Pronunciation of "ll" and "v" in Spain?

I've been brushing up on what little Spanish I learned a long time ago, and have been listening to tapes in the car. I'm hearing some differences among the speakers on the tapes with the "ll" sound. Some seem to pronounce it simply like the English consonant "y" sound (Marbella - Mar-bay-ya), but others seem to pronounce it like a combination of the English "l" + "y" sounds (Mar-bail-ya). The "l" isn't pronounced very strongly, but it's definitely there. What will I hear in Spain?
Also, is "v" usually pronounced like the English "b" in Spain?

Hi GG2! You will find here in Spain that the pronunciation of the Spanish "ll" will vary from region to region. So both sounds that you have been hearing on the tapes are correct. A third way that it is pronounced is with a soft "sh-j" sound as in Mar-bay-shyah with a very very soft emphasis on the "sh".

Yes, the Spanish "v" is pronounced as the "b" but again, a little softer emphasis on the "b" sound.

I notice the "sh-j" sound Chica mentions in words like "llover," in particular.

And the "b" and "v" are quite similar to the American ear.

Good luck re-learning Spanish! My father-in-law, who is an educational researcher, says that whatever you can remember after 5 years sticks with you forever, so that's a consolation!!

Tara

Thanks for the help. I'm fairly fluent in French and Italian, which is both a help and a hindrance when trying to bring in Spanish. Not so much the French, but the Italian seems to want to come forth instead of the Spanish. Tara, I believe your father-in-law. The last time I went to Mexico without any review of Spanish, after a day or two I found I was just somehow able to ask questions, respond in a basic way, understand a lot more than I would have thought, and read a great deal. I think recognition is always easier than recall, so just being surrounded by the language brings back things learned long ago.

Hey, Chica...are you sure you aren't living next door to some transplanted Argentinos? Especially in Segovia, you won't hear the "sh-j" on the double-l...it does exist in Spanish, and as much as the "Argies" want to say they speak "castellano", the castellano in Castilla (verdadero) doesn't provide for the "sh-j" sound.

The comment on regional differences is accurate, but in all my travels throughout all of the regions of Spain (save las Canarias and las Baleares), I have yet to hear a Spaniard use that ("sh-j") pronunciation on the the double-l. That's just my two euros' worth...

The "b" and the "v" are pronounced exactly the same in Spanish. I remember, when in primary school, our teacher stressed the "v" sound (she pronounced it like the english "v") in dictations to make the difference but it was just to make us learn the correct spelling. In fact, there's no difference between them.

The castilian pronunciation of the "ll" is similar to "l" + "y" you were refering. If you know Italian, it's also similar to their "gli" pronunciation in words like "biglietto" or "battaglia". Definitely, the "sh-j" sound is tipically Argentian.

Calibasco and Castiza...I know what you mean about the Argentinian...definitely if the "sh" is really pronounced, which is why I said that is it said very very softly.. almost aspirated.

But then again what do I know? I could have easily heard an Argetinian speak and not realize it... or perhaps I am recalling my father´s "Filipino-Spanish"

I guess you hear the sound more in a palabra like llover as Tarav says. Or, it could just be my crazy accent in Spanish which sounds everything BUT American!!

Yeah, who knows...one Spaniard I met (but keep in mind, he was very drunk at the time) thought, after I told him I was from Florida, that I was French. Maybe my castellano has a French accent.

But I think I heard a very tiny "sh" sound too, Chica, even among the people I met in Salamanca (and are they ever proud of their castellano there!!). It's more like an aspiration, as you say.

It's interesting how all of our ears are attuned to slightly different things, isn't it? My husband and I had a disagreement just this weekend about whether the reader of a book on tape had a slight Irish accent. I heard it; he didn't!

Just FYI, because it always intrigues me...developmental researchers have found that very young infants can discriminate sounds that we adults (and even toddlers and older children) cannot. For example, tiny babies in Japan can discriminate the English "r" and "l" sounds, though it's qiute difficult for Japanese adults to do so. That ability is lost within the first year of life!! Discrimination of non-native vowel sounds disappears by 6 months, and discrimination of consonants by about 10 months. This is true for American babies listening to all sorts of foreign languages, including Native American languages, languages from India, etc. It makes lots of sense developmentally, as babies learning a language for the first time need to be able to perceive lots of different people's voices without thinking they are each saying different things--mom says "bottle," dad says "bottle," and it would be really silly if baby took each of those initial "b" sounds as completely different things, just because mom speaks in a higher pitch--it's more economical for baby to have a range of acceptable "b" sounds in his or her native language, while ignoring subtle variations that are not linguistically relevant. (There we go...what Tara does for her day job!!)

Tara

[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: taravb ]

One thing I've been thinking of since my last post is that as far as regional languages go, you could of course hear a variation. For example, in Galicia, they say "Qué chove" for "vaya lluvia"...not knowing gallego, but knowing what the person is talking about (what else do they talk about in Galiza but the rain...) you may "hear" certain things that are particular to that individual or region. I think you're right on in your last post, Chica.

Ok academic spanish here:

There is a difference between "y" and "ll". And y is always pronounced as a "i" (like in english in the word "you"). The "ll" is similar but with a soft "ch" sound (in the case of argentinians is a strong sound).

The use of the "y" and the "ll" varies from country to country and from region to region. For example: In Valladolid is used perfectly but in Madrid we pronounce the "ll" as a "y" (wrongly).

The "v" and the "b" are different letters with the same sound (exactly). In some places are wrongly distinguished.

Note that there is only a single correct spanish, but it is not the spanish from Spain though (even here the differences between Canarias, Cataluña or Galicia are very hard). There are things that are accepted as correct, for example the pronouncing of an "s" in the place of a "c". Southamericans, canarians and some andalucians pronounce the "c" as a "s", while the rest pronounce it as a "c").

Hope this helps.

Fernando

Anyone know the languistic history behind the differences between Spain and most all other Spanish speaking cultures???

As a Californian I hear the Mexican dialect often. They, like most all Americans (as in the continent), pronouce "c" like an Engligh language "s." Also, the origins of the Argentine "ll," as spoken with a strong "chhhh" ??? Is this all just a process of the language migrating, or are there more interesting reasons?

I'm curious if there is a social or historic reason. It can't just be that it's a lazy interpretaion of "pure" Spanish. Did Americans loose some of the etiquette in the empire building - or has there been an effort to speak differently???

All very interesting to me because in some ways Mexican Spanish, for instance, can be "older," or more traditional, than what is used in Spain. Any comments on this? For example, Americans tend to stay in the "formal" more often, and many of the words still in use are considered archaic by España standards.

An interesting contrast!

Here are my early observations in Valladolid- They take great pride here in their Castellano, and it seems to be well respected by most Spaniards.

"ll" seems to have sound that is somewhat closer to a l-y sound. Although, with a more opened mouth than we (English speakers) would say it, so it is slightly raspy sounding.

"g" Also seems to differ from Madrid as well, more of an "h" sound.

Following the arab invasion of Spain there was a Reconquista (reconquer of the Península).

At that time there were 5 major languages in the peninsula: galaic-portuguese, astur-leonese, castilian, navarro-aragonese and catalonian (of course with wide varieties and with the basque remaining in the basque counties of the castilian county).

As the Reconquista progressed, those languages were extended southward, but one of them was more powerful (perhaps economicly or politically) than the other four: the castilian. Therefore, the castilian occupied the influence zones of the navarro-aragonese and the astur-leonese languages. With the time, it also became one of the languages of the rest of the Peninsula (except Portugal that became independent in the early stages of the Reconquista).

Therefore, today we have castilian spoken in almost all Spain, influenced by those ancient languages in every region (bable is a dialect of the astur-leonese language, there are dialects from the castilian very influenced by the navarro-aragonese, the ancient catalonian, and the galaic-portuguese). The galego and the portuguese directly descend from the galaic-portuguese (thus the name), and the modern catalonian, the valencian and the mallorquín are all dialaects (and languages) from the ancient catalonian.

In the south the influence is from the ancient arab. In the north there are some celtic and french influences. Since we were invaded by the visigoths, there are words that come from their language, etc...

To understand why in South and Central America they speak as they speak you have to understand several things. First is that the most of the ancient spaniards who went there came from the Castilian Kingdom or the castilian part of the Spanish Kingdom (the Aragonese Kigndom navigated through the Mediterranean Sea, they had their influence zones separated). Also that all the ships that went to America parted from Seville (where they use the "s" as a "c") and made a stop in Canarias. Therefore americans have that peculiarity (and others).

When the independence of the spanish colony came, there were only 100.000 spanish-speaking citizens in all America (yes! that few!). But these citizens were the most powerful and rich ones, so the rest of the natives quickly learnt spanish to reach higher in the society. The spanish extended to almost all the population, gaining big influence from the native languages in the process.

Then, in the last centuries, other europeans went to the spanish-speaking countries (for example english and italians to Argentina, therefore the musicality of their spanish, or people from the Netherlands to Colombia and Venezuela).

Why the spanish from Mexico is both arcaic in some ways but also more influenced by english?

There is a simple explanation called the "onion theory" (for its layers). The "center" or core of the language is, and was, Spain, and the rim or the external layers are the american spanish-speaking countries. When a change is made in the core, the external layers are the last which receive and adopt it, the reverse situation, when a new term is adopted in the external layers (the english of the USA being the most powerful influence for this countries) the core is the last layer to adopt it. Thus, you may find the most arcaic terms and both the newest ones in the spanish of Mexico and other countries.

Fernando

Now THAT was a post! This is one of many reasons why I'm addicted to this site. Fernando - thanks for the info on the contrast between "pure" Spanish and the differences found in the Americas.

Jason

I agree with JJP! Fernando, NOW that I know you personally after meeting at the "MadridMan Party: Ver.4." I'm even MORE impressed with your postings! They're SO insightful, SO well-structured, SO clear and full of facts, so detailed and mature. And all this from a young, early 20-something! My god! You really are incredible.

Someone make this man the president of their multi-national corporation or Human Rights Organisation FAST!! Thanks for your (and EVERYONE'S!) input! I've learned so much about the language I love to study and understand.

Fernando, you're amazing!!

Tara

Ups! I don't know what to say

Thanks, but it is unmerished You just pulled one of my flaw points: history of the spanish languages

Fernando

Wow, this is certainly an interesting topic. I saw a show on a tribe in New Guniea and they said that there are over 700 languages between 100,000 people. This fact makes me realize that if no language were dominant in Spain that it would be pretty messy. Truely, I'm sure that is the way it was in most European countries, although I don't know for sure. All of these former Latin speakers languages became localized and they evolved into different languages and dialects. At some point I think it is beneficial to have one language. Although in catalonia their language is part of their heritage and culture, I think it is great they still speak castillian. I guess the way everyone learned Castillian because it was the most dominant at the time is somewhat similar to the way people all learn english because it is the most dominant.

Well, great post Fernando,

PS, I will be going to Vallencia pretty soon here on the 16th, but I will be going to NYC to stay with a friend on the 10th, so I am getting packed up now. It ain't easy packing for 8 months, but I am resolved to keep it lean and mean. The last time the airline put a tag on my bag that said "get help to lift"