Caliblasco, have you ever talked to any of the relatives of those killed (21) in the Hipercor (shopping centre) bombings? http://clientes.vianetworks.es/personal/angelberto/hipercor.htm

Have you ever talked to Irene Villa who lost her legs at 12?http://clientes.vianetworks.es/personal/angelberto/irene.htm

Have you ever talked to the parents of any of the following children?

ALFREDO AGUIRRE BELASCOAIN/ 1985. Tenía 14 años cuando una bomba-trampa colocada en un portal en Pamplona sesgó su vida.

DANIEL GARRIDO VELASCO/ 1986. Murió en San Sebastián al estallar una bomba colocada en el techo del automóvil en el que viajaba con sus padres, que también perdieron la vida. Tenía 16 años.

SONIA CABRERIZO MÁRMOL/ 1987. Víctima, con 15 años, del atentado de Hipercor (Barcelona).

SUSANA CABRERIZO MÁRMOL/ 1987. Hermana de la anterior, de 13 años, murió en la misma explosión.

SILVIA VICENTE MANZANARES/ 1987. Murió con 13 años, también en Hipercor, el atentado, hasta ahora, más sangriento en el historial de ETA: 21 muertos.

JORGE VICENTE MANZANARES/ 1987. Hermano de la anterior, tenía nueve años. El coche bomba de Hipercor se cobró la vida de cuatro niños.

SILVIA PINO FERNÁNDEZ/ 1987. Ella, con siete años, y sus padres fallecieron en el atentado contra la casa cuartel de la Guardia Civil de Zaragoza.

SILVIA BALLARÍN GAY/ 1987. Con seis años, y junto a su padre, murió en el mismo atentado que la anterior.

ROCÍO CAPILLA FRANCO/ 1987. Otra víctima de la explosión en Zaragoza.Tenía 12 años.

ESTHER BARRERA ALCARAZ/ 1987. De tres años e hija de un guardia civil del acuartelamiento zaragozano.

JULIA BARRERA ALCARAZ/ 1987. Hermana gemela de la anterior.Cinco niños fallecieron en Zaragoza.

LUIS DELGADO VILLALONGA/ 1988. Murió en Madrid, con tres años, como consecuencia de las heridas sufridas en la explosión de un coche bomba.

MARÍA DEL CORO VILLAMUDRIA/ 1991. Murió, con 17 años, tras la explosión de un artefacto adosado a los bajos del coche de su padre en San Sebastián.

MARÍA CRISTINA ROSA MUÑOZ/ 1991. 14 años. Jugaba en el patio interior de la casa cuartel en Vic (Barcelona) cuando un coche bomba hizo explosión.

MARÍA DOLORES QUESADA ARRAQUE/ 1991. También asesinada en Vic.Tenía ocho años.

ANA CRISTINA PORRAS LÓPEZ/ 1991. Jugaba con las anteriores en el patio del cuartel. Tenía 10 años.

FRANCISCO DÍAZ/ 1991. Murió en Vic con 17 años.

VANESA RUIZ LARA/ 1991. Quinto menor fallecido en la explosión de Vic, cuando tenía 11 años.

FABIO MORENO ALSA/ 1991. Un artefacto colocado en el coche de su padre en Erandio (Vizcaya) sesgó su vida con dos años.

SILVIA MARTÍNEZ/ 2002. Seis años, asesinada el domingo en Santa Pola (Alicante).

Have you ever talked to any of the people in the basque country that have to be permanently protected by bodyguards (around 1.000, none of them are "oppresed" basque nationalists)?
www.bastaya.org

Ignacio, i want to see you defending your statements openly in public, and not hiding in the anonimity of the internet. Though i see you live in Madrid where freedom of speech and democracy do actually exist; try asking those hundreds of politicians (PP and PSOE) and journalists whose life is in danger how is freedom working in your much loved streets of Bilbao and San Sebastián?
http://www.foroermua.com/memointro.asp

Now, we can discuss history anytime you want.

Joselito

You mean the affected by the police not wanting to evacuate the centre, although ETA warned in advance of the bombing?

You can also ask the police responsibles in case they have not taken their own lifes.

That has to be the most cold hearted hateful thing that you have ever said. That was hateful even for you, Ignacio. You are truly poisoned with hate.

Have to agree with Desert Dweller,

That isn't up to par with your usual convoluted reasoning Ignacio. Something must be lost in the translation.

Let's blame the police when a terrorist group plants a bomb in a public place? The police are being irresponsible by not knuckling under to terrorist? We are worlds apart my friend. I can't believe you're sounding like a sociopath.

The kind of response that makes me feel embarrassed for being basque like that kind of person.

NO, terrorits are responsible for planting a bomb and calling (meaning, so, no lifes taken).

Police is responsible for knowing a place is about to be bombed and not evacuate for whatever reason.

If you go to a place where they are bombing a building for constrution purposes, for example, and the workers don't warn you that you can not enter, and you die inside?

Whose is the fault? The one who put the dynamite or the ones who knew it was going to explode and didn't warn you as it was their duty?

How would you have felt if the police had known with half an hour in advance the twin towers crash, and they hadn't evacuated the people being able to do so?

If I were their family I would have sued them to the last.

Obviously planting bombs is wrong, however you look at it, but if the police were informed that there was a bomb and failed to evacuate the area then they too are at fault.

ETA gives the police 30 minutes notice normally to a newspaper or news agency. It is not like it is 2 or 3 hours! 30 minutes from the time of the phone call until you can respond and evacuate does not leave a lot of time. ETA is also vague sometimes when it comes to disclosing the location of the bombs. Can't blame the police most of the time. Don't give ETA one bit of credit as "Humane" for giving notice.......a 5 year old girl was injured in the last series of bombs........The only statement that made was that they are in fact a INHUMANE terrorist organization.

The world turned upside-down. If I kick you, blame on you for not removing your leg????

Fernando

deibid: Sorry about the novato comment...I was referring to your time as a MM member, not to your intellect and passion on this topic. No offense meant, amigo.

By the way, I'll never be a Californian. I just moved here ten years ago...prior to that I lived in Spain. However, if I apply your logic, I suppose I'm a Spaniard since I lived there, as I'm a Californian for living here... That's actually kind of cool...

I'm not offended by anything posted here, and my purpose is not to propogate and political agenda, just to stimulate debate. According to Fernando's latest post, it doesn't seem to be working. That's just Fernando being Fernando, though.

Since I'll never meet most of you, I have neither the time nor energy to devote to getting heated over something someone might say about me. Usually I post my thoughts and periodically, like with this thread, I need a little diversion and get more involved than normal. I enjoy reading the varying opinions on this board and frankly wish that more would share what they think. I'm afraid, however, that since many don't know both sides, or are so indoctrinated to one or the other, they won't post for fear of being dragged through the mud. I don't have that problem. Drag away [Fernando]:

Monsieur Fernando wrote: Wow. That's a pretty strong statement. Sympathize? ETA's objectives? Look a little harder and you'll find posts written by me that denounce terrorism. I would say at the same time, though, that since "government" won't dialogue with "terrorists" that these "terrorists" probably have resigned themselves that "terror" is their only avenue left to have their grievances heard. Maybe they should post on MM and get their feelings out.

Please note that in the last paragraph that by stating that governments won't negotiate with terrorists, I in no way imply that they should, or that terrorists should continue to sow terror. Again, simply for the sake of trying to understand why people do what they do, I offer that as a possible explanation. This no more makes me an etarra than if I step into Eroski and ask "Does anyone have any titadyne?"

deibid: As for "have I ever" it looks like we have more in common than we thought, as I have "people on both sides" in my family as well. I reiterate my purpose as simply putting both sides out there. Nowhere in my profile have I ever asked anyone to agree with me.

It is a little foolish to not try to get inside the mind of the purported killer to understand the genesis of his/her propensity to kill, opting instead for a convenient societal label that makes one feel good since it reduces the conflict to a "no gray area" black and white/right vs. wrong conflict.

To polarize the ideology as such is dangerous, as by doing so you must admit that one side is only capable of injustice, void of any virtue, and the other only acts in a virtuous way, never straying from the path of that which is just. I would hope that we could both agree that each side, no matter whether we agree 100% or not with their ideology, is not above a little virtue/a little vice.

And now for the closer from Fernando's keyboard:

Was your grandfather castellano or catalan?