike in these places.

Continuará...

Ignacio

Fernando writes:

I am clearly (and unfortunately ;)) not Spanish and don't live in Spain (again, unfortunately). And this sentiment of sarcasm among some Spaniards with regards to life (politics, religion, others) often eludes me.. I (and MANY from other parts of the world) take these things in a literal sense and for this reason, in part, I/we may at first sense anger, violence, or confrontation when it may only be a form of expression which is foreign to my/our way of expressions.

So, maybe I misunderstood, was mistaken, or didn't "read" the sarcasm of Discomforme's words (in another thread) or that of others. If this is the case, I apologize. So you see, I'm learning even MORE about Spanish customs and the culture and this interaction is valuable to me. Thanks to everyone on this message board and to the Spaniards in particular for your enlightenment -- and yes, with all the different opinions too.

Saludos, MadridMan (have a nice weekend, everyone!)

[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

Fernando:

quote: 'They may pursue their objectives: independentism, via the basque parlament.' How possibly can they do this? Hey, you might be the peacemaker if you know that.
For the PNV, EA, and HB, all nationalist parties have been trying to reach Independence through pacific ways for the last 20 years of democracy. But the central government has said in several ocasions that the votes of the basques are not enough in this matter. And by sheer number, the Spanish parliament will never vote for it with its two major parties' supporters being fanatic Spain nationalists.

Quote (Miguelito): 'I'm not very well documented on history, but as far as I know, the Basque country decided to join Spain freely to be defended from Navarra kingdom.'

It is good to acknowledge one's ignorance, for, in this case, you avoid being caught in it. How could the BC be defended from ITSELF?
Also, Spain was created in the XV century, not the XVI.

Learn Our History! (in English)

Caminante:
(quote): 'CaliBasco, you state "I do, however, understand why they do what they do." I sure don't. Nor should anyone who values human life'

So, there is no reason for war? Not even independence from invaders or tyrans? The fathers of the Homeland (the USA) could not have count on you, the Americans would still be British! And pay all the imaginable taxes.

Mahatmah Ghandi probably thought your way, I don't.

Ignacio

Fernando,

Quote:'You have insulted me in a very rude way'

You not only are insulting people but you are also oversensitive. Cali didn't insult you at all. If he is wrong about you studying in a Catholic school or belonging to PP, that is not an insult (or ask the PP members).

The southern workers came to the Basque Country for a job, but a mixture of the population,and so, of political tendencies was unavoidable. But basques come to Madrid because many Basque, Catalonian, GAlician, ..., multinational firms have to have their headquarters in Madrid if they wabt to make money because Madrid is the Capital city.

And that's the main industry of Madrid, being the Capital City, that's what hundreds of thousands of civil servants (some basque too) give Madrid the taxes and the power it steals to their homelands. Centralism has obstructed the provinces, and helped Madrid for decades. That's why it is today a rich province and so pay as the former richer ones (basque country,and then Catalonia).

What important industries does it have even now? But for some computer ensambling facilities and a couple of average beer factories?

Aren't i.e. Telefónica, with 10.000 workers in Madrid that could work anywhere else (they have centralized activities) and others alike the ones that make Madrid what it is? That's what Madrid's shopkeepers eat on, the main industry in Madrid. Barcelona is what it is (nearly as big as Madrid) with the only help of their work and effort, not stealing jobs and riches through taxes to other provinces.

Ignacio

Fernando:

quote:'Not only the basques suffered the opression of a dictatorship, it was all the country. And here in Madrid we don't want independentism '

How could you? That would mean renouncing to your spanish EMPIRE. You have the power. Ana you are what you are because of what you stole. It doesn't matter that you pay taxes as a rich province, you still get a lot more by the priviledges of being the Capital. And the Mayor has even asked for more priviledges because they are the Capital and suffer a lot of demonstrations (the Capitality law he wants).

BTW he wants people from Spain to show their disconform with Madrid's oppresion in a Manifestodromo (a Demonstration area) outside the city. Not only they expoilate us but they also don't want to hear the cries.

quote :'Never in the history the border between France and Spain has ceased to exist. It is more that a political border. '

You REALLY don't have any IDEA of History, have you? Not only there was a frontier, it existed when there was not a Spain or France, only Acquitaine, Castilla, Aragón, the small kingdom around Paris where the grandfather of Charles the Great created his kingdom, and by that time, the Navarre Kingdom was bigger than theirs!

You say: '"The PP and the curas go hand-in-hand, no?" ¿? I don't know where have you heard that but it is false'

My answer is . Come on! THey have always been like but* and shi*. Always together.

You say, about the Catholic Church (quote): 'they have had a bad role too, being ambiguous at best, protecting terrorists (some curas of the Basque Country) sometimes. '

Those did it as individuals, but the Church itself has always been right-winged, like PP, and akin to the power (if they received funds, and they get a lot!).

quote: 'I may be wrong too' That´s not what you were thinking about when you called me liar.

El Gato (quote):
'"One man's terrorist is another man's patriot."'
I couldn't agree more with ALL of your message. Real common sense.

Wolf: Once again, you also hit the very inside of the matter. Hurrah. You are very right. Boundaries are drawn by victors, and the Governments negotiate only when they are forced to.

Fernando (quote) : 'The Basque Country has never been conquered, investigate it and you will find that it was a part of the castilian kingdom from the very beginning.'

Will you never feel ashamed of you lack of knowledge? See my links avobe or read a non spanish History book, and you'll see that the basque country existed before the castilian kingdom was created, in fact Castilla was a former county of the navarre kingdom(basque), that became independent, growing towards south when fighting the moor. And a thousand years before there was a basque area there without the kingdom style government.

Ignacio

Fernando,

It is amazing how YOU manipulate figures. In your early posts, the independentists were 15 to 20%, then 15 %, now 10 to 15 %, if you go on like this, sonn there will be none!

Wolfgang,

With your post 08-20-2001 you nearly made me cry in relief. It is extremely surprising to hear a foreign voice telling the tale as it really was in this controversed thread, and besides, and doing it so briefly and clearly.

Fernando,
Here is a real JEWEL of yours, quote: 'Also, and more important, the financial complex ETA had was dismounted. Then it comes the brutal killing of Miguel Angel Blanco. Riots of 2 million people in Madrid, 1 and a half in Barcelona and half a million in Bilbao '

If the financial complex of ETA was dismantled, how could it force ETA to a truce? Just wait one/two months (they have always organized fast) and keep on 'working'.

RIOTS of 2.000.000 people in Madrid? That must be everybody except for ancient, invalids, babies and dogs. If there were 2.000.000 people riots, it would be a Revolution.

1.500.000 in BArcelona and 500.000 in Bilbao? Ha, ha , ha ,he ,he BTW, ¿remember that in the last demonstration in Barcelona people required NEGOTIATION shouting?

They offered a year's truce for negotiations, and what they got from the Government was NOTHING, that is the Central Government disposition to discuss self-deermination or independence.

quote: (the government tried to negotiate during the truce indeed).

Can you tell me A SINGLE THING THEY OFFERED, apart from accepting their surrender?

quote: 'There is no single idea worth of a life Wolf.'

You sound as wise as Confucio, but, Could you explain your theory to the invaded Poland or France in WW2? I can't,}. I think there are matters that one can give proudly his life for.

Ignacio