Toddy,
I'm all for cooperation and exchanges of all sorts between Spain and any other country, and that includes the States, obivously. I'm not quite sure I like the Echelon system; among other, more justifiable aims, it's used by the Anglo-Saxons -USA, Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand- to spy on their so-called European allies at all levels: political, economic, industrial and so on. I can't see why our government would be interested in that. Israel has been unable to defeat the Palestinians despite full support from the CIA and the US military intelligence system. I can't see how cooperation between Spain and the US could bring about the end of ETA, a problem which is a much lesser cause of concern to the US government than the Middle East situation.

Anyway, as I said, I do not want to sound hyper-critical of the States. I admire a lot of things over there, but I can't help to notice all the flaws. Who can, given the huge influence of the Americans in our world?

Finally, yes, I'm afraid the main reason why the relative number of gypsies in Spanish prisons is higher is because they suffer discrimination in Spain. This is something I should have thought most people in Spain would agree with, but I might be wrong.

I said I would not write again in this matter - too dangerous in Spain-, but I hope this link to Amnesty International will clear the many lies that are posted here everyday.

A. International link

Ignacio

N.B.: After all, this is not my opinion

Boy, you step away for a couple of days and voilá!

Marco: You said "although things are inevitably going to change for purely demographical reasons." Are you insinuating that because of a population demographic shift that "'whites' will no longer be able to discriminate against 'Hispanics'?" Nothing's going to change for me...regardless of who "the man" is. Is this some clever plot that the hispanic man has introduced? Are they having a ton of kids only to later (20 years later) vote out "the man"? Shrewd...I'd better move to Canada to avoid "the brewing conflict". Ja ja jí. :p

Oh, and this gem: "So please, please, no more lessons from the US on that issue". I'm sure you'd like to post your country of origin, but since practically no country is without guilt or a 'history' of intolerance cleverly omitting your residence has afforded you a means to "one-way" bash the US. That's fine, as the entire world seems to enjoy this as a hobby. I suppose when you're in, say, Palestine, Colombia, or some other war-torn corner of the world, or perhaps in an area where you wish you had it as free and easy as we do in the US, it's easier to blame the Monster America for your troubles than work on solving them yourself. Beat me, whip me...when I recover from your lashes, I know I can walk down the street safe, vote my conscience, speak my mind, and get 300 channels of digital-quality television (all that AND get a 64 oz. "Bladder Buster" drink from Circle-K WITH ice for under a dollar!)!!!

Perhaps we would all do well to remember that this is a SPAIN message board, and that we'd all be better served to stick to those topics, eh MM?

I'm sure we could all post a million foolish diatribes (I've put in my share...anyone else care to fess up?), but the fact of the matter is, that everytime this ETA thread opens up, someone compares it to something else, gets misunderstood, someone else comes along and gets their undies in a bunch and their precious ego damaged :(, and we all end up spending 100 posts trying to defend our precious opinion. I spent the weekend with 1000 Basques here in SoCal...and not ONE of them mentioned ETA once! I think by them not talking, they were trying to tell me something...perhaps we should all listen.

CaliBasco [Euskalduna bai...eta su?]

Lots of flaws in EVERY country.
The influence of the United States is caused because they make everyone behave a certain way orrrrrrrrr.......wait reflective thought........a lot of Basque Sheepherders have come to America, but then who are the sheep?
Any way you slice it, lamb tastes good!

Calibasco,
forgive me if I don't pivk up on most of the thoughts in your last post. As for my country of origin, I thought I made it very clear that I'm from Spain. As you well know, we too in Spain "can walk down the street safe, vote my (our)conscience(s), speak my(our) mind(s)", except, of course, for the innocent victims of ETA who get blasted by a bomb or shot dead while taking their children to school or going to buy the paper. On a different note, we do not tend to think that freedom or democracy have anything to do with being able to watch 300 channels of digital-quality TV crammed with mindless crap and corporate publicity. I don't know the "Bladder buster" drink you mention, but it does sound good, I'll give you that!

Marco: Thanks for reinforcing my knowledge of how well the Spanish understand sarcasm.

You haven't lived until you've passed out bloated with 64 ounces of Coca Cola, only to wake up at 4:00 a.m. as your thumb, which is stuck with fountain drink syrup to the channel changing button of the remote control in your hand, mindlessly scans through those 300 channels of "mindless crap and corporate publicity". Oh paradise!

Two exams in a row have kept me away from posting in this interesting thread. Too many ideas have been thrown recently here.

Toddy: Your ideas to end with ETA may work in the USA but, althought I think some of them would be great here, the spanish government and the society have a problem: Since our elders have lived in the Franco's regime, we have changed to represion to the other extreme, in which everyone cares of being antidemocratic. Thus, prohibiting certain books because they are too nationalist is considered antidemocratic (no matter how big the lies they contain).

I like the Echelon system if it is used to end with ETA.

Ignacio: Don't be hypocrite and cinycal. Keep on posting and share your (missguided) opinions with us or don't post, but please don't say you are not going to post anymore and then surprise us with a page of International Amnesty (an organization that I don't like just a bit).

Have the police jailed you yet for your "last" post?

You have not posted any opinion, but I have visited the link you gave us. One may consider that what you mean (I only guess...) is that ETA kills because GAL killed before. For me both organizations are a group of terrorists and their members should be in jail. Not any single murder is acceptable, not even if it is also a terrorist. The GAL is state-terrorism, which is a shame to a democracy.

On the other topics: I feel that Spain has a lot to learn about USA, about the good things (such as your hard-working) and the bad things (I personally hate the death-penalty because I'm against any kind of murdering).

But believe it americans (this also work for other forgeiners): You also could learn precious things from other cultures. USA is not the perfect society, of course you are the main world power, but there are yet things you can improve in your lifestyle

We share (in general) a common pryde in regard of our countries. We see any critic as an attack. Something I have learn here is that we should take the critics as what they are: weak points.

Regards.

Fernando

Ok, I have to go on.

After weeks of biting my lips with wishes of taking part in the discussion of the topic, and not daring because (I don't want to give you or anybody ideas) just if this page was sent to the police or denounce my at a court would give me a lot of problems no matter if they found me guilty or not - They shouldn't since I never said I am for ETA or encourage people to follow ETA -, and if they did, which is not impossible if you see how matters related to ETA have been treated by courts (incredibly partially - it is also in the link), I could be imprisoned up to two years according to law!!! Unfortunately, in this country, generally democratic, this is a topic that is uniformely treated by the españolistas party's controlled newspapers, and where courts(once again, against what is the usual thing), don't behave impartially. Does anyone believe judges and newspapers would be impartial in Macedonia about Albanians or in Turkey about kurdos?

Amnesty International is the world's best know and respected international agency for Human Rights, and it is the source for most of the information we get about abuses on liberties in communist countries, women's mutilations in Africa, or taliban fanatism in Afghanistan. It is free of prejudices against the Governmet or the Basque Country, as much as it is free of them towards any of the countries they write about: China with the killing of female babies or the russian army tortures in some revolting regions.

I have decided to keep calm as much as possible, no matter the many lies posted by the rest of the spanish nationality members of this forum, with special mention to you and Marco, so I will not answer you insults (quotes):

Ignacio: Don't be hypocrite and cinycal

Ignacio you made me really sick. Can you sleep with your own conscience?

you know you are not in danger. Shut up liar!

Manipulator...

Don't speak for me liar!

Liar is what you are

Yesterday president Aznar sayed that he won't mind to talk about separation, but that the focus should be in finish ETA. Liar!

If I were you I will not sleep well with my conscience.

Who the hell has prohibited you to talk?! LIAR!

NASTY, THIS MAKES ME SICK.

the healthy programs, etc etc etc. LIAR

Only 20% of the people want independentism, see the polls of the nationalist government liar!

I'm tired of you and your lies and foolnesses

Ignacio

ps:THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR YOU CIVILIZED WAYS AND RESPECTING OTHERS' OPINION, YOUR MANNERS SAY A LOT ABOUT ESPAÑOLISTAS' ATTITUDES TOWARDS DIALOG AND UNDERSTANDIG

[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

At last you dare to share some of your opinions with us

Don't bit your lips about this topic. Althought you try to convince all the readers that Spain is a taliban country in this matter you certainly know that you may not be court for posting here. The crime which is tipified in the spanish Penal Code to which you refer is "Terrorism Apology". This means making direct menaces or publicly supporting terrorism. As you know (but other readers not) there have been riots (with few people attending fortunately) in which attendants have yelled "¡Gora ETA!" and they have not been courted. They have made acts of public supporting to death ETA terrorists (they died while preparing bomb-cars) with ETA anagrams. They were not courted.

"...just if this page was sent to the police or denounce me..." For sure I have better things to do that denounce you for posting your opinions in a forgein board (since this pages are in an american server they don't need to comply the spanish Penal Code). Do you thing I would enjoy denouncing all the boarders who have posted an opinion opposite than mine? Don't make me laugh...

Who is dying Ignacio? The nationalists and separatists or the people menaced by ETA?

Now, your point is: The government is corrupt and control every news media, the courts are partial and the human rights are sistematicly violated in regard of this matter. Sure. Please go to your beloved International Amnisty and find something about your accusations.

Yes I have called you liar. Liar is the one who lies, and that is what you have done. Yes I called you manipulator, you have tried to manipulate the opinions of those who read this message boards.

And yes, I'm "español" and "españolista", but not in they way you think. "Españolista" is the one who has love for the things tipical and characteristical of Spain. In that way I'm "españolista".

Don't talk about lack of respect and civilized ways please. Lies are a lack of respect. And certainly to verbally attack Spain is not a civilized way, nor a smart one, of claiming independence for your nation (not to talk about terrorism, which I guess you support or at least you are simpathetic with).

Please, don't make theater with this matter. For a forgeiner it may seem serious, but for any other spaniard talking about spies and courts for posting in this message board is a joke...

Fernando

Well, on that matter I will discuss no longer, there is international cooperation between judges, and requests of this type of proofs have been made before. Besides, simply downloading the page and storing it in a PC would help a lot to an accusation in this unfair legal and news country regarding Basque country. And there is people in jail because of SAYING things in political meetings that an impartial (ha, ha) judge could consider similar to what I could say here, no matter that I didn't support ETA, but speaking of independence is VERY dangerous here.

This is the only article I have read where the writer (in the well known newspaper El Mundo) says he is ASHAMED of the treatment the press of this country has massively given to the Basque elections some months ago.

Sorry it is in Spanish, anyone neutral could give a briefing?

See the truth!

How can you agree to ECHELON. The CE has just finished an investigation on it, and the press said a couple of days ago that they found it to be a system for for spying PRIVATE ECONOMIC AFFAIRS, so, it is bad for you and me and has few to do with ETA.

Ignacio

[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]