Toddy, I've not criticized the USA, I don't understand why you put yourself in the defensive.

I've said that there are things I like, and things I like less. If I had to live outside Spain, I would probably choose the States.

And you are right, there is a lot of things Spains could learn from the States. Perhaps more than what you could learn from Spain. You are also right, USA is the main power of the world, military and economicly, noone deny it.

Hi Wolf.

Again what I said to Toddy. I admire your patriotism, but I don't understand why you think I have attacked the States with my posts.

"Fernando,
You hardly know us, or how we are."

Maybe. I have told you that I have just been a month in the USA, so the best I could do is to get some conclusions, which can be wrong, or can be right.

"Our President, whether we voted for him or not, is our national leader, and we offer respect to him, as such. That's the way it should be. We are the "United" States, not a coalition of countries with their own agendas."

Great! That's one of the things I like from the States. Here the President and the ministers are hardly respected. It is not uncommon to see a minister in a tricky situation (in Barcelona some strikers threw tomatoes to a minister, and all the media and the oposition blame the minister of the police actuation which occured after that).

Yoy must understand that it sounds fun when we see how you think about your president.

"I've heard Spaniards say that the illegal Morrocans should go home. What you hear someone refer to in the U.S. is that the illegal Mexicans should go home. It's the same thing, not a conspiracy against them. In fact over the years they have been allowing many of them to gain U.S. citizenship."

Now about 3 million if I'm well informed. Yes, spaniards are a bit "hostile" to morrocans, probably the same as mexicans in the States. Any of the situations is wrong. Keep in mind, I have not said spanish society is perfect or a paradise, I was only pointing some things that surprised me when I was there, and I didn't know before.

"The question of us owning guns is an interesting one. It is our constitutional right to own them..."

Excuse me if it appeared as if I was saying there are no illegal arms in Spain. See, my english is far from perfect

I really don't like that the weapons are that extended in USA. I know it is a constitutional right, and that it is more justified than in other countris (certainly I will have one if the nearest town is 50Km away). In Spain there are much less weapons than in the USA, and automatics are only used by ETA from time to time and very uncommonly by other criminal bands.

I believe that the less legal and ilegal weapons there are, the safer all of us would be (it's just my opinion, I'm not trying to impose it, just explaining my point of view).

"As for your statement about our movies, I think you're reading a hell of a lot more into things than exists."

Of course. A movie just tell you a story, the rest is interpretation, mixed of what I have seen and expirienced.

Probably Maryland is not a good reflex of the whole States.

Hey, why don't you explain me how it is? I feel you have seen my post as a sour critic of some aspects of your society as a whole. Tell me how you think you are, and I will tell you how I see you; perhaps you could change my point of view

Fernando

Fernando,

Post your e-mail address in your profile if you want to exchange views. It's not really appropriate to get as far off base as we have in this forum.

Wolf (My e-mail address is shown, feel free to contact me.)

Fernando, I think I can speak for most of the Americans on this site. We either love Spain or we want to love Spain. Sometimes, the anti-American rhetoric we hear, most notably from Europeans who keep buying so many American products, makes this love very difficult to foster. But, as the persistent and optimistic Americans that we are, we will continue to pursue this beautiful relationship: Espana y The United States. We have a common history and I really really really believe that we can share a very properous future!
(y tu ingles es mucho mas mejor que mi espanol)

Hi toddy, I really don't understand the logic in that reasoning.

We buy american beings=>We are unauthorized to give our opinion/point of view on any matter regarding America=>If we give it, then you don't like Spain.

Does it make any sense to you?

1st) You probably like Spain or you wouldn't be in this message board

2nd) I can't stand anti-american rethoric, nor pro-american one. Only argumented and reasoned topics. America is a country of contrasts, with things I like, and things I dislike (probably the same as you in regard of Spain).

3rd) I buy american made products because I like them, not because they are made in USA. Do you buy products looking after the country in which it is manufactured?

4th) You don't have to convince me of the good relationship we have and we will have because I have telled you I like USA in general, and I think that having a good relationship will benefit both of us as countries.

Maybe my previous posts were a little rude. Beware that the way we speak (spanish) is more direct than the way you speak (english). You use a lot of expressions unknown to me to soft the statements ("I tend to believe...", "I could agree to a point...", etc). Don't missunderstood me, it is just I don't manage english and such details with diligence, not that I intend to be not unrespecting.

I have repeated by now many times, I like the USA, like its society in general and would like to visit it more, but that doesn't prevent me to see and be aware of what things I dislike of your country and your society. Do you understand what I'm trying to explain? It's a cultural difference, just that.

To put an example: As it has happened, you see any dislike forgeiners could show as anti-americanism and a direct attack to your way of thinking. If it was the reverse, you criticising some aspects of spanish culture or society I will discuss it pleasantly, I could agree or disagree, but I would never see it as a show of anti-spanism (is that word correct? hehehe).

Fernando

Fernando, I think we're getting closer to understanding each other. Maybe, I was not direct enough. What I meant about anti-american rhetoric was not about specific issues, it was about a generalized criticism of the United States. Let me explain: We hear Europeans say, "We hate America" "We think you are the worst country in the World" "We think all you do is export trash culture to Europe." etc. etc. Then the actions we see and read about in Europe is...Europeans by the busload coming to visit America...Robo Cop 10 is a smash hit in Europe...Europe loves Mc Donalds...Europe loves baywatch and American tv...This is my point; debating issues is one thing but generalized negative beliefs about a country is a complete different story. For example, we could debate the morals of Spanish Bullfighting, but I would never say Spain is a terrible violent country that no humane person should call home because they have bullfighting in Spain. And, because of bullfighting, all Spaniards are inhumane cowards. This is what I mean about anti-American hypocrital rhetoric. This is what we hear from the American and European press. I remember the first time I went to Spain someone told me that I wasn't the typical bad American... funny because, I was the first American they ever met!

Fernando:

It is wonderful that you are willing to learn more about the culture. It is important to recognize that even after spending a month in the U.S., you can not have the overall picture of the country. Different regions of our country have different cultures and values. We also have significant differences between urban and rural areas. After living in Sevilla for 6 months, I feel that I have a better understanding of Spaniards in Southern Spain, but I am still largely ignorant of the northern areas, such as el Pais Vasco, Galicia, etc. However, I would love to learn more about those and visit those provinces.

It may seem that people have taken offense at your posts, but I think most people here are genuinely interested in breaking the stereotypes that so many other countries have of us, often because of our entertainment productions.

<<In aaaaaaaall the pictures where the figure of the president is present he is a hero, that implies that he is like a great father for you, the most respected institution of the USA.>>
This is not necessarily what we believe about our actual presidents, but is more of an ideal of what we *wish* our presidents were like. As the elected leader of our nation, we would like to think that in a time of crisis our president would be honorable, courageous, and caring for the people. We all know that this is not necessarily true, but it is the best we can hope for in our national leader. The movies you see where the president is a hero represent our dream of what a good president should be, not the reality of what we actually have. However, for this reason you will find that many of our past presidents have been military heroes. We respect people who make good decisions, are willing to sacrifice themselves for others, and who have a sense of honor and duty.

<<Through the movies we could know that the weapons are quite common in the USA, and that it is rather normal to have one, specially if yoy don't live in a city.>>
This is a generalization, but as in many stereotypes, there is a grain of truth at the heart. As you know, Americans can legally "bear arms." Many foreigners tend to think (due to our movies) that *all* Americans have guns. This is not true. I have never owned a gun, nor do I hope to. No one in my family owned a gun, until my sister married an avid hunter. Therefore, he owns several shotguns and rifles. No handguns, though. Violence is a terrible problem in our country and I agree that there needs to be gun reform. However, that is an entirely separate issue that is politically debated every day.

<<In almost every movie there is a black actor. If it is an action movie the most probable outcome is that he dies in an heroic way, while the white actor survives. What tell me that (and what I've seen in the States)? There is some guilty sense about blacks, it seems you believe you own something to them because all they suffered in the past.>>
This is an amusing statement. If whites feel truly guilty, it seems to me that the white character should be the one to sacrifice himself so that the black character should live. We do have many racial tensions in the United States, and the degree of tensions often depends on the region of the country. I would not say that our movies correctly portray minority groups or racial relations in the U.S., since the majority of directors, writers, and actors in Hollywood all are white.

<<Not to mention that when a latino apears on the screen he is always a narco or the bad guy (fortunately that is changing).>>
There is a reason for this. In the past, our movie bad guys were usually the Soviets or other countries in the Eastern European block due to our strained relations with those countries. Now that the "Cold War" is over, the U.S. doesn't have clear enemies. However, we still have problems with illegal drug trafficking from Central America. So they are the new "bad guys" of our movies. It is unfair and often depicts all Latinamericans in a bad light.

<<I saw in the States that latinos where not welcomed. Some americans told me that mexicans should go back to their country, and that americans should not pay their health treatments.>>
Keep in mind that the U.S. does not have socialized health care, meaning that we all pay for private health insurance. We do have some federal programs which provide health benefits to the poor which are supported through federal taxes. In essence, this means that people who are financially able must pay for their own family's insurance, and are also forced to pay taxes to provide insurance for others. This has created a lot of resentment among many Americans because they do not want to pay taxes that would provide health insurance for illegal immigrants, many of whom do not pay taxes. Again, keep in mind that not all Americans hold the same view on this subject.

<<I was also very surprised when someone told me that before meeting any spaniard he thought we were like mexicans (nothing bad attached to being mexican, but we are phisically different).>>
I think you will find that many Americans are very ignorant about other countries and cultures. A lot of us tend to assume that anyone who speaks Spanish is Mexican.

<<One of the worst things I take back from USA was my impressions about your policemen. Not only they were not helpful, they were very bad educated, they shout at us (I'm not talking about once, but three times we encounter one) althought we were tourists.>>
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the policemen. Were they all in one city or state? I find that our policemen are generally very helpful and dedicated, especially considering the terrible pay and horrible work conditions that they face. However, the quality of policemen varies a *great* deal by city. Some larger cities are notorious for their terrible police departments. So I hope that you won't generalize all U.S. policemen by three encounters.

I apologize for the lengthy note, but hope that this helps clear up a few things.

Well, I have been three times, to NY, Chicago, and Miami once each (fifteen days each), and I think there is a world of variety for me to discover in the USA.

No matter than in some aspects they are very alike, one of the things I have noticed is that you can find any possible way of thinking among them. They are different from each other. May be even more than we are conservative/progressive, old-fashioned/modern, nice/unpleasant, ecologist/polluter, smoker/non-smoker, selfish/generous, anarchist (yes, I met one, in Spain)/capitalist, ...

[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

I live on the border and perhaps my two cents worth will help clarify some immigration issues! One of our biggest problems here in that the United States Government does not pay anything towards the care of illegals. If someone crosses the border and is found barely alive in the desert, the law states that the hospitals MUST take care of this person AT NO CHARGE. The hospitals must eat this expense as there is no possible reimbursement! Now, those of us who are lucky enough have our health care paid for by our employers. Those who are citizens but too poor to pay also have coverage. The rest of us have to pay for our insurance out of pocket or run the risk of huge bills if we need surgery, for example, and don't have health insurance. The illegal alien gets all his medical care FREE! Some of our hospitals are running into serious financial trouble because of this and, of course, the costs wind up going to those who CAN pay...which increases both medical costs and insurance premiums! The stream of those who want to be here is endless, and the cost of taking care of them is really hitting people hard. Mexicans take the blame for this here because, gee whiz, we are right on the Mexican border!! Yes, there are some folks from other countries that cross the border illegally here too (amusingly enough, Vicente Fox is trying to stem the flow of illegals through Mexico's southern border!!!!), but MOST of our illegals are Mexican nationals. I know the rest of the world thinks all Americans have deep pockets, but it just isn't so! When immigration hits folks in the wallet, they stop smiling!

La Maestra:

You are absolutely right, and I should have clarified: illegal aliens do not legally qualify for federal assistance. However, here in NC (and I'm sure in other parts of the country) we have a lot of problems with counterfeit documents (false green cards, SS#'s) being used to solicit benefits.

Also, children born in the U.S. are citizens and therefore qualify for many federal-assistance programs regardless of their parents' legal status. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just another side of the coin.

Thanks for your informative response!