Hello Everyone,

I was truly uplifted by the wonderful article that Chica shared with us of the work of Padre Pateras, or Hermano Isidoro Macías, that I set out to find the address of the albergue in Algeciras to make a donation.

If anyone else is interested here are the addresses in Algeciras:
ALBERGUE CRUZ BLANCA
Paseo Victoria Eugenia, 20
11207. ALGECIRAS (Cádiz)
Tlf.: 956 - 60 36 06
and,
CASA FAMILIAR VIRGEN DE LA PALMA
Pº de la Conferencia, 7-
11207 ALGECIRAS (Cádiz) -
Tlf. (956) 60 34 90
Fax: (956) 60 20 77

Mmmmm....I guess this gives me the perfect opportunity, to "say" one of my favourite phrases in the English language, specially, since there is not an Spanish equivalent to it (at least that I can think of):

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

C'mmon people, let's try not to get so 'visceral', and base our opinions on FACTS.

Nice one Booklady, they have my support/what little I can offer.

Have a nice week everyone.

Except, of course, that it happened the other way around. The Christians, Jews and Muslims cohabited just fine in the Muslim-controlled areas of Spain up till sometime in the 15th century. However, the Catholic theocracy of Castile couldn't bear the idea that anyone might believe differently than they did, so they instituted a program of religious and ethnic oppression so draconian that it's amazing George Bush's ancestors didn't invade the Iberian Peninsula.

It is not wise to judge facts 5 centuries ago with current perspectives. Under XXIth century point of view it is obviously horrible that ethnic/religious prosecution.

In every 15th century iberian kingdom (Portugal, Castile, Navarre, Aragon and Granada) cohabitation between these different religions/ethnias/cultures was a fact, and a very prosperous one. Mozarabs (those citizens with moslem religion) were very able working the land, jews (a large minority) had comerces and financed the kings' projects, and christians formed the working muscle. They were all spaniards.

But Queen Isabel (from Castile) and King Fernando (from Aragon) faced a new scenary in 1492: they anexionated Navarre, conquered Granada, and wanted to merge Castile and Aragon into a new country. They forced jews and mozarabs to quit Spain as a way to achieve religious unity. Spain lost skillfull handwork, gaining political and religious unity.

Just my thoughts...

Fernando

Wow... This thread has drifted far from its "Safety and Security Issues" roots. We've had accusations of communism, we've had Mike calling anyone who disagrees with him a "[censored]" (nice spelling, dude), and a side trip into the history of Iberian multiculturalism.

I hate to prolong the off-topic detour, but here's my one-shot reply to some of the issues raised on that last subject:

Fernando wrote:

True, but you're working from the assumption that all that counts is the perspectives of Spain's 15th-century Catholics. What evidence survives suggests that many (most?) of Spain's 15th-century non-Christians viewed Ferdinand and Isabella's campaign as we might today: as something violent and evil. IIRC, there's also evidence that a sizable minority of Spanish Christians at the time opposed the Inquisition, at least privately, and believed it was at odds with Jesus' teachings.

Your point, as I understand it, is that Ferdinand and Isabella had good intentions and believed they were doing the right thing. You are surely correct about that. However, the same can be said of some of history's greatest despots. Hitler was trying to establish prosperity, cultural and religious unity, and a sense of national identity in his time and place. Because it happened before I was born, should I refrain from judging him and saying he was wrong?

In any case, judging the Reyes Católicos wasn't my point. I was just trying to correct a factual error that ERT had posted. He implied that the Jews and Muslims were kicked out of Spain in 1492 because they could not blend into Iberian society and get along with people from other cultures. In fact, the Jews and Muslims generally got along fine with the Christians, and it was the Catholic theocracy that refused to blend into the existing (and very succcessful) multicultural society, and who decided to kick out everyone else.

If there's one thing we can gain from this thread, it's that we have all agreed to disagree on the subject. But I too wonder what 15th century political/religious implications really have to do with today's question about immigration? It seems like we would all learn from our history, but not use it as a focal point to discuss today's situation.

Brother Macias work, on behalf of illegal immigrants points out the fact that there are those who care about others, and just the fact that the city does contribute to the well-being of these people, even though it seems like a pittance offered, does indicate that there are Spaniards who understand the plight of these people. Whether or not it's wide spread support throughout Spain or not, doesn't matter. The fact remains, there are those who care.

With immigration comes a lot of burdens. One of them, without doubt, is the fact that amongst the people seeking refuge in another country, are those who leave a criminal past behind in the country they came from. The U.S. not only has lived with this problem, we've suffered from it. But, at the same time, since it goes with the territory, how do you avoid this situation? By not allowing people to immigrate?

I go back to something I said earlier. It would probably be in the best interest of Spain, or any other nation, that allows immigration, to deport those who break the law. There has to be a level of crime that would be unacceptable. I believe, being found guilty of any "crime against person," such as a conviction for pick-pocketing on up, could be considered acceptable reason for deportation. If they are also illegal, I don't understand why any nation should accept this behavior.

As far as those being helped by Brother Macias, I'd think they were less likely to embark on a wave of crime than those who have by-passed places like his. I might be wrong in this matter, but since there's no evidence to show a link between those he helps and crime, I am only assuming the best.

Based on what I've seen, and heard, in this thread, and in resource information, there are more restrictions placed on those who would not illegally enter Spain to live an honest life, than there are those who would illegally enter. Is it possible that the restrictions are too high for honest people, and too low for those who aren't?

Wolf

Hey just wanted to put in what my experience of pick pocketing has been. When my parents were over, my mother caught some one pickpocketing her. Who was it? A gypsy, a moroccan..... no an older Spanish male, with what appeared to be his wife/ partner whatever. Luckily he was caught in the act and was so surprised by being given a slap by my mum that he dropped the wallet (which essentially contained nothing anyway) and scarpered. The rise in criminality is due to a great many factors. It is something that is being dealt with in a great many countries, and cannot be put down just to increases in illegal immigrants. what about increasing levels of juvenile delinquincy, drug taking,alcohol abuse?
Or are these problems only associated with immigrants as well?

Ok, Ok, I apologize. Perhaps my sarcastic first post to this thread was uncalled for, but like Booklady and Miche, certain issues are near and dear to my heart. And when I get irked, occasionally, I will have a knee jerk reaction.

One thing is for certain, to use a Spanish phrase, "en todas partes cuecen habas".... essentially, things are the same everywhere (or everywhere has it´s share of problems). Yes, crime has increased as the illegal immigration has increased here in Spain, but so has housing. Does that mean we should attribute the rise in the cost of housing here in Spain to illegal immigration? Afterall, people are rushing to get out of immigrant filled neighborhoods and where the land developers see a hungry market...

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that statistics can be a very dangerous tool that can be manipulated to suit anyone´s needs. Judging an entire race or group of people based on yesterday´s headlines is a very dangerous thing to do, as I tried to allude to in my tongue-in-cheek comment about spousal abuse here in Spain.

Miketheman states:
Mike, I hate to disagree with you here buddy but, the only facts that I saw were the ones stated in the interpol link that Booklady provided. ERT is stating his opinion based on newspaper headlines.

However, I do agree that in order to discuss this topic inteligently, we should just stick to the facts and try not to let our emotions get in the way (although I have to admit, that´s really hard for me! :p ).

Chica,

You have nothing to apologize for. If anyone was offended, because you offered researched information, that's their own problem, not yours. Even when you and I have disagreed, I've always felt your stance was well founded on the information you offered, not on inuendo, or headlines in a newspaper. On more than one occasion, I've found reason to find better understanding because of your posts.

Personally, I find your posts interesting, poignant, and well worth reading, even when we don't see eye-to-eye. You're entitled to your convictions just like anyone else. Keep 'em coming.

Wolf