Permanent move?

Would you follow your significant other, who you have a serious relationship with in the US and who is a Spaniard, to Spain when you do not have a job or are not enrolled in school before your permanent move to Spain? There is a possibility that there can be a future together, but that's not guaranteed.

Would you risk your financial and emotional security here in the US to move to Spain with your significant other?

Why? Or why not?

Your thoughts on this subject matter would be greatly appreciated!

Ingarrison,

Your decision will obviously be a very personal one, so I'm not going to suggest one thing or another but I will give you a few things to think about.

First of all, how serious is the relationship? Have you been together for a long time? Do you see yourself spending your life with this person? Personally, I think I would only consider a permanent move if there was a real commitment like engagment/marriage. But, other people may see it differently.

Another thing to think about is that if you aren't married and you move to Spain you'll be living here illegally (unless you have EU citizenship also). Living and working in Spain illegally is possible, but it may not be something that you want to do. Even if you are here legally the job market is tough in Spain, and you'll most certainly be making less money that you would be in the US--which is something else to think about.

Also, have you spent much time in Spain? Do you feel like you could live here? Before I moved here I had studied twice in Spain and visited several times. After these experiences I was totally in love with Spain and in my mind thought it was some kind of Utopia. Now that I'm living here I realize my ideas about Spain weren't all correct. It's one thing to study or visit Spain, but it's a totally different experience when you're actually living here. Living in a different country definitely has its ups and downs, and I think a lot of people just couldn't do it. You'll have to decide if you're one of the people who can adapt well to living abroad.

You can always give it a try for a few months and see how it goes because,of course, you'll never know what your experience in Spain could be like if you don't give it a try. Anyway, I don't know if this will help much, but these are some of the things that I would consider if I were in your shoes.

Meg's questions and comments are very wise. Think about them carefully!

I would not do it - based on my history of packing bags and changing countries of residence much too quickly, and also my marriage to a Spaniard. Instead of moving there, why not try visiting your significant other in Spain as much as possible? You can get an excellent idea of what life there would be like, what it's like to be with S.O.'s Spanish friends and family, if S.O. is somehow different when in Spain (it could happen). You yourself may be somehow different when in a foreign country, and you both would need to know it. It would be much less drastic than leaving everything and being a foreigner in a different country than your own. If things went sour in Spain and you lived there illegally and knew few others besides S.O. and company, it would be VERY difficult for you. After a few quality visits and some real heart-to-heart talks, you could consider it again.

Good luck!

Thanks for the comment! I lived in Cadiz for a few weeks then moved to Barcelona for a year. My SO and I meet out here in the US. We both live here in the US right now, my SO is thinking of moving back home permanently.

I've been back to Spain twice this year and my only hesitation to move permanently there is that although the Spaniards are lovely people in general, they are those who are still not use to extranjeros. (I am Asian-American and it was sometimes difficult to explain that 'yes, I am an American'...but then again I still have that experience living here in the US!)

You are right, we would be making less money, but the life style there is much more social, something we both agree is important in raising a family. We also both agree that it's not about the money we make, but how we live.

Are both of you Americans permanently living in Madrid? My neighbor from college coincidently married a Spaniard and is living and working in Barcelona, but got engaged before she moved and found a job while she was there, but she was almost guaranteed the job before moving to Spain. I think her case was a very special case!

If you married a Spanaird but decided to stay in the US, why did you?

It sounds like you have done a lot already towards making the decision, something that wasn’t clear in your earlier post. If you can either work or get into a school, then I’d say go for it. It’s the idea of going and relying only on S.O. that I think would be too risky.

As for being a foreigner in Spain, that’s something that will never change, regardless of how well you speak the language and how much you immerse yourself into Spanish life. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, and if you can accept the fact that you will always be a foreigner there because of your looks (I’m in the same boat!), and understand that you will still be treated well 99% of the time, then it’ll probably be OK. (Being treated like an inferior because I’m female bothers me a LOT more while I’m in Spain, but that IS changing, and isn’t much of a problem in the more urban areas.)

I’m convinced Spain is a better place to raise children, and I agree with you that that is more important than having a higher income.

I’m in the U.S. due to several family-related issues. I consider my time here temporary, and hope to return to Europe to live in a few years.

I am so glad you posted this topic, as I am in the very same situation. It is more than difficult. I met my S.O. in Madrid in October of 2003. I was just there for a week vacation and had no prior history with Spain. We've done the long distance thing ever since -- I went there for 6 weeks and studied Spanish 6 hours a day, he came here for 3 months and "hung out." We make bi-monthly trips to see each other. I don't love Spain, he doesn't love the U.S. But we love each other. So what to do? I really struggle with the "can I give up my life and identity and move to another country" question all the time. I have a good, stable job - an attorney - I own my apartment, I have a good group of friends, and speak spanish like a 10 year old. He doesn't have a great job, doesn't own his apartment, has a great group of friends, and is fluent in english. So practically speaking, it seems more logical for him to move here. Except that I feel it kills a little part of him when he's here -- it takes away that part of him that is so Spanish, which is part of what I love about him. I know he'd move here for a few years, but he's got "spain on the brain," meaning we'd be moving back there at some point. And I worry about the isolation. I didn't see that many Americans when I was there (other than college students) and I can completely understand that even after learning the language you'd still feel like an outsider. But then I can see positives about life in spain as well -- all I have to do is pick up today's Washington Post and I am ready to flee the U.S. borders. Anyway, I've nothing constructive to say except that I share your situation and love to hear others experiences as well. I want to so badly to believe true love wins out -- but, maybe I'm a little old for such naivete! ;-) I will say that I had a friend who had lived all over the world and found living in Madrid difficult because she was Asian. She told me people really had a different and difficult reaction to her because of it.

I am going to throw my two cents in here for what it's worth as I think my situation applies to both the concerns expressed by llewilli and lngarrison.

I am an American married to a Spaniard and moved here to Spain the day after our wedding (going on 4 years next month). I am also Asian-American (maybe Amerasian is the better term since I come from a mixed background) and have established my own business. At 37, I am no "spring chicken". I also left a very good paying job in the States to move here. So, you can see how I identify with each of you.

I never feel that I have to justify that "yes, I am American, despite the fact that I am not a blue-eyed blond. I also think that most Spaniards are cultured enough to understand that not all Americans are.

Was it easy? Is it easy? Life isn't easy, whether you are living in the States or in a foreign country. I have dealt with everything possible here...suing a former employer, health issues, starting a business... Would I have dealt with these things living in the States? Who knows?... Maybe yes, maybe no... that's what life is all about. What has been important for me is having a partner who has been with me every step of the way.

You both write that you have a S.O., as both Meg and Diana asked, how significant is your S.O.? Do you see yourselves sticking out through thick and thin? More than where you are living, what's important is the quality of your relationships.

That said, Meg wrote some wise words. Think long and hard about your decision to move here. Like her, I had spent a year studying here while I was in college. College life and vacationing here is nothing like living here on a day to day basis.

My spanish is fluent which has made my transition that much easier here. However, I know plenty of ex-pats here (American and otherwise) who are carving out a life for themselves and do not control the language (yet)... that comes with time. My husband was open to living in the States, but my level of Spanish and his non-level of English pretty much made the decision for us. We knew we loved each other and wanted to be together, regardless of where it would be.

For what it's worth, Asians aren't unknown here in Spain. There is quite a large and industrious Chinese community in my neighborhood (in Madrid). I wouldn't let your racial/cultural background hold you back. I would be more concerned about the stability of your relationships before whether or not you "look different". Be yourselves, be friendly and integrate and you will see how the community will welcome you with open arms.

Wow, very helpful and uplifting Chica. Really appreciate your two cents. Believe me I've thought long and hard about my S.O. and our relationship. I was married before to my college sweetheart and that ended in divorce - an amicable parting, but divorce nonetheless. Thus, I take no long term relationship decision lightly. That is partly the reason why I am analyzing the hell out of this decision before I make it....A few questions for you: where did you grow up/live in the states; were you fluent in spanish before you moved; how did you meet others in the american expat community; what neighborhood are you in, chamberi?; how did you come to have your own business -- did you have a background in business or did your husband; what did you do when you first arrived in Madrid: how often do you make it back to the states? Madrid would be my new home. And I actually really like Madrid and miss it sometimes. I've moved all over the U.S. so I don't feel necessarily tied to one place. But I am a social person, so good friends are a must. I was able to make friends easily - one scottish girl and one asian/american -- while studying at International House. But what I found is the people are only there for a while and they inevitably move. Anyway, I'm rambling and there is no structure to my post at this point. So I'll end for now. But I'd like to hear more, perhaps everything you have to tell, about your experience. Thanks.

Hi llewilli. Glad to know you found my post helpful.

Without getting heavily personal, I was born and raised in the Philadelphia area. I had a fairly fluent level of Spanish when I moved here. I had a double major in college one of which was Spanish. I have met expats through many different activities, including a monthly women's dining group which I organize here in Madrid. I decided to start my own business because was frustrated by the very tight and difficult job market and the subtle discrimiation towards married women of child bearing age. In the States I had worked in sales/marketing/fundraising/event planning. I travel back to the States about once a year. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

I totally understand and respect your thoughts regarding a second marriage. And would never encourage anyone to rush into anything whether that be a marriage or an overseas move.

Meg brought up a really good point in her post and one that I fully agree with. Unless you have EU citizenship, living here with your S.O. will not make you a legal resident of Spain. So, while yes, it is possible to find a job, your employment opportunities will be very limited and you will always run the risk of being taken advantage of. Right now, Spain is going through a legalization process of the current illegal immigrants that have been here for the past year and can demonstrate employment and an employer willing to sponsor them. I think once this legalization period is over, things will become more difficult for the individuals residing in the country without the legal status. It's something that you should think about.

Just a few other suggestions to anyone else thinking about moving here. Don't do it without sufficient planning and saved funds. I recommend at least $8,000-10,000 saved that you can access while establishing yourself here. You don't know what roadblocks you will come up against, or how long it will take you to find gainful employment. Don't make the move here if you have excess personal debt whether that debt is a credit card or student loans. It's very very difficult to make enough money to support your life here independently as well as pay off your debts in the States.

Good luck with your decision!

Wow this has been an interesting thread for me to read. I see myself being in your shoes 2 years from now. Like many of you I studied in Spain twice and fell in love with the country. But my situation becomes all the more complicated because my current boyfriend of 2 years is from Mexico. We met when he was studying abroad at my home/usa university, and have been together ever since. Doing the long distance thing has been hard, but we both feel its worth it. We will be together again this coming year as we will both begin graduate school at the same University (USA) this fall. We got lucky it worked out! However, deep down I know that come 2 years from now, we will have a big decision to make. Deal with it when the time comes I suppose.
Good luck to everybody, its a tough situation!
kelly

Thanks again for the advice. Right now if I went to Spain, my plan would be to take six months to study Spanish, perhaps get CELTA certified, and volunteer. I would have to obtain a student visa for those 6 months and that is how I would stay in the country. I know I can't make any decision about Spain until I speak the language because it's hard to live anywhere, even in paradise, if you don't understand what people are saying. I think studying and volunteering would enable me to meet people and build some sort of support network or small group of friends. I wouldn't make any long term decision until after doing that. So I'm not so much worried about the relationship issues as I am the cultural adaptation issues. And I always like to hear others stories about adapting to other cultures. Because even if you love a place, there are also things that bother you about it. Thanks for the info! Oh and I wanted to add that I think it's a good point you made re: the fact that we face hard choices in life and relationships wherever we choose to live. Very very true.

Well I gave up my good job, sold my house, left my country to move to Spain for my relation, but took my cat :-). I don't speak Spanish and still learning, don't have a job ore a penny, but I haven't been sorrie for a second. Not everything in live is about welth, money and standards I discovered. Yes it can go wrong but I also can be hit by a car and die tomorow. I learned a whole new part of life and I'm very happy with that.

Hi llewilli and Chica!

I am sorry that I am getting to this post a little late!

I am in the DC area, we should get together and have a Spain ex-pat night...(we're actually planning a paella party for the first week in June, so please write me an email).

Anyways, my boyfriend does have Spain on the brain. He has lived out here in the US/DC area now for almost 8 years and he is ready to go home to Spain. He has a place already in Madrid...we would both rather live in Barcelona or Vallencia, but for now, Madrid would be the place to go to get our feet wet.

We are talking about moving to Spain. I think he is more serious about moving back than I am. He knows that he'll be able to find a job and he will probably get a reduction in salary, but we've decided that the quality of life is worth the pay cut.

As for me, I know that it will probably take a while to find a job and get residency to actually work. I am thinking of taking some classes to brush up on my Spanish (I studied Spanish in the US and studied at the University of Barcelona for a year) while I wait.

We are both aware of the fact that he would be the only bread winner in the family for awhile if and when we move there. I have student loans to worry about, but the minimum payment is miniscul.

I also think if we were to have children, I would rather raise them in Spain than here in the US because of the way I see his parents interact with him and how his siblings interact with their children. The culture of life is so very different over there then my experience over here.

Despite being Asian and having had problems in Spain when I was there in 1999-2000, I think that Chica is right where it depends on how strong the relationship is.

I think I would be sad in leaving my friends and family in the US, but I hope we make enough money where I would be able to go back to the US at least once or twice a year....

I guess the worst case senario is that I move back to the US and hopefully our relationship would survive that. But I am hoping that I will eventually get use to it...

This is my update....Feel free to email me! Check out my profile!

Hi llewilli!

I got your message in my email but I'm unable to write back to you since you have your email hidden. So please write back to me with your email. I would love to met up with you and chat some more!

Ingarrison wrote: I imagine the email you received was an email notification of a Private Message. Wasn't there some text at the bottom of your email which stated this? It probably said something like "Do not reply to this message. Instead, go to your Private Message Box to reply".

So, if you go to your Private Message INbox (click on your "My Profile" link to find it), click llewilli's Private Message to read it (again), and then you can reply with a Private Message.

Saludos, MadridMan

sorry MadridMan, she is not accepting private messages either. I've already tried that.

Woops, I didn't mean to not accept private messages. I'll try to change that. Okay I will send a private message with my email!

Wow, this topic is so interesting and I hear people saying things that I have often thought. I too will be in the same situation in not too long, but I feel lucky that my Spanish fiance is as torn as I am. We both went to school here in the US and now live and work here. We are getting married next summer in Madrid and will probably move to Spain for a few years so he can get his MBA: I echo the words that living in Spain is completely different than studying in or visiting Spain. I think so many people study in Spain and enjoy themselves with other Americans, and so many times equate that with loving the country. I did that too, but now that I am marrying a spaniard and have spent extended time with his family, I know that life there is not as easy, nor as great as it was when I studied in Spain. Yes, the culture is different and spaniards can be rude like the rest of the world. One thing that I have noticed is how difficult it is to infiltrate a group of friends in Spain. Even though I speak a decent level of Spanish, when I am with a group of friends in Spain, most often I am ignored or forgotten because the conversation rarely involves me. Many people expect that spaniards will be so interested in your life as an American, but in reality they really don´t care too much and will not make much of an effort to find out about you or your life. I am not saying that Spanish people are wrong for this, I am just saying that the move it is not going to be as easy as you might think. For me, I too often worry about my ability to make friends when I move to Spain, and I do see that to be a challenge. But overall I think the social and family-oriented culture is what really makes Spain so wonderful. Anyway, I am not sure how much sense I am making here, I just stumbled upon this post and wanted to add a few of my thoughts. Good luck in all of your decisions´!

Congratulations Escarabjito! I hope you have a beautiful wedding!

When I lived in Spain, I did my best to have only Spanish friends and still talk to them today. I know it was difficult to make Spanish friends because the Spanish community is very tight.

If I move to Spain, I feel that my significant other's family would embrace me. They were very warm everytime I have meet them. My SO calls his family every weekend and I am lucky that they are interested in talking to me as well. I am lucky to have a SO from a very opened minded family where most of his relatives have lived and worked abroad so they try to be sensitive to the different cultures.

Occasionally they will say something that is not PC about Americans or Asians or Asian Americans, but I definitely correct them and they don't mind the criticisms! I know ther might be an issue of fitting in.

As per my conversation w/ another Madridman memeber, I think the questions to ask oneself before moving is:
1) Is is financially possible? Is there student loans, credit cards, etc...that need to be paid off?
2) Can you find a job, will you be able to pay off these debts with or without your significant other? Is she or he willing to participate in your financial matters?
3) How close are you to your friends and family in the US? Are you ok w/ seeing them only once or twice a year? Would the distance be a huge issue in your life?
4) How much of your independence can you give up? Are you willing to do this in this time of your life? If and when I ever move, I know that for the majority of the time, at least in the beginning, I will be totally dependent on my SO.
5) How emotionally strong is your relationship? How emotionally supportive is your significant other?

I am sure I have other questions to ask myself before I make the finaly decision to go but these were the major questions we were discussing and could be food for thought for those who are about to make a permanent move.

The other questions I would ask before moving is:

Do I really love my signifcant other for her/himself or am I in love with just the sterotype of the Spanish culture?

Do I expect my SO to behave a certain way because s/he is Spanish? If my SO was American, would I still love his/her behavior and who they were?

Granted, being Spanish, like being American...permeates the the very soul, but personalities in all cultures have very similar nuances.

We can either find the bad habits of a person endearing or annoying in any culture.

A short history of my family’s plans to move to Spain.

We were married in Madrid ten years ago.

Initially we planned to live in Spain but my wife, never having lived in the US, wanted to live state side for a few years, brush up her English, get U.S. experience on her resume, etc.,etc.

A few years later our son was born.

This necessitated a decision to either buy a flat in Madrid or a house in the U.S. House wins. We extended our stay in the U.S.

Our son starts school. A few more years pass.

Our son announces he has no desire to learn Spanish and would his mother please stop speaking to him in Spanish. Wife retaliates and takes son to Madrid for the summer and places him in a Spanish immersion program (he has dual citizenship). He hates the whole experience but now can swear in Spanish with great alacrity and has picked up some shocking racial slurs about gypsies.

Wife becomes serious about moving back to Spain. We consult headhunters, the consulate, friends, etc. about jobs.

The job situation is bleak.

We are told that with luck we would earn approximately half of our U.S. salaries. At the same time Spanish housing market takes off. My wife’s old one bedroom piso in Chanmartin sells for $750.000 U.S.

Plans to move to Spain officially abandoned.

Hope this real life experience helps.

Old-Gringo, your story only confirms what I think about my friend's kids here in the Midwest: They don't want to know anything about their parent's culture; don't want to learn Spanish; and feel embarrassed when their parents talk to them in Spanish when their Anglo-Saxon friends are around. But I think, this applies to all kids descendant of immigrants. The kids are just trying to fit in. Eventually they will mature and (hopefully) embrace their roots.

I just met an engineer from Venezuela, descendant of Italians, who was transferred to the U.S., years ago. His now teen-aged kids were born here in the U.S., and when he told them about going back to Venezuela, they wished him good luck and to come and visit them as much as he can...that was their attitude and final word, I'm serious! He ended up staying here.

Going back to the subject...Yes, the move to Spain is totally complicated: Jobs scarce, wages are low, housing is expensive, bureaucracy is huge, etc., etc., if people like your wife find it difficult to go back to Spain, I don't want to imagine what a foreigner has to go through to succeed in moving to Spain. .

I agree, I just think teenagers rebel against anything that their parents think is important, whether it be spanish, school, or keeping a clean room.

I think we read a lot of negative stuff on the board about how difficult it is to move to spain, find a job, a house, get all the papers processed, etc. But, I guess my question is why should it be easy? I mean why would we expect any different? We've practically made it next to impossible for people from other countries to come here and work (earning a decent living and with health care) and live. Plus, I think it depends upon how important it is that you make the move, what you are willing to sacrifice/change/adapt to, and that list naturally gets smaller when you have children. Many moves within the U.S. are just as difficult and cost prohibitive -- the sticker shock I experienced moving from Arkansas to San Francisco was enough to make my heart skip a few beats. But it is important to remember that there ARE people on this board who have successfully (whatever that means) made the move to Spain. So, I'm keeping the faith Old Gringo...maybe when your son hits college age you can say adios and you and your wife can kick back on the beach in spain. ;-) I bet he'll want to learn some spanish then....

The thing that killed it for us (at least short term) was the convergence of a substandard wage scale, high taxes and an outrageous housing market.

If you are younger, just starting out, without financial obligations or responsibilities, these things may not be an issue. If that is the case then you are lucky, but for most of us, these things become issues very quickly.

Oh of course, of course - substandard wages, high taxes, and outrageous housing markets are all big factors when considering where to live. That would be the reason I live in DC now instead of San Francisco. That is also why I said if you have children your list of what you are willing to sacrifice/adapt to, etc...gets shorter. I completely understand your point. I have plenty of friends who loved living in the city, but once children came along, a house in the suburbs was about the only practical option. At the same time, I don't have kids, I am not married, I can sell my condo...so I am just trying to keep the faith alive. Call me naive!

Not necessarily...

I moved a year ago from DC with my three-year-old and SO to Madrid. It was precisely the fact that I have a child that was the "straw that broke the camel's back." I have never lived in the suburbs and I never will.... And it was becoming increasingly unsustainable to raise a child and have a relatively sane lifestyle in big a US city.

All of the same things that have happened in the housing market in Madrid have happened in DC--with one notable exception--the rent in Madrid is much, much cheaper than it is in DC. We were lucky enough to buy a house there before everything went crazy, so we rent our house out in DC, pay our mortgage and pay our rent here. Our health insurance (private) is one sixth the price that it was in DC. My son's preschool is free and excellent and one block from our house (versus the more than $1000 per month we would have paid in DC for a lesser, more far-flung private preschool). We've been able to go back to school--something we could never afford to do in DC--because the university here (Complutense) costs around $1200 a year.

But most of all, Madrid is--in my opinion--a better place to be a child and a parent. Children are fully accepted into public life and are welcome anywhere. Materialism/consumerism is much more in check, there are a lot more cultural activities for children (and adults), and there is a lot more support available for parents. You can get by on so much less here, mainly because the best things about this place are virtually free... When you have kids here, you are really part of the community. You don't have to make any special effort, it just happens naturally.

My goodness! I snooze on this link and there's a whole conversation I am missing!

My SO and I live together in the Washington, DC area. If he wants to stay in the US, we would have to stay in the East Coast because it's closest to Spain. He has a nice career in the software engineering field.

For me, I am switching careers. I was on the "lawyer" track, but got "sideswiped", so I'm up to do anything right now. I have no issue about career because I don't have one. (so sad!)

My SO has a condo in Madrid and is currently paying for both our rental apt here and his condo, so he needs to make a choice to either rent it or move back to Madrid b/c he can't continue to expense his condo.

We both agree that the US is not a place where we would want to raise kids. We both don't like the suburbian lifestyle of how kids hang out at the mall and watch tv/internet all the time.

We both perfer the nice stroll in the afternoons to go to the market and get fresh groceries. We like how the families are close in Spain.

Perhaps there is a nice community in the US similar to Spain, but I haven't found it yet (I grew up on an island, perhaps that's pretty close in feeling).

Like most things in life, there are pluses and minuses to any situation.

We found these things a definite plus regarding Spain and our child and the programs my wife put him in during her various forays to Spain.

Subsidized childcare, lunches and social services. For better or worse, the state has a real commitment to children.

Downsides.

Socialistic bureaucrat nanny state mentality-

My wife, who has a U.S. teaching certificate, was not allowed to volunteer in any of the educational programs my son was involved in. No one was. Only Spanish certified professionals were allowed in the classroom. Everyone else is considered too stupid to contribute.

Different Sensibilities-

Teachers completely indifferent to the fact fourteen year olds were smoking during recess.

Inappropriate language by children completely overlooked.

Educationally behind the curve-

No clue as to what ADHD is and any other current topic about childhood disabilities.

No special education, special needs, additional services available except in very extreme cases. The prevailing attitude for education is that one size fits all.

Perhaps different individuals have had different experiences, but these have been ours.

Old Gringo is right on many points! (I've also taught in Spain.) The decision of where to raise your children (Spain or the U.S.) is very complicated. I agree that Spain is a wonderful place to have kids. I recommend being there for pregnancies, babies, and young children, IF you can afford a private school once school age begins, or your children are very bright, kind-hearted, and good at memorization. (If you can figure out how to guarantee that, let me know!) Living there and going to school is NOT the same as spending your holidays there with your kids. Education in the US, for all its problems, is more humane.

Once adolescence strikes the decision becomes very murky. You will no longer be pushing a stroller through a lovely park, meeting friends for a coffee while the kids play in the playground at the end of the street. I've had a number of passionate discussions with other dual-nationality parents on this one. The three big worries for parents of teens are drinking, drugs, and premarital sex. These are problems that exist equally in the U.S. and Spain. I know parents in Spain who want to return to the U.S. before the kids are teens. In some ways the peer pressure on
Spanish kids is even greater than in the U.S. Spanish kids also hang out in groups, in malls even, and watch loads of tv. My own kids watch way more tv when they're in Spain than when they're in the U.S. And I wouldn't say Spanish tv was any better than American tv. (Although I do enjoy Spanish commercials )

There is no right answer here. Raising children is harder than anything else you'll do. Where you do it will be a gamble. How you and your children will interact with the society around you is impossible to predict.

I agree with you mariposita. Though it has been almost two years since I got back from spain I am struggling between the us and Spain. I realize how much we as americans waste. You really don't need too much to live on. We are so consumed with what we can buy to impress our neighbors. No one really cares. Everyone is so caught up in their own lives anyway. I love the US and it has provided great opportunities.It is a "can do nation", But as I get older I am thinking more and more about spain.Spain has its problems with xenophobia, but on the whole spaniards enjoy life.Lets face westerners who move there aren't looking to become rich(though it would help)but are going for the lifestyle.To me the suburbs in the US are overrated(beautiful houses, but no life). You only get one life so you might as well do what makes you happy.

Old Gringo is right where there is probably no such thing as "special education" for kids and that the schooling has a lot of memorization.

But who says that technique is bad for the child?

I hope that I have a close enough relationship with my kid(s) where they would understand the consequences of prematial sex and drugs. This is universal.

What I worry about raising children is that they might be closed minded, cruel, angry, etc...True, teenagers all rebel against their parents in many ways and you could raise good kids here in the US as well as in Spain, but I think in Spain, you constantly have to be aware of the other nations around you.

Although I am proud to be an American, there are times when I am very embarassed that this culture instills and almost celebrates ignorance.

Yes, I've meet very ignorant people in Spain as much as I have in the US, but the Spaniards are aware that there is another world out there and are very proud of their roots of discovery and exploration.

Every kid I've spoken to, whether it's in the sticks of Spain to the big city kids, they have knowledge at least of their hometown, if not about their country.

I talk to kids here in the US and they don't even know where their capital is!

Today's US teenagers in math and science are behind the rest of the developed countries. Why is that?

True, there are more opportunities for a kid to be anything he wants to be when he grows up in the US, but according to the latest US Census (these are estimates from my memory), only 3% own 90% of the wealth and one has less than 7% chance to move from one economic status to another. True, our unemployment rate is lower than Spain, but those of us who are employed can't even afford health care.

This is the biggest issue for me. We are at the mercy of the coporations.

If I'm gonna be poor, I might as well be happy and healthy.

18th century teaching techniques are great if you’re going to live in the 18th century. I would think that most parents would want their children to have exposure to computers, multi-media centers, advanced teaching techniques, well stocked libraries, etc., but maybe I’m just weird.

I don’t know where you got your statistics but they are wrong, and furthermore wealth concentration doesn’t measure quality of life on any social or economic scale. The consensus measure is the percentage of middle class your society supports. The U.S. has one of the highest percentages of middle class in the Western hemisphere. That said, it is diminishing somewhat, primarily due to the influx of marginally skilled, semi-literate immigrants from the third world. A phenomena Spain is just getting a taste of.

By the way, life expectancy in the U.S. is 10 – 15% higher than Spain. All those kids you see smoking on the streets kind of cuts into their adult life expectancy average. Hey but at least they know about the world around them!

U.S. children do lag in math and science scores. However, we have a higher percentage of college graduates and Nobel Prize winners than other western countries. Strange isn’t it? Maybe it’s an illusion created by those corporate bogymen you’re so petrified of?

I might be wrong but what I see here in the U.S., is a credit system that allows for a lifestyle that in other countries only the wealthy can have. But the price of living under this system is that if you ever want to leave the U.S., you can’t because you aren’t exactly a wealthy person, you just live like and look like one. So most Americans have to live in the U.S. to pay their loans and have what ever they want on credit and pay later. For example, here you find banks offering teenage students credit cards with a $10,000 USD line of credit, which is unheard of in most countries. So if you grow up here, you realize that you can have what ever you want as long as you can work for it and make a monthly payment. That’s why for most Americans, (in addition to other benefits) the U.S., is so great and there’s no place like it. This system gives you immediate good living standards, but makes it really hard for someone to get out of this system and the middle class. This is because you spend most of your life in debt. Actually, many countries in a smaller scale (including Spain) are imitating this system to bring their people to better living standards. Companies get really wealthy, but your average American will have to stay in this system as long as he/she wants to drive a nice car and live in a nice house.

Hey Old Gringo -- you've gone from a little cynical to downright defensive. So you had a bad experience with Spain. So your child has special needs that weren't met. So you have to stay here for now. OKAY. I'm sorry. But, I think the point people are trying to make is that you can spin it from all sides. Raising kids is difficult anywhere. Drugs, sex, drinking -- those, as people here have already said, are problems everywhere. It was a problem when I was in school at 12 years of age. Failing school systems? Well I can't speak for Spain (and I am sure you can and will), but the U.S. has some pretty severe problems. I taught high school seniors at a school in Oakland, CA, a place (Northern California) that has plenty of money floating around, and there were NO computers, children couldn't do homework b/c they weren't allowed to take their books home, and their school was made up of trailers. Not to mention that one child who was an active member of a gang threatened me on a daily basis. As for meeting special education needs, my mother makes her living off of suing school districts that don't meet their obligations under the ADA (Americans w/ Disabilities Act) and IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act). So I can tell you, we've got problems here as well. And I am SURE that Spain has its problems; I will note, however, that higher education is free there. But I think the point of this board is for everyone to be able to share their experiences and their opinions without getting shut down. Your experience is that Spain has an 18th century school system that promotes smoking, sex and memorization (what a combo). From what I've read the fact that you ended up staying in the states was most likely the best thing that could have happened in your situation. But don't start waving the American flag and shooting out rhetorical questions because someone feels differently than you do. America is run by corporations; money IS important to this country; and maybe...just maybe....the reason we have more "Nobel Peace Prize" Winners (which I'm not sure that's even true and if it is am not sure why that is the benchmark of success) is a) because there is more money in this country to FUND the studies and work behind the awards and b) because qualified people from other countries come to the U.S. to do their studies and work because they know there is more money to fund the studies and work. So in reality, your point is not far off from lngarrison's point. My final message...please take part in the discussion but don't get your feathers in such a ruffle. Alright, I'm done.

You're right, jbach, and it's a serious problem. Spaniards with good jobs in the past faced 22% apr on credit cards opposed to our 0% (hopefully it's not as high still). In the US you've gotta spend (it's the way it's set up)!
I read an article on recently that talked about the new wealth in Spain thanks to the real estate boom. Spaniards are spending a lot more than they used to- but, if they have the cash, it's like before, one tends to save first and spend later (something almost unheard of in the US). It's scary, most 25-40-year old US citizens have less than $2,000 savings. That is really amazing if you ask me.
I've also taught in schools in Spain, both public and private, and I agree with everyone...it's a hard call. If your child is an aural learner, they are set. If not, better hope they are smart and can study well. I think it also depends on in which country the child wants to end up (and of course, there's no way of knowing ahead of time). All I know is if you are looking for PTA, beautiful, interactive classrooms, teaching methods to accommodate a variety of learning styles, and sports leagues, you'd be better off living in the US (unless the school in your area is despicable).
Also, about children not knowing about the world around them, can't parents take care of that by exposing their child to other cultures, traveling, reading about far away lands and turning off Fox news? There is so much learned outside of school. Heck, look at all of us- we're not like that (closed-minded, unaware, ignorant), right?

llewilli, you go girl (no offense, old gringo, it was just so nicely put). We must have posted around the same time and so I missed you first time around (and was thinking, I painted too rosy of a picture of the US). Because I am so happy in my job, I tend to forget how horrible the schools can be in the states. I was going to mention the violence- and I'm not just referring to huge shooting sprees, I'm talking about the things that go on in a school on a daily basis. You don't tend to see things like that in an average Spanish school (can't speak for marginal areas).
It's a crap shoot- in the US it's usually the more money you have, the better school district (unfortunately).

What school were you going to place your kid in? A monastery?

All of my boyfriend's nephews and nieces schools are very modern, very much like in the US. Their education is free, they have well stocked libraries, etc...

I told you my statistics are from the US Census. Can you really argue with that?

I'm not worried about my kid smoking. Rather have him smoke than in jail for murder. The US has a huge population in jail. Why?

Gee whiz, I think Spain has a lot of really smart people to. There are other prizes out there besides the Nobel and I will have to disagree w/ your statistic on college graduates. Spain has a high percentage of college grads.

I am glad that you are proud of your choice to stay in the US.

I started this forum as an open discussion on why or why we wouldn't move to Spain with our SO.

This forum is meant to be a discussion of pros and cons, not a reflection on our patriotism.

If I wanted that, I wouldn't even bother looking on this site.

We're not dissing your choice to stay in the US and raise your son. We just wanted to know why you made that choice.

Viva Espana.

That last message was to Old Gringo.