Now we seem to be getting somewhere here. Thank you for your insight into the Spanish judicial system Connie. I agree that Spain has become a democracy, which by definition is "rule of majority" not rule of law. That would be a "republic". In a democracy, if you are the majority, you make the laws. A republic is similar to a democracy, but with accountability and morality added into the mix.

Enough PoliSci 101. I agree that conditions for Basques in general under Franco were exponentially worse than today. Thankfully, those conditions have improved greatly under autonomous rule. Nevertheless, to simply accept that the treatment by the government of Basques today is "pristine and clean" as you infer, would be to deny reality. Most Basques aren't involved in any way with the question of ETA (again, thankfully), but all are affected by the public perception of them due to this vocal splinter.

Even before ETA, public perception of the Basque people (going back centuries) has been one of curious misunderstanding. They speak a language unlike any other, have always been, until recently, fairly separated from their surroundings, and have kept a culture unique in the world. Many people simply fear the unknown.

Today's perception of the modern Basque is clouded by the dastardly deeds of ETA. At one point in my experiences in Spain, I found myself in the heart of Castilla, Valladolid. I told some acquaintances there that I had recently lived in the Bilbao area for a time. Their faces went solemn and they said "son todos unos terroristas allí". Of course this is false, but this is an example of the misunderstandings that have seemingly always existed. Something taken for fact that is simply not true.

This brings me back to my original point. To answer Castiza, no, I was not brainwashed by ETA nationalists; and while, as Brianvc pointed out, the demographic and economic conditions of the Palestinians may be different, I refer you to the similarity in ideology: To a Palestinian, the Israeli is a squatter who stole their land. To the etarra, the Spaniard is a foreign power who seeks to continue control of their homeland. I'm not sure how this could be any less similar.

I'm simply trying to understand their point of view, not join their group. By the way Connie, who pays the salaries of the nacionales?

On the subject of torture, in my inital post on this topic (I can't remember) I thought I'd mentioned that in Spain, you can be detained under suspicion for up to three days without evidence. Usually, it's during this 72-hour period that most of the beatings occur. Then the police have the alibi of saying that force was needed to subdue a suspect, or some other cuento chino. Can you prove that this doesn't happen? I can prove that it does.

Again, BOTH sides are wrong in these actions. Obviously one group takes it to the extreme, usually killing innocents, but they don't lie about what they're up to. When was the last time you heard of a bombing in Spain that wasn't attributed to ETA? Apparently they take responsibility for their actions. When was the last time you read in El País that an etarra was beaten or tortured while in custody. Someone isn't coming clean. This in no way validates the actions of ETA. But that was never my purpose in posting here.

Ooops...another long post. Thanks for bearing with me.

Okay, here comes the lawyer with a long posting: democracy and rule of law are not identical concepts, and I did not mean to say that. Democracy means the the power of government is vested in the people, republic comes from the latin res publica, public matter, and is used as a contrast to monarchy. The observance of the rule of law is a concept with both formal and material dimensions, which is equivalent to "el estado del derecho", "l'état de droit" etc. in other languages. The effective rule of law depends on the assurance of the supremacy of law, the independence of the judiciary, and the transparency of decision-making processes; it must also guarantee respect for citizen’s rights. It means that the exercise of State authority is not unfettered, but subject to law and justice, and judicial control.
What I meant to say is that Spain is both a democracy and a country that adheres to the rule of law.
For sure, you are right that the behavior of police officers is attributable to the Spanish State. The question is, however, does the State do all it is obliged to do to prevent mistreatment of prisoners? Does torture follow a systematic pattern encouraged or at least neglected by the government? Or can it be said that it is still a case of single incidents, that are duly investigated and punished?
It is an extremely difficult issue. In every polity however good and just, you will find misbehavior by state officials. The question is whether it happens unsanctioned, as under dictators, or whether the State uses all available means to avoid it.
What I must concede you is that your concerns are shared to a certain degree by Amnesty International: http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/EUR410011999?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\SPAIN
on human rights in the Basque peace process, http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aireport/ar99/eur41.htm is the annual report for 1999.
They also mention cases where police officers were convicted for mistreatments, thus the Spanish judiciary DID react.

I guess this gets back to our earlier discussion about prejudice in another thread. I too, heard a ton of anti basque rhetoric from Spaniards when I lived there. ALthough people may say they know eterras are only a small percentage of the basque people as a whole, they still hold them in general with enormous suspicion.

One of my friends was basque from San Sebastian, and I really felt for her and the way she always tried so hard "compensate" for her ethnic background - not unlike a lot of other people I have met in this country that are in groups that are discrimminated against. What an exhausting struggle to have to watch every single you say or do, so that people won't say "ah hah," I knew it. "they are all like that."

I feel so lucky to be able to be in a bad mood or just a jerk sometimes, and have it attributed only to me being a jerk, not justifying any sort of prejudice people have of my ethnic group.

As for the justice system in a democracy, the courts are very political. Very often people of a dominant culture make it very difficult for others to come forward within that system. Recent articles on the situation with the Los Angeles police department are case in point. I am not sure how exactly complaints are filed within the system in the Spain, but here, you have to go throught the police to file a complaint. When an aquaintance of mine in Kansas City tried to file a complaint against her boyfriend when he tried to kill her, she was both ignored and threatened. Her boyfriend was a police man..I doubt it is much different in Spain, monstly because people are people. flawed.

Also, torture at the hands of someone supposed to represent justice and democracy is so despicable, certainly hypocritical.

CAlibasco, I hope you are coming to dinner on Saturday, because you seem like a heck of an interesting person to talk to

You may want to check the Amnesty report on the US, which contains in fact more complaints (or rather different ones) than the one on Spain: http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web...7f?OpenDocument
Unlike the US, who never accepted the jurisdiction and scrutiny of an international human rights tribunal, Spain is member of the European Convention on Human Rights, whereby its citizens can bring complaints to an international tribunal, thus there is an additional level of judicial control by a Court composed by independent judges of different European countries.
And as a lawyer, I feel compelled to strongly stress that I refuse to believe that courts are always political. In a country with an independent and impartial judiciary, it is not true that judges always act in favor of the powerful. The huge majority of judges in countries of the Western world (I do not go into details here) DO take their task to bring about justice in accordance with the law seriously.
It is good to remain aware of the fact that public authority NEEDS control. But general distrust in the State and its judiciary is not helpful as such either. Remember the important role played by the US Supreme Court for example in the case of Brown v. Board of Education. The Court did not act as assistant of the mighty, but paved the way for the abolishment of racial segregation.

[This message has been edited by connie (edited 11-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by connie (edited 11-01-2000).]

Connie and Nicole: Two big breaths of fresh air! Thank you for understanding the entire reason I say what I say!!! This is definitely a charged topic, and you both seem to approach it with respect for other views, regardless of whether you concur 100% or not.

I am aware of specific attempts to bring those guilty of torture to trial. You make a valid point when you ask whether the tortures (I assume that others reading this believe me now when I say they DO happen...) that occur are "state-sanctioned"; meaning "is the state doing what it can to end this sort of behavior?" Is there ever really a way to know for sure, though?

Also appreciated was the treatise on the effective rule of law. I agree wholeheartedly, but how can we ever prove or disprove effectively whether these conditions exist in Spain? We know how things "used to be" under Franco, and like it or not, there are many in the PP who sympathize a little too much with Franco's intolerant behavior. The tell-tale sign of Franco is that he did his best to stamp out Catalán and Euskera from the schools in those regions, but did nothing to prohibit the speaking of "galego", which is spoken in his native Ferrol...

Thanks again, and please send more great links to other information. I'm already surfing!

P.S. Nicole-I'd like to make dinner, but I'll need to check my calendar...when's too late to RSVP?...I thought MadridMan was making some sort of reservation ASAP...

Connie, I do actually agree with you, and frankly, the US's position is not surprising at al.. I believe that most judges & police do take there jobs seriously, but people always fall through the cracks. Some places have better systems in place to prevent that from happening a lot, but it still does. Because, the system is held up by human individuals, that do not always do as they should (none of us do)..

Cali - Actually, miss madrid is making the reservations. I think you can just email her..

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-01-2000).]

My main worry is that when you compare terrorists and politicians the way you are doing, you're believing the justifications ETA gives to murder. The are not two equal sides of the story as you're saying; on one side there're murderers (not nationalist because the mayority of nationalists are peaceful people who want ETA and its world to dissapear) and on the other side there're the people who want to live in peace (nationalist and non-nationalists included) and who are fed up with this gang of criminals.

If torture has happenned it's been in few cases (are you sure US police has never tortured anyone? Maybe in some cases but I don't think it's the norm). The same happens in Spain, and if this occurs, none approves it, even the government. This is your biggest mistake is saying that torture is permitted or tolerated by the spanish government. Franco died 25 years ago (it was a dictatorship, not a democracy like now and things have changed a lot), so let's not get stuck in the past. Young people in Spain (less than 35 y.o. don't remember Franco but they've lived all their lives knowing what ETA does. In fact, the mayority of ETA supporters when it was born (and part of the basque church had a lot to do with it), now claim it to dissapear and some of them have had to leave the Basque country because they were threatened to death if they didn't keep their mouths close. Remember Yoyes who after being years in prison for the murders she had planned decided to leave ETA and live peacefully with her family, Eta didn't let "her once admired mate" change her mind and live her own live,so they killed her in front of her little son. The same thing has happenned even with nationalists who didn't like ETA's "mafia style".

I've been living all my live in Spain and have basque family so what I know about this reality is not only what I've read in the newspapers. You can feel on the streets, talking to people because ETA is an "open wound", we suffer whenever they kill someone. In Spain, they don't fool anyone, we know who they are and what they want but it's easy to receive "not very accurate" information outside Spain.

[This message has been edited by Castiza (edited 11-02-2000).]

Make no mistake about it: When I compare terrorists with politicians, I do so only to illustrate one point: Both sides are guilty of wrongdoing. I don't compare in order to "justify ETA's crimes". There is, in my mind, no justification for the shedding of innocent blood.

My reference to Franco was not to dredge up the past, but simply to note that there are those in the PP that have some roots in that ideology. I think Aznar is a good president, as I've stated already. As Nicole pointed out so well, there are those who honor their positions of authority, carrying out their duties with justice and morality. They are to be commended.

On the outside, torture is not accepted by the government. The truth is somewhat different though, and has been SINCE Franco. That's where his reference fits in. Most youths under 30-35 don't remember Franco, of course. Nevertheless, most of Spain's leaders are significantly older than this demographic. THEY remember...some even took part in that regime. That's where we have a conflict, and where some of the things that go on "behind the scenes" are allowed to happen, even if not officially sanctioned by the government.

Having also lived in Spain, as a neutral third-party observer, I know what you mean when you talk about the fear, and the "feel on the street". I've witnessed the manifestaciones when police are killed, as well as when a nationalist is killed. I know the Basques want peace. Unfortunately, there are two groups looking for "peace" and one of them has declared war in order to force the other to "sue" for that peace.

As Nicole pointed out, governments are made up of imperfect people trying to do the best they can. There are always going to be those with personal agendas in such positions as government and in the police. Our job as responsible citizens is to use legal means to change that situation and replace these people with those who would exhibit the integrity we expect from our leaders.

I think this thread is great...and this discussion is very interesting. Great thoughts on all sides...
CaliBasco...I salute you for actually bringing two sides into this discussion. It would be too simple for us all to sit here and bash ETA for killing people. I think you are right. There are definately two sides to every coin.
I do not support, encourage, solicit or like violence. In fact I despise it.
You've said in your last post that there are 2 groups looking for peace and one has declared war in order to force the other to "sue" for that peace.
Por favor! IF, on your way to work one morning you happen to cross the street and all of a sudden BOOM! You see smoke, fire, blood, bodies...you hear screams of terror... I mean REAL terror ringing through your ears...do you think that you would come back to this thread and tell us ETA wants peace?
Maybe you would. I don´t know. But murdering and destroying the lives of those left living seems a little counterproductive to me. Especially since the government continue to say on national tv that they WILL NOT talk, listen or have any communication with ETA while they continue to murder.
As well i am little confused on your point about the torture that Basques have received?
Does this constitute the brutal killings of so many people? Torture is not fair, but it happens. And i think we all realize that. It pretty much happens everywhere, whether we want to admit it or not. Ademas, there are MANY forms of torture. So it's fair to say there have been many groups of people tortured in the past(including groups in north america). That does not mean we should form terrorist gangs and run around killing people and destroying neighbourhoods.
It's absurd and uncivil.
A fight for lack or independence or sovereignty is one thing. It certainly is the other side of the coin. But your argument about the torture... i´m not sure that it has any place on the coin.
Saludos,
Rhonda

(I'm breaking my own "rule" by saying...) WOW! "That was a really good post" and this is an enlightening thread. I'm learning a lot about both sides of the coin so please keep this kind of discussion going for all of our benefits.

Saludos, MadridMan