About the "Gypsies"-

Recent DNA and genetic studies have shown that the Rome (or'Gypsy')originated in India and Central Asia. It is suspected that they began migrating west in 500-1000AD due to war and instability in that region.

When the Roma began travelling into South eastern Europe, Many inhabitants there were decendants of the Romans. The only people they had encountered with similiar dark skin and hair were Egyptians. Thus, the Roma were pegged as Egyptian, too. This is the origin of the "Gypsy" name.

Gypsys have retained their culture and lifestyle, and have thus been branded and despised as foriegners and outsiders in their own countries. Besides the Jews, the only other ethnic group targeted for extermination by the Nazis were the Roma. National Geographic did an excellent piece about the history and plight of the Roma through Europe and Middle East a few months back. I reccomend it for anyone wishing to know more about these people.

Tejano:

Yes, gypsy translation is gitano.
About what the government can do, I mainly agree with Pookita: As there is not (and there musn't be) a racist police policy, those involved in crimes are treated like any other criminal group, when they're caught. Unfortunately, spanish laws are weak with criminals, and there are all kind of redemptions and amnesties thet reduce many times in two thirds or more the penalties. So, we will have to cope with it until they slowly integrate or people gets fed up, pushing the parliament for stricter laws. A lot of this 'generous' attitude the law and the government have, is due to the high cost of imprisonment we have to pay.

Thanks Wolf!

Of course, I mentioned a lot of times, I (we) respect those who work for their living, so it is not a racial matter, as you very well said.

Again, Tejano:

You are very right about the difference being the percentage of the crime rate. If you separate Miami, New York, LA, S.Francisco, Gary (Indiana), we could probably say the USA is a reasonably safe country considering the crime rate and its population. The same applies to crime commited by gypsies and the rest of spanish.

Toddy:

I tend to believe the usual protective instinct we have uses to be applied to the risks we face. It would be unreasonable to worry about your kids being involved in figths with the Guerilla in Spain, mainly for there is no Guerrilla here, but it would be reasonable in Colombia. Here, the main danger our kids have to be slabbed are non-integrated gypsies, and that is what we care about.

About the black king in the parades, it was the officialsof the Town Council who decided it should be a white person disguised as a black one, and it was the Media and the people who asked for a black person being Baltasar King.

Kurt:

Thank you for your info. I hadn't related 'gypsy' and 'egypt'. In Spanish, it's rather different: 'gitano' and 'Egipto'.

Romania is called so, after Rome, they always felt they were citizens of the Roman Empire, the name emphasizes it. In Spain, I hear the cultured gypsies call themselves 'Romaní', others call themselves 'Calé' or 'Caló'.

Nobody objects to their traditions, but behaviours that could be admmittable in the 14th century are no longer accepted in the modern society, like selecting a husband aginst the will of son & daughter (they still do, in some clans). Again, most of spaniards don't care about that (unfortunately, because we should be helping enhace gypsy women'status), mainly becuase it does NOT affect us. We care for our safety and our goods'.

Yes, they were the only other ETHNIC group ( they exterminated also some other non-ethnic groups) the nazis exterminated, which is terrible, because nobody has the right to exterminate a race, thus becoming a god-like judge, but that they were victims at that time doesn't give the many who are a nuisance for our society a stealing or assaulting autorization.

And, although I mean (Toddy, read this) THAT THEY SHOULDN'T BE OR HAVE BEEN ILL TREATED IN ANY SENSE AS A RACE, there was a resentment in the German (not only Nazi) society against them, which was used by Nazis as an excuse for their slaughter- guess why. I'll give you a clue ... ¿Being anti-social? ¿Stealing? ¿Slabbing?

Ignacio

My Sep 4 post on this forum attributed the increase in violent crime to 'illegals' and drugs. I didn't even mention Gypsies! Any experience I had with those people indicated to me that they will cheat you and pick your pockets, but they generally abhor violence except perhaps among themselves.

Illegals from North Africa (Morocco, Algeria etc.) are a big problem for Guardia Civil and Spanish Immigration authorities. There are also many from former Eastern European countries (Albania, Romania, etc.) pushing prostitution and hard drugs and the violence that goes along with them.

Sometimes one must admire the Romani for how slick they can be in 'ripping off' a mark: selling fake Rolex watches, gold and diamond jewelry, and all kinds of other stuff. The raza Calé is more likely to try to pick your pockets or steal your 'socks.'

Can we get this forum back to 'Being an American in Spain' please?

Thank you Ingnacio,
I appreciate your willingness you assess the plight of the modern gitano in Spain. \

Always remember, that my French friends think that all Spaniards are just Africans in disguise; lazy, dark, a lot of hair, working for a foreign company, and drunk.

Since I have been to Spain,

I know that this IS NOT TRUE!!

Spain is much more than a cheap holiday.
I believe, as an American, we can gain a lot from a closer relationship and realize the other part of the Unites States' roots. I hope, Ignacio, that you understand that we WANT TO BE YOUR FRIEND.
Don't every forget that and always remember that.
We CAN be the best of friends!

hmm. toddy, you have such and interesting way of phrasing things. It never ceases to leave me shaking my head in dismay...

Interesting perception on the part of your French friends, who have a 35 hour work week and are fairly adept at throwing back the drinks. In fact, I have never had navigate through as many piles of alcohol-induced vomit on the streets as I did when I lived in Rennes.

Interestingly enough, as a job placement officer in kansas city, the African clients were our dream come true, many successfully holding down as many as three jobs (one full time, two part-time). And, out of the Sudanese, togolese, Nigerian, Eritrian, Ethiopian and Somali clients, I only met one who wasn't vehemently opposed to drinking alcohol - muslims and christians included. Now, the folks from the former Yugoslavia were a different story altogether. just my experience

[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: Nicole ]

Gosh Toddy, that is some kind of comment of never heard from other Europeans. Usually Spaniards are known for being Romantic, good looking, (specially women), and for their cool lifesyles. However, this doesn't apply to all Spaniards. Spain is very Diverse.

Agree with you Nicole, Toddy cracks me up sometimes.

Ignacio, no te apures, dale duro.

Hi all,

What Toddy refers to, are stereotypes that he may have heard being ABROAD. I am speaking of what I see (or suffer here).

It is not that I say it, you can do a search, and see what AMERICANS say of their holidays and problems with gypsies. For example you can look for 'slab', or 'pickpocket', or 'harassment', or muggins', and THEN, YOU tell me which percentage was committed by spanish non-gypsies, and which is caused by Northern African, Gypsies, and Latin Americans.

And, again, I know many L.Am. and some Africans (including people from Marocco, Nigeria and Guinea) who live & work honestly, and I am pretty sure that gypsies like Rosario Flores (singer), the congressman who is (or used to be gypsy, I don't know if he has been elected again), the banker Arturo Romaní, and many others have nothing to do with violence or pickpocketing.

The problem is that, the non-integrated, living with their nomad lifestyle, do not respect the modern society basic rules such as property and law respect.

About the inmigrants, I don't think it is bad that they come, I only wished the inmigration policy would prevent us from having a percentage of their honest working people and a lot of their pickpockets and robbers, who find in this unprepared european-style peaceful country an El Dorado for their bussiness.

Toddy, I am sure you want to be our friend, but you are so good concealing it ...

Ignacio

Hey,, I have just read a post by Sofianito in 'Classifieds' in the thread 'Meeting people in Madrid', where he says: 'trabajo mucho ahora, aqui trabajan mas que en paris, [censored]!!!'



Ignacio

[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

Nicole, as an employer, over 30 years, in 4 different countries, my experience with employees originating from African continent, is quite different from yours.

well, I think it is fabulous that there are two such experienced and educated opinions on the board to give information. Isn't terrible when things are one sided? That's the nice thing about our little group.

Ignacio,
Maybe it's hard for you to understand friendship because you can dish out constantly your perceptual American flaws, but you just can't take Spain's.

And by the way, there are roving bands of SPANIARDS that steal, deal drugs, and even steal.

Sorry, but my French friends really do believe that Spaniards are lazy, uneducated, hot-headed, violent, perverse, and bunch of, and I am quoting, "African drunks."

My point in relaying this perception is not only is it not true but how does it feel Ignacio to be judged in such a negative way.

I wonder how the gypsy feels?

Think about it.