JJP:

I have to say I'm with Wolf on this one. I like the bumper sticker!

However, JJP, I think there may be more to your "P.S." than you realize. I'm not into conspiracy theories either. Unfortunately, however, I know many of them and a few are in my own family.

Therefore, I've been educated on MANY of the conspiracies, in detail, from JFK assasination, to Aliens, to George Bush senior, etc. I've read alot of credible evidence (or so it seems) and alot of crap too.

Nevertheless, I'm certainly not against conspiracy ideas, and alot of it is interesting to listen to and/or read about. I have an open mind to it all. However, since I don't know the complete facts, it's difficult for me to take a strong position either way. Also, it's difficult to differentiate between the credible and the junk.

My analogy to people who "believe" in things they can't prove or that are not tangible, is the question that many conspiracy buffs ask:

"Do you believe in Aliens?"

My answer is: We would have to be an ignorant and arrogant society to assume that we are the only intelligent life in this massive universe. Therefore, I would tend to believe that there probably are alients somewhere. However, I've never seen one, so I can't stomp my feet up an down and swear that there are aliens (like so many fanatics) when I've never seen one, nor have these people that believe so strongly.

It cracks me up that some people can take such strong positions about something they don't totally know about. These people simply read about the "Roswell government cover up", amongst other related UFO cover-ups (all alleged) and assume they are absolute fact, when they don't know for sure.

Anyway, how does this all relate back to the Bush family? Well, as you mentioned the CIA, yes - President Bush senior was the head of the CIA for years. In fact, there is testimony by several witnesses involved that Bush actually helped to fund and enhance drug traffic to our country in the 70's and 80's, because he personally benefited from it (financially). There's also conspiracies that Sadam was our puppet, and we originally put him into power (Bush senior heavily involved).

It goes on and on ... as you probably know. Yes, we've done alot of wrong's in the Middle East and even some that could clearly be construed as criminal activity.

Therefore, I too, hope that the quick and sudden choice for a tribunal solely on the part of George Bush, Jr. is not a ploy to protect the testimony that would otherwise come out in a public trial and potentially harm that family and/or the U.S in general. Agreed! That would be sad, and in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of the motive.

Most "anti-government" conspiracy folks that I know are heavily against the Bush family. Big time! Thus, I wonder why. There must be some truth to some of the information. As they say ... "Stereo types don't get created out of thin air. There's usually some truth to them."

Interesting. Anyway ... gotta run.

edr

Wolf,

It's too bad you felt the need to personalize my opinions. Your feelings that I consider mine superior is certainly unfortunate and wrong.

As an American I have been angered at the lack of compassion many in this world have shown for our loss. Many around the world, although not publically or diplomatically, have felt "we had this coming, and we deserved these attacks for all the injustices we comitted." What garbage - no one can justify the loss of 4000 inocent civilians!

Wolf, instead of viewing my opinions as elitist and arrogant, maybe we should all think about the root problem (America's not the problem, but our complacency for oppressive governments could be part of it...). Sure, anyone that was part of the September 11 attacks should be brought to swift justice, but this won't in and of itself prevent future attacks.

There is a silent but growing rage in this world, and we as Americans are its target. Many around the world believe "American arrogance to be its cause." Is this right? Are they technically correct? I hope not. But it exists, and to think that simply bringing them to this country for American justice will solve our problems is short-sighted.

I will defer all other points... Sorry my post rubbed you the wrong way, but there is truth to it. If not, why do all us Americans find ourselves the target of growning discontent, rage, and anger?

If Americans continue to believe we are saintly and infallible, and don't collaborate with our civilized world partners on justice, it will only be one more reason the rest of the world despises us for what they all see as "that arrogant, fabulously rich nation unwilling to be a team player in the world..."

"...I realize that my personal agenda is not at issue here. What is at issue is justice."

I read your post again, Wolf, and find it sad you need to attack my points, personally. I have no agenda but to try and understand why differences exist between Europe and the U.S.

"With any luck, in Europe, they would get about the same penalty as they would if they littered."

Sure, justice is at stake, but I'd be interested in further understanding how you can believe American justice is superior to Spanish and European? OJ Simpson does live in a Florida mansion, and not a Federal Penitentiary...

...just a thought.

JJP,

Your statements related to how we're viewed in the world, aren't a revelation. Yet, when you tell about all our "underhanded" methods, you forget to mention that the vast majority of the free world nations supported our efforts in the past due to the cold war which has been over for just over a decade. Leaving that fact out is convenient when it comes to trying to state your point of view, but hardly covers the whole truth, does it?

As for "conspiracy theories," I learned at least two or three decades ago that below like to blow smoke, if it will create something that people want to read, or watch in movies, or on TV. I also know there are people in this world who watch TV shows, then for some unknown reason begin to believe that the fantasy world they saw on the tube is actually reality. From this fantasy, we get the majority of our conspiracy theories.

My belief is simple. When you state a point of view, offer up the opposite point of view as well, so people can determine for themselves, which side of the issue they stand on. If you don't offer up both sides of an issue, it becomes obvious that you either don't know the entire issue, or are afraid that the opposing point of view is stronger than yours.

Example: You say that our laws and the way we apply them is "dranconian." You indicate, through inuendo, that our judicial system is so corrupt, and inept, that it rarely, if ever, gets a verdict right. That's crap and you know it. Here's the definition of Draconian;
------------------------------------
Function: adjective
Usage: often capitalized
Etymology: Latin Dracon-, Draco, from Greek DrakOn Draco (Athenian lawgiver)
Date: 1876
1 : of, relating to, or characteristic of Draco or the severe code of laws held to have been framed by him
2 : CRUEL; also : SEVERE <draconian littering fines>
--------------------------------

So is our system generally cruel? Severe? Gee! I thought that was what it was all about. To get the garbage that would harm people off the street. Yet, you make it sound like it's cruel, in-as-much as we torture and mistreat people. That hardly washes, unless you see a "conspiracy" behind every decision made in a court room, by the Supreme Court, Appellate Courts, and in every law passed.

I'm sorry! The U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights, three branch form of government, and our Judicial system is used as a guideline for the majority of free nations in the world, that have done their best to follow the system, as best they can.

Being against capital punishment does not warrant either of us the right to say the system is failing, just because we disagree with capital punishment. What rings true, in the U.S., is the fact that the majority opinion of people applies to both the moral, and judicial law system. If people who are against capital punishment keep throwing out such rediculous statements like "draconian," as a way of trying to win our battle to change the laws, we will never win. Instead, use facts, not inuendo to prove your point.

Yes! There's a certain unfair treatment in our courts. Those who have money get good attorneys, those that can't afford the high powered defense attorneys get very little help. So, are you saying it's different in Spain? Germany? France? The UK? No! It isn't. Money buys the best. It's just the way it is. Tell the truth! It's the same everywhere, not just here, because it fits in the framework of your personal opinion.

As for the US being the rich kid on the block, it's true. But who are we? Our roots come from all these nations you refer to. Hundreds of thousands of Americans send money to families in foreign countries. The biggest part of our budget, outside of the military, is spent trying to help other nations who are having problems. Because we set down certain requirements for these nations, does that make us a bad guy? Hardly! It means we're realists. We believe in something, and stand up for it. As a result, people take our aid, then spit in our face. Why in hell don't they spit in our face first, so we don't have to give it to them? Because they know we're an easy touch, and "Uncle Sam" just "gives it away."

Our support of bin Laden. Man! Did you forget that was during the cold war? Almost every European nation, and NATO gave him, and others help. It was a period of free world vs communism. You better study that issue before you start using "hind sight" as a way of showing us all, how bad we are. Technically, if I wanted to play the "political card," I could say, "Oh! So you supported the Soviet Union? You're a Commie?"

What is this "silent and growing rage" you're talking about? The rage within the Muslim extremist community? Hell! That's been there for years. They hate everyone who doesn't believe what they do. They can lie, kill, and do anything they want, and we're supposed to feed and burp their babies for them.

What do you think a terrorist group wants to hear? They want to hear the very things you stated. It gives them aid and comfort. So, if you stand in favor of burping their babies, go ahead. My opinion is we should destroy the framework of terrorism, and make it totally impotent, so there are no longer babies growing up, taught in schools intended to form hate, and future terrorists.

Of course, when the attacks strike closer to home for you, my guess is you'll become a lot less "tolerant" of the crap that is happening.

Wolf

JJP,

The O.J. Simpson case is only one of a multitude of cases that hit the courts. Whether or not we agree, or disagree, as to his guilt or innocence doesn't matter.

It's like people saying he was found innocent. That's not true. He was found not guilty. There's a big difference. It says the prosecution didn't prove their case. In the civil courts, he was found guilty as hell.

As for where he lives, etc., it's not for us to judge. If he meets the requirements established in his civil court findings, it's not yours or my concern.

Was he guilty? In my mind, yes. Why was he found not guilty? Judge for yourself. I have my opinion, and others have theres. The problem is, after reading the transcript of the trial over several times, I found that the defense used nothing more than confusion to try to persuade what was obviously less than brilliant jurors, that the DNA, etc, was tainted, and didn't work. Yet, since then, these same attorneys have stepped forward in criminal courts, and said the complete opposite, when it came to vindicating their clients, and implicating someone else.

But! Do not use that case over and over again, to point out the shortcomings of our judicial system. It says the opposite of what you are indicating. It says, that in the American system, even a guilty person can go free, if the supporting evidence does not prove beyond reasonable doubt, that the person is guilty. Not the opposite, like you indicate.

By the way. I didn't say European justice was better or worse than that in the US. I believe the system works about the same.

Here's a little "test" you might want to apply to yourself. You're riding with a friend, in a car you rented. The friend drove the car around earlier in the day, and you weren't there. You're stopped by the police, for speeding. For some reason, they want to "search the car."

Now for the kicker. Unbeknownst to you, your friend put a fairly sizeable amount of marijuana in the glove compartment when he had the car earlier.

Which nation, under which laws, would you prefer to be in at this point?

It might tell you just how "draconian" the laws are in some nations, when it comes to search, and any subsequent action. Personally, I'll take the US over any European nation, under these specific circumstances, for many reasons. You figure out what you would do.

Wolf

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Wolf ]

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Wolf ]

You are apparently too emotional to have a rational discussion about the differences between the United States and rest of the world.
My attempt was to avoid personal attacks, and you obviously wern't rational enough to go along with it.

The tragedy is that you are so defensive about our nation's authority you've revealed yourself to be just the type of American Europeans detest: Arrogant, imperialist, and unable to see the world from a non American's perspective.

Your arrogance to question my opinions, and lable them as onesided blew me away. You don't even know me!

If you had again read my original post I clearly stated I dispise conspiricy theorists. You obviously missed my attempt to avoid crediting this camp of thought. My thought is you became so enraged at views which don't match you own you couldn't even read the details of my post.

As for yet another one of your personal attacks on me regarding my experience and ability to speak with knowledge...again, you don't even know me. You see, it took living in South Africa and traveling extensively to understand that we Americans have a tragic inability to criticize ourselves and see the world from any perspective other than our own. This is where my three dimensional thought process comes from, and I continue rely on my experiences throughout the world to guide my thoughts. I don't watch TV for my information, Wolf (as you claim), but read extensively and pull from educated friends here in the U.S., Africa, Europe and Latin America.

You're arrogance is corrosive. And your ability to think of me as that type of American who fled to Canada during Vietnam is slander. It is I who is traveling to Spain this winter, unafraid of terrorists, and not ashamed of my nationality. And as for your comments "that when terrorism strikes closer to home...", maybe you should have know me before blatantly attacking me here on this otherwise civil message board.

A good friend of mine was on United flight 93, bound for San Francisco. He is dead! On September 11th I was in my office on the 26th floor of a high-rise in downtown San Francisco. There was mass panic in the towers when rumor spread through San Francisco that the "fourth" plane was on its way to our city and the government couldn't locate it. As I too, was streaming down the stairwell (like in NY) I kept thinking of a professional acquaintance of mine who worked for Morgan Stanley high in one of the WTC towers. He lived, and is emotionally wrecked, but he live. Wolf, that day I experienced terror to the core...

I am so sick and tired of your blatantly emotional and defensive chit-chat. Let's agree to disagree, and I'll do my best to avoid you on this wonderful message board.

To all,

Apologies for not addressing that last post. It was meant to for Wolf. I opted not to send him a private message becasue I believe he had blantantly attacked me personally in the last 2 -3 emails and I had the right to offer one last "public" thought.

This is not politcal message board, but rather a peaceful, civilized arena to discuss our shared love for Spain. For this reason, I have offered my rebuttle and have tried to put an end to Wolf's (in my opinion) defensive and emotional banter.

I hope to continue visiting this excellent website, and my introductions to others so far have been wonderful. I look forward to meeting new and rational-thinking members of this Spanish portal.

Hoepfully, this ridiculous sparring match is now over. Hopefully...

Jason

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

Does anyone else want this ridiculous thread closed?

<yawn!> (In my best, uppity accented voice...) Ohhh, I find this discussion QUITE tiresome. (end accent)

Could we please focus on "Terrorism in Spain"??

I agree with Asterault & MadridMan.

Wolf

And so the subject is PAU Thats Hawaiian speak for over and done.

Puna (whose's attempting to inject a bit of levity into this discussion as I have been as guilty as the next in "mouthing off" and saying my piece.)