Steven77: Very well put. Some people are always looking back and "hanging on to use to be." There is a reason that an automotive engineer designs a car so that the windsheild is 100 times larger than the rear view mirror. He wants you to be looking forward 100 times more than looking back. My mother's own ancestors the Cherokee Indian tribe, were forcefully moved from their land in the southern part of the US. None of the tribal members are rehashing something that happened 150 years ago and cannot be changed now. We look forward, and move on, make the laws at hand work to our advantage. The majority of the Basque are hardworking peace loving people that have adapted to the life at hand. The ETA is now nothing more than a band of punks that operate in the shadows and hope that nobody finds out who they are.

Desert Dweller,

My ancestors were also in the Trail of Tears. They were settled in Western Kentucky.

I have just come back for a 5-day trip in France and I found it very illustrating. Some people should really move around to keep things in perspective.

France is a centralist republic, which means that its territories have not any kind of autonomy. The state is the center of the democracy.

The Basque Country has never been independent (Navarre was for centuries, the Basque Country was another territory of Castilian Kingdom from its born) nor has never been an occupied territory or a colony (opposite to the US, which was a colony of Britain).

A hundred years ago basque nationalism was born. During this time, basque nationalists invented a flag (which is equal as UK flag with basque typical colors) and managed to exterminate any cultural diversity found on the basque language (which was composed by dozens of basque dialects, almost one in every valley). Basque nationalism was officially pursued by Franco's Dictatorship though he granted the Basque Country a main industrial prominence in Spain. ETA was born at first to fight the dictatorship, though it evolved to a cruel terrorist band in the last years of the dictatorship.

With the beginning of spanish democracy in 1978 a decentralization started, and the Basque Country was granted the status of an autonomous community in our Constitution (1978) and its "Estatuto de Autonomía" (1978). For the last 26 years consecutive spanish governments deepened in autonomism. Now most decissions are taken in the Basque Parlament, which can also dictate almost all kind of laws, concerning subjects like education, fiscality, health care, traffic regulation, infrastructure building,... They have also an own police.

The only subjects specific of the central government are defense (army), airports and seaports, and the public health system. Nowadays, the Basque Country has the deepest autonomy of all Europe, no matter there are other regions which have more deeper historical reasons to have an autonomous status (länder in Germany, regions of France like Burgundy, former kingdoms of Italy like Naples or Venetia, Wales and Scotland,...).

The problem is that without a permanent claim for more autonomy is the main argue for nationalists in Spain, and the limit for autonomy has been reached.

ETA is not a liberation movement and has nothing to do with the independence of USA:

• The Basque Country is not a colony nor has never been occupied. Its citizens have the same rights as any other citizen in Spain.
• The Basque Country has a deep and ample autonomy with an own parlament, government and judge system.
• ETA has not the democratic legitimation to fight for independence. Its support is, in the best case, a 20%.
• ETA is not only trying to impose independence in the Basque Country, but the annexion of neighbour territories and the constitution of a marxist-leninist regimen in which basic rights would not be respected. And it's doing it by violent, criminal and cruel ways directed towards spanish authorities and their own fellow citizens.

Current basque nationalists seek independence not only of the historical basque provinces (Guipúzcoa and Vizcaya) but other territories like Alava (which was integered in the Basque Autonomy in 1978 due to historical ties with the other basque provinces), the Condado de Treviño (a territory which has never been part of the Basque Country), Navarre (a neighbour region) and the french Department of Western Pyrenees. Support for independence in these regions is testimonial, but basque nationalists try to impose their independence from France and Spain nevertheless.
Conclusion: The Basque Country has a deep autonomy from the central power in Spain, basques have their rights recognized and respected in our constitution and our laws. Basques agreed their former status as an autonomy community in 1978 by massively voting for the Constitution and their "Estatuto de Autonomía" (statute of autonomy). Nationalists can defend their political positions democraticly and peacefully.

But ETA tries to impose their alleged objectives disregarding what basques think, by violent and criminal means, and with the side purpose of making non-nationalist basques to emigrate from the Basque Country in order to achieve a kind of "idological cleansing".

Fernando

Absolutely false all from the third paragraph on.

Basque separatism has existed since we were invaded centuries ago. Nationalism existed since the beginning of the vasque as a nation, because that's what we are.

Navarra has been independent until it was invaded by Spain 500 years ago.

The rest is just as false as the commented.

Fernando, you are just like Aznar. No matter how proofs are brough to show you're lying you keep all the same telling the same tale and culd convince somebody unaware of your behaviour.

The Basque Country has never been invaded.

Navarre has never been invaded by Spain. It was annexed to the Castilian Kingdom in 1515. It existed as an independent kingdom from 852 to 1515 a.C.

I'm eager to read your arguments if you have any (I doubt it).

Fernando

PD: Thanks for comparing me with Aznar, I think he has been the best governor in centuries.

Nice try, Fernando. We have debated this a hundred times and a hundred times I have unveiled your lies.

Do I need to do it again or you are just bold enough to spread that bullsh*t again when you know I am connecting very few because I am getting too stressed?

If anyone wants info on Navarra kingdom, he can make a quick search in this forum, where I have found 87 entries on Navarra, many of them on it's history , at least 10 by me (and unfortunately by you).

Here are just some:

Just one

In Spanish

Another

A thread with a book on it\'s history

thread

You won't steal my time by now, don't try.

For those who don't want to read your lies too, here is a link (in english to a encyclopedia):

Encyclopedia: History of Navarra, the Ba...asion by Spain.

The History of the kingdom and it\'s struggle amid Castilla (would be Spain) and France.

Sorry for the misappropriation of quote credit, Pinguino...honest mistake...as for respecting my intellect, I'm flattered...as for my sense of humor, you're one better than my wife. When I'm in Florida, I owe you a "bebida."

BTW: I've also spent time amongst the "oaks" in Gernika...both the tronco and the new arbola. I've lived amongst the Basques and have married one [thank God...that means roast lamb dinner on a regular basis!] How fortunate we both have been...

From deibid:
Check out some of my other close to 1500 posts...you obviously do not know who I am or what my experience has been, novato.

I've had Basques, on a regular basis, comment to me that I know more about their history than they do. I'm no run-of-the-mill American with a keyboard. Do I have to give you street addresses and dates to "prove myself worthy" of commenting here? Ever hung out on c/San Francisco with the political riff-raff and asked what they think? Ever have a discussion with someone who gets their news from a source other than El Pais? I think I have both sides, amigo.

Speaking of El Pais, to equate the horror perpetrated against the Basques with the Gallego experience during the dictadura/dictablanda is sheer heresy. How many gallegos spent time in prison or were executed for their anti-opression cultural conservation rhetoric? How many Basques were part of Franco's ruling elite? Would adding both those numbers give you a sum of zero?

Since "el caudillo" was from Ferrol, the gallegos were hardly "repressed" as you put it. What did Franco do, squelch using the term "Sant Yago" and change the name to "Santiago?" Oooooh...help! help! I'm being repressed!

Ever sat down with mothers of men in prison for "crimes" against the state and listened to their stories? These are not etarras, they're kids who ended up in the wrong place at the right time and because their surname has a "tx" in it, they're held without trial as long as "deemed necessary" by the government. Any "Ferreiros" in political prison in their "own" country?

Desert Dweller: The American Revolutionaries would've operated behind masks as well had they lived in the days of surveillance and CNN. A few well-placed musket shots to the "ringleaders" as seen on surveillance may have thwarted [or at least postponed] the American Revolution. To draw parallels is to do just that: draw parallels. It is not to condone or agree with either or both. Relax...no one will think any lesser of you. I won't, anyway...

Please,man, don't get so pissed off at me.
I have not been disrespectful to you and I'm no 'novato', I have read your posts. Tranquilo, hombre.

And I repeat all I said the other day, word by word.
You have an idealistic view of the basque situation and you are talking about stories from Franco dictatorship that have nothing to do with today's actual situation.
And speaking of Franco, please! all democratic Spain was oppresed during his dictatorship. It is really offending that you deny that the Galegos were oppressed as well. Franco was a fascist dictator, and YES, many galegos were imprisoned or executed during his regime. How naive!

And yes, you are quite nicely sitting in front of your computer in California instead of suffering every day the 'conflict'.
I never doubted your knowledge of the Basque Country, you don't need to give any street address, I understand that you may have had some txikitos aroud Somera street and you may even know bar Kantabriko and have tasted some pintxos at Victor Montes.
That's not the issue.

When you ask me if 'I ever have...' you are doing the very same thing that you acuse me of. Yes, I have 'ever' because I have both sides IN MY FAMILY. I have relatives who are menaced by ETA and have to exile to Mexico. I have relatives who support ETA and go to demonstrations and feel very happy everytime those 'cabrones' kill a poor policeman. I fortunately don't have any ETA member in my family, but I have friends who do have one. Oh! and I don't read El Pais, I don't care about waht you say about it.

I'm sorry, CaliBasco, but I'm a native Basque and you'll always be a Californian, please don't try to give me lessons, I'm grown up.

Well, I give you my hand and I apologize if I offended you anytime, but I can't change my mind about this.

I'd like to respond to Ignacio about WHAT EXACTLY we are doing in Iraq. Saddam Hussein is responsible for the deaths of over 500,000 Iraqi's and Kurds(That we know of). We went in to take out a tyranical and Mass Murderer leader who had no business leading a nation. No, we have not found any "Weapons of Mass Destruction" but we were still justified in taking this leader out of power. THE INSURGENTS......LET ME REPEAT.......THE INSURGENTS are killing 99% of the innocent Iraqi people, not the American Forces. Yes, a friendly is a mistaken casulaty occasionally, but it is a WAR ZONE and no one is completly safe in a war zone. The U.S. and several other countries have began reopening Schools, Hospitals, Electrical and water plants and trying to rebuild their infrastructure so that the Iraqi people can live in a civilized way and not in bombed out homes with no running water or power. We are not conquerers BECASUE WE INTEND TO LEAVE and leave the country in a lot better shape than we found it. How is the U.S. the bad guys??

Cali the problem is that I have been here during the last 3 years and I have readen many of your posts to perfectly know that you sympathize with basque nationalists and ETA's objectives.

Anyway, it is a common leit-motiv among nationalists to state that Franco's Dictatorship was a regime against catalonian or basques exclusively.

As a dictator, he prosecuted all his political opposition and even part of his political allies. He obviously repressed nationalists because their political ideology was opposite in many ways to his. The use of any language other than spanish (castilian) was officially forbidden (though many people still used their local languages).

And before you call me fascist and make a joke on the press and books I read and the TV I watch (like you have done before in this board) let me tell you that one of my grandfathers was imprisoned in a concentration camp by Franco for four years.

Ignacio: I can't counterargue your inexistent arguments because you have quoted yourself... If you use yourself as a source of "objective" information don't expect me to give you any credit sorry...

Fernando