I came away from Madrid with mostly a bad feeling because of several things, but the one thing that really stuck out was the way in which four seperate female employees at four seperate stores told me that I was too big to try on some or all of their clothes.

Has this happened to anyone else? I mean, I'm not size 6, but it's not exactly as if I'm trying on that size anyway. I'm trying on a size L or something that stretches greatly (I'm size 12--which is L, just so you know) and SEVERAL women stop me and let me know that I shouldn't try these SIZE L clothes on because I will rip them.

What kind of crap is that?

I tell this to a friend of mine in Madrid and they can't believe it, but then another adds that this kind of stuff happened to her friend in Italy. The friend just walked outside and starting crying.

I didn't cry. I just looked at them like, YOU B..... and tried them on anyway and actually bought many of the things that fit just fine.

Now I know that someone is going to say that there is a serious concern on the part of these employees that clothes will be ripped and they will be blamed, but then, why stop there? Why not stop people who smell badly? Or those who have lipstick on yet insist on trying on white or pale things and leaving lipstick marks?

I know this sounds absurd, but how humiliating and just plain sad that they felt the need to do this. And what a horrible image to come away from a country with.

Hi there-

I can relate to your frustration. Although I am now a size 8 and can normally find clothes there, I still at times feel like a big girl when trying things on in Spain! When I studied there I was somewhere around a size 12 or 14, no skinny mini but not obese either, and I basically gave up trying to find anything decent to purchase, since nothing ever fit me!! (I was never told not to try anything on, but when I did, most of the time they didn't fit!)

I wouldn't take how they talked to you personally, though. This is one of the BIG cultural differences between Spain/Europe and the US. I'm not sure how familiar you are, if this was your 1st or 101st trip there, but if you didn't notice, the Spanish don't tend to sugar coat things. They don't mean or even think they're being rude, and aren't considered rude there, they're just stating a fact as they see it. "Is your sister fat too?" (implying that YOU are!), "Oh he's so ugly!". We're more used to the sugar coated "She's got a pretty face." or "He's unique looking." I think it's just one more difference in our cultures and viewpoints.

GG (Who is still getting over the pair of Spanish shoes that actually fit her but she didn't buy in 1988!)

That SUCKS!! Yeah. Europeans aren't as worried about hurting your feelings. Thank god for "political correctness" and protecting my vulnerable ego. I once had a saleswoman in Italy flat out ask me if I was really sure that I could afford the shoes I wanted to buy, while she looked me up and down like I was a stinking carcass. I was wearing typical backpacker gear, but found the comment quite stinging - felt like I do in those weird dreams where you are standing naked in front of your junior high class...

One of my French friends, Anne, and I were talking about that one day. She told me after years of living in the States, she had grown "tender"/sensitive. She went into a store in France to buy her mother (a typically skinny French woman) a necklace. As she was trying it on, the saleswoman told her that with Anne's "neck like a bull" the necklace really totally unsuitable. lovely. She had a few more stories like that.

Anyway, I don't think I ever dared to try on pants in Spain - thank you Gap - but whenever the saleswomen would get snooty with me at Zara's I would feel just fine looking at them with the 3-shades-darker-than-their-neck make up and freaky exagerated Cleopatra eyeliner and prance my natural (and voluptuous) *ss around the store anyway.

I'm very sorry about that.
I guess that maybe they would have had some bad experiences in that way, as here have been on fashion the cloths too "small" between teenagers. Some girls who weren't too tiny couldn't find some kind of clothes. Even the government negotiated with cloths makers to change the sizes trying to minimize the anorexia problems...
I think this rude way to say things could be more common in big stores for teenagers like Zara, Mango...although thre is also kind people in those places...

I agree with Miguelito. These are pretty rude people described but I feel you can't judge the retail world by them. I accompanied several teens shopping recently in Spain and though they were frustrated by the sizing(2 of them are quite tall and voluptuous) the sales people were generally patient, maybe not overly optomistic they would find anything, but they were not rude.I wear an 8 or 10 and when a male sales person pulled out an XL I was a little insulted..but it fit! American teen style clothes are also pretty impossible for alot of girls!

It's unfortunate that these things happen, but it's one of the reasons I don't try to find clothes for myself in Spain. I'm a big guy, with big feet, and rest assured, I haven't seen anything except a tent that would fit me... In fact, I had the unpleasant experience of being told that I couldn't ride horses at a ranch we visited. I never intended to, but told the guy that I brought a skateboard along, and we could strap it under the horse's belly so it wouldn't drag on the ground. He nearly passed out... I'm not certain if he thought I was serious or wanted to avoid laughing.

The same applies to my wife. If she buys anything, it's XXL over there, and that may be a bit more squeeze than she likes.

Wolf (Who has looked through the Spanish Yellow pages for Omar the Tent Maker, to buy clothes.)

I am sorry to read all your comments about the bad shopping experiences you have had in Spain. I have not had any "run-ins" with assistants so far and have found them to be very curteous. Wolf, your comment about the horse really made me chuckle, I can picture the scenario in my mind, would make a great cartoon!

Whoa sheba that is stunning. I am about your size and although no salespeople ever told me I could not try on the clothes, I had a similar difficult time getting things that fit. My favorite store was ProMod, I have lots of tops from there, and a highlight from this trip was when I actually could buy a skirt (reflection of the weight loss from a year away from eating way too much Spanish food, not to mention drinking!). The rudeness I did experience was in Zara when I was told very not-nicely, on several occasions, to not unfold the clothes because it made a mess. Well, how I was supposed to determine the size without unfolding them is a mystery. I totally sympathize with you, I would have started crying.

I have encountered the exact same situations there as well, I know better now to even attempt to try anything on, much less look, that I now only stick to buying shoes in Spain, at least I know I will find some!!!
I have been learning the hard way about the sugar coating cultural difference thing...My mother-in-law has sent me to tears a few times with her comments, but as time passes, she has learned to lessen the blows (I mean comments) and I have learned to take it in stride...

My shopping experiences in Spain have not been wonderful, but not for any of the reasons mentioned! My first time in Spain I was too broke to buy clothes and made one purchase...my first bikini. It was a lovely thing, scandalous in Franco times (matronly today) with a bra that could have doubled as a matching pair of ice cream dishes. My next visit I was pregnant and not really in the mood for shopping. More recently I have taken my toned size 6 body over there only to have sales clerks roll their eyes as I show interest in putting those clingy little tops on my 55 year old frame . The size may be right, but believe me, those spray-on numbers just don't look the same on chassis with my kind of mileage! They keep pointing at racks of polyester blouses with buttons up to the neck and tasteful below-the-knee skirts. And those of you who have the unmitigated GALL to tell me about cute strappy sandals...I wear an 8EE and the only thing clerks found that they thought MIGHT fit were some hot pink boxes the shoes came in. They DID offer to fit them with velcro, but I didn't think my orthodics would work with the cut of the box.

I do have a wonderful collection of T-shirts, though

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: la maestra ]

i had to laugh about the horse and omar the tentmaker.

thanks to everyone for your comments. i really appreciated hearing that i was not the only one who has experienced bad shopping in madrid.

and i want to add that i don't buy the sugar-coating thing. there's being honest, and then there's being plain rude and most people know the difference no matter what culture.

all of the things i tried on actually did fit, as like most women, i do kinda know my body proportions by sight. they may have been a little too tight or rubbed where they shouldn't have or had some other thing going on that i didn't like, but they did fit. why would i waste my time with way too small clothes? i mean, most women try on things that they know are going to fit, but don't know how they are going to lay or move when on.

to be told by a total stranger that is just seeing me for the first time that i'm too big...well...that is just plain rude.

honest would have been:

those shirts (skirts, dresses, etc.) are cut so (way too, very, etc.)small.

rude is:

you are too big for those shirts etc.

the sad thing is that in many of the cases, and like a lot of women out there who have gone through bad shopping experiences, i bought the items out of anger.

i love them and will wear them to death now that i've spent so much on them, but i may not have bought them if i hadn't been so pissed off by the treatment, which is stupid of me i know because i not only lose my temper, but also my money to a total stranger. but dang they pissed me off.

Sheba and others -

Thanks for the insight! Both my husband and I will be better prepared for the "cultural difference" you raised in this thread. (We've "plumped up" considerably since getting married and quitting smoking, and are a little sensitive on the subject of our newly lost sveltness.)

Pookita (+20 lbs. - mas o menos - but happy )

It's good to know everyone has their experiences in Spain. Besides a lot of staring I personally haven't had a lot of trouble. But, I do want to share one experience my fiance had.

During our times there, we had shopped many times for shoes in Madrid. One time, we went to a store near the Puerta del Sol. My fiance has what some may call large feet for a woman (size 10) Although this is somewhat unheard of in Spain(I think it's a 42) she found many pair to fit her. In this store, she asked the gentleman to help her. He acted amazed that there was someone with feet like hers. I spotted a pair on the shelf that was her size and when I went to get them, he shouted "No!" We tried to explain that we found her size and he kept saying" No!" Then he finally said in English "No shoes for you!" So, we left, laughing all the way out the door.

Just thought I had to share my fondest shopping experience.

Love the skateboard and horse story!!!! and would ahve loved even more to have seen the expression on the man's face as he tried to determine if you were serious!

I have to agree with most everything on this post. I also went to Zara, but only bought perfume and scarves. The place was a mad house and nobody acted like they wanted to help me, so, I just bought what I wanted and got out of there. I guess in the states I am what you would call a size large petite. I'm only about 5'4, but not a toothpick. I didn't buy any clothes in Spain, as I thought they were expensive and nothing that fabulous that I wanted to carry all the way home. To me, most everything was geared for the teens and twenty year old, much like here. In every shop I went into, including a home furnishings store called "Indigo", I didn't have one salesperson ask to assist me.I just thought it was the way they were. I minded my own business, picked up what I wanted and bought what I wanted. I did make one mistake at the produce market. I touched a fruit I had never seen before and the man came right over. I forgot you weren't suppose to touch the fruit, and my husband, was like," what was wrong with that guy?" I had to explain that it was my fault. My husband who fits comfortably in a XXl, had a salesperson at Cortes de Ingles help him for about an hour trying on leather and suede jackets, of course they were all very expensive, and the salesperson had a cousin in Chicago, so maybe he took a liking to us. Needless to say, even though the store had up to XXXl, none of them fit my husband, so he didn't buy anything. I also had good service there when I was picking out a purse. Which I haven't stopped carrying since I came back from there in April. My only regret wasn't buying more shoes, purses and olives. Let me tell you, cans of olives that are easy to pack and inexpensive made the best gifts. Everyone I gave them too has asked if I had more. :p

Sheba,
I can totally relate although, my rude situation happened in the states. I was waiting on tables a few months after I had my daughter (implying heavier than usual) and my former Madrilena Spanish teacher came in to have tapas. I saw her and greated her pleasantly but her response to me was..."what happended to you? You're really fat! You used to be so skinny" I really couldn't believe her rudeness and politely informed her that I had recently just had a baby and was therefore still a little overweight. When she kept up with the comments I had had it and said...maybe I'm fat right now but I can lose the weight but I highly doubt if you will be able to lose your rude personality.

My suegra madrilena is a little bit better than this but she can still really dish it out too. She is the first one to tell me if I've put on weight or if my skin is broken out. One things to consider though, is that if Spanish women are that critical of strangers, then they must be 1000 times more critical of their own bodies. Spanish women are always obsessing about their weight and appearance. At least we don't have to deal with that to the same level in the states.

I do agree that "some spanish" people just are too forward when it comes to commenting or expressing themselves. I am from spanish background (born in Havana, Cuba but both of my parents from Spain) and on a recent trip to Spain I visited with one of my cousins, in Madrid (she lives there). Well, at the time of our "social encounter" (my mother had passed on a couple of months before)she
did not say, sorry about your mom, etc.. (pretty normal thing to say), she went on to say however that the last time she spoke with my mom, about five years ago, my mom had told her that upon her death to contact me and tell me that "she could have all her jewlery"...and was telling me this.. while I was "buying her and her husband dinner" at a very expensive restaurant, I might add.
I could not believe that anyone in any part on this planet would make a comment like that. I proceeded to finish our diner date
(had indigestion all night, by the way)
and promised NEVER to speak or visit this individual EVER again!
This is in NO WAY the "general" experience that we had while there. Overall people were great and very helpful. The rest of our family there were just supper. It was just a shame that in some instances the likes of "some people" can spoil and turn a wonderful experience into a unpleasant and hurtful situation.
We still love Spain and all our family and friends but this lady saw the last of my family and I.

Jaime, I was surprised to read that Spanish women obsess over their weight. I really didn't know that! It seems...from non-Spanish eyes...that men and women in Spain pretty much eat what they want when they want it. I assumed they stayed slim because of all the walking and because they don't seem to eat the truckloads of chips and other munchies that we do. I guess I also figured they had magic genes that enabled a person to eat and not gain weight!

I also wondered if what we call rudeness is just cultural. When I was young (and dinosaurs ruled the earth), it was not uncommon to have someone carry a nickname like Fats or Sticks based on some physical characteristic. This is still very true in Mexico and among Native American populations. I'd be taking attendance the first day of school and call "Antonio" only to have Antonio say "That's me, but I go by Gordo". The worst was a girl with hard core acne who was called Pil-Pil. Kids told me that's what they call those little round, white sprinkles on candy! Anyway, I never know for sure if I am dealing with rudeness or just having a choque de cultura.

Sure, som expressions are cultural that just wouldn't fly here, like....gordita-for an avergae sized-fat girl, negrita darker skin-black, culona-having a nice plump *ss. When I first started hearing these things I told me family they were being rude. I didn't realize that they were expressions of carino and nothing is meant by them. Now I wear my nickname "culona" with pride because to the Spanish and Lat Ams it can be a very good thing..ie J-LO. Anyways, this stuff aside, blatantly telling someone they are fat or too big to try on certain clothes would not be considered normal or polite behavior even from a Spaniard to another Spaniard.

Hi SHeba,
Thanks for sharing your experience with us - aside from the staring part I did not encounter anyone making offensive remarks. I am going to be in Madrid for two months so reading about everyone experience is certainly a eye opening.

How about this one: The main Corté Inglés at Puerta del Sol in Madrid I went to use the restroom. There was a long line for the ladies' room so it was not surprising to see several women 'doing their thing' when I entered the mens' room. What bothered me about that whole incident was that it seemed to me that they thought I should apologize for intruding on them in the restroom marked 'Caballeros.' Not in this lifetime!

Eddie,

I don't blame the women for taking over the mens room though. For some reason, almost every country in the world hasn't recognized the fact that they need more facilities for women. In the U.S., as you know, new construction, even in sports stadiums, is including these facilities.

I think they figured to you should have stepped to the end of the line and waited with them, until it was your turn. I'm not certain though... just a guess.

I can remember an incident at a Chicago Bulls/Milwaukee Bucks game several years ago, before the new stadium was built in Chicago. There were plenty of mens rooms but there was a serious shortage of womens facilities. A female security guard commandeered one of the mens rooms for women, and kept the men out. You should have heard the bellyaching... it was unreal, but she stood her ground, and even though I'm a man, I thought she did what was necessary.

I have a feeling that if there was a vote taken for the "Woman of the Year," in the old stadium, that lady would have won hands down. She would have deserved it.

Wolf (Who still holds doors for women, and people older than him, if there are any still alive... )

Sheba, I remember when you first started posting here in preparation for your trip to Spain. Besides the rude incident in the store, did you have a good trip?

Hi, all--
This is a fascinating thread. I have had a variety of shopping experiences in Spain, some great and some bad. The best ones were in the clearance department of El Corte Ingles, where an incredibly kind woman helped me choose a coat. She sized me up right off (but without commenting), plucked the coat off a rack, and it fit beautifully. She commented nicely about how it looked and wrapped it up for me. Lovely!

Another good one was in the same department, looking at jackets and trenchcoats for my husband. The salesman was an older man, very dapper himself, and he and I had a delightful chat about how coats are cut in Spain. We concluded that a standard cut is too short for my husband's arms (he DOES have long arms!), and the man helped me to decode the numbers on the tags to try to find the right length (they aren't like sizes here, where you just look for a 35 inch arm). Even though he was commenting on a "flaw" of Doug's (yes, I married a gorilla man ), he did it so gently and kindly and made it seem that the fault was actually with the silly clothes, which just weren't long enough. I think that sheba's point about how much nicer it would be if salespeople remarked about the clothes, rather than about the bodies we are putting into them, is a great one.

We had another good experience in a men's chain, where another charming gentleman helped us to find pants that were long enough for Doug. He kindly suggested pleats when the flat-front ones looked horrid, and did so in a way that didn't make Doug feel like he should drop 10 pounds then and there.

I have had some unpleasant experiences shopping in both chains and boutique stores, with similar comments about not touching/unfolding clothes (then how the heck can you even tell if it MIGHT fit?) and about sizes. I am pretty small, but even I was aware of the "sizing up" glances of the saleswomen (the people who did this were always women). Some steered me away from certain things, and I found that the cuts of some styles were VICIOUS to problem areas like hips and thighs. I tended to feel that the saleswomen were very proprietary about the clothes under their control--like THEY got to decide who could buy what and when. Having folded countless stacks of t-shirts at the Gap, I can understand the secret irritation a salesperson might feel when someone upends a pile of clothes rather than asking for help, but still...it should be a SECRET irritation! I really thought some of the saleswomen were trying to decide whether I was good enough/the right size to be permitted to wear their precious clothes. And salespeople (like good friends) should know that discussing size issues should be done quietly, discreetly, and in terms that make it clear where the fault lies--with the idiot designers who think the whole world is a size 6! Yes, a salesperson should suggest a roomier size when necessary, but it's SO easy to say, "that designer's stuff is cut really small" or "everyone is having to go up a size in this style of pants." Why add to the media- and industry-fed body image issues that women in nearly the whole world have?

And just to conclude, we also shopped for children's clothes. Even when my husband and I loaded up our arms at Zara, nobody offered to help, nobody offered advice. Once I asked a saleswoman about a size, and she looked MOST put out by the question.

And in the children's department at El Corte Ingles, I watched a big argument between two saleswomen who were fighting over me (and my commission). I was buying a dress from the infant department and another from the children's department, and the women who helped me in each place were downright nasty to one another. The first one who had helped, and who had given me her name, ended up winning--but it left me with such a bad taste in my mouth. I understand that working on commission means that you have to protect "your" customers, but making that so blatant is really off-putting. When we went over to the children's shoe department to find matching shoes, one of the women lurked and sulked behind us.

Anyway, I found shopping to be alternately pleasant and icky, and have nothing but sympathy for those of you who have experienced the darker side of it. I also found that the way I was dressed affected the service I got (or didn't get), but I experience that here in the US at trendy or boutique stores too. Here, though, I will assert myself about rude or bad service, and in Spain (or anywhere else), I feel powerless. What WOULD be the right response to bad or rude service in Spain?

Tara

PS--and for a story of a shopping experience that left the shopper feeling like a goddess, regardless of size or shape, check out "power pouf," an article in this month's "real simple" magazine. The author went, on a lark, to a huge bridal warehouse and watched the saleswomen make EVERY SINGLE WOMAN (including her) feel like a perfect and beautiful princess, regardless of size, shape, or budget!

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: taravb ]

Jaime--thanks for asking. overall, i had a fine trip. i didn't like madrid, simply because of the people. but in talking to other foreigners, i found that this was normal. it just reminded me to much of where i live. it could be a great place, it is a great place, but the people were off-putting.

strangely enough--i had the best time in paris. i went with very little expectations and i had the best experience of my life there. i only went for four days, but i'm now planning on how i'm going to be able to live there someday.

i think a lot of it had to do too with food and shelter. those are really most people's primary worries, and if those don't go right from the start, then it taints the rest of the trip. i didn't like the food in spain and where i lived was so noisy and heartbreaking that i had nightmares the entire time i was there.

in constrast, paris was quiet, very verdent, and the food was amazing. it's too bad, because i planned forever for the trip to spain and had all these really great ideals of what it would be from reading people's posts and from doing my own research, and then to get there and be treated so...well, i don't want to go back.

i did, however, really like Granada and Cordoba. I loved the Alhambra gardens (I'm a sucker for gardens, not impressed by architecture, but love gardens) and the gypsy quarters. I loved the cobblestone streets and the flamenco show we saw there in which i was one of the "beautiful girls" asked to dance (so exciting). and i loved sitting under the alhambra at night when it was all lit up and a breeze was coming off the channel surrounding the alhambra. the walk back to main street was amazing too. who knew that there were so many gay people in granada? strangely enough, i was treated with a lot more respect there then in madrid.

still, i did not get a chance to visit many of the other places that my comrades went to like Toledo, St. Sebastian, Ibiza, and Mallorca, Portugal, and Barcelona simply because i did not have the money. They all seemed to like the places with lots of water more than madrid.

i do however think that madrid is a great place to be introduced to europe because it is so cheap and the metro system is excellent and the museums are first-rate and the architecture is really representative of all of europe. but i wouldn't want to keep going back, if only to preserve my sense of respect for other people.

I'm so sorry to hear that Sheba but I do hope you will give it another shot some time in the future. Traveling is strange in that whether it goes well or not depends on so many variables and it just takes one to screw up a trip. I've only been to Spain once but have been to Central America several times and always had wonderful trips and dream of going back. However, some girlfriends I've gone with would never go back because they were ripped off, bad lodging etc.... A lot of that is just being at the right/wrong place and time. I only had the opportunity to visit just a few cities in Spain during my trip but in Madrid I found the people to be less friendly and helpful than in the smaller towns and cities. It makes sense if you compare people' attitudes in New York City to small town usa right? My brother adored living in Salamanca and my girlfriends loved many of the small towns in the south. Maybe if you could concentrate your travel to the smaller cities you would end up having a better time.

My elderly grandparents just got back last month from Paris and were mugged in the train station their first day there. They had to waste two days of their precious trip trying to get things in order at the embassy. If they hadn't been to Paris before and enjoyed themselves in the past, they probably would not have wanted to go back and had a bad impression of Paris. My point is....I hope you will give Spain another chance and I bet you would end up having a more enjoyable time the second time around.

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Jaime ]

jaime--thanks for the encouragement, but after spending close to 10,000 there, (tuition/plane/rent/food)i just can't see going on a chance again. especially since it will take me five years with my income just to pay for that. i did spend 6.5 weeks in a place i wasn't too crazy about, that's enough. i'd rather be someplace that i love.

sorry about the metro theft in paris. that's horrible. i know that the entire time that i was there, everytime i stepped into the metro station, they made announcements about theives being in the metro in both english and french (but not spanish strangely).

after being in spain and living where i did, i was already very paranoid about stuff like that. i can see how it can happen with someone who isn't as paranoid. i felt completely safe most of the time in paris, but again, i'm black, and i really think that helps in many of these instances because even though i was living in the red-light district, pigalle, surrounded by prostitutes, sex workers, and johns, and was asked if i wanted to smoke pot twice by strange men, i never once felt uneasy or at risk and was more often than not, as in madrid, as in the u.s., assumed to be the criminal risk.

oh...one of the funniest things i noticed about madrid is that when you drop change you can be almost assured that no one is going to bend over to pick it up and run off with it as they are all afraid that they are in the middle of a theft scheme themselves. quite ironic.

but i can't even imagine going to the embassy for another passport. how that must suck. it would definitely ruin my trip.

My parents, sister, brother-in-law, and niece were the targets of a number of pickpocket attempts in Paris too, and that definitely colored their impression of the place. (Though see my recent post about my brother-in-law's arrest of a pickpocket in the Louvre--he's a cop and his training kicked right in).

I have never (knowingly) been targeted in Spain, and have had generally favorable experiences during my four vists there. My husband didn't care for Madrid either, but loved places like Toledo, Avila, Salamanca, etc. I didn't feel as safe during this trip to Madrid as I had on previous ones, though not for any reason I'm aware of. Just a funny gut feeling, I guess.

I do understand your reluctance to return--I had some bad experiences in Bordeaux and in Brittany, and wouldn't want to go back anytime soon. But still, someday I hope I (and you) will give some of those places a chance to redeem themselves!

And I just have a feeling, given your other posts, that you might like Barcelona and other parts of the north of Spain! I know I'm planning to take my next Spanish trip en el norte!

As always, you've given us all a lot to think about. Thanks, sheba!
Tara

I forgot this other rudeness in stores thing earlier: in Salamanca I wanted to get an ankle bracelet with the charra symbol on it. So I asked the man if he had them, and he started to tell me how he could make any sort of bracelet by stringing together pieces of necklaces. He did that for me and as he was putting it on, he said, "Oh it looks like I need another necklace, your ankles are very thick." Which they are NOT, but I guess compared to size-0 españolas there was a difference. My ankles were about the only part of my body I did not already have a complex about...

Oh, the lovely customer service in Madrid! I know this probably doesn't help, but I think it's improving with time (at least that's my perspective).

I had a lady at the MAC counter in Madrid tell me my eyes were too close together! (They aren't, either. I swear). My friend and I were laughing. I wanted to tell her that her boobs and her bellybutton were too close together.

Every time I go to see my suegra, she comments on my weight gain. When I got married I was 5'10" and 125 lbs. Now, every pound I put on is free game for her. One time I was visiting and the first thing she said was how much weight I had gained. After several days and several remarks, I told her I didn't think it was very polite to repetitively comment on my weight-gain. Then, I heard her talking to her sister on the phone and she said something about how much weight I had gained but that I didn't think it was polite to talk about it. I give up!

What does all of this do to young Españolas? I hate to think that they are all going to be suffering from eating disorders or saving for cosmetic surgery because of it. We've only begun to scratch the surface of body/image acceptance here in the US, and have so far to go...but how sad that, in Spain, they seem to be behind even us.

It reminds me of how I read somewhere that lots of VERY young Brazilian women have plastic surgery/liposuction to keep flat tummies and impossibly small backsides.

My brother made an interesting observation when he was in Salamanca. He had a few months without school so he joined a local fitness club to keep busy a couple hours a day. He said it amazed him that there were never women exercising there and if they were, they had full makeup and it was almost like their activites were just for show. He was thinking that was the reason that many Spanish women "bottom out".....meaning while they are young they are thin as picks and then something happens later where they lose their looks and figures.(his observation -not mine) It was true though that I never saw a single Spaniard exercizing during my short time there. It's funny but the Latin women in my family are perpetually on some crazy fad diet but none of them has actually have considered the concept of excercise. They won't eat carbs for two months and then the next month they can only eat cabbage soup and grapefruit juice.

Jaime, I think British men must bottom out, too. Could have something to do with the San Miguel in my case

Anyway, I thought all Spanish girls hunted and got their man and then relaxed?

Have you noticed that all the Spanish board members seem to be males? Maybe this will bring the girls out of the woodwork ....

Well, I think the main reason here in Spain for thin people to get a little bit fat as they get older is the change of life that you do when you beguin to work, you have kids, etc.. you make a more sedentary life, you have less time for yourself to do sports...and you are more time sat on a chair in a office.
Anyway, I would have also size problems in the UK or US probably, unless I wanted to go to the children section. I hope not to have them in Spain, as people here is taller each time.

Who says "size doesn't matter"? as we are led to believe, seems to be very much of a problem in Spanish shops. Having read the reports on this thread, it would appear that "size does matter". What a pathetic world we live in!! I personally have not encountered any predujice as I am probably considered average by Spanish standards, so therefore have not encountered any crass remarks. I feel for you guys and dolls who have had the unfortunate experience of a callous tongue. Guess I'd better keep working out!!!!!!!

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: SuePycroft ]

My daughter and I enjoyed so much shopping in Madrid and Seville. I do feel for Sheba having to experience such rudeness from store attendants. I did not expect such comments regarding rudeness. With Sheba’s experience, I hope those reading this site are forewarned that “Size does Matter in Spain” (quoting SuePycroft’s comment) when shopping for clothes. I guess, my daughter and I were very lucky to have the dress size of stores like Zarah, Mango, and Amichi. My daughter who is in New York is so happy that there is a Zarah where she could shop. I cannot blame Sheba for not planning or even think of returning to Spain. I do feel so guilty because I posted so many positive comments on my recent Spain Experience. I guess, we should take heed of others comments because those experiences may not be transferable for we as individuals react or perceive to things differently. I could go to Paris, Rome and may have a negative experience and others might have positive experiences.

Somewhere in here I read something about a person's eyes being too close together. I had to chuckle. It reminded me of a rude incident my wife had in a well known eye glass center when she was looking for a pair of glasses.

The young, gum snapping clerk, who was 5 ft. tall at best, told my wife she didn't look right in "young people's glasses." That she should pick out something more "matronly."

My wife smiled at her.

"I'll forget that one." My wife said. "I realize you probably got a concussion when your a** hit the curb when you crossed the street on your way into work."

That was in the U.S. Not Spain.... Rudeness is everywhere. Sometimes you just fight fire with fire.

Wolf (Whose wife is a source of many of his anecdotes.)

To start with: most of the Spanish people are unreserved, friendly, helpful and courteous (or possess any other positive attribute). But… there are a***oles (replace *** with ssh ;)) among all nationalities and why would the Spaniards be an exception?! Same goes with the size: it matters everywhere. Unfortunately!

My experiences are good as well as bad but I remember especially one occasion. It was my first visit in Madrid for six years ago. I don´t wear fancy clothes, I´m more “a jeans and T-shirt–person”. When I entered El Corte Inglés (la Puerta del Sol), I was quite unpleasantly affected by the treatment of the staff, more exactly their facial expressions. They seemed to think: “Does she really think she can afford buying something here?” or “ She looks like a shoplifter. I have to follow her wherever she goes.” Nowadays the gazing doesn´t bother me at all, but at that time I was not prepared. I wanted to buy a computer game to my son and didn´t know what it is called in Spanish. I spoke in English to a shop assistant who watched me and her rude answer was: “YO no hablo inglés!”. I was very surprised: how can she work there (a big store in the centre of Madrid!) if she doesn´t speak English??? Luckily a woman (Spanish, with good English skills) passed by and heard her answer and helped me out with the translation.

I don´t have very Scandinavian looks but I´m not as dark haired as the Spanish people and that can cause problems, too. Somehow the people take for granted that they won´t be able to communicate with a person who looks different… I can talk to someone in several minutes (in Spanish and my Spanish is not that bad!) and then suddendly the person brightens up and seems to think: “I understand what she´s saying and she understands me. Great!”


I have also noticed that the shop assistants treat me very differently now that I´m quite fluent in Spanish. I can understand that they are pleased about that a foreigner speaks their language. I would be equally flattered if a foreigner spoke my mother tongue to me, but trying to learn Finnish would cause anyone a nervous breakdown… Anyhow, the more you chat the more the shopping cheapens, i.e. in smaller shops or “quioscos”. An excellent example is a bottle of water: the price varied from 75 ptas to 150 ptas in Ronda. I wonder how much the locals pay? They don´t drink bottled water, of course, but other things...

I'm back to this thread because I just keep thinking about all the good experiences I had in Spain.I've lived and traveled in many countries and always tried to blend in..often by not opening my mouth.But not this trip.As I spoke no Spanish when I arrived I purchased a phrasebook(even that purchase was a challenge.The shopkeeper tried to sell me a dictionary which I promptly opened up and found the word for phrasebook to get my point across.In 2 weeks I was discussing such topics as how credit cards force shopkeepers to charge more(while he polished a $20 necklace I was buying til it looked like diamonds)as well as how unfortunately my hip size doesn't quite match my upper torso with a saleslady in a boutique, all with the help of my little book.I just loved the challenges of dealing with those shop keepers and they really appreciate the effort.Also, go to most East Coast resort areas in the US and see what the ratio is of friendly,helpful people there are in shops after being deluged with tourists day in day out.Rudeness is never justified but I just don't play ball on that court and life is good. I also noticed nice comradery amongst co-workers in stores and restaurants.

I'm back too...to tie in with your comment on the positive experiences we post on this board and the danger that it may mislead someone. We've ALL had bad shopping experience...probably in various countries, including our own. I think it's pretty amazing, actually, that so many people find clothes and shoes that they like and that fit when they go to another country, because I have a rough time doing it here! There are some stores I won't shop in because I know all their clothes are sized for girls without "child bearing hips." There are only two stores in town where I have any chance at all of finding shoes that fit...and one of them sometimes fits me in men's shoes! It's rough going somewhere new and magically stumbling upon THE store that can fit you. I know that when on a trip to a place we really get to like, we want to take all of it home...including the clothing. Unfortunately, that clothing may not look at all good on us (not all styles and colors flatter everyone!) and it just may not work out.

I also agree with Wolf in that sometimes you have to fight fire with fire!

This thread is unique!!! What a terrific source of how forgeiners think in our country

I understand that you may feel that spaniards are a bit rude, but think that the most of the time it is not made with a bad intention, it is just our way of saying things (in fact, there is nothing wrong with being a little overweighted or underweighted).

I have been in the States, in Ireland and in the UK (appart from other countries) and I have never had any problem while shopping (it might be luck or not). Only that I was not used to have the prices separated from the taxes (here they give you the price with the taxes included), so it drove me nuts...

Of course I have had problems while shopping in Spain, but it is normal since I have shopped here a lot of times.

If someone ever is rude with you just think he/she is not doing it with a bad intention, just for unknowledge.

If you ever want someone who speaks english (or any other language) to assist you ask for him. You will find that if any other customer hears you and he speaks english he will try to help you (and by the way practice some english). I've do it myself a couple of times (and the tourists seemed amazed, don't know why)

It occurred to me while I was doing my hour long walk on the treadmill so as not to have to worry about size that there really are no other words in Spanish to say fat except gordo or one of its variations. That may be part of the problem! See, we have all kinds of ways to say things, depending on how mean/pc we mean to be. We have fat, of course, and chubby, husky, rubenesque, statuesque, stocky, zaftig, pudgy, plump, rotund, obese,fleshy, BMI challenged...good grief! If Spanish has only one adjective, they are pretty much stuck with calling a pudgy person fat...just because there are no other options. We'll have to talk to the Real Academia about this!

ALSO...Anchovy: I have noticed that as people age, they tend to migrate to the south. The same can be said for body fat! Coincidence?

La maestra(who will be munching on alfalfa sprouts instead of popcorn while watching tv!)

in all my years of shopping in the states (i am a shopaholic), i have never had someone comment on my weight when trying on clothes. maybe it is because even though i'm a size large, i carry myself well, or maybe it's because i usually approach people with a smile, or maybe it's because size 12 is not the end of the line in sizes or maybe it's because i am usually dressed very well. size 12 is not large at all in real life. it is actually quite average, in fact, it's the national average of the u.s. and i am not fat, it happens to be a lot of muscle from running everyday. i am black, i have big thighs, a big ass, everything about me is big and black. so, i know that the way in which these comments were made, these were insults directed at me to hurt me or to make me feel big and black. hell yes, i'm big and black. so what? but it bothered them that i was even there, let alone trying on clothes, so they struck me where they thought it would hurt. it's true, women can be their own worst enemies. they can really make each other feel like crap over the most trivial of things. so now i'm back in my state and all around me i see these bovine women...and i feel o.k. again. here we need the fat to stave off the cold, there they don't need it...but you can be damn sure we have plenty of size 2's on our shelves waiting for them when they come, thanks to our screwed up body perceptions as well.

Very astute observation, maestra! Correct, too it seems! Did you say (Hostal) Aresols, Auntie Jo?

Listen, people, can we get back to the size doen't matter idea, because for the last 20 years I've been telling my wife this and I don't want her to think otherwise.....!!
Anchovy (Wandering off the topic of clothing)

no offense people, but its funny that you american folks are talking about fat like its not a problem inside your nation. Especially one thing that made me crack was the statement that “here (meaning states) we need the fat to stave off the cold, there they don't need it”, sound like you guys are bunch of nudists, not wearing clothes at all.

(If this is true, I'll head there on my next vacation)

-S

SSF,

Hey! Come on over anyway SSF! We have lots of great smorgasbords where I live!

I read something very interesting. According to studies, overweight people who exercise have a longer life expectancy than those who aren't overweight, and don't exercise regularly.

So there... skinny people! The scoop on physical fitness. Even us hippo types, who sweat our way through painful exercises, and walking, can live long lives.

I do like the skinny jokes too. Like;

"Did you know it costs less to x-ray a skinny person?"

"They don't use x-ray, they just shine a flashlight through them."

Wolf (Who's still trying to figure out what the doctor meant when he shined his light in my ear when I had an ear ache, and said, "Nope! Nothing there!")

Sheba, I am not big and I am not black, so I can't say I share those experiences with you. I am truly sorry to hear that you or ANYONE has been verbally assaulted or insulted in any way because of any physical feature...race, gender, weight, height, hair color, etc. It should never happen. It does...frequently by people whose own insecurities can only be soothed by belittling others.

That said, I think you are lumping two different problems together. Weight is a relative thing. I had several Spanish people ask me if it was true that weight was a serious problem in the States...and we have gotten our share of press on this issue. We have more obese people in the US than there are in Europe. Fact, not perception. Some of this comes from our life style which includes lots of time sitting at the office, in our cars, and in front of the tube as well as our new trend towards super sizing all our meals. Our children are plumping up and diabetes is on the rise. You are obviously in good physical condition and not "fat". Our clothing manufacturers, however, are cutting to what they think women look like (sometimes this is done in 3rd world countries where the average woman is 5'tall/90 lbs!) Sizes don't mean squat. I have tried on 3 different outfits from THE SAME MANUFACTURER and found I needed 3 different sizes! It's insane. Some manufacturers seem to have realized the problem and have adjusting their sizes to more realistically fit the "average" female shape in the US....that does not mean that everyone in every country has adjusted to fit us! In addition, if larger sizes (and I mean larger relative to the size 2's you mentioned) don't sell in stores, they simply don't carry them. The stores in Spain are not going to stock items that fit tall, muscular American women just in case some of those women decide to shop there. If the store clerks were rude beyond this, then they were just rude. There are rude people everywhere, and you obviously hit the motherlode.

As for your being black...now that's another issue. Victoria (see Asian thread) mentioned that she started to imagine blondes being called "rubia, rubia" as they walked down the street and that helped her deal with the "chinita" comments. I thought that was incredibly wise. No, I've never been a black woman and I can't know what that feels like, but neither can you know what it is like to be a white woman. Sometimes we are treated in the same way...not for racist reasons at all. Every single rude or inconsiderate word or action that comes your way is not based on your race...some of it is just plain ignorant behavior that is directed at everyone...or, perhaps, at everyWOMAN. If you want to argue that Spain is sexist, then maybe you're on to something since women's rights there are in a whole other place. But basing all your bad experiences on racism, in my opinion, is off base.

I am sincerely sorry that your experience in Spain was not what you had hoped for. It really is a wonderful country and I hope someday you'll feel up to giving it another shot.

Sheba, sorry to hear that your trip wasn't what you would have wished. It is the great gamble of traveling. I do think one's experiences in a place are totally colored by the people he or she meets, and one trip can be totally different than the next. The first two times I visited Paris, I was thoroughly underwhelmed. When I had a chance to live there for a while, I totally fell in love with the city and am constantly dreaming about going back...

anyway, on the topic of comments about weight... When I lived in Chile, one of my English students was Spanish. She was constantly complaining that Chileans made her feel horrible about being overweight (she had a thyroid problem and was a/o 5'3" & plump). They would do things like hand out chocolates at work, and when they got to her, would say, "oh, you can't have any of these. You need to lose weight." Her perspective was interesting, due to the fact that the Spanish family I lived with nearly drove me crazy with all of the weight conscious comments. By the way, their daughter was bulimic, i heard her throwing up in the bathroom a few times.

Anyway, I know about buying out of anger. Remember the store clerk in Italy? I wasn't sure I wanted those sandals, until she implied that I was too poor to pay for them. I bought them - $135 - the most exhorbitant amount of money I have ever spent on something that wasn't a business suit...

What the store clerks said to you was definitely rude. I do think it almost tragic how body perceptions are totally screwed up, and it has taken me some time to get really comfortable with my body and its shape. Nonetheless, I think the tendency for sedentary lifestyles and obesity in the States are equally unhealthy. Both can be debilitating ways of treating your own body. That said, after biking to work and back, I will probably sit down to a dinner of chicken curry, made with butter and cream and smoke my after-dinner cigarette. so who am I to talk?

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Nicole ]

la maestra--hello again. i'm glad you wrote back. just to hopefully clear things up, i was not implying that the clerks were racist. i was just saying that i'm big and black. something i'm very proud of. i link the two together, because more often than not, black women are big and black: big thighs, big butt, big bones. just big and black. sorry if this was confusing. i'm just so dang proud of it now after being in spain.

Sheba, Maybe you should take a vacation to Milwaukee. I feel like a second class citizen in the looks department whenever I go out with my girlfriends of different cultures/races. My girlfriend from South Africa is as black as can be, not a Tyra type, wide hips, beautiful round curves and features and all guys .... white and black... are wacko for her wherever we go. All my Latin girlfriends get equal response. I don't think most of these guys would have remembered my name if I repeated it twenty times. At least in the area I live, exotic is in, curvaceous figures, etc... The days of the thin waif are on their way out...I hope.

God, I love Wisconsin. It might just be time to visit my sister in Milwaukee

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Nicole ]

I hope your not being sacastic Nicole !
I think I should be on the tourism board for Wisconsin since I love my city so much.


[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Jaime ]

Jaime,

Having been born in Racine, and spending most of my life in Wisconsin, I have to say that it's a very interesting place to live. It never fails to amaze me just how strong ethnic culture is in the state. Much of it culminating in the food fair Milwaukee holds each year, with millions of visitors.

I for one, have never walked away from it without feeling I really had a "taste of the world."

I've also felt that there were times I ate what the cat dragged in while there, and didn't want to know what the main ingredients were. But that's all a matter of taste.

El Gato (Just a Wolf in a cat skin coat, due to different computer... :))

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: ElGato ]

OK so this is my last response regarding Wisconsin so it doesn't dominate the thread

I'm not an advocate of all of Wisconsin being some kind of cultural mecca.Yikes?? I grew up in Green Bay which was the single most boring, noncultural place to live. However, I have lived on the east side of Milwaukee for the past seven years and this city pretty much has it all as far as culture goes....ethnic festivals on the lake all summer long...every kind of restaurant from African to Peruvian, diverse groups of people at the universities, etc... Not every part of Wisconsin is hicksville. I think its a good city to live in and really enjoy it.

Okay, this is MY last response about Wisconsin. I really do think it is a beautiful state. My sister did her undergraduate degree in Madison and part of Med school in Milwaukee, both of which I like a lot. We also spent a few summers camping on the Apostle islands, which are so, so pretty. Cultural mecca, no, but nice nonetheless. Minnesota ain't so bad either. We spent a few winters cross-country skiing there with family friends. damn cold though.

Anchovy,
Yes, I did say that, indeed, or grumbled... :o
It´s amazing how many new "oaths" one can learn on this board.

Auntie (who is determined not to mention that word ever again... or not untill booking alojamiento in Madrid)

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: tiajohanna ]