I know we all believe in free speech and the open exchange of information but I find it disturbing the number of people who ask on this message board for ways to get around Spain and Europe's immigration and work rules and regulations. I have read numerous posts asking if it's ok to buy one way tickets, ok to work without a visa, ok to overstay a visa etc ad finitum...In a word NO...it is not ok and attempting to flout the laws of this or any other country can lead to your deportation and you can be banned from re-entering for a loooong time (up to 10 years).
I am an English citizen and therefore am entitled to live and work here, as an American you are not entitled to do anything except enjoy your vacation spend your money and then leave. I am also an American citizen and got my Green Card and eventually my Citizenship after many many years of effort and great expense. If the laws enforced by the INS to immigrants and tourists entering the USA were applied here none of you would get in... think about it...Madrid Man I would think it may be in your own interest to put a disclaimer notice at the head of this forum stating your non-condoning of any information posted here that aids in people breaking the laws of a country and society you claim to love, or just change the title of the forum to "How To Enter and Work Illegaly In Spain".
In the end people coming here and trying to bypass the laws just makes it harder for everyone else to do it the right way.
Just my 2 cents from Europe (now available in 25 flavors).
Monito

It's logical to assume that if you attempt to live and work in Spain illegally that, well, ILLEGAL=ILLEGAL and therefore it's not a proper thing to do.

If you search through my past postings on this topic you'll always and only see that I discourage this practice of attempting such a thing. Don't you think that if I, MadridMan, thought it was "okay" to live and work in Spain illegally that I would have done so by now after 10 years of searching for the legal way? Of course.

Also, if you search past postings you'll see very few (if any) threads on working/living illegally in Spain without me or others stating that this is an illegal practice and should not be attempted. Getting a one-way ticket to Spain is not illegal (as far as I know) but, of course, overstaying your visa is. Seems pretty simple to me.

I read all postings here on the message board and don't feel this is by any means a hot topic. As far as I've seen there's very very little discussion on how to live and work illegally in Spain. VERY little.

Thanks for your concern. It's always appreciated. You can be certain I'm monitoring the message board with the utmost responsibility/prudence.

Very sincerely, MadridMan

I'd like to stick up for Madridman here and support his statements about *not* encouraging anyone to break Spanish immigration / naturalization laws.

Having been a member since June of 2000, I have seen many many posts requesting information about how to bend and squeeze Spanish law. I have never seen Madridman condone that behavior.

Also, Monito, you are correct when you say that the only real right we Americans have in Spain is to visit, enjoy, then leave. That is true.

I do find it interesting, however, that your CEE (European Union) has just admitted 10 new countries this past week that cumulatively have more pourous borders than a 5,000 mile wide block of newly formed Swiss cheese.

And with the mass of illegal South American, muslim, and other immigrants, including our Al-Cowarda friends, I find it nearly hilarious that anyone would complain about Americans spending a loosely defined 'extra few weeks or months' in Spain to be a significant problem.

But I agree that if you want to cite 'letter of the law' as the solution to European immigration problems, then you should also apply that belief to *all* nationalities. Perhaps you do?

Monito --

I find your post interesting, and I fully agree that illegal immigration is just that, ILLEGAL. I am glad you brought this point up.

I work in the English teaching industry (I am, by the way American with Spanish residency, fully registered with the tax authorities as an autonomous worker) and I have to tell you two things:

1. Demand for competent, serious English teachers far outstrips the supply.

2. Although citizens of the EU have the right to live and work in other EU states, they have the obligation to do so paying their taxes accordingly. I can´t tell you how many EU citizens I have run into here in Spain teaching English who are doing so under the table and are not registered with the tax authority and not paying their appropriate taxes. These are individuals who live here on a year-round fulltime basis. These same individuals complain when any North American or Australian overstay their visa and work here illegally. To me, it´s one and the same. How illegal does one have to be to be illegal??

While I get frustrated with the illegal workers here (because many undermine what should otherwise should be a respectable career.. that of English teaching), we must also look to our governments to help aid/ease the situation by developing bi and multilateral agreements.

The governments should then take action upon the employers who hire illegal workers. Believe me, if the job opportunities weren´t here, illegal immigration would decline.

Putting a disclaimer at the head of a message board will not deter anyone who has the gumption to move to a foreign country to be illegal.

I am fully aware the Madridman does not support the idea of illegal immigration, and applaud his position. Any board member who has been following this forum is well aware of Madridman´s potision on all things Spain .

However, with the internet being a new form of communication, I also believe that those who are asking questions about working illegally or being in a country illegally deserve to have answers to their questions so they can make their "illegal" decision fully informed. I think that if most people could avoid it, they would. I don´t think anyone WANTS to be here illegally...especially not an American where the term illegal alien tends to carry extremely negative connotations. Most of the posts that I have read (no, I haven´t read them all), have been more along the lines of how to work in Spain legally.

Well I do think that the regulations should be equally applied to all nationalities, that's only fair. The list of nationalities that require a visa to enter Spain from South America is being added to and now includes Ecuador, and I see Venezuela not being far behind. The application requires that you have a round trip ticket and have a certain amount of money to live off during your stay, many tourists have been turned back at Barajas for not complying with these requirements, and I say "tourists" not potential visa overstayers.
My view is not that MadridMan actively condones "illegal" behaviour but that a number of posts here do condone it and actively seek to help others break the law, I'm worried that people here think that this is ok behaviour and are not aware of the risks they run by flouting the law and overstaying or working illegally.
Breaking the law is breaking the law no matter where you come from or the circumstances, it's not that overstaying your visa by a few months if you're American is any less of an illegal act than if you're Columbian, illegal immigration is illegal even if it's only for 6 months.
I cited the stringent methods of the INS as a comparison, now all travellers from potential hotspots (including Spain) are required to have their pictures and fingerprints taken when entering the USA, this doesn't happen here yet but probably won't be long in coming. I feel like there is a double standard in play, it's ok for Americans to come and play and overstay but we don't want illegal immigration in the US.
I'm sure that part of the requirements for a country to enter the EU is to reduce the porousness of their borders.
There have been menay calls on the government here to tighten immigration to Spain, both legal and illegal, and if they're going to make it harder for Morroccans, Subsaharan's etc to enter then why not for everyone. Most of Spain's illegal immigration comes from countries where the standard of living is much lower than in the EU and the immigration is economic, people come to work to get money to send home, or to get away from a potentially dangerous situation. Most of the immigrants that I know (my wife is from SouthAmerica so we know a few), want to get their residency and work permits, the number of people who sign up as Social Security payers (not claimers) rises every year because of these people who are prepared to work hard and spend a lot of time and money to make themselves legal. I guess there are a number of US citizens who genuinly would like to live and work here legally, but it is a hard road and the Spanish system is slow and Kafkaesque.
So do you want to come here and live and work and are you prepared to do what thousands of people do each year to register themselves...or...are you looking to come and hang out, overstay, work illegally and give nothing back to Spain? It's your choice...
Monito

Please explain this statement. If people are here illegally, they are contributing to the economy of Spain. What do you mean by give nothing back to Spain?

Take this into account, the number of people who have to come here illegally and prove themselves BEFORE being given the work visa and residency. Have you thought about that group?

I know of many English teachers who have had to take that route, and while they didn't like it, it was the only way to become LEGAL.

There are far and few chances for Americans to find a sweet job here that will allow them to stay here legally as they want. I'm not saying that it won't happen.

I can agree with some of what you are saying, but the way you worded it, to me at least, makes you come across as ANGRY. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you hostile in any way with your post?

As far as MadridMan is concerned, he wants to come over here the right way and never once has he told anyone to just DO IT, without having them consider the consequences of their actions. KUDOS, MadridMan.

I am awaiting your response.

Have a great day.

Shawn

>Please explain this statement. If people are >here illegally, they are contributing to the >economy of Spain. What do you mean by give >nothing back to Spain?
If people are here working illegally it's probably fair to say that they are not paying income taxes or social security. You could argue that spending the money earned here is giving back but I think that is splitting hairs, if you're working without a valid visa you are breaking the law. I don't see why anyone should get upset if I point that basic fact out.

>Take this into account, the number of people who >have to come here illegally and prove themselves >BEFORE being given the work visa and residency. >Have you thought about that group?
Which group is that? Nobody HAS to come here illegally, but yes they do, those most deserving of clemency and help are those seeking asylum, or to a certain extent those escaping from empoverished countries or from potentially dangerous situations. There is a difference in being an illegal immigrant from say Ecuador or Nigeria and being one from California. Most of the former have had no choice but to uproot themselves and their families and try to find a better life here. To attempt to make themselves legal is very expensive, not only are there lawyers fees but if you are offered a job you need to return to your home country and file papers in the Spanish Embassy there and then wait to see if you're granted it and then return (my Venezuelan wife had to do this). If you're not granted then you are out..punto...no refunds ciao pescao and back to making a $100 a year.

>I know of many English teachers who have had to >take that route, and while they didn't like it, >it was the only way to become LEGAL.

English teachers from England?

>There are far and few chances for Americans to >find a sweet job here that will allow them to >stay here legally as they want. I'm not saying >that it won't happen.
Believe me I don't deny anyone the right to try to come here and make a living, yes the job offers for anyone but very specifically skilled people are few and the temptation to come and work off the books is great...but...I'll just say it again I am worried by the number of posts that I have read seeking and giving advice on how to come and work illegally, I think people need to understand that they can get into BIG trouble and I was suggesting to MadridMan that allowing these posts might not be in the best interests of the forum and Spain itself. If you want to try to live and work here legally and are willing to face the fact that you might not be able to then good on ya, that's a mature attitude, saying that you don't care about the laws of the country that you wish to live in is showing disregard and disrespect...period!

>I can agree with some of what you are saying, >but the way you worded it, to me at least, makes >you come across as ANGRY. Correct me if I am >wrong, but are you hostile in any way with your >post?
Believe me I am in no way angry, why should I be, I have been messed around by the INS more times that I can count and have just finished a marathon with the Spanish authorities. I am sorry if you interpret forthrightness as anger.

>>As far as MadridMan is concerned, he wants to >come over here the right way and never once has >he told anyone to just DO IT, without having >them consider the consequences of their actions. >KUDOS, MadridMan.
I think Madrid Man stood up for himself just fine, of course he personally wants to do it the right way and I say kudos for that, I never named Madrid Man personally for posting "how to" tips and I would expect that he would have much more sense than to do that, my position was to suggest a disclaimer posted at the top of this forum, saying that this forum does not condone any information posted that might lead a forum member to break the law and lead to possible deportation. If ya'll think that that's too strong then so be it, I'll get back to reading the Classified's...
Tengas un buen dia,
monito

Please don't apologize for anything that you say in life. If you believe it, say it.

I didn't interpret it as anger all, so the above statement wasn't necessary at all. I just asked. I got my answer and now let's move on.

I won't be visiting this post from here on, so for me, it's a dead issue.

Shawn

Well you asked for my response, guess you didn't like it too much.
I don't apologize for having an opinion and voicing it, your perception of "ANGER" I guess is different to my perception of forthrightness.
I would be happy to kill this thread and as you're not going to read this then I'm just muttering in the dark to myself
Saludos,
monito
(half english, half american, half monkey, half mathematically illiterate)

My question is, if you love Spain enough to live there illegally, then is it really worth the risk should you get caught?

I mean, if I really loved a country, it would break my heart to be told I can't go there for a few years.

Anything worth doing...you may as well do it the right way. Think of the illegal immigrants in your own country. How are they doing?