Hi.

Thanks Shawn and Pim.

I didn't said goodbye, I just don't want to post further on this topic.

It is not about personal attacks, what hurts me more is that people here have chosen to follow a news created by american media. They have decided that Spain prefers to colaborate with terrorists (which we have been prosecuting for years) than with an ally, all based in what the media (only in the US) have said.

I can stand almost any idea, but here there was no discussion, no dialogue, but people presenting not fundamented opinions of a forgein country. It is not that I felt these were attacks to Spain, but they were. Think that I am as proamerican as anyone can be, and it hurts see your country attacked in such unfair manner.

And yes Pim, you hit on target, I have seen so many corpses, so many amputated people, so many shots in the head and so many buryings of ETA victims in my life that I'm tired of watching it. And when someone doubt ETA is just a terrorist band (no basque and no separatist group), it hurts me even more.

Fernando

Hi, Fernando (et al.)--
I give in...I have to comment too! I think you're very right, Fernando (and others) that many people (far too many, in my opinion) follow the reporting of the American media without questioning both the depth and the bias of the coverage. I would venture to suggest that most of the people on this board, however, feel compelled to delve more deeply into these issues (just look at the attention to this thread!) and don't accept what's said at face value. That said, this wound is a new and raw one for us Americans (and really, for so many people around the world) that we are just now coming to grips with how it will change our (heretofore relatively insular--even for those of us who try to take a broader world view, read overseas news, etc.) lives.

For people living in Spain, or the Middle East, or Northern Ireland, or any of the other places in the world where terrorism has become ingrained in daily lives (even to the point where the reports of attacks don't draw wide attention anymore), there has been much more time to think about what all this means for the regular citizen. That's not to say that people in those places don't think carefully and deeply about the ramifications of terror; on the contrary, those thoughts have had time to evolve in response to years and years (even a lifetime) of terrorist threat. If you want to see a particularly chilling picture of this, check out Laurel Holliday's "Children of Conflict" series, in which she compiles the writings of young people growing up in Israel and Palestine, Northern Ireland, America during the Civil Rights movement, and the Holocaust.

We Americans are still new at this. I think the military tribunals are a sign of this; one would hope that we will evolve a more appropriate system over time. In the meantime, we're still reeling, both personally and as a society.

I always tell my students at the University that we should keep in mind that most people in the world do the best they can with the situation and information before them at any given time. With all my dislike of the current American administration before 9/11, I have to work particularly hard to keep this in mind.

I hope we can all continue to (constructively) criticize BOTH Spain's and America's governmental policies. It's more important than ever to us in America, and it's as important as it's ever been in Spain. As for individual views on things like the death penalty, those will persist--as they should. Careful inquiry into death penalty cases by various groups (and even classes of college students) has resulted in some shocking findings of innocence among people slated to die. Regardless of your view about whether Bin Ladin and his ilk deserve to die or be locked up forever or whatever, I am sure we can all agree that the highest standards of evidence should apply to his case, as to all others. Those decisions are irreversible. I would argue that we owe it to the victims of 9/11, and to the many horribly victimized Afghan people, to learn all the facts we can before meting out punishment in their names.

Tara

[ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: taravb ]

Sorry gang! Short vacation! I can't just sit back and listen to this diatribe about how Spaniards suffer from terrorist attacks, acting like the U.S. knows nothing about them, feels nothing, and can't "understand" because we haven't "experienced it."

Over the last ten plus years, the death toll in Americans killed in bombings, at our embassies, the previous WTC attack, the Murrah Center in Oklahoma City, barracks in Riyahd, Somolia, and various attacks which targeted Americans don't seem to matter. Our losses make the 800 casualties you talk about sound like an auto accident compared to our losses.

Either you are "conveniently" forgetting that the U.S. has been under attack for years, or are so insensitive to what has happened to Americans, that you can't see the truth. My Gawd! Wake up! We're the only nation in the world who has had the courage to attack these sons-of-bitches head on, without sitting back, licking our wounds, and crying about it.

As Americans, it's our obligation to fight for our country. While our troops are in harms way, in Afghanistan, it's our obligation to carry on the fight at home. Included in this fight is the need for us to attack idiotic statements made by people who would have us act like lambs being hauled to slaughter, just because it's the way they seem to deal with terrorism.

That will never happen here. We aren't lambs. Our objectives are clear and strong. We will take on terrorism head on, and if you haven't got the guts to join us in the fight, step aside, and quit blocking our way. Your methods have already proven to be inadequate, lack substance, and have done nothing to bring peace to the world.

Yes! Americans will die. But we've always been willing to fight for our liberties, and our way of life. We don't put a price tag on freedom. We only see the goal, and what it will take to preserve our freedoms. Like President Truman said, near the end of WWII, when he was dealing with internal and world wide issues, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." In this case, it certainly applies to those who would do all they could to stop the U.S. from taking terrorism to their knees, because they lack the backbone to really join the fight, and stomp it out in their own nations.

As for "personal attacks" alluded to here on this board, each attack against the U.S. is a "personal attack" to me. I have lost family and friends in wars, and have been in harms way myself. If you have the guts to make a statement, have the guts to back it up, when we fight back.

Fernando - Please! Don't take what I say as a personal attack against you. It's not intended. I offer nothing but friendship to you, but like you, believe in my country, and my way of life. As an American, I'm obligated to stand up for what I believe in, just like you feel the obligation to state your opinion. Even though we may disagree on some issues, that doesn't make us enemies. As for your ability to stand up, and carry on these discussions in English, I think that makes you a very special person, and someone whom I'd be proud to meet, and call a friend. Your statements are essential for all of us, because they give us food for thought, and in the process, we help others understand that there are differences between people in the world, that often are mis-interpreted, or often formed by the media, which could care less about truth, bending stories to meet their own personal agendas. I applaud you for your involvement. There is no reason for you to turn away from what I see, as your obligation to yourself, and all of us, to speak the truth as you see it.

Of course I still retain the right to disagree with you, and agree that you have the right to disagree with me -

Wolf (Who can't seem to actually retire, or take a vacation - )

Nothing really to say [a first], but I did want to condemn MadridMan for blowing my fake-URL cover! Shame on you! :p Actually, I just saw a picture of edr on the following site: www.theresasuckerborneveryminute.net. Sorry edr...

I just wanted everyone to know that I'm just glad to have found this board, and as Wolf states, we have our opinions, and can agree to disagree. Unfortunately, as we're not dealing in a face-to-face debate, we don't have the luxury of tone of voice, inflection, gestos, etc. to assist us in meaning. And, as Shawn stated, regardless of the extent to which I agree or disagree, I'm always curious as to what Fernando posts. Thanks, to all of you.

As far as diplomatic ice-breakers go, as Felipe II said "Yo, el Rey"...

CaliBasco [who is about as diplomatic as inviting Ariel Sharon to a Hawai'ian pig roast...] :p

Hi, Wolf--
I don't disagree with your descriptions of Americans being targeted prior to 9/11, but with the exception of Oklahoma City, this hasn't happened to us at home before. And in that case, the suspects were almost immediately apprehended, AND we all got to hear about the evidence against them (and then got to hear the media feeding frenzy when they badgered the witnesses for moment-by-moment descriptions of what McVeigh looked like as he was executed).

I can say for myself, though, that until 9/11, NEVER before in my life had I avoided a crowded place (Mall of America on the day after Thanksgiving), planned escape routes from my city, or stockpiled necessities and water. I had never fretted about whether my 31-year-old smallpox vaccine might still be worth anything, or lost sleep over whether I had let my 4-year-old touch the mail.

I appreciate your steely resolve (and I am certainly more of a dove than a hawk), and understand that it comes from a personal and professional history that I don't share. But I do stand by my earlier assertion that we as a society haven't got this figured out yet. We're acting on the information we have before us right now (I hope), but we don't know the full extent of this yet, and we certainly don't have the trial and punishment aspect completely worked out. We are obliged to push ahead, but I would argue that pushing people (and nations) who question our methods, goals, etc. out of our way is a mistake. We in the US don't have a monopoly on truth and justice. It's incumbent on us, as members of the community of nations, to hear what the rest of the world has to say as well. That doesn't mean we have to (as some people would like) engage in all sorts of "if only" thoughts about how we acted in the world prior to 9/11 (should we have kept troops in Saudi, should we have given weapons to the mujahedeen, should we have done this or that in response to Israeli pressure?), but in my opinion, it means that we now have to listen as we act, even when listening is uncomfortable.

Tara

[ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: taravb ]

Shawn:

"Military tribunals debase the American justice system. These rarely used kangaroo-courts are admistered by senior level military officers who by defenition are accountable to the Commander-in-Chief, President Bush. The president is able to elect who will be subject to a tribunal, and those who determine guilt report to the president. "Alice in Wonderland" like justice results from such contrivance. The United States is much too strong of a country to rely upon a capricious judicial body."

I'm with you on that one! My point all along. However, I think a military tribunal could be good a thing, if it had the same standards in terms of burden of proof and a full jury for the death penalty.

Pim:

"Somebody has asked if there's a difference between life imprisonment and the death penalty. And there is; ending some criminals' lives is doing the very same thing you acuse them of doing. And we're talking about human lives, like or not, like Carole Chiaro points out; surely NOT about MONEY."

I must clarify that my position has clearly shown that the issue is not solely about "money", i.e. taxes. It's about the entire system; it's about opening more penal institutions near towns and cities where the citizens don't want them. It's knowing that such an extremely small percentage of inmates are ever rehabilitated. If we’re doing it wrong, we need to change it. Our results thus far, all the way across the board, have shown failure!

I must stand by my earlier statements (or re-iterate them as no one has answered or addressed them directly). I’ll do so by asking one long-winded question (which is also posted at http://www.calibascoisafunnyguy.com). …

Which is more humane - locking someone up for life, basically imposing psychological terror on them, taking their freedoms, their social abilities, their liberties (and as Wolf stated, creating a worse person inside prison - turning them into a monster), or taking a life quickly and easily especially when the person who committed the crime KNEW going into it that the punishment was death?

Again, I say their choice, their action, and their consequence. So be it! Stop quibbling and get it over with. Where's the guillotine... kidding.

Seriously, however, no one seems to want to address the issue of how we psychologically damage prisoners, probably because deep inside everyone knows how in-humane it really is.

Now, taravb raises some very important concerns:

"Careful inquiry into death penalty cases by various groups (and even classes of college students) has resulted in some shocking findings of innocence among people slated to die."

AGREED! I've seen many of these instances myself.

There needs to be very stringent criteria for "making sure" someone is not innocent. If there’s any “doubt” we don’t do it.

However, what about all the murderers who do plead guilty and even show/tell the police where they buried various bodies (several of them mind you)? They are undoubtedly the perpetrator? Why is this person still around? Why is my “money” (www.itsallaboutmoney.org) paying for such dastardly people to stay alive?

What about people who admit to the crime and also prefer to die? Without getting into an entirely new topic, just let me say that freedom is freedom. Therefore, if someone chooses to die, that is his or her right, right? Yet, we won’t aid them in their quest, as we believe it's not humane?

edr

Tara,

Well said. Your points are good ones, and we should all heed them. The "what if" philosophy does nothing to gain ground for us, in the fight that we have in front of us.

I also agree, that nations have their laws, and rules. We cannot ask them to change them for us. But, over the years, the methods used by so many nations to fight terrorism has fallen flat on their collective faces, simply because they don't put enough teeth into the fight that guarantees success. Now, when the U.S. is taking the fight to the terrorists, why aren't these nations finding ways to take a step forward, and really join in the fight to stomp out these groups? Many will, but it takes time, and patience.

The attitude that permeated American society is the same one that was present in other countries, even when terrorism happened within their boundaries. People don't seem to understand that they are involved, even if the people killed are not their friends, or family members. When one person dies as a result of a terrorist attack, and we collectively do nothing, we are all guilty of allowing these people to continue their assaults against all of us.

Yes, we must all listen patiently. But in the end, the only course of action is one that shows the world is united against terrorism, and we are taking a common stand to bring those who act out in such a manner are brought to justice.

You mentioned not worrying about the mail, etc. I totally agree. But at the same time, I think about a 94 year old woman who died from anthrax, whose only life surrounded going to a hair dresser, and making her peace with God, through her church. I feel that the people who would kill this woman, or the innocents in the WTC, do not deserve any sympathy, or guarantees of rights, when their selection of victims is done randomly, caring less about who their victims are. As the old saying goes, "You fight fire with fire." If that means we use terrorist tactics against terrorists, so be it. Maybe that's the only language and resolve they understand.

In my opinion, it's time to turn the CIA, and any other world agencies on these people. It's time we "Unleash the dogs of war!" When terrorists are running, and hiding, and can't find ways to plan attacks against people, we're all a little bit safer, and the next deaths, which could be any of us, our friends, or our family, may not occur.

Is there a peaceful resolve to this issue? No! Any sign of a gesture from us, that we would be willing to "negotiate," would only be a sign to these people, that we are weak in our resolve.

As I post this, the issues surrounding extradition from Spain is being focused on by the President, and the Spanish government. Let's hope these issues are resolved.

Wolf

We must think more clearly, more carefully, more compassionately than the terrorists, or risk being called terrorists ourselves.

I feel grateful that our government is acting, but if it presumes to act in my name (as any democratic government would do), I would like to believe that it will take advantage of the wisdom of people who know more than I do about the underlying facts AND that it will keep to the moral high road (I'm such a Pollyanna!).

Hindsight is 20/20, of course, and given what we all know of world and American history, this is a lot to ask of ANY government (ours is no different from any other in this regard).

I think we need to keep close watch over those things (care, compassion, clear thought) that separate us from terrorists. In our humanity, we all share the urge for vengeance and the desire to protect ourselves, even at the expense of others--but I keep hoping that those will yield to the higher-order values we say we cherish.

[ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: taravb ]

edr: You don't really think that Bin Laden and his gang are deterred by capital punishment, do you?

CaliBasco: Thanks for adding your humor to a heated debate. I, for one, appreciate it.

Wolf: You are, without a doubt, very well-informed. I rarely have to turn on CNN or read a newspaper these days.

Fernando: Don't give up!! We are all entitled to our opinions. (Some of us aren't ashamed to admit that you do make many valid points.)

And, of course, what unites us here is our love for Spain and, I think, our love for our fellow man.

Now a CaliBasco-ism: Let's get out there and kill someone in the name of religion!! (Sorry, CaliBasco, I just can't pull it off. You don't need to worry about identity theft!)

Ah, CaliBasco - you always make me laugh!

I got rather rudely interrupted in an earlier post (work does tend to do that ) but the point I was starting to make -

The attack of 9/11 was on U.S. soil; was an attack on an international symbol of the world's economy; took the lives of people from 80 plus countries; and, finally, globally affected people of all nationalities. And continues to do so -

I am unilaterally opposed to the death penalty - it seems to me death is far easier to bear than life incarceration - especially for a terrorist who has vowed to serve his/her god and welcomes death.

I am aghast at our government even considering the effecting of a military tribunal; this goes against everything the U.S. constitution and process of government stands for.

If Miloschivejk (I can't spell - sorry,)a prime abuser of human rights, including the use of terrorism albeit in a different form than that of 9/11, can be tried in and by the World Court - why not the terrorists in question?

The war on terrorism is a global effort - should not the perpetuators of terrorism be tried and sentenced by a global effort - under the auspices of the the World Court ...

BTW Fernando - don't you dare disappear! Your comments, insights and thoughts are appreciated by all of us!!!!


Puna (who can sometimes get really adament on a subject)