King Phillip´s Lisp

OK, it seems that there are many board members who are linguists, so maybe you can help me with this question... FERNANDO? TARAVB?

I was once told that the reason that the Spaniards (Andalucia apart) pronounce the "c" and "z" with a "ceceo" (rather than the "seseo") was because King Phillip had a lisp. At first the Spanish public thought it humorous, but did not want to make their dear king feel stupid, so they began to pronounce the letters "c" and "z" with a lisp as well, hence the evolution of the "ceco" in Spain.

Has anyone else been taught or hear the same story? Is there any truth to it?

I think it is just a legend

Keep in mind that people from Andalucía were far apart where the King lived, and it is very improbable they heart him speaking.

As I learnt, the "ceceo" is unique from certain parts of Andalucía, and its origin is said to be the incorrect corretion of the "seseo". That is, the sevillians knew they were speaking with "seseo", tried to correct it, but they then pronounced all the "s" as "c". It is very funny and charming to listen them, their way of speaking is just unique and wonderful (though the "ceceo" is not correct in linguistical terms).

Hope this helps.

Fernando

Wait a minute...I thought Queen Isabella had a lisp also.

Hi--
Thanks for the compliment, Chica, but I'm not a linguist, I study child development--though I did hear the same legend at some point. It always struck me as really funny...just imagine the courtiers all whispering behind the king or queen's back, "Gosh, I guess we had better try to keep him/her from feeling silly for that lisp...hey, let's all use one ourselves!"

It seems like the sort of legend that is fun to repeat, but is likely to be untrue...after all, nobody was afraid to "tell it like it was" about lots of other royal flaws ("Juana La Loca," Mad King George, etc.).

I just did a search for "spanish king lisp" on Google, and came up with a few instances of the legend, and this refutation by various linguists. The basic point is that the legend is wrong, but the explanation of why is quite interesting:
http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/11/11-2186.html

That said, one of my very favorite Spanish words is "cenicero," or rather "thenithero"!

Tara

Thanks for posting that link Tara. It was, in fact, a very interesting read. I got transported back in time to my college phonetics class!!!

signed,
your fellow Yuengling drinker!!

Definitely a cuento chino. But as we all know, la leyenda siempre es mejor que la verdad...

I also heard the legend when I went to the US but I strongly believe it's a made up story to justify the different Latinamerican pronuntiation. I think it's not know at all here in Spain, even a member of my family, who is a Spanish linguist, didn't know anything about it. It doesn't explain why if that King Phillip had a lisp, it was only applied to words with "c" or "z" keeping the "s" sound when written with "s" or which one of the 5 Kings Phillip was (the current prince of Asturias will be Felipe VI).

I think the "s" instead of "c" or "z" sound has more to do with the influx Extremadura, Andalucia and the Canary Islands (where the "s" sound is prevalent)had during the discovery times. Well know are the extremeños conquistadores.

About "seseo" and "ceceo", the former is accepted by the Spanish Academy but the latter is an overcorrection,as Fernando said, and it's considered incorrect. You can listen well educated people "sesear" but "cecear" is typical low-class ineducated people.

So what you're saying is that Northern Spain is "uneducated"?

In my opinion, whether it may be "correct" or not, ceceo is just another pronunciation change in the evolution in the Spanish Language.

Middle English went through the same change during the late Middle Ages and the beginning of the Age of Exploration. This was called the Great Vowel Shift , which gave birth to Modern English. This also explains why certain words in English have more than one pronunciation.

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: CS ]

CS, I think you misunderstood me.
Cecear is overcorrecting the "s" sound and it happens when someone who usually "sesea" tries to (wrongly) correct himself and uses the "z" sound. For instance, he will pronounce a sentence such as "Yo sé que sueles sorber la sopa" like "Yo ze que zuelez zorber la zopa".
It's not typical from Northern Spain because they don't "sesean".

I understand now.

LOL! They must sound weird to those who use "ceceo". I can just picture it now. :p


[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: CS ]

The most (in)famous for overcorrecting are the gaditanos (those from Cádiz). On many an occasion have I crossed paths with a gaditano and heard them introduce themselves by saying: "Yo thoy de Cádis"...whoops!

[originally posted by cantamal on 01-17-2002 05:23 PM...]

If he had a lisp and everyone was made to copy it then wouldn't the "S" be pronounced as "th" along with the C and Z?
Wouldn't Salazar be pronounced "Thalathar"?

Or Salsa would be "THalTHa". Can't be, unless it was a selective lisp.

What do you thay?

Cantamal

And I KNOW my friends in Salamanca said "thenithero." Were they wrong, according to the Spanish Academy?

And what about "Madrith," which I heard often as well?

Cenicero is as you've posted it: thenithero...

As for the Madrith...the "d" in that position is pronounced like the "dth" in "breadth" or "width". So "Madrith" is actually "Madridth"...the tongue makes an ever-so-brief interdental poke in order to make that sound...wow, interdental, sounds funky, huh?

Taravb, let's see the different pronunciations for cenicero:
"thenithero": standard Castilian Spanish. It's NOT "ceceo".
"senisero": with "seseo". It's accepted and you'll be likely to hear this in Andalucia, Extremadura,the Canary Islands and, of course, LatinAmerica.

An example of "ceceo" with the word "Salamanca":
"Salamanca": Standard pronuntiation.
"Thalamanca": This is "ceceo". It's not accepted.

About the word "Madrid" I guess it's easier for some people (madrileños especially)to "help themselves" with this "dth" sound (soft th) instead of pronouncing only the "d". We speak fast and I think this is one of the reason for that "irregular" pronuciation. However, if you go to Cataluña, the'll pronounce "Madrid" as "Madrit".

Wow, thanks! I am glad to know I haven't been mispronouncing all those words (well, in any way other than my American accent!). I have felt the tendency to do the ceceo, though, when I am speaking very quickly and the sentence contains a combination of C/S/Z. That gets really tricky, as I have trouble switching rapidly between the interdental and the regular "sssss" sound.

It reminds me of trying to roll the "rr," which took a long time to learn!! I had a teacher who told me to say, over and over again, "pot of tea." After a while, it becomes "para ti," with a nicely rolled little r in there. It's not the "rr," exactly, but it's a good way for Americans who can't do that to get started.

What letter sounds in English give Castilian-speakers the most trouble? I notice the little "es" in words that begin with "s" (esmall rather than small) sometimes. Why is that such a hard thing to learn, when Castilian speakers don't seem to say "esalamanca"? Is it "s" followed by particular consonant sounds?

Tara

Tara: The problem with the "s" is when it is followed by ANY consonant.

Castiza: in Extremadura there is no "seseo" (nor "ceceo").


Saludos.

I teach English here and spend a good deal of time focusing on pronunciation with my more advanced students.

Castillian speakers (and Spanish speakers in general) seem to have difficulty in differentiating between the long and short vowel sounds for example beet and bit or he´s and his. The sounds are "too similar" for many students to differenciate immediately.

Of course the venerable "s" sound is also difficult. I coach my students to think of a sssssserpiente so they can get the "hissing" (but not really hissing) sound down right.

Any other English sounds out there that present difficulty for those who speak Spanish as their first language?

Francisco, not all extremeños "sesean" (and not all andaluces) but I asure you I've heard a lot of them "sesear".

The difficulty about the initial "s" is because we don't have the "s"+consonant in spanish, it's always vowel+"s" at the beginning of the word.
Another problem, as Chica pointed, are the vowels sound. We only have one sound for every vowel (just 5 sounds!)and it's more difficult to learn what you don't have in your language.
In our language structure is very unusual to see so many consonants in a row (is this correct?)without vowels in a word, we're not used to it and that makes it hard to pronounce for us.

About the "rr" sound, just imagine an engine starting. There are a lot of tongue-twisters, such as: "El perro de San Roque no tiene rabo porque Ramón Ramírez se lo ha cortado". Good for exercising!

A lot of practice is really needed to get the rr-sound right. I usually think of a line in a song: ... de rrrodillas te rrruego no me dejes así...

[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: Tia ]