I know this is off the (initial) subject but I can't*not* respond.

Kurt, are you crazy? Yes, the Bill of Rights provides for guns. It was also written over 200 years ago. Things change. Hence amendments.

Regardless of the fact that I grew up in Littleton Colorao, I have always felt strongly about this issue. Does it not faze you that elementary school children are bringing handguns into school or finding them in the home? It doesn't bother you that a surprisingly large percentage of US citizens keep handguns in the glove compartment of their car? What with the road rage these days, I find that very scary...

I don't care what people say, we *do NOT* have a right to keep handguns lying around the house. And if you think we do, I think you're irresponsible and a little insane. The next time my livestock are threatened by an oppressive government, I may reconsider...
In the meantime, pepper spray will be my self defense..

Your right to carry pepper spray is not guaranteed by the constitution. Therefore, pepper spray is unconstitutional. If you spray me with it, I may just have to sue you...

By the way, where did the discussion on Valle de los Caídos go...yoo hoo, Valle? where are you?

CaliBasco, I guess all GREAT threads must come to an end and it seems everyone has given their opinions and happy with that. Oh, it will pop up again from time to time, but hey, that's life & death of threads on a message board.

BTW, my ladyfriend was here with me this 3-day weekend and was reading the thread with GREAT interest. She was surprised that so many people (mainly about those from the USA) had such strong feelings about this place. She was also impressed with the amount of activity. Thanks to everyone who opened their hearts and brains to this very controversial & passionate topic.

Saludos, MadridMan

Well friends, As suggested I am reading "A Woman Unknown " by Lucia Graves and I'm 1/2 finished. I think Aphra originally suggested it and it's wonderful as well as an informative insight into The Civil War and mid-20th century Spain. The mailman just dropped at my door " Homage To Catalonia" by George Orwell. It is supposidely the best book written on The Civil War. But again this is a western outsiders view into Spain's internal problems. I'll be back to comment I'm sure. This thread is too good to end in my opinion.

Short Answer: Find the bus and go! Do not miss this historic site.

I have been there four different times and have traveled over much of Spain.

It is a place that will cause you to catch your breath. In fairness, learn the history and acknowledge the value of this monument; although it now stands for something quite different than Franco intended.

I should let you all know it wasn't Reginald Denny who said 'can't we all just get along' it was Rodney King.

Thump...thump...that's the dead horse being beaten.

Billy ski:
May I suggest that you add to your reading list "The Spanish Civil War" by Hugh Thomas. Objective, thorough, and most enlightening. Probably the book and author I respect most on the topic.
Cantabene

Cantabene: I will go and get it today based on your powerful recommendation. I finished "A Woman Unknown" and for that I must thank Aphra. It was a moving story with many insights from the common people in Spain prior to and during Franco's regime .It substantiates all I have read rgarding Franco.I am presently working on Homage to Catalonia by Orwell.By the time I am finished with this topic I'll know more than the American Civil War. Anyway, Thanks Cantabene and I'll be back to report to the board when done. Regards,Ski

In the 1930s, the US government was nearly overthrown in a Fascist attempt to sieze control. Included in the conspiracy were those who controlled most of America's wealth and industry. One of the people allegedly involved was Charles Lindbergh.

To help them in their attempt to wrest control of the government from FDR, they tried to get retired Marine Corps General Smedley Butler to march on Washington, DC, with an army of veterans from previous wars. He would march, then they would sieze control, and dictate US policy.

Smedley stepped forward and told his story to FDR and his people, who immediately took action to "mend fences" and stop the Fascist movement from taking shape. The threat was so real that they even kept it out of the newspapers... which were aligned with American Fascism.

It was just months later that the Spanish Civil War started, and the Fascists in Italy, Franco, and Hitler, all knew that the US would not intervene. In fact they knew that the US would not support the Republican stand against the Fascist takeover directed by Franco out of Morocco, and two other Spanish Generals whose forces were garrisoned on the mainland. They also knew that the US would "demand" neutrality by our sensitive allies in England and France.

Why did we do this? The reports out of DC indicated that we felt that Fascism & the Nazis would actually turn against the Soviets and put an end to Communism. This may be partially true but the strengths that the Fascists had with the near overthrow of our government and the fact that FDR was now catering to them had more to do with it than anything else. Face it. None of the conspirators were ever brought to trial, or even charged for what happened.

In the US, if you belonged to any labor union, or even were a farmer who was part of an organization that was trying to get help so you could survive during the depression, the American newspapers, definitely swayed in favor of Fascism, would denounce your group as Communists.

In 1934 or 1935, a group of farmers marched on Madison Wisconsin in an attempt to get fair prices for their products. They were aided by the American Legion. The entire Hearst newspaper chain, along with all the rest, immediately branded them as Communists, and that position stood, even though the American Legion was involved.

So... simply put... we supported Fascism.

Meanwhile... in Spain... prior to the revolution that was to begin (or should we call it an invasion since the Italians & Germans were also deeply involved), there were absolutely NO COMMUNISTS holding high positions within the government. Of course, according to the reports, anyone who was a union member was automatically a Communist.

The US position on Spain allowed Josef Stalin to step in and offer support. Of course his price was steep. The entire gold reserve of Spain was sent to Moscow for "safe keeping," and to pay for any military aid he sent.

After talking to dozens of people who actually fought on both sides of the issue in Spain, it was evidently clear that the only way a Republican could get a weapon and ammunition to carry on the fight after the beginning was by declaring their allegiance to the Communist party. They did it only to get weapons, and would have never allowed the party to control them or the country after the war was over.

For those who didn't take an oath, they were sent into battle situations that were no better than suicidal. A message to others, that joining the party was the only option.

It's a shame we didn't support the Republicans with US equipment and advisors. There is little doubt that they would have become a Republic just like we are. Please don't say we're a democracy, we are a Republic. We elect people, and those people make the decisions. That is a Republic. Just like Spain would have had, if we'd helped them when we should have.

When you're in Madrid, visit the museum (Sofia) where the Gernika, by Picasso hangs. Then, if you will, a trip to the city itself, located in Basque Country. The pictures at the Basque assembly tell a story of an atrocity that was so damnable that even some of the Italian soldiers who marched into Gernika shortly after the bombing took place were grief stricken, and some shed tears.

"No Pasaran!"

Wolf