The possibility of MM going to work in Spain has come up in a number of threads, so I thought I'd start one dedicated to it. Should he just go for it? Why? What about his salary? Family? Friends? What happens if he gets disappointed/disillusioned? How many other people have done it? What was the hardest thing about it? etc etc.

Here's my 2 cents worth,
No estamos locos,
que sabemos lo que queremos.
Vive la vida
igual que si fuera un suegno
Pero que nunca termina,
se pierde con el tiempo.
Y buscare, si buscare.

(Gracias a Ketama por la letra!)

Hi El Boqueron! Hahhaa.. I'm honored that you would start a thread on this topic. Thanks! (I think. )

Hey, I LOVE that Ketama song! It's one of my favorites from the Konfusion compilation CD! I recognized it immediately.

BUT NOW THAT YOU'VE BROUGHT IT UP.... As I said, the job that's on the table now is for a webdesigner, it's on the Costa del Sol (BUT NOT in the city of Málaga, but in the Málaga province) in a town where public transportation would necessitate buying a car (probably) and this could possibly be about 1/3 to 1/2 of one year's salary! OUCH!

I would have to rent a smallish apartment and most likely furnish it with new/used stuff as well as applicances (probably). This might well take another 1/3 of a year's salary.

The flight alone would likely cost about one month's salary. So what's left after all these move-over-there expenses??

And if it doesn't work out (maybe they think I'm just plain stupid about these things compared to what they expect!) I'll have to return to the US after having given up my VERY secure and fair-paying job that I have now.

I'm not too concerned about leaving friends behind, but leaving the parents/family would be a bit more difficult.

During my October trip to Madrid I hope to make/create/find/beg more "connections" that will help me find something there, IN MADRID.

Hear Ye! Hear Ye! ALL THOSE IN MADRID WHO HAVE WEB-RELATED COMPANIES!! HIRE MADRIDMAN! YOU WON'T BE SORRY!!!

If I could find work in Madrid at least I wouldn't need a car as the public transportation there is great!! I also wouldn't have to pay for accommodations as I could stay with friends for as long as I want (can you say, "Kato Kailen"?? AAAHH! The guest that would never leave!!).

Feel free to throw in your two cents. Plus, this kind of brainstorming could help us all realize the difficulties in moving to a foreign country with hopes & dreams to work/live there.

Saludos, MadridMan

Madridman,

Have you heard of Ya.com Internet Factory in Madrid? Maybe this could be of interest.

Well, I've lived in Andalucia for 5 years and making the decision to move here from the UK was one of my best ever!

However, it's not the lifestyle for everyone, by any means. I cannot emphasise that enough - some people don't like it at all. After all, you simply exchange one set of hassles for another!! Don't be beguiled by the weather / food / people ... whatever.

The important element is lifestyle. Would you be happy living somewhere where English is not the first language, where the mañana attitude is still prevalent, where you have to check your bank statement with a fine tooth comb ´cos they make so many errors ... etc.

Things didn't work out as I anticipated when I moved here, but so what? I could have stayed in the UK, earned lots more, had a big company car, swelling pension fund - and been as miserable as sin. Instead I live in a wonderful part of the world which continues to amaze and delight, and, while I'm not as well-off in material terms, I'm happier.

And isn't that what it's all about?

I say go for it MadridMan! Get a one room studio apartment, or a hut on the beach and a bike or moped. Keep money in an account so that you can fly home in an emergency (for the parents).

You won't be disillusioned. It will be the best time in your life.

PS: I know what it means to earn a low salary here in the US!

Latest News: None. I admire those who "Just Do It!" and never look back. However, when considering immigration, visas, and other details I don't message around.

Here are some VERY important questions that MUST be answered before I would consider the job on the Costa del Sol in Spain:

1) Work Visa
2) Salary
3) Contract/Agreement
***************

1) Work Visa: Nothing much has been said about the work visa. Employing mostly people from the European Union these people have a legal right to work almost anywhere in the EU - I, being from the USA, do not have this right. A work visa MUST be in place before arriving at the job. The old, "Just come over and we'll try to get your work visa" just isn't feasible. Imagine my giving up my secure, ok-paying job and 4 years of history with my current employer and then, after a few months the new employer in Spain tells me they can't get one, but that I can/should work illegally (i.e. work for the company, but without a work visa) for awhile until they can get the visa papers together. If caught working without the proper papers I can be deported and banned from Spain for 10 years. NOT something I want to happen to MadridMan!

2) Salary: I've been told the job pays a little more than 200,000 pesetas per month. I've heard from others that this amount is "bajo normal" or the normal low salary. Okay. I'm fine with this. BUT, the big question is is this amount BEFORE taxes and social security deductions or AFTER?? My understanding is that if this is the total AFTER all dedcutions then the pay is okay. However, if this total is BEFORE deductions then it would be VERY difficult to live with the remaining amount.

3) Contract/Agreement: Is there some possibility that after arriving in Spain that I'll only be kept for one month and then released? And what guarantee do I have, if any, that I'll be paid the amount quoted?

Comments? I think I'm missing an important #4, but will add it to my message later today.

Saludos, MadridMan

One of the reasons Spain's unemployment rate is so high is that it is 'overstated:' Many people are working 'off the books.' Some of this is to avoid the high taxes.

Most likely, if you are offered ESP 200.000 monthly by a regular employer, that will be 'before taxes.'

Have you looked into the possibility of enrolling in a graduate program at a Spanish University and working with a student visa? There are probably limits on how many hours you can work (like here in the US for foreign students) but that might be your 'foot in the door.'

Normally, you are not allowed to work while waiting for a 'work visa.' You are supposed to return to your own country to 'wait it out,' the only exception being scientific or professional specialties, a list of which you should be able to get from the Spanish Embassy.

A list can be had at the Spanish embassy, eh? Hmmm.. I wonder if it's updated enough to include internet professionals. Somehow, I doubt it, but will look into it.

As for the student visa idea I think I looked into this a couple years ago and found that one cannot work at all (at least legally).

I think you're probably right about the 200,000 pesetas is the salary BEFORE deductions/taxes. If this is the case, I'll pass up the offer. While I can live like a college student again, but not like a homeless person.

Saludos, MadridMan

Of course there is a possibility that you will be released after one month. In fact, I'm afraid this is likely to happen.

Currently, lots of companies hired their workers through "contratos por obras" that means they hire you just for the duration of the project. Then, they may hire you again if you are good but with a new contract so you won't get more rights.

As for not being paid the amount quoted, I don't know how can you be sure. I guess you just have to trust them!.

As for Eddie's post, I disagree with part of his comments:

Although it is true that the the unemployment rate is overstated is not worker's fault. It is employers' fault.

Nowadays it is really difficult to get a non-temporary job. Having an undefined time job means that employers should have to pay you compesation in case they fire you.

Also, you get extra money for each 5 years period you have been working in a company.

Both things mean it is better for employers to hire you for short periods of time (they use what we call "contratos basura" (rubbish contracts)).

I know for sure that unemployed people would be happy to pay taxes if they could get a job. It is employers that don't want to pay taxes and use all kind of tricks to avoid them.

Another situation that make some people work 'off the books' is when you are really old and no one wants to hire you. In that case, you would take any job, even without a contract.

To sum up, the employment issue in Spain is not so easy. As taxi drivers, you won't believe how many tricks employers use so as not to pay taxes.

Saludos,

Antonio

Hey, Antonio; it's not just in Spain: Many U.S. employers fill their ranks with 'temps:'
1. so they can avoid having to pay people during their 'off' seasons, and
2. to get out of paying the employer share of employment taxes (social security, unemployment insurance, etc.) and employee health and vacation benefits.

That's the disgrace of the current work situation everywhere. Even in Japan, job security is a thing of the past. It's a shame, but that's the way it is.

As for me: I fit your description 'really old,' and no one wants to hire me so I just don't 'sweat' these things any more.

[This message has been edited by Eddie (edited 06-20-2000).]