How would you compare the style of the French to that of the Spanish? Do the Spanish have the tres chic style like the french? What generalizations would y'all make about western European clothing, style? (I've read the posts- saying that the Spanish wear tighter clothing (as compared to American's)).
Do lots of people wear stiletos? (I don't know exactly what's average - www.vouge.es is spanish vouge and it might not be a good cross section :))
Is it true that the Spanish are generally slimmer than Americans?
I know i'm making a lot of generalizations here none of it is meant to be offensive or whatever. I'm very interested in the contrasts of the style / fashion type.

Gracias everyone

Hi, I just got back from Madrid, and here are some observations for you:

1) Yes, In Madrid, women's pants are tighter on the bum. Suprisingly so sometimes. The pants may be baggy everywhere else except the bum, the pattern must be special for Spain? Also curious, some women are very thin everywhere and yet still have enourmous backside. The pants are hot!

2)Women's club-wear: techno color graphic knit shirts are popular at the markets. But it seems that in the clubs, the actual natives are very plain, docile colors, black, navy, khaki. Almost like J. Crew ad.

3) There seemed an emphasis to fit-in and be trendy. When my friend and I walked around Sol - someone called us "Fashion-istas". Only because we are East Coast artists that shop second hand, no mateer how hard we try we won't fit in.

4) The same conservative feeling for club dancing, often women in circle with their other friends (sometimes male & female - I saw mostly same sex groups - and lots of couples) My friend and I really stood out for dancing "too wild" - where we were (NO SE DIGAS NADA A NADIE, c/Leon) the accepted fahion was to be with friends in a circle , swivel the hips,drink the drink and laugh.

5) Our fault for hangin in Sol, we like BigBambu in Checua better, but we also like Club Oui in c/Cervantes 7. Also check out Cervantes Pizza, on same street, good food! I still dream about it.

6)The best native fashion I saw was on the Metro.

Suerte,

Sonja

Careful ladies, you're going to get MM all worked up again, picturing Spanish women in tight pants and short skirts... :p
In my humble opinion, it seems that young Spanish men and women dress more to be attractive to each other than Americans (women especially), who seem to dress more for "fashion". It might also be that, in my experience, European men are more tuned into women's fashion than Americans and are more impressed by a well-dressed, "in style" woman. Most American men care nothing about "style" - in or out.
As for French vs Spanish - the clothing and style is similar, I think, but the Spanish women have a different attitude and walk ( and they seem to be generally taller!)that make them look different - and they're more animated. French women past the age of 20 seem to adopt a more reserved and blase (that IS a French word, after all) demeanor.
The group thing is something that most Americans are surprised by but it's really very Spanish. Someone more eloquent and knowledgeable (where are you rgf? Antonio?)might like to try and explain the Spanish mindset regarding male/female dating rituals but I can't handle it without a LOT more caffeine...
Anyway, what it all boils down to is that Spaniards are MUCH more fun to party with than the French - and they always look good!

Young Spanish women, on average, are definitely skinnier than Americans. This is true to the point that the "in" stores -- Zara, Stradivarius, Mango -- do not carry above about an American 8 or 10. In addition the clothes are cut differently (perhaps to make up for the large butts, celeste?) so even if they technically have your size it might not fit right.

Gracias a todos para (or is it por?) la informacion! Es muy interesante.

I wouldn't try to compare Spanish ladies with French ladies in terms of style or style-consciousness: Spain has its own fashions - often much nicer than 'current' French fashions. Let's just say that most Madrileñas (ages early 20's to early 60's) dress very fashionably. That's why it's so much fun for me to sit at a Terraza on Madrid's c/ Serrano and watch the scenery go by.
Anecdote:
Years ago, French 'working girls' all wore red, high-heeled pumps, so the local police would recognize them for what they were (leave them be). American tourists (ladies) would see these attractive, fashionably-dressed young women 'strutting their stuff' along the Champs Elysees or Place Blanche and would immediately think that red, high-heeled pumps were the 'in' thing in French fashions. They would buy red shoes and then wonder why the Italian men 'pinched their butts' the next stop on their 'package' tour. Beware that sort of 'fashion' faux pas.
BTW
Parisienne 'working girls' take very good care of their bodies and keep themselves meticulously clean, often spending considerable time 'working out' at health clubs or gyms. How do I know so much about the habits of Parisienne 'working girls?' Let's just say I read it in a book somewhere

And then there's the differences one finds between Spanish ladies from the north (Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, etc.) and those from Andalucia. They tend to have different 'builds,' so the clothes they wear will be those fashions that conform with their 'body structure.' Madrid, of course, is a 'melting pot' where one sees all the different styles.

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Eddie ]

I did notice a huge difference between the women in Andalucia and up north. The women seemed more voluptuous, in general. there were brighter colors, etc.

I see french style and spanish style as totally different and happen to love both, although both have a tendency to wear more dark colors that I choose to. Spanish cothing is more tailored. French women to me have a very natural elegance - very little make up, hair tucked up almost hapharzardly and a scarf thrown around their shoulders- and they look beautiful.

[ 04-08-2001: Message edited by: Nicole ]

Since the title of this thread is "generalization" I have a few:

1) I would NEVER compare the Spanish with the French. To me the only thing they have in common is the Pyrenees. I find the French rude, arrogant and generally unfriendly towards me (embodiment of the American tourist). This was after I tried desperately to communicate in what little French I know. Hotel personnel treated us with disrespect , and the only time I thought we had truly struck up a friendship with anyone French was with the policemen after we foiled a train heist in Marseilles. I know that many Americans point to WWII and say that France has "forgotten what we did for them". Personally, I don't feel entitled to any special treatment, but I do feel I deserve to be at least treated like a human being, rather than a commodity. IN CONTRAST, wherever I've gone in Spain, and with whomever I've come in contact, I've been treated, to say the least, like a human...and in 99% of the cases like a friend. No matter where I've gone, people have gone out of their way to ensure that I'm enjoying what they or their little slice of Hispania has to offer. Oddly enough, I speak as little German as I do French and was treated similarly in Germany as I have been in Spain. Apparently language ability has little to do with treatment...

2) As far as fashion goes, I never quite understood why Paris is some sort of fashion mecca. (Maybe I'M clueless about fashion???) I think that just like in any other western country you're going to find those who have fashion sense, and those who don't (see old American men in plaid shorts, Hawaiian shirts and straw hats).

What I can't get over is the apparent aversion to showering on a daily basis. This is most apparent when taking the metro home at mediodía in either Madrid or Paris. I've noticed that the "older" crowd seems to struggle more than the youth. Perhaps it comes from being a generation that has known want and therefore has had to conserve...(I remember my landlady asking me and my fellow students why we were showering "again" after playing basketball, since we'd already showered that morning!) It's no secret that today's French and Spanish youth have it comparatively good.

I must say though, nothing makes me change my mind over whether a particular man or woman is handsome and/or beautiful faster than a good whiff of B.O. poorly masked by a couple of stokes of "Fa" under the arm. (Before anyone goes nuts...I'm well aware that we Americans can be a stinky lot as well...we just spend less time on public transport, so it isn't as noticeable I guess...)

Well, I'm not sure how I started with attitudes and ended with aromas...sorry.
I think the main thing to remember when looking at opinions like mine is to take them with a grain of salt, all the while realizing that generalizations by nature are dangerous, no matter how truthful they may be. It's best to experience another culture personally and then draw your OWN conclusions.

CaliBasco, up until 1999 I would have said exactly the same thing about the French. Amazingly, the people I ran into were tolerant and patient with my fractured French and (even more amazing) would speak English if it became apparent that I was way out of my linguistic range. I had store people smile at me and ask if I wanted gift wrapping for gifts. I came back with a complete change of attitude! I always figured DeGaulle was to blame for the anti-American sentiment...who knows? Anyway, I no longer grumble about having to visit France!

Well, I can't speak for the French, but what I noticed especially in Madrid was the lack of colors on clothing. I know that many people have posted about that on here, but it is pretty amazing to see for yourself. When I was on the Metro looking around the car waiting for my stop I could really check people out. Needless to say I was the only one wearing a light blue shirt. Everyone else was wearing blacks, browns, dark blues, and greys. No doubt they could tell that I was a foreigner. Although, in a world full of drab colors, how could a person know if he/she was color blind or not?

I have heard a lot of similar comments about the French. I must have had an extraordinary experience, because people I met were so nice - the times when I went and didn't know how to speak French, and later when I did. Even on the busy streets of Paris, when I lived there, I always managed to get friendly (though not smiley) help from people. Occasionally, people dealing with the public were crotchety, but there always seemed to be a a nice french person around me ready to take my arm and point me in the right direction, even standing up for me with a nasty ticket agent once. The worst experiences I had traveling, were actually in Germany, although I just chalk that up to bad luck...

I do agree about the b.o. I never quite got used to it. In Salamanca, we would have to air out the classrooms after Spanish students had been in there, because the odor was really bad. Just not as much water there to wash and bath as often as we do. more expensive, etc.

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: Nicole ]

The only thing I will generalize about Spaniards is the b.o. thing...I totally agree with you on that one...I once paid over 10 U.S. dollars for a deoderant with anti-perspirant (only 3 years ago)...And the one request from my American friends still living in Madrid is Arid Extra Dry!!!
So remember to pack your anti-perspirant when travelling, especially in summer.

In some European countries (Spain & Portugal, for example) the cost of dry cleaning can be very high. People tend to wear their suits, etc. for a longer period of time before sending them to the cleaners. That could at least partially explain the preference for dark colors and that 'people smell.' I got used to it travelling in 3rd Class Rail compartments (8-people) over the years. But one Sunday, in Lisbon, I went to early Mass and the only other people in the Church were some older Portuguese women, all wearing black. The body odor was overwhelming - I thought I was going to be sick.
Permanent press and wash and wear don't seem to have ever 'caught on' there (although Levi's are very popular). Maybe it's because such imports cost so much more there.

I'm the first to admit that I am *not* a fashion-conscious person. I dress for comfort, and might as well have "American" stamped on my forehead every time I travel. Fashion is just one of those things that does not appeal to me, and an entire country of brown/black/navy struck me as pretty dull when I studied in Sevilla.

I will say that the b.o. thing bothered me a bit. Getting downwind of people at the wrong time of day could be torture!

I found a nice compromise with the Spanish guy I was dating at the time. He agreed to shower and change into clean clothes before coming to see me, and I agreed to wear tighter, more fashionable clothes and (gasp!) makeup. It worked out pretty well.

As for the French, I actually found them to be pleasant and helpful. My French is pretty bad, but the fact that I made the attempt seemed to help. Like a previous poster mentioned, they weren't "smiley", but still helpful. The only negative encounter I had was an irritated, impatient postal worker, but how many *happy* postal workers do you see anywhere?

I'm sorry for bringing up the B.O. idea...even though it sounds (or smells) like we've all had an "encounter" with it. It is the weirdest thing, since I didn't have the same problem in any Scandinavian or Baltic country...just in Spain and France, and to an extent Italy. Spain MUST [and I use that word lightly ] be great...or a stinky old lady on the bus might be enough to send us packing!

Anyway...I wanted to say to lamaestra, the last time I spent any time of note in France was 1995, so perhaps they've changed in 4-6 years. I hope so! Let me give you an exact quote, given to us by a hotel manager TWICE five weeks apart: "I'm sorry, but a reservation does not guarantee you a room." I'm not sure what it did guarantee me, other than a warm, fuzzy feeling until I got to the hotel...but that was just indicative of my two weeks in France. Nevertheless, it is after all a generalization...

Anyway...have a great day all! And spread on the anti-b.o.!

Is the black thing especially true of the cities in Spain? I know I travel to NYC alot for my job and people say the same thing about there.Though NYC isn't exactly a city full of typical Americans. As we travel out to smaller towns in Spain will we see perhaps more colour and less high fashion?

I certainly agree that young Spanish men wear an awful lot of black and brown jumpers with black jeans and it seems that no Spanish girl can step out of the house unless she's wearing tight (lycra?) black trousers. One thing I have noticed that's changed since I started going to Spain regularly about 9 years ago however is girls' shoes. It used to amaze me that every girl wore white trainers almost without exception - there seems to be a lot more variety now though. I guess the similarity in clothes is explained by the relatively small number of shops (Mango, Benetton and Zara for the girls and Pull & Bear, Springfield and Massimo Dutti for the boys). The Spanish also sensibly generally wouldn't dream of spending the unbelievable amounts people shell out for designer clothes over here (in the UK), apart from Lacoste polo shirts which you do see a lot of.

Always remember there's a difference between deodorants and anti-perspirants. The majority of what you find in Spanish stores is deodorants. Anti-perspirants haven't caught on as much, and they offer better protection than deodorants do, especially when it's hot outside.

The fact is, deodorants wear out faster than anti-perspirants, so that "fresh feeling" doesn't necessarily last all day. What you're smelling in most cases, on the metro, is a person whose deodorant gave up before their day ended.

As for the usage of hot water. Gas can be expensive in Spain. Exchanging tanks can be a chore, and climbing several sets of stairs with that tank slung across your shoulders can reduce a lot of people to jello before they reach their flat. Keep this in mind as to why they may skip a shower once in a while. Especially if they run out of bottled gas somewhere along the line, trying to heat water. Not everyone has piped in natural gas as an option.

Wolf

When I was in Spain, one thing that I noticed was most of the Spanish women whether young, adult, old or even senior citizens, they were all well-dressed. They may not have the variety of colors we see in the U.S.A, they looked so presentable. As my daughter would say, Spanish women are well-maintained physically. The reason, most women wear tight pants is that they have the figure for it. My daughter during her 6-months stay, she also wore tight pants because she has the figure. Luckily, my body figure allowed me to buy clothes from Mango, Zara and Amichi. The style of the clothes really fits your body. One must have a small waist and Jennifer Lopez's back. When my daughter returned from Spain, her schoolmates had to adjust seeing her in tight pants. While I was in Madrid, I believe I only saw 1 Spanish woman who was on the plump side but not obese. When I returned from Spain and back to work, I realized I was back in the good U.S.A, suddenly, I was surrounded by men/women who were on the heavy side.

I agree with Nicole that women from Cordoba are on the plump side compared to Seville and Madrid.

With regards to "B.O.", the places I went with my daughter somehow, we did not encounter the "B.O.". We took the bus traveling along Andalucia and the "B.O." was not there. I met several of her Spanish friends, they all did not have "B.O." I have not been in the northern side of Spain,is "B.O." a general thing there? I am just wondering because during my Andalucia trip, this so called "B.O." was not a common thing. Honestly, when I take the Metro train from work to home, everyday, I encounter someone with "B.O."

[ 04-11-2001: Message edited by: mclarke ]

The reason Paris is supposed to be such a fashion mecca goes back to the days of haute couture, little boutiques that would outfit a woman head to toe, and the woman's job was to look beautiful. This was before fashion became mass marketed. But now, Paris isn't seen as THE HQ for fashion. Today Milan, London, and New York are important. Designers have created bridge labels (DKNY, Anne Klein II, ect.) and licence other companies to make accesories and stuff to help their companies meet the bottom line; exclusivity isn't as prevelant. Paris and haute couture and all that aren't as important as they used to be.

The thing about the dark clothing- i have another suggestion about why that is - I've read somewhere that the French or Spanish have a few really nice things and wear them again and again and change the look with accessories. Wearing generally dark clothing assures everything matches, and as mentioned before, no visible stains. This way, they always look good; quality not quantity.

Hmmm. An afterthought about the BO: So if we don't smell, will that seperate us as foreigners? (Notwithstanding our other obvious signs such as body language, posture, style of dress, accent, attitude,ectera.) Just a joke

Venire,

Having been on the DC metro, I assure you that B.O. would be a welcome refreshment from the humid, acrid sewer smell that seems to permeate the tunnels.

Regarding the "publicity" of smell: As mentioned, I think we (meaning we that don't have or use public transport) don't notice it as much as we are not in such close proximity to our neighbors. I must admit to having a hypersensitive olfatory, however. While driving in traffic with the window down, I can smell the Lucky Strike dangling from your lips two cars ahead. I'm certain that Spain doesn't have a monopoly on people with "that not so fresh scent."

Hello Calibasco,

As a daily rider of the DC Metro I certainly can agree about the smell of the trains and tunnels. I prefer Madrid's to DC's anyday.

Take care, Paco

Cali,

You're absolutely right on the smell. I rode from the Sacramento, CA airport to Citrus Heights, actually holding my head outside the window like a dog to avoid the "pungent aroma" of my driver. It was over 100 degrees, and the air conditioning on his cab had gone out. I think it must have gone out a couple of weeks earlier, and he'd failed to bathe since then.

I gave him a tip of $1.98... told him he should use it to buy Right Guard. The oaf looked at me as if puzzled

Now... before I get into a cab... I stick my head inside and make sure the driver doesn't have any three day old sushi stuck under the seat for "later."

Wolf

It is absolutely not a Spain thing. After working with refugees, I could tell what part of the world the clients were from, before entering the room (most of them came from places without inexpensive access to water - if at all). The europe smell is an "old sweat marinating in a wool sweater." I have to admit, I found it almost less bothersome than in Chile. Chileans are fanatically clean, and take it a little further by pouring on vast quantities of cologne and perfume. Getting on the metro in the morning I felt dizzy from all the smells and could taste them in my throat for hours after getting off.

Calibasco is correct - I notice no shortage of stinky people in the US at all. And if one is in Spain in the summer, sorry, but everyone stinks when it is 35-40 degrees outside.

Wolf-All I could visualize on your post was Walter Matthau pulling the stinking fish out of the back of his Bronco in "Grumpy Old Men"...good one.

And Nicole, I'm with you...as far as I can recall, human scent doesn't cause cancer, but some of those Chanel additives probably do!

Does anyone want to start into a different generalization? How about the Spanish-style "parking by braille" method? I'm always amused at the nonchalance with which cars are bumped, sometimes while their occupants look on, while others try to park in tight quarters in the urban areas of Spain. I'm all for it, as long as you don't jack up my car by ramming it! It's amazing to me, since NOBODY freaks out over it...it's just part of city life!

"How about the Spanish-style "parking by braille" method?"

Ha! You just made my day!

I remember when I first saw that during my study abroad 5 years ago. The parking lots near the clubs at night were particularly fascinating. Everyone left their cars in neutral and the attendent put blocks under the tires. When one car needed to get out, they'd roll whichever cars were blocking it in out of the way and then put them back.

I remember thinking that it was a pretty ingenious method for fitting a lot of cars in a tiny parking lot. Somehow, I don't think it'll ever catch on here, though. Can you imagine all the alarms that would go off? Ugh!

I love that phrase - "parking by Braille!" It makes sense to me, too! I never could understand why certain car makers stopped putting rubber - or whatever it was - on bumpers, and left painted metal instead. And Mel-knee's description of the blocks also makes loads of sense. How about parking on corners and sidewalks? I remember driving around D.C. once with my father, during the years I lived in Madrid, and he was looking for a parking space. Every corner could fit at least six cars, but he couldn't park there. It was driving me crazy! All that parking space along huge, wide roads gone to waste! (All right, I understand cars on sidewalks could bother the pedestrians, but if it's a little car on a big deserted sidewalk...) And (now that I'm the topic of driving), what about some healthy arm waving at fellow drivers? I've decided restraining my arms when I drive in the States out of fear for my life is causing me unnecessary stress. In Spain if someone cuts you off (you know, the old "My bumper is ahead of your bumper so MOVE!" attitude), you wave your arm(s), call him/her a choice word, and have a nice day. (I'd better stop now. I'm getting homesick again.)

[ 04-17-2001: Message edited by: Diana ]

The sidewalk parking reminds me of the very, very, hot day in Cordoba when I first saw the Spanish solution to not enough underground parking: six cars clustered together under a tree that was trying to grow on the terrace between the sidewalk and road and looking for all the world like bulls standing in the shade of a cork tree. Everyone just walked around them as if it were the most natural thing in the world! Try THAT in a U.S. city.

kbl: That is a GREAT mental picture! One thing that has always puzzled me is that you can TRIPLE park pretty much wherever, and instead of calling the poli, the boxed-in car will stand and honk the horn until you realize it's YOU that needs to move. Knowing that you're the offending party is a skill, as you're usually ten floors up in a piso visiting someone.

I recently saw this move all over Madrid!

When you see someone standing outside their car laying on the horn sit back and watch the fun as several heads poke out of piso buildings and when the offending driver finally appears he gets echar'ed la bronca!

Leche

I feel really sad about these things of Spain, there are a lot of people without any respect for others, there is a total abuse from some drivers against pedestrians, they leave the car anywhere, they don't stop on pedestrian ways, even people who parks on second line and doesn't care when the driver of the other car, that can't leave because of his car on second line .....
I think we need a little more civilization in this aspect, at least in Madrid..

Madrid certainly has no monopoly on rude drivers (read: LA). It's only sad when you're the guy waiting to get out. Other than that, it's hilarious!

I remember a Seat 1500 almost running over my toes as I stepped into a "crosswalk" in Segovia. I gave his rear quarter-panel a thump with my fist, and he stopped to "have it out with me". When he got out of the car he noticed how much larger than he I was and thought better of his decision to mix it up with me. This, of course, leads to another generalization: In the U.S. people are more physically aggressive and tend to back things up, even if they're the small dog in the fight. In Spain I've noticed that by showing some aggression, you can back most everyone off (being about 4" taller than most men in Spain doesn't hurt either, I suppose.)

Here's another fun one: How many of you have enjoyed the "fruits" of some dog's labors while out walking the streets of Madrid? I've noticed that compared to all the walking I do in my own hometown, the incidence of "land mines" or "meadow muffins" is higher in Madrid. Is cleaning up after your pet less of an issue in Madrid than it is where I'm at?

Well, I think that cleaning your pet gifts is growing a little bit, now maybe a 0,1% of the people do it. It's more normal although not so good to take your pet to a park, so it don't leave the gift on the street

Geez! Another myth destroyed! I thought the Mercedez-Benz emblems on the derrieres of Spanish ladies was a Levis competitor, not the results of being hit by a passing motorist

Watching a Madrid policeman direct traffic has always reminded me of someone trying to herd cats.... but that's another story



Wolf

This post is made in good fun:

I've noticed that the departamento de obras públicas in Spain (in general...not just Madrid) has some serious competition when it comes to how many loafers there are in the gruop of construction workers. I have a photograph of FOUR "workers" watching ONE ACTUAL WORKER digging a ditch in Valladolid.

I thought that was pretty funny until I moved to Southern California in '94. Out here they actually have a word for paying five union guys to do the work of one: CALTRANS. In the Spanglish vein, the local Hispanic population no longer uses the term "perezoso", but rather "caltransiente".