Wolf this is not fair.

You are accusing an allied country of being guilty of someone's else crimes.

"since they use a para-military tribunal system to try ETA members"

false! where did you heard that? ETA members are judge as any other civilian according to our laws, NEVER in a military or para-military court!

Let me say that there have been ETA members living freely in the USA, even top-level members. This has fortunately changed from a time.

Wolf, american laws and court system are not the best, the unique acceptable, the perfect ones. Europe have another way of view the society model, not necessaryly better or worse than american one. Respect it!

I'm strongly against death penalty, no matter how horrible the crime. And I think this is a legitimate reason for not extraditating a criminal.

Yet, I agree with you that Europe, and specificly Spain, have had a soft policy towards these matters. Our governments should face reality and fight against this criminals, no matter the cost.

I think that people should calm a bit. What differences us from the terrorists is that we trust in justice. They have to be courted and then, if found guilty, jailed. We can't jail every suspect just for our pleasure.

Fernando

There are those on this board that are of the mindset that under no circumstance is the death penalty a viable alternative. To those who feel this way (and I think this is entirely appropriate on this board), as apparently the Spanish government feels, what would you suggest is an appropriate punishment, and one that would allow as much atonement for crime as possible, for someone or some group that kills 5000+ international civilians (check the death tolls and you'll find more than Americans there...)???

I await your VIABLE, APPROPRIATE solutions...

My viable and appropiate solution: Jail them forever. That way in the case you jailed an inocent you can reverse to a point the condemn.

Death penalty is a medieval penalty. The first of the Human Rights Cart of New York is the right to live.

Here lies the conception of state and penal system. In the US the penal system is directed toward the punishment of the criminals, while in Europe and most countries is directed towards the recovering of the criminals for the society.

I may be right or not, is my opinion and I will hold it unless someone convince me it is wrong. I hope it would be respected.

Fernando

CaliBasco,
Justice is the solution. This crime, like the one in Oklahoma City cries out for justice, and in this case it must be as final as that meted out to the 5,000 who perished under the towers.

Incarceration does not do justice for the people who perished and their loved ones.
Incarceration is a humane way to treat human beings who are mad or who made a mistake in the heat of passion. bin laden and his ilk are no longer human beings, when they committed their atrocity they became ghouls.

Yes, I agree with those that the death penalty is the only way for a society to transcend the premeditated horror of ghouls such as bin laden.

Fernando,

Europe isn't looking at the facts. Over 84% of those who are imprisoned for felonies in Europe, end up going back to prison a second time, for commission of at least one more felony. Making matters worse, these second offenders are 11 times more likely to commit a murder during their second felony, than a first time felon. Adding fuel to the fire is the fact that these felons who have served time, and were released, are nearly 20 times more likely to commit a crime against a person, as compared to first time felons.

These are facts, related to prisons, that the U.S. has long since found to be true. Prisons don't reform felons, they turn them into even more vicious people, who have no conscience. They are more violent, and anti-social than they were in the beginning.

Wolf

The death penalty as a viable alternative?? That sounds like an oxymoron to me. Why not just say the death penalty is OK as long as it's administered humanely. Now think about justice as administered by the Ruling Powers in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia.

There are some crimes that are so horrible as to be beyond human comprehension. Now I read in the Newspapers about how we should avoid mistreatment of the remains of the 9/11 Terrorist Hijackers / Murderers once they have been identified (by exception - no positive DNA matches) and the whole situation disgusts me.

In the case of the 9/11 Terrorists, I am for the death penalty for any co-conspirators. No 'humane' administration of death penalty would be appropriate. It's time for a more horrendous, slow and torturous, painful and visible administration of a death penalty. Then the remains should be subjected to ultimate desecration: rendered and buried with the remains of pigs. Let those who witness our wrath will learn the fate that awaits them at the hands of their enemies in what some of their leaders choose to call a 'Jihad,' but which began with a series of unprovoked attacks by Al Quaida terrorists on civilians at their workplaces. Let the rest of the Taliban and the Al Quaida and their leaders know what they have gotten themselves into. Show them that it's a path to Eternal damnation, not a Stairway to Paradise as their leaders would have them believe!

If anything less is meted out, they will interpret it as a sign of weskness. We are working off different 'sets of rules' here. Much of the quoran (Koran) is the same as several of the books of the Old Testament. The fundamentalists still use those as their guide. Why shouldn't we derive precedents for our retaliatory actions from the Sacred Scriptures?

As for the remains of those terrorists who died: They were not 'Soldiers;' they were Terrorists and murderers of innocent people, trying with a coordinated attack to destroy the western world's financial heart and the resolve of the greatest nation that ever was. Let's find out what would be viewed by their fellow Taliban or Al Quaida to be the worst fate that could befall the remains of those bastards, and then let's do it, very publicly. If that means desecrating those remains in the eyes of the Mullahs, so be it! Tell those who remain: Abandon Hope! You are destined to suffer the same fate as those who went before you!

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Eddie ]

I like Fernando's view about lifetime imprisonment.

Hey Fernando, I am not meaning to put you on the spot or the confront you about it, I just want your opinion, since you are a Spaniard. Do you think these guys, if the Spanish Govt has the proof that they are terrorists, whether they have killed or not, will prevent them from going free and causing havoc? Basically I am asking will the Spanish government do something that will allow these people to strike, if that is what they want to do? That's all I'm concerned about. I don't care where they are tried, so long as they are no longer a threat

I have an odd sense of daja vu. (heavy sigh)

I'm sorry this heats up again MM

It is just that I can't stand that the positions are not yet clear. Terrorists are terrorists, common people is common people. Accusing a democratic country of cooperation with the terrorists is quite heavy. Dismissing a terrorist group of barbaric murderes like ETA as poor separatist basques is also quite heavy.

To answer Michael's question: In Spain the executive and the judicial powers are separeted and independent. The government can't do nothing to free terrorists but short their penalties in some special cases when noone has been killed. The judges are the ones who have to investigate if someone is guilty or not, and if there are enough proves to condemn him.

To be more concise: No, I can't think of any reason for the spanish government to free a terrorist or a colaborator, nor with the current status of american-spanish relationships. Spanish government is very interested in being a prime ally of the USA. If it is necessary they will modify the laws.

Let the judges do their job. I'm very confident in this issue. Al-Qaeda has no support from spanish society (that is 0%). If the people already imprisoned is declared guilty, they will jail them for a long time.

Besides, I have asked my father about this issue (he is both an engineer and a lawyer) and he has told me that in this special situations both governments can agree to extraditate criminals under certain conditions (for example keeping them from being killed by death penalty). Otherwise our government would be breaking the 15th article of our constitution, which says that the death penalty is abolished according to the Human Rights Card.

Wolf: Will you bet that USA have less crime than any Europe country? If I'm not wrong is just the opposite, USA has more crime. This means nothing, but I wouldn't say that a system is better or worse. Each civilized country lives according to what they think is the better way to do it. As long as Human Rights are respected, I have nothing to say about a system.

Regards, and please keep on discussing calmly, as civilized people we all are.

Fernando

Fernando,

You're absolutely right. The U.S. crime rate is much higher than Europe's. But the gap is narrowing every year. What I was indicating is that the U.S. has found that criminals who are let out of prison rarely become model citizens. We recognize that in the U.S., and it's time that European nations face that same fact.

What concerns me most is that free nations should not try to impose their standards on another. As an example, putting clauses in extradition, if there are substantial grounds to indicate that a person is guilty of a serious crime in a friendly nation. If the world is ever going to reach a concensus on being equal partners, these barriers must be removed.

As I indicated, I am against capital punishment, but because it's the law in the U.S., I can lobby against it, but have no right to dictate my view as the law, when the majority of people accept it.

For extradition purposes, there is no reason that the issue of capital punishment should be an issue. The laws of the U.S. were broken, and it's up to the U.S. to punish the offenders, not the right of Spain, or any other nation, to dictate to us, how we can prosecute, as long as Spain's judicial system indicates that the defendants are indictable.

To show you how stupid the rules of law are, between nations, I'm reminded of key ETA people living free in France. When Spain issued warrants against these people, they would be arrested. The problem was, they would not be extradited. The reason was simple. ETA members, wanted in Spain, would carry a hand gun with them. When they were arrested, they would have to face charges in France, for carrying the hand gun, before France would consider extradition. Then, these ETA members would be granted bail, and set free. Somewhere between that time, and when they were to go to court, they would disappear. Spain never got them.

Recently, France and Spain have agreed that they would overlook the gun charge, and the person would be extradited immediately.

Yet, despite those foolish situations, Spain, and other nations, would handcuff the U.S. by refusing extradition, and most of these criminals would walk away, and disappear.

Wolf