it got back from europe and had the pleasure of visiting both barcelona and madrid. I must say that before i left i was completely paranoid about the mugging reports on the site. However after spending a week in spain i felt that my fears were unfounded. I was fortunate that the pple i met were nice and had a wonderful time exploring the amazing cities. Of course common sense applies and you have to be aware of things around you especially on the metro. Basically be alert but not suspicious of everything and everyone and you will have an excellent time.

What disturbs me most about the muggings... from what people have said here... that it seems to be predominantly done by people who more than likely are illegals in the first place, and is increasing rapidly.

To me, this would indicate that it's time for a police crackdown, and by sending undercover cops, with a supporting cast of well armed back ups into the area would do a great deal to clean out the hornets nest. After a couple of sweeps, they could easily have enough of them deported that the rest wouldn't be a problem, because most of these groups consist of cowards who are only tough when they have numbers behind them, to back their play.

Maybe it's time for tourists to start sending letters and emails to the Spanish tourist office. By bombarding them with complaints and concerns, they might be able to get a few cops to leave the donut shop long enough to do their jobs.

As an ex-cop myself, I take offense to police officials who fail to recognize that tourism is a major part of the Spanish economy, and do nothing. Until their superiors are bombarded with the threats of lost tourist dollars, and politicians whose jobs depend on being re-elected, obviously nothing will be done.

I was involved in a series sting operations like this many years ago in Chicago. It's amazing how toughies would begin to cry, and say they were "victims of circumstance," when they were looking down the barrel of a .357 Magnum in the hands of a police officer who had no qualms about sending them to meet their ancestors, if they didn't drop the knife in their hand.

Maybe we should consider organizing a letter writing, email sending, cop bashing, assault of rhetoric on the people who may force the cops to do something.

Just a thought. Every movement that involves change has to start somewhere.

Wolf (Royally POd)

For better or worse (usually better in my opinion) the strong arm of the law operates under a series of restraints. In this case the muggers cannot be deported because they don't carry passports, without which you cannot identify their country of origin. If you do not know their country of origin you do not know where to send them nor can you legally. It is also illegal to deport under 18 year olds. Of course it is frustrating in this case but these laws do protect the 95% of law-abiding immigrants who come to Spain and which the economy sorely needs.
In the square where I live (Santa Ana) we did organize a petition with the participation of neighbours associations, business associations and immigrants organizations. We got lots of signatures and the matter is now in the hands of the authorities - who have increased police presence in the area. It's still inadequate of course but it's better than nothing.
There are many other ways to address the issue - bombarding the tourist information centres or better still the Ministry is a very good idea (better than the Magnum I should add). I'll see if we can get something organized in which we can all participate. Watch this space.

Hey, count with me and all the people that I can find to join the effort to stop crime.
Unfortunately cops cannot do that much. They are not enough and turist is not their only concern but if they get a lot of complains and politicians think that they will lose turists I bet that they will create a new force, that means security for us and more jobs for people.

Barry,

I like your approach better than what we had to do in Chicago. It wasn't something I enjoyed, but when you have someone with a straight razor in their hand, you begin to realize that saying, "Stop! Police!" doesn't do much good. I have an 11 inch scar to prove that doesn't work.

I understand the dilemma on the age and country of origin thing. But putting them in jail, until they admit where they came from, makes sense. It would be their choice to be incarcerated, since they refused to offer the authorities the information they need.

As for the 15 year olds, if they don't have ID, and refuse to admit where they came from, I would see nothing wrong with considering them adults, and slapping them in jail too. After all, how can you really tell they are only kids? They could be older and look young. They could easily lie about their age.

I don't think it would take too long and the majority of them would be glad to go home, instead of staying behind bars.

The issue shouldn't be their rights as minors, or foreigners. The greater good is what should be served, and that is the protection of the Spanish people, and legitimate visitors. I know it sounds harsh, but the only way some situations can be handled is through drastic measures.

I'm looking forward to your posts and ideas, and I know there are others amongst us who will gladly follow your lead, along with myself.

Wolf

Well, actually, the first assault that happened to me from which I wrestled my way out of, was by a very clean cut Spanish guy, early 20s, with a blue short-sleeved collared shirt. Would of never thought he needed my phone so badly. So, once again, just be alert.

OK, how about this as a first shot in the campaign.
1. Go to the web page of the city council, www.munimadrid.es and click on buzón de sugerencias (suggestion box) and leave a message of concern.
2. E-mail directly the Madrid tourist authority at turismo@munimadrid.es and leave a similar message
3. Fax the tourist authority at 34 91 588 29 30
Your letter should decry the current situation and urge for the city council to do something about it - remember the police can't do anything without getting the resources and the green light from the council. If you can add any personal story or grievance, even better.
Below I suggest a model. If a native speaker sees this and sees any glaring errors or could style it better, please do so.

El motivo de esta carta es denunciar el número de atracos que se producen en el distrito centro de Madrid y que han alcanzado niveles inaceptables y incluso pueden peligrar el turismo en Madrid.
Dado que uno de los objetivos del Patronato Municipal de Turismo del ayuntamiento de Madrid es de promover y potenciar la presencia activa de Madrid en el mercado turístico, la seguridad ciudadana debería ser una prioridad.
Sin embargo la ausencia de una presencia policial en ciertas zonas - de Sol a Plaza Santa Ana y aldredores sobre todo - y el miedo que tienen los turistas a pasear por la zona, significa que muchos ya no quieren visitar la zona, lo que debe perjudicar el sector hostelero de la zona.
Sería una lástima que muchos extranjeros optasen por disfrutar de sus vacacciones en otra ciudad por culpa de una situación que dista de ser imposible de resolver.
Ruego que el ayuntamiento tome cartas en el asunto.

Good luck

WOW!!! L K what we have going on here!! Way to go, people!!

When in Peru for 2 weeks last Christmas/New Years, I saw they have (at least) two kinds of police; the regular police and on-foot TOURIST police. I was REALLY happily surprised to see this having had pre-trip jitters about my safety and that of my ladyfriend while there.

To me, this says Perú cares enough about their perception to the world as a safe & welcoming place and that the almighty tourism dollar is powerful enough in these poorer countries that they train special police to handle complaints and problems.

There were SO many machine-gun toting policeman around all the time at all hours that I felt totally safe....or scared to death. hehehe... They were very friendly to us when we had questions too!

Why can't the big cities of Spain have a squad of similar on-foot "Tourist Police" in the big cities at least?? Barcelona is getting a horrible reputation for having an EXPLOSION of pickpockets and some lesser, but still violent crimes and it seems Madrid isn't far behind.

All this said, I've NEVER felt UNsafe in Madrid or anywhere in Spain at any time of day or not, have never been a victim, nor have I seen a true or attempted pickpocketing there.

Take care and stay safe, Spain-lovers!

Saludos, MadridMan

Way to go Barry and Wolf - Barry's last post defines Exactly how one should go about bringing focus to a real problem - especially for a country where the visitor industry is one of the major sources of income. I've never ever had a problem anywhere in Spain - but I have witnessed attempts to rob others in - oh yeah - Plaza Santa Ana as well as a number of other spots. I really think we should all follow Barry's suggestions - Get those e-mails going guys!

I live in Madrid and never feft unsafe. Having said that, I wouldn't walk alone in some paths of El Retiro at night and when I'm walking in Puerta del Sol area I hold my handbag tighter that usual. This area is probably the most unsafe of the city (where you're most likely to be pickpocketed, drugs is another story). Watch out, there's a group of gypsy women (experts on pickpocketing) around the McDonalds in calle Mayor!