I know perfectly well the amount that affects my driving, I am very good at perceiving when I am not alright (many people don't), what I don't ever have a clue on is wether I am under that exagerately low limit they impose, which disturbs me when I fancy a beer or want to have some wine with my meal and then I have to drive, because I may be under that super-strict limit but, what if I don't? So, many times, I can not have it, just in case ...

I hate drunken drivers, but what must be done to reduce its number is NOT lowering the limits so that those who are not even tipsy can be fined, but having heavy punishment (we do) and increasing controls to detect the REAL drunken people (no matter that there are many by now).

It's no help to fine drivers who are not drunk.

Voy a escribirlo en castellano pq así lo hago más rápido.

Cuando hablamos del impacto que tiene una circunstancia sobre una situación dada no podemos hablar de impactos individuales, del tipo de yo conozco a un africano que estudia mucho y trabaja más, o de que yo conozco a un magrebí que es magnífico y se lleva bien con todo el mundo. El impacto global de esta masiva inmigración es extremadamente negativo por mucho que haya gente que quiera sacar individualidades de bondades y buenos comportamientos de extranjeros en España.

Y es muy negativo por cuanto en TODOS, repito, en TODOS los barrios de Espaa donde existe una concentración relativamente importante de no-europeos EXISTE un grave malestar entre la población autoctona y la inmigrante. Situcación que se está dando en todas las ciudaddes grandes de España en determinados barrios (Lavapiés, Ruzafa, El Raval, Vicalvaro, ....) y en muchos suburbios de las grandes capitales europeas (incluidas Dinamarca, donde hace 1 mes, unos jóvenes musulmanes apuñalaro y mataron a un joven turista ingles).

Por tanto, a mí y a cualquier persona con un mínimo de inteligencia le da igual que me podais sacar que el 70% de los inmigrantes en un barrio son gente honesta y trabajadora (tambien habría que ver eso pq me han contado cada cosas que...) si en esos barrios hay LATIN kINGS, bandas de pegamento, magrebíes vendiendo hachís delante de ancianos y niños, magrebíes acosando a viandantes, reyertas, atracos a punta de navaja, etc. Sí, el 10-15 % de los extranjeros en Lavapiés son malos y el 85% restantes son honestos,...¿pero Y QUÉ???.

Qué mas da que eso sea así si ese 15% está arruinando la convivencia del 100% de los habitantes de ese barrio. Hace unos meses en Telemadrid llevaron a españoles habitantes del barrio de Lavapiés, quisieron hacer un programa sobre la situación del barrio, pues imagínate el público aplaudía de manera exacerbada el momento en que se hablaba de que los menores marroquíes habían detrozado el barrio, que ya no se estaba segura, que habían apaleado a ancianos, etc...

Pues bien, esa es la realidad, yo soy consciente de que la mayoría de los inmigrantes son trabajajores y honestos, pero no es ese el indicativo de la buena convivencia, el indicativo de la buena convivencia es precisamente la AUSENCIA de conflictos, Y en todos los barrios con minorías extranjeras (generalmente extraeuropeas) los conflictos EXISTEN y de manera muy grave, y no sólo en España sino EN TODOS Los países de Europa, desde España, Italia, Francia, Alemania, Inglaterra, Dinamarca, Suecia (yo fui atracado por 2 "moros" en Estocolmo para q veas que esto está pasando en media Europa).

Y al margen de que la mayoría de los trabajadores inmigrantes sean buenos trabajadores, qué me dices del hecho de que en 3 años nos hayan metido en Madrid a 800.000!!!!!!. ¿No afecta eso en nada a la identidad cultural, social, e incluso racial que todo pueblo del mundo tiene derecho a mantener??????. POr qué los japoneses, chinos, y senegaleses son y van a ser 100% homogeneos en cultural, religion y raza y los europeos nos vamos a convertir en un estúpido crisol de multiestupidez con multiples razas, religiones, culturas, etc que LO ÚNICO QUE VAN A A CREAR ES PROBLEMAS A LAS SOCIEDADES AUTÓCTONAS?. ¿estás a favor de ello o qué?.

Me parece una verguenza el tema de la masiva inmigración; madrid está cambiando, y cambia para mucho peor, ya somos la ciudad de Europa con las más altas tasas de homicidios (gracias a los inmigrantes), robos (gracias a los inmigrantes), etc.

Y además hay que jod.... con esa apología del mestizaje que se hace con revistas del tipo de Madrid Mestizo. ¿Qué pasa?, no se puede estar a gusto de ser blanco en mi país o qué?. Es símbolo de mi cultura, de mi HIstoria, de mis ancestros y de la identidad de mi país. Ahora vienen unos cuandos amerindios del fin del mundo a contarnos que lo que mola es el madrid mestizo...es decir, menos blancos, y más cualesquiera otras mezcolanzas de razas sin identidad.

Noticia de hoy: español asesinado por 4 colombianos porque el español se quería casar con una colombiana. Menuda civilización nos traen estos jod**** """""""""hispanos"""""""

http://www.lasprovincias.es/valencia/edicion/prensa/noticias/Sucesos/200311/07/VAL-SUC-090.html

Ahí la podeis leer entera.

ERT:

I agree mainly to your description of the situation in those neighbourhoods, in the solution (reduce inmigration a lot) and even (up to a point, in the causes).

What we don't agree in is in the ultimate case. It is true, in my opinion, that the inmigration we're having brings these problems, but what I mean is that we could select better inmigrants, so that almost no criminal came, and, of course you're right that 800.000 / 1.000.000 of them in Madrid are an overwheling load for a city of (previously) 4.000.000.

But what I am saying also is that this is not a racial issue, but an educational one. An inmigrant is not good or bad because of the colour of his/her skin, but because of his behaviour, which comes from his education.

And we could select better which countries we bring people from, and which kind of people within those countries, regardless of race, just because of their behaviour as a group. And, of course, accept amounts of inmigrants that the country and the labour market can handle.

So We agree that 800.000/1.000.000 of immigrants in a previous 4.000.000 habitants is extremely excesive. Considering the fact that there is a 1, 1.5 million of ederly madrileños and that immigrants have much higher natality, what is your opinion for the future?. In 20 years, when the old madrileños have died, suddenly the amount of non-ethnic Spaniards would be like 40,50% of the total population. Plus high natality in inmigrants and more inmigration and very low natatity in Spaniards means this: THEY HAVE KICK OUT OF OUR CITY AND IN THE END OF OUR COUNTRY. And don´t try to start a discourse that if We educate them well, and blah, blah. Yes, We can educate many of them well, but tons of them will form gangs, latin kings, bandas del pegamento, and no body could live in Madrid. This scenario would be in 20 or 30 years. This will happen, don´t you mind, do you??.

It this not the replacement of an indigenous autoctonous habitants of a society or country by foreing elements (muslims, southamericans, africans). Can any inteligent people think this is good?. All I say in most Madrid streets is full of non-spaniards. No ederly Spaniard can feel secure in his neighbourhood when there are tons of magrebies and gangs robbing and selling hachis in front of their houses.

You said also this:
"But what I am saying also is that this is not a racial issue, but an educational one. An inmigrant is not good or bad because of the colour of his/her skin, but because of his behaviour, which comes from his education."

Ask the many Americans in this forum what they think about this and how is the situation. At the begining no body said that this or that race was the responsible of their unsuccess. Everybody talked that it was a problem of "poverty and ausence of educacion". There were no racial issues analyzing it. But after millions and millions dollars spent in minorities (RACIAL MINORITIES) not much have been dond. The same racial minorities (blacks and the socalled """"latinos"""") are the bottom of education and behaviour. So, your good desires that says that with good educaction this will be different is another LIE because FACST in the US has shown otherwhise. Who are still the ones that belong to the thousands and thousands of gangs all accross the US, killing, stealing, drugs, etc????. Afroamericans, and the socalled """"latinos""" (it would be better to call them "indios" because basically that is what they are). So...good desires confront with FACTS, and reality is ALWAYS much worst than inicial desires.

I think that inmigrants tend to merge and absorb the local culture, and that they do it completely in one or two generations, as far as they are a minority and don't join in (or are not forced to) "ghettos", that become a reduced version of their country, like the turkish in Germany. The germans had so many problems that they paid them if they went back to Turkey.

So, a reduced number of inmigrants are easily integrated by a society. It helps a lot that these people have a work and are legal (needs of a qualified inmigration, again), because poverty and discrimination help people decide commit crimes.

Well, at last you have relalized that immigrant will make guettos and even those that are pseudo integrated (turks in Germany) are still seen by Germans as non-truly germans and not the representant of them.

So, everything are problems, what are the benefits then?, economics?. Is that all?. All is about econocmics (paying us our pensions,...)?. They are going to ruin many things. You don´t believe it right now but in 20 years you will relize that what I´m saying is hard but rememeber just 3 years ago when most people in the streets was in favor of giving free papers to those that went to the churches and started "huelgas de hambre". In 20 or 30 the ethnic europeans will be so mad about this issue that nothing could be done to solve it and that everything will be great problems for the ethnic europeans.

I am always impressed when there are tv specials about the good or bad integration of the immigrants in their spanish neighbourhoods. And they talk about the difficulty of finding a job (normal, they came here knowing they were illegal and wouldn´t find a job; they talk about the difficulty in finding a house to live in,...normal they live 20 people in the same house so the spanish owner of the flat would never again let it to foreigners, and many other things.) But it is curious that in those special reports on tv they don´t ask the Spaniards about the influence of the immigrants in the neighbourhoods, about the violence they have bring, the incivic behaviour in the comunities of vecinos and in the parks, the gangs, the impossibility of girls until 18 to come now late because there are many "Mooors in the streets, and so on. No, they don´t talk about it...they talk about the pobrecitos inmigrantes... and forget about the pobrecitos españoles, who are the ones that have the right to say Yes ot NO in their neighbourhoods.

I think the relationship or correlation drawn here between immigration and crime is a spurious one. Canada is an immigrant society and takes in large numbers of people from different countries every year. I think the murder rate is about 2.5 per 100,000. Columbia which was colonized by the Spanish, and like Argentina there has not been a great deal of intermarrying with the indigenous population, the murder rate is about 75 per 100,000.

The following 3 paragraphs are from this site.
Toronto
http://www.ssz.or.jp/yukotoshi/en/et02.html

“There are more than 90 different ethnic groups and approximately 80 languages spoken in the Toronto CMA. One-quarter of Toronto's population speaks a language other than English or French at home. One of Toronto's largest ethnic groups, which continues to grow, is Chinese. In 1999, over 15,000 people immigrated to the City of Toronto from China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. Outside of English, the largest mother tongue language groups in the Toronto CMA are Chinese(286,460), Italian(202,440), Portuguese(107,795), Polish(79,620), and Spanish(72,795).
In the past five years, immigrants have been landing in the Toronto CMA at a rate of 65,000 to 97,000 a year. In 1999, 81,000 new people arrived in the Toronto CMA. Toronto is the destination of choice for immigrants to Canada. In 1999, 43 percent of all immigrants to Canada chose Toronto, compared to Vancouver(15 percent) and Montreal(12 percent). Thirty-nine percent of Toronto's population is considered to be immigrant, higher than all major Canadian cities, including Vancouver(30 percent) and Hamilton(24 percent).
The City of Toronto's top ten source countries of immigrants (based on country of birth) in 1999 were: China, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Iran, The Republic of Korea, The Philippines, Russia, Ukraine and Jamaica. Ontario's top source country for "business" immigrants in 1999 was China (including Hong Kong), followed by South Korea, Iran and Pakistan.”

Toronto is considered to be one of the safest cities in the world. Incidentally a number of years back Canadians were polled whether they thought crime was increasing and the majority thought it was escalating out of control. Crime rates were actually decreasing but Canadians were watching more television and this contributed to the perception.

I’ve been traveling to and at times living in Spain for over 30 years. It’s our favorite country and it has been our only overseas vacation destination in the last 10 years. We travel a lot to other places for business or conferences and we were in Africa for a few months last year but Spain is where we go to get away. Much of what attracts us has been the way Spain has changed over the past 30 years. I ate some of the best food in the world this trip and 30 years ago this level of cooking was not available. That’s just one example.

We are just back from Spain and spent about a week in Madrid which I gather from posts here is the crime hot spot. I was in the Puerta del Sol and the metro a lot and walked through La Latina and areas where there were a lot of Latino groups--one can usually tell as there are signs for package delivery services back to Ecuador or Peru. Also my children are playground addicts and so we stopped in all these areas to play and they met Dominican and Columbian kids. No one bothered us or tried to rob us. We did make a mistake in staying at the Hostal Macarena for 2 days but that is another story. I did see in el Pais that murders this year were high and that many were gang murders among foreigners. This is a very common pattern among immigrant groups.

I live in Providence in the northeast US and about 8 years ago there was a large influx of Russians and crime did increase very fast. Suspicions were that among the average Russian immigrants were the hardened criminals from Odessa and they did some outrageous things. In a block radius from where I lived at the time at least 4 3 story homes got cleaned out. The normal pattern is to break in one apartment. These thieves hit every floor of each house in teams. A guy around the corner was watching football and someone ran into the house and stole his TV. A lady across the street got conned into letting a couple in and they cleaned her out. The list goes on. But this crime spree was very temporary. These people were criminals and it took a while to catch them and now crime has gone down. The point is that there are probably criminals among the new immigrant groups in Madrid and they need to be caught. I would say 15% is too high for troublemakers in an ethnic group and the number is probably less than 10%. But they can scare you.

Today 2 minutes from where I live is a large African/African American neighborhood. We are surrounded by Russian immigrants. Dominicans and Columbians as well as Mexicans, Guatemalans, El Salvadorians and various other Latinos are 5 minutes away in every direction by car. I feel very safe and I go out of my way to eat in the Latino neighborhoods. This is at night and I take my twins who are 4.

I also spend a good part of the year in New York City which is a great cosmopolitan city where on the streets you hardly ever hear English spoken. Immigration has made it a great city and this is not only the immigration of the past but the immigration going on right now. It really is a marvel to watch and fun to participate in.

I lived In Spain under Franco not as a Spaniard but as an observer. I also lived for a long period in Portugal and saw the impact that Salazar had on Portuguese culture. It was a stifling period. Incidentally I think Spanish cinema is brilliantly trying to deal with this conflict between an insular world view that is a residual holdover from fascism and the world of expanding horizons that is now opening up for Spain. This summer the New York Times did a feature on Catalan cooking and how it was the new cutting edge cuisine.

So Spanish culture is changing very quickly and is incorporating new elements. In 20 years it will not be a cultural form that is that similar to the old Franco one but it will be based on elements that are indigenous. It will still be Spanish culture but it will be dynamic and incorporate different cultural and ethnic elements. If you use New York and Toronto as examples Madrid will be a very exciting place in 20 years. I would agree with Booklady here. It already is if you stay away from the tourist haunts around the Plaza Mayor.

Excellent post, Mersan, your reasoned post drew me back. What you said is exactly what will most likely happen in time,
Immigration is shocking to Spain because of the speed in which it is happening, and its insularity. From the time of the Civil war until the death of Franco, Spain was a very homogenous population, and until very recently it had remained so. The loss of this homogeneity, this sudden change, is causing serious concerns among the population.

I don't believe, it is all racism.

I believe it is the building of economic and to some extent political pressures on an already strained infrastructure. Can the Spanish economy assimilate these incoming workers without displacement of indigineous workers? Can the local infrastucture of housing and health services meet the needs of the incoming population? Are there enough schools for the children?

Very serious questions. Nevertheless, like you, I believe that 20 years down the road that Spain will be a better place because of this influx of immigrants. According to WHO statistics all of Europe is aging and not replacing its populace to a sustainable degree. Spain is one of those countries, that unless they increase rthe number of births in the next twenty years will have to seek out immigrants to man the jobs they vacated when they retire. Someone has to make the churros we all love!

ERT you speak very passionately regarding your feelings of immigrants in your country. I know of one organization here in the United States that would welcome you with open arms...it's called the Ku Klux Klan! Your opinions on race, immigration and mixing of the races fit right in with their points of view.

Frankly Señor, I find it very offensive that you think that immigrants are destroying your country. There are still some white Americans that share you point of view, believing that if you're not white then obiviously you are deficient, uneducated, sub-moral and uncultured!

Bad people don't only come in dark colors. And we don't all belong to gangs, sell and use illegal drugs or live in ghettos. After the civil rights movement of the 1960's brought about changes in the US 'white America' was scared to death that Blacks were going to overun their towns and take over. Nowadays they're saying that about Latinos, because we are the largest minority in the US, over 35,000,000, 13% of the American population of over 285,000,000; nearly 70% being white. Now, I know that we Latinos are quite prolific and overly sexed but it's going to take alot of f*$%ing on our part to overrun white America in 20 years! Pardon my French!

I have no doubt that you have problems in Madrid and the rest of Spain and all of Europe. Well my friend, it's like that for the rest of the world. We're no longer protected by vast seas and mountains or Great Walls to keep invaders out! In the early part of the 20th Century the United States experienced a vast amount of immigration from Europe to the point that Americans were worried that the dregs of Europe were going to fill streets of America. In the East coast it was the Irish and Italians that felt the descrimination. There were even signs posted in front of business doors saying No Irish or dogs allowed in this establishment! Do you want to know why there are so few Spaniards living in the US? It's simple really, why go to a country that's totally foreign in culture and language when there is a whole other continent and countries in the New World that speaks Spanish and with similar culture. They emigrated to Mexico, Cuba and South America. Now, you are experiencing the reversal. Matador made a very good observation regarding immigration paths...that people of former colonies are returning to Europe. England has the Indians/Pakastanies, South Africans and West Indians. France has the North Africans, and Spain has the Latin Americans. Did Spain think that after it lost it's Empire it would sever it's ties to Latin America, hardly!

Here in the US we have gang problems from all backgrounds...white, black, brown, asian. And there are bad neighborhoods infested with bad peoples of all colors. You say that certain barrios in Madrid are no longer safe for local Madrilenos to live in or walk in, well my friend, there are still cities here in the US were blacks and other minorities would not be safe to walk in either!!!

Thirty years ago there was a city (which will go nameless)here in Southern California that would arrest or harrass Black people walking the streets after dark! They could work there but they'd better be gone after dark! That's all changed now, but till this day there is a very small concentration of Blacks living there.

No one should live in fear, and I would condemn anyone regardless of ethnic group, even my own if they committed crimes against my community! It is the responsibilty of the police to crack down on criminals and to establish a system where they are making efforts to breakup gangs and rings of violence. It seems to me that the police dept. in Madrid needs to do a better job and stronger effort to keep it's streets safe. The Spanish government needs to be more vigilant over who it lets into their country. If you allow anyone to enter, then what do you expect...of course you're going to get the lowlifes and crminals coming in to infest your land. Don't blame the ethnic group for what's happening, blame the bad people for the crime and violence.

As regards to keeping your culture intact...I believe you now know how the Basques and Catalans feel. Spain's culture is rich and strong and only if the Spaniard wishes to change it he will do so. Recall Spain's past of 700 years of Moorish occupation...White Spain emerged intact and will continue to do so. This talk about keeping Spain white smacks of Nazism...keeping Germany pure, the superior race! Keeping white isn't bad so long as it isn't racist, nor is trying to preserve your culture. And don't worry...eating a taco, or sushi isn't going to turn you Mexican or Japanese!

There seems to be quite many opinions regarding emigration. My stance is the same of my goverment. Zero tolerance for illegal emigration but open arms for the legal emigrants Spain so deperately needs. This is not yet highly visible but from 2007 on it will. Spain faces a workers problem. There are not enough young people to substitute the old. There will be 200.000 thousand jobs unoccupied by 2010 at this rate.

Cheers.