¡Hola! Would any American here be willing to renounce their U.S. citizenship for a Spanish/EU one? This is a dilemma I am facing, and just out of curiousity wanted to see what others would decide if faced with the same situation---of course each comment with be based on a personal perspective. I've lived in Europe before, not Spain, and loved it. I've only seen Spain as a tourist. Although, some relatives lived there once (some are still there...native Spaniards) and they mention all the time how much they loved it---they never really got use to the American way of life.

No...I would not renounce my US citizenship for any other country.

I love Spain. I have lived there for many years. But, give up my nation...sorry, no way. I'm proud of who I am and from where I come.

Sheryl

Hi Sheryl. I see your point. In my case I am very proud of who I am too, which for me is a divided issue. Only one grandparent (Galician grandfather on my maternal side) was born in Spain; however, if you look back on completely both sides of my maternal and paternal ancestry lines, I am about 90% Spanish (i.e. paternal-paternal great grandparents were born in the Canary Islands) But, I was born and raised in the U.S., and I am also a part of this country as well. I think it's different when someone is attached to Spain by simply having lived there, as apposed to having an extensive blood/cultural connection.

Dear Ceb-

Don't know if I can say yes or no to your "bloodline" statement...but let's be honest, everyone in the US has a bloodline from somewhere else. My maternal grandmother came here from Russia...My paternal grandmother was the first in her family born here...having "escaped" Austria.

You mention your bloodline, I don't see that as a reason to renounce your nation. How many people are coming here looking for something better? It seems to me...your ancesters came here looking for something else...yes, an escape from Franco...but, they stayed.

My stepsons are from Italy...as is my husband. They all were born, raised and educated there. They love their home country...but chose and choose to live here. There must be a reason other than blood that pulls a person back to their roots.

I am not making fun of your words, it's just that they seem to ring in my ears.

Ah, by the way, perhaps my chosing this country over another deals with the reality of other countries throwing out and or rejecting my family because of religious intolerance. Why would I want to go to a place where my family was tortured and killed?

When I'm asked where I'm from...my answer is simple: New York City. After the 9/11 attacks, I was even more proud to say that I'm a native New Yorker.

Sheryl

At the moment I have only a US citizenship, but I have been eligible for dual citizenship with another European country all my life. (My parents were not yet naturalized US citizens when I was born.) Even when I lived in Spain I saw no need to bother with the paperwork and get another citizenship - there was simply no need to have one other than US. And I had every intention of spending the rest of my life in Spain! My Spanish paperwork was in order, I had both residency and working papers, so all was fine. I saw no need to change anything.

Lately I have been considering applying for the second citizenship because it would make moving back to Europe without a job first so much easier. I also consider eventually buying property in Europe, and I imagine that, too, would be easier. But I don't see any reason to drop US citizenship, no matter how much I'd rather live in Europe. There are advantages to being able to return to the US - especially for economic/financial reasons.

Thanks again for your input Sheryl. My ancestors didn't go from Spain to America---but to Latin America. My birth and upbringing in the U.S. has nothing to do with them, or escaping Franco's rule. True, most Americans have origins outside of this country, but from what I've encountered many don't have any continual ties to their former roots.

Hi Diana. My mother is eligible for a Spanish/EU citizenship based on her late Spanish father. She was not naturalized as an American when I was born, just a resident, and was born in a Latin American country. Therefore, I don't know why I cannot automatically get Spanish citizenship once she becomes Spanish?? The consulates here give conflicting info.

Btw Diana, how easy is it to get residency in Spain after buying property there? How many years?

Hi ceb,
I'm afraid I can't help you with either question - I just don't know the answers! I would imagine that if your mother didn't have Spanish citizenship at the time of your birth, regardless of whether she was elegible, you wouldn't be able to get it, but I really don't know the Spanish policy on that. As for getting residency after buying property, I'm afraid I don't know that either. In my case it was the other way around - I had already been a resident for quite a few years before buying property.

Thanks Diana. Your information was helpful. I also doubt it, since my mother was not Spanish (still isn't) prior to my birth. My mother is planning on becoming Spanish and retiring in Spain soon, and as her only child I wonder if the Spanish government will see me as her sole "care giver"? I also have loads of Spanish aunts/uncles, and cousins, which makes it a great idea to live in Spain---as we're a very close knit family. If only I could find a way around the "red tape" .

CEB: If you are a minor you are eligible for Spanish Citizenship once your mother becomes Spaniard. However, if you are of legal age (I think older than 18), you will have to legally live for 1 year in Spain to later become Spanish citizen. On the second case you mother does not have to become citizen since you can also do it through your grandparent connection, even if he or she is now death.

Actually, the present Spanish law kind of sucks because someone in your mother’s situation once becomes a Spanish citizen can only apply for citizenship for her underage kids, while her older kids cannot get it unless they go legally live in Spain for one year, which is very hard.

About residency through investment, you have to show proof of investments in Spain (through bank accounts or certificates of investment) worth at least 100,000 USD to the Spanish consulate in order to obtain an investor-type (self-employed) visa (add 15,000 more for each dependant that comes with you to Spain), in addition to a solid business plan. After a year of legal residency in Spain as a self-employed investor you can apply for citizenship before the Ministry of Justice as the grandson of a Spaniard citizen. I think MM wrote about this investor's visa some place else on this board.

Ceb: Have you lived, not vacationed, before in Spain. If that's not the case I would suggest that you go there first for a year and see of life in Spain is what you expected. Then you can start thinking about dropping your U.S., citizenship.

I have both an Irish and an American. I was able to get Irish citizenship a few years back due to the fact that my grandparents were born there. Also when living and playing hockey in Denmark in the late '80's I was given the opportunity to become a danish citizen in order to play on their national team, but would have had to drop my US passport in order to do so. I am now happy to have both the Irsh and American passports, but would never give up my American. I lived in Europe for seven years and loved the time I spent over there, but deep down I am an American through and through and would never give that up.

Jabch, yes the immigration laws appear unsound, so much so, that if it were my father becoming a Spanish citizen now, my age wouldn't matter and I wouldn't have to live in Spain for a year to get a passport---the nearest consulate would provide this. A BIT of gender discrimination! Does it appear like this will ever legally change, because I am over 21 yrs. old? I mean, has there been some complaints regarding this inequality?

PS: I am female

Hi ColinK. This is another thing that I can't understand, why is it that other EU countries give citizenship to those with grandparents born there without a hassle...Ireland, Britain, Italy, etc. No one-year stays, just a flat out passport provided from the nearest consulate in the U.S. I don't know why Spain doesn't provide the same??

Hi again Jabch. Just visited Spain. One important thing to add is that having a Spanish passport doesn't restrict a person just to Spain...but opens the door to living and working throughout the EU. Previously someone mentioned the financial/economic reason of being American...for years the dollar has been weak against some European currencies (like UK pounds going as far back as 1997)...and the Euro now is over our heads.

Ceb- I believe Ireland did this a few years ago to try and lure young professionals back to Ireland. I don't think the deal is still available. I did it around eight years ago.

CEB,

You ask:
Why do you feel you have to give up your citizenship? There are many Americans with dual nationalities.

Hi Booklady. The only way I'll be able to immigrate to Spain will be on the grandparent ammendment of 09-Jan-03. I was told by some local Spanish consulates that after living one year in Spain and giving up my U.S. citizenship I'd get Spanish/EU citizenship. This seems so unreal to me (doesn't make sense really), the being asked to drop my current citizenship bit. What is the point?!

Precisely! There are many U.s. citizens that become spanish citizens through marriage and they get to keep their U.S. citizenship. This I know because there have been threads and many members of this board have said so.

Now, if you are like me, a naturalized U.s. citizen, we would lose our citizenship automatically if we change citizenship. My parents were both born in Spain, and I would have little trouble obtaining a Spanish citizenship, but it would come at the expense of losing my U.S. citizenship, and I value that too much to do so.

But, after I retire I hope to go and live in my Father's village in Galicia, at least for awhile until I have grandkids!

Booklady wrote:
While I'm not 100% certain, I think what they gained through marriage was NOT citizenship but rather RESIDENCY. These are two very different things. It's my understanding that we US Citizens CAN have duel-citizenship but Spain does NOT allow duel citizenship so the only way we could have this Spanish citizenship is to denounce our US Citizenship. Maybe this'll change someday on the side of Spanish government.

While, again, not certain, I don't think any of those who married Spanish citizens gained citizenship but rather they gained residency.

As for me, should the opportunity arise, I would most definitely NOT drop/denouce my USA Citzenship in order to become a Spanish citizen. What's the point? Spanish RESIDENCY offers nearly the same rights and benefits (I think) as Spanish CITIZENSHIP.

Saludos, MadridMan

I got married to a Spaniard in the late 1980s and was able to get residency in Spain. (Spain had just entered the EU.) At that time, I could have gotten Spanish citizenship but was told that I would have to give up my US citizenship. The only thing (in my opinion) that I "missed out" on by not being a citizen of Spain was the right to vote. Even after I divorced, I was still able to renew my residency and continue to work and live in Spain without being married to a Spaniard.

Since moving back to the U.S., my residency card has long expired but I'm still a U.S. citizen.

I don't know how much things have changed since then - about 10 years ago - but I don't think it's that "easy" to get dual citizenship.

marilisa

As MadridMan and Marilisa said, there is a difference as far as Spain is concerned between residency and citizenship. While the U.S. government allows (but doesn't encourage) dual citizenship, according to Spain you do need to renounce your previous citizenship to become a Spanish citizen.

On the other hand, a friend of mine became a Spanish citizen, and after the judge administered the oath renouncing his previous citizenship, the judge himself told him, "don't worry, the countries don't really talk to each other." In other words, there's the law as written in the books, and then there's what happens in the real world.

That's one of my favorite examples to help explain to people why "Spain is different."

Well said ggladman.It reminds me of a song by Joaquin Sabina that says "Mi Atleti,mi Espana y yo semos diferentes".Wow how nice it would be to be able to have both citizenships.But my humble opinion is that no matter how much we love Spain it is a HUMONGOUS price to pay for any american to renounce U.S citizenship.To be a citizen of this great good old USA is ,like the Mastercard commercial says,priceless.Let me put it to you this way.There are millions of people out there in the world who are dreaming of living here because the conditions in their countries are awful.

Bueno, I stand corrected MadridMan. As the great Gilda Radner used to say: " Never Mind!

Hi ggladman. What occurred with your friend was it before, or after 9/11? Because, I think countries DO communicate now.

Thanks MadridMan and Marilisa. Heah, could I get residency in my situation---and from the U.S.?

Hi ceb...this was actually in 2002, but I think you're right that it's getting more and more likely that countries will start communicating this kind of information. In this case my friend was Canadian, but when you consider that all new Spanish passports are being changed to comply with the U.S. guidelines, it seems like they're all moving toward the same standards.

ggladman, I read this:

Spanish Citizenship

After you have been a resident of Spain for two to ten years (depending on the circumstances under which you got your residency), you have the right to apply for citizenship. Once your application is approved, you swear allegiance to the King and to the Spanish Constitution. The public body in charge of citizenship is the Ministerio de Justicia; the place to apply is the Registro Civil.

You must technically renounce citizenship with your country of origin (unless you're from Latin America, Portugal, Philippines, Ecuatorial Guinea, Andorra, or you're a Sephardic Jew).
In practice, countries do not generally exchange this information, so as long as you don't show both passports at the airport, you won't get in trouble.

Is it worth getting citizenship? The main difference is you can get a passport and the right to vote, though there are many minor advantages (EU citizen rates for museums, etc.)
=================================================

Is it possible to get a residency card for Spain, while still in the U.S.? Obviously, with the hopes of living in Spain a.s.a.p. Has anyone here done this route. Again, I'd be applying under the basis that my grandfather was a Spaniard.

After reading the advice here, I see little point of getting a second passport, when I may be able to get residency. If I am not mistaken, being a Spanish resident allows someone to work in other EU countries(?).

ceb, to get that residency card while in the U.S. you'd have to get someone in Spain to hire you, and the process is long, difficult, and has been discussed at great length on this bulletin board. Try a search - there's a lot on it. The bottom line, however, is that it is extremely difficult for an American to get a legal job in Spain without being highly specialized in something a company in Spain needs.

Spanish residency would not be enough to get a job in another EU country. For that you'd need EU citizenship, or prove that you should get working papers & residency in that country as an American.

My children have dual citizenship in the U.S. and Spain. They were born in Spain and I'm American, whereas their dad is Spanish. So it's possible that way. As far as what happens when they turn 18, the laws change regularly, and it's anyone's guess, but it looks pretty certain now that they can continue having both nationalities. This is an area where nothing is set in stone. But there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people in this same situation, and for the time being they can have dual nationalities and neither country is doing anything about it. (I have a document somewhere about it, published by the US embassy in Spain, but it was clear that anything in it could change at any time.) On the Spanish side, the only thing we were told about the dual nationality was that if one were to serve in the armed forces of one of the countries, the dual nationality could become a problem and one of the nationalities might have to be given up - but even that wasn't set in stone.

Hi and thanks Diana. I think my query has too many specifics for a search here to fully cover---and I've done an extensive job reading through past posts. I guess I'll just cross my fingers that one day the law will change for me (and others in my situation) not to have to lose US citizenship in pursuit of obtaining a Spanish/EU one.

Thanks a bunch everyone---this website is wonderful!

I can't answer your original question but I do know the laws are constantly changing. Recently, a friend of mine found out that she can now apply for a Spanish passport after having given up her Spanish citizenship years ago to be able to obtain a U.S. passport. So, after 20 years, she is now able to be a dual citizen! If that is the case, perhaps things have changed those trying it the other way around??? This information she got was from the consulate in Washington D.C. and she has received and filed the paperwork.

Hi CEB.

I am an American married to a Spaniard living in Spain. I have Spanish/EU residency (regimen comunitaria) and US citizenship. I would never give up my US citizenship for a number of reasons. I have casually enquired about becoming a dual national but as it has been previously stated, for an American (in my situation) to get Spanish citizenship, I would have to renounce my US citizenship.

I have been told by numerous sources that "it doesn't really matter, even if you do sign a document saying that you give up your citizenship it never goes anywhere and doesn't mean anything."

If it doesn't go anywhere and doesn't mean anything, why do I have to do it in the first place?? Not to be paranoid or anything, but I would never want to have that kind of documentation in existance "por si acaso". The governments might not talk to each other now, but who knows what may happen in the future.

Until the day that I can have both citizenships without a doubt, I will stick with my US citizenship. Thank you very much. :p

As Madrid Man suggested, there are only a few things that I cannot do as a resident of Spain that I could do if I were a citizen. The one thing that matters to me is not being able to vote in national elections. However, I CAN vote in local elections (which surprisingly if you are a legal resident in the USA you cannot do).

Good luck in your quest!

Hi Chica. Actually, I found this website and it gets into detail about not "really" losing your US passport...and this is coming from an American perspective. The idea of getting a notarized document beforehand stating that you don't intend to actually renounce US citizenship, was interesting.

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#losing

I also called my nearest consulate today and now was told that you "technically" renounce, but, nothing else is done about it and that I can still keep both passports. In fact, I always found it odd that one country could determine your citizenship status with another country. It's like the Mexican government setting laws/guidelines for US citizens. When you read the above website info you'll see court cases where ppl have actually lost their US citizenship and then been able to regain it. I do wonder if during this "renouncing meeting" will one's US passport be requested? Like the case mentioned here about the Canadian---wonder if his passport was handed in?

Hi ceb,

In the case of my Canadian friend, he didn't have to hand over his Canadian passport; he still has both his Spanish and Canadian passports.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Chica (and my situation is about the same)...if the benefits of moving from being a Spanish/EU resident to a Spanish citizen are limited to voting in national elections, and there's no guarantee that it won't complicate my situation later, I don't see much reason to go through the process. Of course, for people who have ancestors from Spain, it may be more important to them for personal reasons.

Hi ggladman. Thanks for the reply about your friend. I agree w/everything you wrote regarding Chica's post. Each person is a world, and decisions are based on this fact. However, I cannot become a resident(I wish I could)based on my grandfather. The Spanish gov. views the initial visa as an entry that will end with citizenship after a one-year stance there---nothing less. Actually, after further consideration (and more information I've gained)I am in the process of seeking US legal assistance with notarized documents---in case needed to prove that my true intention was not to denounce my American citizenship, and also seek a Spanish representative to cover other legalities that need to be addressed on that end. It helps that I can see some potential employment options, primarily due to family/friends of my family contacts.

It is very unlikley that I would ever renounce my citizenship of the US. The peoples of other countries should be proud of their countries, and many of them want to come to the US and become citizens. But rememeber, that Lee Harvey Oswald after renouncing his citizenship decided to return from the workers paradise of the USSR. Also it should be pointed out that the late Col. David Hackworth came home after over twenty years in Australia. Sooner or later, no mater where you are from or what you left behind, you are going to get home sick. It should also be pointed out that Joe Conforte of Mustang Ranch fame has found that living in Brazil is starting to grind on his well being, and has been attempting to strike a deal with the IRS so that he can come back and spend out his remaining years in the western part of the US.

There are only a couple of forms for you to fill out if that is what you want to do, and then you are done with the US. You had better know full well what you are doing. Also while you are out of the US you had better watch what you say and do because if you ever come back, you might find when you get off the plane a couple of civil servants wearing cheap flannel suits waiting for you. The US government does not have the time and money to do a lot of things, but some how they seem to not have any problem getting the money to monitor people in other countries that have renounced their citizenship.

To quote Lee Greenwood "and I am proud to be an American where at least I know Iam free."

Nobody cusses the US more than the Desert Dweller, but you see where he lives. Whats more he has the right to cuss it, there has been a lot of blood shed in the past 200 years to give the Desert Dweller and everyone else that right.

Points taken Desert Dweller; overall, heed cautiously. Filing a U.S. tax form yearly, no matter if you have anything to pay or not on a 'worldy' income, is one (of many) requirement I'd advice others to do in a similiar situation.

It is because Spain and the USA don't have a dual citizenship agreement. That's why you are supposed to renounce to your US citizenship. But even the judges say clearly that the Spanish Justice will not communicate that renouncing to the US Authorities, so as far as nobody in the US Administration knows you have renounced your US citizenship, you can still keep and renew your US passport, have 'friendly' relationships with the IRS, etc.

The only point in getting the Spanish citizenship is in case you intend to live and work permanently in Spain (or in any UE country, what a Spanish passport allows automatically you to do, after a bit of paperwork).

Thanks Torrales. Why is it that one has to get a visa (one of the ones offered: like bus. investment, job contract, etc.);beforehand, like others that want to live in Spain but don't have the ancestor connection? I ask, b/c a friend of mine wants to to go through the same steps as myself, but was told by her 'local' consulate that she would have to get a "normal" visa first, then mention to authorities while living in Spain (after one-year) that she had a Spanish grandmother. At this point, she could apply for citizenship. I was told by my 'local' consulate that I could NOT work the first year, and that once the year was up and I got the Spanish passport, I could do as any other citizen of the EU. I've been told that different consulates have their own guidelines; this is crazy. Any feedback on why this is the case?

>>>Spanish residency would not be enough to get a job in another EU country. For that you'd need EU citizenship, or prove that you should get working papers & residency in that country as an American.>>

That is some sort of misunderstanding of the concept of "EU citizenship". "EU citizenship" is not a stand-alone or "strap on" thing to have.

Once you have acquired the citizenship of ANY EU member country (some temporary limitations apply to the new EU countries), you automatically are considered a EU citizen. This does not require any additional application or procedure.

The fundamental right of free movement of EU citizens includes the right to settle in any other EU country provided you can prove means of subsistence (a job, property, even unemployment benefits, someone to support you). You need to follow the "local" laws on registration and how to prove your subsistence level, but it is the same procedure for all EU citizens. That you also might have a Third country citizenship (= US) should not play any role unless you insist to settle as an American citizen and not as a EU citizen.

Ceb and everyone else-
I'm caught in similar "waters", and don't know what to do. I live in the US and am proud to be a citizen. I was born in Spain though. Now I'm looking to relocate to spain and dont even know where to begin. Should I become a Spain Citizen? Do i have to give up my US citizenship? I haven't been to spain in over 15 years (im 30), and i lived in NYC, Denver, and California ... to find the same results... not happy. I'm more scared to do the jump than anything else. Please, any info or suggestions will be highly appreciated.

HOW ABOUT CREDIT CARDS AND STUFF LIKE THAT?
what happens when you relocate to EU/ Spain? Is your American Credit good there or in some cases bad? How about if you become a citizen there? Do you start from scratch all over again?
alex