First of all I would like to give my kudos to MadridMan for having established a very informative site about Spain.
As an American who has worked on projects in northern Spain over the last decade & who has many friends who are educated basques, I would like to make the following observations :
The basque terrorists (etarras) are cowardly killers whose activities are funded thru the extortion of local businessman, kidnappings, and robberies.
Some of my friends are upper level managers in a basque run international company and have told me that they live in constant fear of violence against themselves & their families.
The etarras have a similar belief to the Nazi Aryanism which was promoted by Hitler in the 30's. They definitely are opposed to democracy.

Thanks for your kind words Rhonda. I'm glad that someone else has seen the reasons why I'm saying what I am.

I have heard the boom. I have seen the aftermath. I've been there. June 1990, Pamplona. I know the hate that ETA has, and I know why they hate. Perhaps my syntactic choice of the word "peace" could be bettered. Perhaps it isn't peace in our definition of the word that they seek, but rather "to be left alone" or be in "isolation".

You and I have the advantage of looking at this through third-party glasses, though. We can pretty much agree that Euskadi will most likely stay a part of Spain. Spain needs Euskadi and Euskadi needs Spain. That is why there will continue to be an ETA, and Spain will continue to live in fear, as Andy pointed out.

Until the work against ETA begins to amount to more than just a few thousand people marching in the center of town after a bombing, they will continue to flex their muscle. It has to go deeper than just a reaction to the violence.

Hello everyone
I just flew back home from Madrid last night. I am glad to be back in the US after the car bombs. The one in Madrid was the day after I left there for Cadaques and the one in Barcelona was on my last night there. It seemed as though the attacks were so random you weren't safe anywhere.

Spain is a beautiful country, it is a shame to see such horrific acts happening there.

First, I would like to commend all on such a level headed debate on what is certainly an emotionally charged subject. CaliBasco, I think your use of the term "peace" for what the ETA is seeking is accurate. Of course, ETA wants "peace" on its own terms. And when you stated that ETA wanted to force the Spanish government to "sue for peace", you were right on. ETA wants to force the governmnet to accept its terms, and is willing to push the level of bloodshed up until the government can't take it anymore. This is a cold-hearted tactical assesment of murder, but to the ETA, its war, and the government of Spain, its ministers, judges, police officers, army officers and 'collaborators' (pro govt. journalists and Basque politicians)are enemy targets. That passers-by get killed is a price that ETA hopes Spain will not be able to tolerate for long. On another point, some one asked if there is torture in the USA. Yes, there is. Here in Chicago, there is an ongoing investigation of systematic police torture. This alleged torture has led to many coerced confessions, some of which have been used to sentence convicted criminal suspects to death. Its been 'ongoing' for quite some time now, and I doubt any one will be arrested or convicted. Why? Because it was conducted or condoned at high levels in the police department and prosecutor's office, and the entrenched powers-that-be in this city (and they are VERY entrenched) won't allow the investigation to go too high up.

Yeah, Chicago is not the only place. It happens all over. What about New York last year? The police actually shoved a broken off broom handle up some guy. When cases like that actuallly make it to the press, you just know that there is a lot more going on under surface that never makes the light of day. It happens everywhere.

I've read with interest many of the comments here and, Cali Basco, there is, of course, two sides to every issue and, in many cases, both sides truly believe they are right. I would never disagree with that comment.

However, wanton intimidation, barbarity and out-and-out murder can never be justified. The following is a quote from Inaki Anasagasti, spokesperson for the ruling Basque Nationalist Party following the most recent ETA attack.

"They (ETA) don't care whether it's journalists, Civil Guards, Basque police, bus drivers or citizens. The important thing for them is destruction and that gets them nowhere."

Says it rather bluntly - the important thing for ETA is destruction - i.e. fear, maining and murder. ETA had a chance to negiotate and they choose not to use it - during the truce that was mutually agreed to by all sides. You do not negiotate with guns and bombs and this appears to be ETA's preferred method. As so often noted, the vast majority of the Basques abhor ETA, what ETA stands for and its actions.

I truly believe that perhaps ETA should be seen not as a politcal group fighting for freedom but as a group "hung-up" on the power created from use fear and random destruction. As a result I can't help but view the actions of both the Spanish and the French governments to quash ETA with 100% support.

[This message has been edited by Puna (edited 11-13-2000).]

brianv,

i know what you are talking about with the scary bars and graffitti about the ETA... it is so true tho that the young people are more openly supportive of the ETA than the older people... the older ones have to be more careful of that... but it's also the younger ones that carry out some of the acts for the ETA, to make their way into the organization..

when i first started going to spain i only knew about the ETA and the some of the political history of spain from my parents and grandparents... i had no real experience with it myself... but upon living in spain a while you see what is going on and you begin to understand it better.. a good friend of mine's father is a higher-up in the guardia civil, to the point where when tension is tight we would have guardia civil follow us when we would go out... this was mandated by her father...

she always carries guardia civil lighter to light her cigarettes with and she had given me a couple.. i didn't really know the impact of this until one time when i was with some other friends in santiago de campostela and i had this lighter with me witht the guardia civil emblems on it... some guys wanted to start a fight with us because they saw that... i can only imagine what would have happened had i been in pais vasco in one of those neighborhoods you spoke of..!! ¡[censored]! (perdoname Madridman...) how could they think we were "pro-guardia-civil," with long hair and tshirts?? it did not matter, just the notion that we might support the guardia civil... we did not end up fighting, but it is true that there are places where you do not talk about such things or show your "colors" in any way (or the wrong way)!

this is a very interesting thread... gracias a todos..

[This message has been edited by real_megia (edited 11-13-2000).]

The latest ETA "atentado" thankfully was not successful. If you're interested, you can subscribe to e-mail headlines at www.elpais.es. I get a daily front page, and of course check to see what's happened. This time they tried a booby-trapped device that didn't detonate properly. The targets were two journalists, who, coincidentally were escorting their 18-month old to daycare...

Puna, you are correct that wanton violence, intimidation, murder, and similar crimes cannot, to you and I, be justified. That's why we don't belong to ETA. Those who justify this behavior usually belong. I can simply "understand" that there is an opposing view, as, apparently you do.

real_megia, if you're interested in seeing how ETA gets its movement going young, do a search on google.com with the thread "jarrai". There is an interesting distinction between those "legales" who are yet to be "on the payroll" and those "liberados" who are bankrolled by ETA. You are right in that most of the "legales" are young. Most of the "liberados" are older and have much experience in the workings of terrorism.

calibasco thanks for the tip!

i am very interested in the phenomenon of terrorism and why it occurs... i am even more interested in the occurrence of it in "my" beloved spain... i don't want it to happen, of course, but to fight it it has to be understood...

i wonder where all of this will be in 20 years? will castilla (spain) ever give up its hold on pais vasco...? pais vasco is only part of spain now because of Franco, he that formed espania unida.. hmmmmm....

real_megia wrote:
"pais vasco is only part of spain now because of Franco, he that formed espania unida.."


It's curious, I thought it was part of Spain since 400 or 500 years ago

P.S.: I don't know if you were only joking.