What the hell do I know, of course!!
Look at the title of this thread, and if you are in accordance with it and don't see the problem with such a statement then good for you.

I like many others have had unpleasant things happen to me. I've been spat at here in London and the person wasn't an immigrant, gypsy or....bla bla what does that mean? nothing to me.
Luckily I haven't been violently robbed/attacked, no that's not true, while talking a nice stroll along a canal my husband and me were attacked by a group of white youths and then when we reported this to the police, we were mistreated in the way they dealt with us, (for which we later got a formal apology).
I just hope all visitors to Spain stay safe and can have a pleasant stay through their travels, and like another member on this board says, develop eyes at the back of your head.
There is no formulae to avoid being attacked or robbed with regards to avoiding people. Simple as that.
On the whole I've had no problems walking alone during the early hours in Madrid or while walking the 'Camino a Santiago' alone and often through the night too.

I have been reading thios thread for a while now with no comment but now ill throw mine out.. I lived and worked in Malaga for about 2 years. My experience.. not racist statement.. is that every time we had a problem in our bar or neighoorhood. it was Either the eastern european mob.. or if it was plain mugging or stabbing it was the Africans.
Im not trying to be racist at all.. i have friends from all countries. But it seems that the immgrants that come to Spain unlike in Canada are less controlled.. they allow very criminal elements into Spain to run rampant. Right now Moroccans are a big problem in this area, almost every night we hear of another stabbing in our neigborhood. Im not saying that Spaniards do not commit crimes.. but even in this past year it seems that immigrants have indeed been increasing the crime rate significantly.. especially in violent crime.

When you come from a Country where Brutality is done by the government you may be inclined to perform some brutality yourself in a free society

Someone said: "I think the moros, gitanos and sudacas (pej. that's what lots of españoles call Latinos) become criminals because they are discriminated against. They cannot get jobs because of their background"

What kind of ethics do you have??. So the cause why people can assault you in the streets or steal you in your house or even raping you is because they are discriminated against and because they don´t get jobs because of their background????. This reminds me of a conversation with a 18 yeard old colombian immigrant that said: "Colombians in Spain kill because Spaniards don´t give them jobs". Incredible!. The cause why people become delinquent or criminal is his own morality and ethics. If you are foreigner and you don´t find a job what you have to do is go back to your original country. But, instead of this, there are people that promote that this people can assault you in the streets to steal the money that you have earned legally with your hard work.

In the small villages in Spain there have always been many very poor people. They work from the dawn to the sunset taking care of their cows or their small lands. They are poorer than many immigrants that are living in Spain that work taking care of Spanish old people, but for these Spaniards from the small villages HONESTITY and HARD WORKING are major words. So, according to the morality of some people, these people should go to the cities to steal, assault, and even kill people so they can get enough money to live more decently...??.

This morning I´ve seen a group of Romanian minors (16 or 17 yeard old) in the Plaza de Ventas waiting for the victims to stop their cars in the traffic-signals. I´ve seen them assaulting a woman in her car, opening her doors, and stealing her valuables. She went out of the car and 2 of them hit her to the ground. I don´t mind if they are minors or not. They SHOULDN´T BE IN SPAIN. These kind of thing We have never had in Spain.

Here I post some piece of news that I´ve read in the last couple of days in some online newspapers so you can make an opinion of what is going on in Spain with the immigrants:

1. "A romanian man kills a Spaniard in Oliva (Valencia) and steals him 120 euros".

GANDÍA/VALENCIA La suerte que le sonrió se volvió en su contra por la codicia de un ladrón asesino. José Luis Feliu ganó el premio de una máquina tragaperras (120 euros) y su verdugo le siguió para arrebatarle el dinero. Ésta es la deducción a la que han llegado los investigadores de la Guardia Civil tras reconstruir las últimas horas de vida del vecino de Oliva..... (I can put all the article if you want).

2. "2 Eastern European immigrants have been detained because they stole lots of people in the streets as they have wore policemen suits".

MADRID.- La Policía Municipal ha detenido en la calle Montera a dos individuos que se hacían pasar por agentes del Cuerpo Nacional de Policía e intimidaban a los viandantes.

Según informaron fuentes de la Policía Municipal, un ciudadano avisó a una patrulla ya que le extrañó que estas dos personas que se hacían pasar por policías fueran extranjeras.

Los agentes comprobaron que los dos individuos, que se identificaron con pasaportes de nacionalidad rumana y checa, llevaban sendas placas de policías falsificadas....

3. "5 colombians have been detained accused of drug dealing".

Agentes adscritos a la Unidad de Drogas y Crimen Organizado (UDYCO) Costa del Sol en colaboración con la UDEV de Torremolinos (Málaga) y UDYCO de Algeciras (Cádiz) detuvieron a cinco colombianos como presuntos traficantes de drogas.

Los detenidos responden a las iniciales de A.S.R. de 31 años; R.G. de 28; A.J.B. de 23; F.G. de 30 años y J.C.C. de 39, según informaron en un comunicado fuentes del Instituto Armado.

La operación denominada "VistaSol" llevada a cabo contra este grupo
organizado de colombianos dedicados al tráfico de sustancia estupefaciente,.....

4. "Several immigrants detained accused of stealing and public alteration"

Así, en primer lugar han sido detenidos dos individuos por hurto, M.J.J.E de 39 años y M.Z.B. de 40 años, ambos de procedencia árabe, que presuntamente cometieron en hurto al descuido a unos extranjeros en la Explanada de España. También ha sido detenida una tercera personas de nacionalidad ecuatoriana, identificado como L.A.T.B., de 37 años, que presuntamente participó en una pelea y 'presa de un ataque de nervios', posteriormente, se dedicó a causar daños en los vehículos aparcados en la calle Campos Vasallos y alrededores.

Además fueron detenidos un hombre de nacionalidad rumana I.S., de 26 años, y el ciudadano lituano B. M., de 20 años, como presuntos autores de hurtos en grandes superficies

5. "A moroccoan man has been detained accused of 20 robberies".

etenido un marroquí acusado de 20 robos

Operaba en Puerto de la Cruz y normalmente actuaba en Punta Brava y en la explanada del muelle. Llevaba consigo un destornillador con el que forzaba y doblaba las puertas de los turismos que desvalijaba.

EFE, S/C de Tenerife
La Policía Nacional ha detenido en Puerto de la Cruz a un hombre al que se le acusa de ser el presunto autor de veinte delitos de robo, según informó ayer la Comisaría Provincial.

Una nota policial indica que se trata de H.B. de 33 años, de nacionalidad marroquí, considerado como el presunto autor de veinte robos en interiores de vehículos.

6. "An immigrant has appeared killed in a house in Murcia".

MURCIA.- Un joven de nacionalidad extranjera ha aparecido muerto con el cuerpo ensangrentado en una vivienda ubicada en la pedanía costera cartagenera de Islas Menores, según informaron fuentes del Centro de Coordinación de Emergencias, quienes señalaron que todo apunta a que se trata de una muerte violenta.

Las mismas fuentes indicaron que recibieron el aviso del hallazgo a las 7.45 horas, alertando de que un hombre yacía inmóvil en el suelo de un inmueble ubicado en la calle Isla de la Toja de Islas Menores, por lo que se envió una Unidad Médica de Emergencia (UME) 061.

7. "9 romanians have been detained when they were trying to steal important pictures in a gallery".

ADRID.- La policía ha frustrado el robo de dos valiosos cuadros del pintor Paul Theodor Brussel, que iban a ser subastados con un precio de salida de 300.000 euros, y ha detenido a nueve ciudadanos rumanos, cinco de ellos capturados 'in fraganti' cuando salían de una prestigiosa galería de arte con el botín.

Según informó la Jefatura Superior de Policía, los cinco detenidos tras salir de la galería de arte, situada en la madrileña calle de Alfonso XI, son Joseph R., de 57 años; Endre A., de 31; Bui Ilie V., de 29; Paul Z., de 26, y Tical S., de 23.

8. "Many immigrants detained after stealing in many house in Vega Baja y en Benidorm"

a Policía ha desarticulado una red de asaltadores de viviendas en la comarca de la Vega Baja y en Benidorm. Los apresados, 12 hombres y dos mujeres de nacionalidad argelina y rusa, transportaban la mercancía robada a Argelia con el ferry. Los detenidos actuaban en cédulas de tres o cuatro personas para cometer sus robos.

Los detenidos son 12 hombres y dos mujeres de entre 19 y 37 años, de nacionalidad argelina, excepto una de las mujeres, rusa. Todos ellos tenían ya numerosos antecedentes y reclamaciones judiciales por otros delitos, y la mayoría utilizaban identidades falsas.

9. "An argelian man accepts a 2 years sentence in prison because he tried to rape a Spanish woman".

Un argelino de 27 años aceptó una condena de un año y 11 meses de cárcel por intentar violar a una joven con la que coincidió en una zona de bares junto al río Guadalquivir.

El juicio estaba previsto en la Sección Cuarta de la Audiencia de Sevilla pero no llegó a celebrarse porque el procesado aceptó los hechos y la pena reclamada por el fiscal, que la rebajó respecto a los tres años que pedía antes del juicio.

La agresión ocurrió sobre la 1 de la madrugada del 21 de agosto de 2002 en la puerta del Bar Capote, junto al río Guadalquivir, donde el acusado R.A. se encontraba con un grupo de amigos.

10. "An ucranian man hits 22 times with a knife to another ucranian man in Palma".

L.M.

PALMA.—El agresor, un joven ucraniano, propinó un total de 22 cuchilladas a su víctima, de su misma nacionalidad, a la salida de un club de alterne de Palma. Pese a las ingente cantidad de puñaladas recibidas, la víctima se mantuvo con vida. Hasta tal punto de facilitar a los policías la identidad de su presunto atacante.

Agentes de la Unidad de Delitos Especializados y Violentos (Udev) del Grupo de Homicidios del Cuerpo Nacional de Policía se hicieron cargo de la investigación del suceso. Todo indicaba que se encontraban ante un asesinato frustrado por la fortaleza de la víctima, un joven ucraniano de 24 años de edad.

11. "5 children discovered the body of a Colombian man that have been murdered"

AVIER MARTÍNEZ/ARTURO CHECA (VALENCIA)

Un juego infantil acabó ayer en una verdadera investigación criminal. Un niño de 14 años de edad encontró el cadáver de un ciudadano colombiano cuando se escondió en un depósito de agua vacío para ocultarse de sus amigos mientras jugaban a policías y terroristas.

El macabro hallazgo tuvo lugar sobre las 19.30 horas, en una fábrica en ruinas situada en la calle Gas Lebón, en un solar muy próximo a la Ciudad de las Artes y las Ciencias. "El cuerpo estaba tapado con un colchón, pero al pisarlo salió una pierna y me asusté mucho'', afirmó el menor que localizó el cadáver.

12. "2 colombian men have been detained accused of hiting with a knife and stealing to 3 Ecuatorians"

MADRID.- La policía ha detenido a dos jóvenes colombianos de 16 y 19 años, como presuntos autores del robo y apuñalamiento anoche de tres hermanos de nacionalidad ecuatoriana en el parque de Aluche (Latina).

Un portavoz del Samur , que atendió a los heridos, indicó que dos de ellos presentaban un estado "muy grave", mientras que el tercero resultó herido leve.

Los tres hermanos, de entre 26 y 30 años, fueron abordados a las 00.30 en el parque situado entre las calles Valmojado e Illescas, por cuatro individuos que les exigieron con intimidación la entrega de sus efectos personales.

Tras robarles, los agresores les atacaron con armas blancas y se dieron a la fuga.

13. "A german couple have been hurt when they were assaulted by a group of 3 Morroccoan men".

Una pareja alemana resultó herida anoche en el distrito de Moncloa tras ser agredida por tres individuos, al parecer marroquíes, durante un intento de robo, según ha infomado un portavoz de la Jefatura Superior de Policía de Madrid.

El ataque se produjo sobre las 23.00 horas a la altura del número 5 del paseo de la Florida. Fuentes del Samur-Protección Civil indicaron que Helga S., de 58 años de edad, sufrió un traumatismo craneoencefálico de moderado a grave al caer y golpearse la cabeza contra el suelo durante el enfrentamiento.

Tras ser estabilizada, la mujer fue evacuada en una ambulancia de soporte vital avanzado hasta el Hospital Puerta de Hierro, donde ingresó con pronóstico grave.

At the same time I didn´t found any piece of news in those online newspapers where a Spaniard was involved. We used to be a very safe country, now We are not. Thanks to the 3rd world immigrants.

So here you are seeing what immigrants are doing in Spain and many other Western European countries (countries that once were pretty safe and now with the delinquency that immigrants have brought there will never be it again), and this is why many normal people are very upset about this problem. I hope you undestand the situation better.

PD: sorry for the long post.

In today´s online newspaper I´ve just seen another "multicultural enrichment" brought to Spain by immigrants...

"2 Eastern Europeans stop a Spaniard with a gunfire, take him to his chalet, aim their gunfire to the son and wife of the Spaniard, torture him, hit the Spaniard (break his teeth and his lip), and steal him 42.000 euros".

Sucesos
El empresario Vidal abandona su chalé de l'Olleria tras ser torturado por 2 ladrones
Se ha trasladado con su familia al casco urbano como medida de precaución
J. ABIETAR ZAHONERO\L'OLLERIA


ImprimirEnviar

Publicidad


Un conocido y emprendedor empresario de l'Olleria, Juan Vidal, (responsable de la cadena Vidal Descuento Duro S. A.) se ha visto obligado a dejar el chalé en el que residía a las afueras de la mencionada localidad después de que unos encapuchados asaltaran dicha vivienda. Los ladrones le torturaron a él y a su familia y se llevaron un botín de unos 42.000 euros.

Como medida de precaución recomendada por las Fuerzas de Seguridad de la población, el empresario se ha trasladado con su familia hasta una vivienda en pleno casco urbano de la localidad.

El hombre que ha pasado por este auténtico calvario es muy conocido, no solamente en la comarca de la Vall d'Albaida, sino también en buena parte de la provincia de Valencia. El empresario tiene varias fábricas en Beneixida. Las empresas que dirige se encargan de la fabricación de utensilios que en la mayoría de las ocasiones tienen como destinatarias las tiendas conocidas como de todo a 100.

El atraco se produjo a finales del mes pasado. Los autores del asalto, al parecer dos ciudadanos de Europa del Este, esperaron al empresario de madrugada en la puerta del chalé que ahora ha abandonado y cuando entró con su vehículo le apuntaron con una escopeta.

Despertados y encañonados...

(you can see the rest in here:
http://www.lasprovincias.es/valencia/edicion/prensa/noticias/Sucesos/200304/1 7/VAL-01D17VS14.html

We´ve never had this kind of violence in Spain.

This seems to have turned into an immigrant bashing forum, a place for people to vent and let it all out about what makes them upset.

Let me ask you all this question, since it is so easy to focus on the negative.

What GOOD things have immigrants done in Spain?

Let's see if we have as many POSITIVE posts as we do NEGATIVE.

Shawn

1) They have raised our birth rate, and our population from 39 millions to 40,2 millions.

2) They have provided Spain with a necessary hand work in key areas.

3) They have brought fresh air to a quite closed culture.

4) They will guarantee the future of our social system.

But some of them have also brought more violence, robbery and drugs (I tend to think it is a minority though).

Fernando

hello everybody

ert and fernando

i believe both of your statements
there BOTH realistic and logical

ert
unfortunatly yours is "politically uncorrect"
but i conside it a pure fact

fernando
i believe yours more since im not racist
and i belive it just can not represent the whole race/races
if you know what i mean.
and by the way what does this mean:
they bring a sense of fresh air to our closed society.

'....sense of fresh air...'

I understand it as 'refreshing'. London wouldn't be what it is without immigrants, in fact that's the beauty of London/Uk. The cultural diversity is so rich and wonderful and yet still so ...London and English at the same time.
I love cosmopolitan cities and that includes Madrid. VIVAAAA MADRID!!! Y LONDRES!!!!!

p.s. I'll get fellow ewe Jo-anne to head butt me the next time I post reply to one of ERT's threads.

1) They have raised our birth rate, and our population from 39 millions to 40,2 millions.

Those are wrong statistics. Just in Madrid immigrants represent the 11% (this appeared in the newspaper last year), which makes 600.000 people. Immigrants in Spain are more than 3 million. Most of them are from 20 years old until 40 so they are in the age of procreate. If We discount the 18 million of Spaniards that are older than 40 years old (ie, the ones that won´t have a child any more), then We have that there are 3 million immigrants against 8 million of Spaniards in age to have sons. Considering the fact that the immigrants have a much higher quantity of sons, then in a few years (10 or 15) you will see that in many places of Spain immigrants outnumber Spaniards. In the biggers hospitals of Madrid the natality of immigrants (mainly from southamerican amerindians) is the 50% of the total births. Do you want this for our country??. Do you want that when you are older most of the people you find in the streets are northafricans and southamericans??. Did you know that Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Antwerken are going to be muslim by 2015?. Did you know that if the current demographics continue Denmark is going to be a muslim country by 2040??. What I have just said is for real, so take your own conclussions...

2) They have provided Spain with a necessary hand work in key areas.

Considering the fact that 5 years ago there weren´t almost any immigrant and that the touristic industry and agricultural industry was working perfectly well with just Spaniards, I wonder why is it that in just 5 years the immigrants are so necessary and why We couldn´t live without their hand work now??. Maybe it is because many immigrants have replaced many Spaniards from doing these types of work and they accept to be paid a missery for doing those works. That is the reason why more and more immigrants will be comming, because they accept less salaries than Spaniards for the same work. Conclussions: cheap hand work, worst work conditions, less ethnic Spaniards working in those areas and more and more immigrants coming each year.

3) They have brought fresh air to a quite closed culture.

???.

I won´t comment this because I could be very demolishing with my arguments.

4) They will guarantee the future of our social system.

I think you will have to start thinking for yourself and not believing so much in the media. 90% of the immigrants are of very low income. Thus the only tax they pay is social security (they hardly pay the IRPF -the most important tax in Spain- because their incomes are less than 9000 euros a year in many cases. After each immigrant working with a very low income there are probably 3 sons that go to free schools, free hospitals, free subsidies, ... So for apporting very little they get a lot (just a public place in a public school cost 2000 euros a year for the public system. Multiply it for 3 sons in each family, you have that someone that apports let´s say 60 euros a month in social security costs to the public system 2000*3=6000 euros a year just in public schools). So the problem is not that they are going to guarantee our social system, the question is that they are going to ruin at the same time other aspects of our social system (We will see it in 15 or 20 years). I´ve recently seen that the "gastos" in medicaments have risen a lot in the last 3 years. This is because 3 million of new people have come to Spain, and even if they are illegal in our country they can go to hospitals for free and they get free medicaments, ...This is just the begining. We are "regalando" our country to the immigrants. You will see it in 20 or 30 years.

BTW, another news from today´s online newspapers:

"5 colombians hitting each others in the streets in Madrid". They had to go to the hospital.
"6 ecuatorians hitting each others in another streets in Madrid".They had to go to the hospital. They were drunk.

You can read it here:

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2003/04/18/madrid/1050653736.html

miche,

I understand that you are an immigrant (or son of immigrants) in London. That is why you love the "multicultural London". Have you bothered to ask a Londoner if they "love the multicultural London"??. I think they have the right to decide if they want the multicultural London or not, it is not you who has to decide it.

Take The Netherlands as an example...They are the MOST TOLERANT society and country in the world but they have massively voted a far-right political party (Pim Fortuyn). Millions of dutch people have voted that they don´t want a multicultural Netherlands and that they want to restrict immigration.

In some cities the far right party got the majority of the votes, guess which were the cities where this happened...?. Yes, the "multicultural cities"!. And this comming from the most tolerant country in the world, so imagine what they think about "multiculturality in their cities".

miche, I don´t think I´m going to reply to your posts because our positions are totally opposed and it is a waste of time. The difference between you and I is that you are an immigrant (or son of immigrants), thus you have an interested position in what you say (you want that Europe becomes much more "multicultural" because you are an immigrant) and that I´m a Spaniard who wants that his country and society don´t go to hell with massive 3º world immigration. I think you have no right to tell us what We should do in our society. It is us who has to decide it. I don´t opinate if I want that 3 million Nigerians go to your country (Ecuador) to live permanently. I understand that it is Ecuatorians who has 100% the right to decide it, so I shut up. So, it should be the same for you.