Work in Spain? Show me the money!

I have lived between the UK and Spain on and off for the last few years and it comes down to a question of economics.
Jobs are easy to come by in Britain and the pay is a lot lot higher.
You spend a lot of time and energy looking for work in Spain, you lower your standards all the time and finally if you do find work then it will be poor pay and long hours and twice as hard as back home.
So I came back to the UK got a job on 3 times the salary I was on in Madrid for half the hassle and soon I had a pot of money saved, meaning I could go back and live there for say 6 months at a time with no pressure and no need to work. Then hey presto, a job falls in your lap. Right place, right time etc. So thats one way of getting the Spanish experience.

It's the same with working in the USA versus Spain for sure. Salaries in Spain are about half to one-third of that in the USA. Really odd since the housing market in Spain is through the roof, practically unattainable, and people earning those low salaries can't even HOPE to buy a home at this time.

What job fell in your lap in Spain? Maybe we could interview there too!

Saludos, MadridMan

Hi,
this is my 1st post in this forum.. and i should say i got a bit worried.. it seems that the company that i m working for wants to relocate me in madrid starting march 2005, I haven t received the offer yet but i would like to ask you guys what would be a decent salary in Madrid for a position equivalent to an assistant marketing manager ? i just want to have you guys opinions even if they are not precise & accurate , but at least that would give me an idea about the salary they re going to offer me. thanks a lot..

Hi Simo.
If you are to be paid the local market rate the news might not be so good.There are scores of Spanish marketing graduates available and looking for work as marketing is a popular career choice.Other career choices such as my own, construction, are not so popular and a bit higher paid I think. Therefore with the law of supply and demand the going rate might be as low as 2M pesetas (about £10.000 per annum - dollars not sure of the conversion), maybe 3M.If however your employer is US based you may have a better negotiation chance.
Good luck, let us know how you fare.

Housing prices for buying a place in Madrid are through the roof, but renting is quite affordable. At least half what it would be in a big American city...

WHAT! Maybe affordable for americans, but not for spaniards.

An average "apartamento", this means 1 sleeping room plus living-room, uses to cost around 500 + euros a month.

An average "piso" or apartment, of three rooms plus living room costs 650 (very few)to 900+. But there are many above.

If you realize that some salaries are about 600 euros after taxes, and maybe most under 1.200, I wouldn't say they are cheap ... if you work here and get a spanish salary.

In fact, it's about 100 euros a month more, many times, to BUY the flat on a 30 years mortgage.

Renting prices are comparatively much more expensive than buying ones. That's also one of the reasons why people tries to buy, causinggo up even more. A vicious circle.

Yeah, I agree housing here is atrocious, especially near the big cities. Not only that but the new apartment buildings they make now are crap. The attitude seems to be: "Let's fit as many people in one building as we can, build it super fast, give them all 80m2 (with about 63m2 of actual living space), with super thin walls (so you can hear all your neighbors nice and clear), and then sell it for a crazily stupid price!" I wouldn't buy a new apartment here now, the buildings they built 20 years ago seem to be much better built but the good ones are so out of reach financially.

For example, my wife and I saw a very nice apartment last weekend (in Albacete): nice, spacious, room to breathe, good solid construction and cost about 300,000 Euros. Big money is hard to come by here, so who can afford these crazy prices?

Spanadian.

Thanks Steven for your info.
Jsu want a small clarification : between 10000 to 15000 GBP is what a fresh graduate can make per annum for his 1st job.. i have been working for my company for more than 4 and 1/2 years , it s a very strong multinational company , i was hired first in Morocco ( i m from morocco ) and then i was expatriated to indonesia where i m still working now , now they want to relocate me to spain but under a local contract , not an expat contract like the one i have now, so neither accomodation nor transportaion allocations , if you tell me i m gonna make 15.000 GBP per year and have to pay 600 to 800 eur per month for the rent, than indeed it is not good news at all. . Anyway, I ll let you know how is it going.. thanks ..

Well, it depends on what the "assistant marketing manager" stands for. if you are speaking of an executive position, then it's absolutely different.

It depends on wether they valorate your experience and skill. There are other marketing positions apart from the majoritary "misery salaries" ones, where you can get more decent salaries, and, above all, juicy commisions.

It depends totally on your salary wether it's worth to come or not. Yo have to compare with your previous situation. Expect national products prices to be 2 to 3 times cheaper than in England, international products like cars to be about the same, and property almost the same.

If you balance the weight all of these have on your monthly budget, you could accept a salary that is about 65 or 70% the one you'd have in England and lead a similar standard of life.

If you can make 15000 GBP (22000 Euros a year, say 1500 Euros take home a month) and pay just 600 Euros rent, then I happen to think you'll be very well off. Most people both in Spain and the UK pay a far larger proportion of their income on rent or mortgage payments. Plus, if you're prepared to share an apartment you should be able to find somewhere for 300 Euros.

Well, If you earn 22000, you don't get 1500 euros a month.

You'd get this if you didn't have any discount. I have about one third of my salary off with taxes, social security monthly rates (it's another tax, after all), and private pension.

If you got the same you'd get 1000 euros. Not so nice, hah?

And it depends where you owrk, for in Madrid, with 1000 euros a month you can live but you'd have to economize a lot. Just transport and housing would take most of that money, esating at home and going out few would be necessary. Saving would be almost impossible, you'd have the two extra pays of 1500 (1000) euros in summer and Christmas, that you would use for holidays and car insurance or other anual expenses.

Of course you can live sharing for 300 €. That's a reasonable price for MAdrid, and even for a little less if you look hard an lose some comfort, but you decrease your quality of life same as coming in public transport can make you spend 1.30 hours instead of 30 minutes sometimes each way to work, and this is VERY important, as much as living in a 5th floor without lift or using electric (a pure sh*t) heating, or...

South American inmigrants live sometimes 10 or 15 in a 3 rooms home, but I guess Simo would prefer not do so.

About renting apartments--
Yes, that's what I meant--by American standards renting an apartment in Madrid is really not that bad here. A lot of Americans say that rent is expensive in Madrid, but they usually aren't comparing to a comparable big city in the US.

Where I lived in the US--twelve years in Washington, DC--living in the central part of the city is only for the very well off or people who can pay a very, very high percentage of their income on rent. A two bedroom apartment in a central location could never be found for under $2000 a month (unless you had a rent controlled place for a long time). Four bedroom places rent out for $3000+! People spend $700 to rent one room in a group house. Granted, people in DC tend to make a lot more money than they do in other parts of the US.

That's why most big American cities have a huge sprawl of cheaper housing in the ex-urbs (the part that is even further than the suburbs).

We couldn't afford to rent in DC anymore, so we bought a house five years ago in a really undesirable neighborhood.

Within a year or two, the rents started skyrocketing there, too. People were soon spending more on a studio apartment than we spent on our whole mortgage. Even with the horrendous exchange rate, I'm now able to rent my place out in DC, pay my mortgage there, and pay my rent here in a much better and more central area--pretty crazy (and lucky for me)!

Yes, that's what I meant. That's the exchange rate game.

It depends what Simos standard of living is at the moment.In Madrid he will either have to share a place or live in a one room studio or he will have to commute from outside the city which will make his long working day even longer still. Factor this into your calculations,Simo.
Another thing, which I dont like to mention but the fact you are Moroccan. Some madrilenos have a pretty rascist attitude to their North African neighbours, so dont always expect a welcoming landlord.

But the exchange rate is working against me, not for me. Still it is much more affordable for me to live here (the equivalent of $1200 in rent vs. the $2000+++ that it would cost in the US).

Steven and Simo:

That's true. I have latino friends who have had problems hiring flats because of their origin, but that's due to the popular belief that they don't pay the rent many times and give many problems.

But this is not a racist attitude most times, it's based on own or known experience.

If you have a good appeareance and look well, you'll have much less problems, and as soon as you pay your first rents in time, any doubt will dissapear and you'll be fine.

Of course, sharing a flat would be less problematic for this.

Another matter is that, after 11-M some people distrust morocchians more. Most 11-M bombers were morocchians and the ones who have recenty been investigated because they supposedly were going to bomb other places are too. That's another difficulty, for nobody wants to host a future terrorist. Unfair for the rest, I know.

Mariposita:

Yes. I meant the effect that makes that (because of the prices you mention in the USA) you find our housing cheap whereas for us is extremely high.

COnsidering that most USA prices are 2 or 3 times the spanish ones, the dollar should be 1/2 or 1/3 of an euro for the reasonable comparison could be done. Of course, I hope this won't ever happen, or we would go to the ruin directly through exchange balance deficit, and loss of competivity.

Well , this conversation starts being very interesting and very informative to me.. thanks Guys for all your posts..
The option that looks the most appropriate to me is to live in the suburbs. Since I m bringing my wife with me , we can t share an appartment and we would need something more spacy than a studio..
Ignacio , steven, you re absolutely right to bring up this problem related to my origin, and i m concious that i will have to bear this problem if i would have to live there. I fully understand the feeling that madrilenos can have towards morrocans/ north africans after the events.. unfortunately , a bunch of Lousy people who happen to be from my country have done this crappy things and our reputation went bad.. but i want to ask you guys : (i don t know if we can discuss about it here or shall we create a new topic for this) , to what extend my status can jeopardize my life in madrid ?, I mean my wife and I are very open-minded people who like to have many friends, go partying.. Can we ,for example, be stopped at a Dicotheque door ? or be rejected in a retaurant ? would that be so diffucult for us to make friends ? In summary , will we have a chance to have a decent social life , and would people give us a chance to know more about us ?

About suburbs, there are cheaper suburbs (souther zone), suburbs that are about the same price (northern zone), and very expensive/expensive suburbs like La Moraleja, Pozuelo, ...

Living out of Madrid and working in Madrid will have an effect in your quality of life. SOme of these places are well communicated, but some are not. Using your own car can make your way home half an hour or one hour and a half depending on traffic, specially in the southern, cheaper areas.

You'd have to use public transport, and you could have a good link or a bad one. For example, maybe you'd have to use both Metrosur and then Metro or train and then Metro or Bus.

There is open minded and closed minded people, but even open minded are conservative regarding their flats, because, as a general rule, spaniards and the rest of UE europeans pay in time and pay always, whereas people from other origins sometimes give problems of not paying, or not paying in time, or even damaging the flat.

In cheap suburbs you'll find both kind of owners, people who is more accustomed to inmigrants and people who has had bad experienced and don't want to have anything to do with them.

I suppose you don't speak spanish, or at least not much. This way, it will be a great help for you that in southern Madrid dormitory towns (Leganés, Móstoles, Alcorcoón, Fuenlabrada, Getafe, ...) there will always be a small or abundant colony of morocchians.

About spaniards, you may be treated with prevention at first, however, being a cultivated and/or nice person, you'll soon be treated right by most. I believe we have prejudices as anybody else (prejudices have a function), but most of us are smart enough to use them only as a first approach and then we make our own opinion on the person.

For example, I have an Iranian friend, and he is absolutely integrated in his middle class community nowadays, although I don't know how it was when he came to Madrid.

You won't be rejected at restaurants, and it would be unprobable you'd be at discos. And still, even we spaniards are rejected sometimes if they don't like the way we look (excuses are : private party, only for club members, clothing not appropiate, ...).

If you are an immigrant, you will be accepted more in the capital city than in a small town. Thats true I think whether it be in Madrid, London, Paris etc.
Simo wont get turned away from bars and restaurants because he is a customer with money in his pocket.
As for racism/prejudice/bigotry/nationalism however you define it. Spanish people wont hold back in their opinion and will tell you to your face.And the people of Madrid can be harder than most. They consider themselves superior to everyone, not just negros, sudacos, moros, guiris - they have names for us all and are not afraid or ashamed to use them!
See the latest football report on the England/Spain match - I appreciate this is probably a whole new subject!

Well, we ARE direct and frank, and do not avoid expressions like "black man" or "northern african", cause they are not insults but definitions, and we are free from d*mned PC. But that doesn't mean we're hostile.

In fact, I believe that we're much more warm towards foreigners than hipocritycal PC countries that call you MR Black Person or MR Brown Person and behind your back they call you rubbish.

I live in a Madrid Suburb(Majadahonda) and they are building Apartments(Pisos) and Chalets like CRAZY here. In the neighborhood that borders mine, I would venture a guess that over 1,500 units are in various phases of construction right now. I don't know what they are going for but I am happy with the rent I pay for my Chalet(Although, I get an allowance for housing from my work). I am a Southern Redneck Americano who few have to guess where I am from and I have met some of the most polite and friendly people here in Madrid. You will ALWAYS run across some ignorant clerk or shop owner who will discriminate(not wait on you or ignore you) against you because you are a foreigner but that happens anywhere you go in this world. I show the spaniards some good ole Southern hospitality(Holding doors for ladies, saying Gracias to clerks, and letting cars in front of me)and it always surprises me how friendly people can be.

For anyone who doesn't live in the USA. Let me enlighten you.The rent prices are going through the roof and we are suffering inflation,also what an average american makes after taxes is about $350-700 dollars, mind you that we have to split that up between rent,food,electric,phone,gas,water and so on!

You mean dayly?

I mean, the last time I was to tha USA, 700 bucks a week after taxes would have been considered average. 350 would have been called mysery.

It depends on what part of the US you are talking about. Here in the Southwest $350 per week is not great money but one could live on it. Not a lot of luxaries but live. The cost of housing is the clue as to what the general rate of pay will be. Here in the Phoenix, Arizona area where I live our house appraise last year for $255,000, the same house in Southern California would be about $650,000 in the San Francisco Bay area it would go for over a Million dollars. In El Paso, Texas it would be about $175,000. I agree with you Ignacio I could not live my standard of living on $350 per week. Since the war in Iraq has started everything has shot up in price. Wood boards that use to cost .97 cents each are now over $3.00 each and that has added to the cost of houseing. Gasoline when the war started was $1.35 per gallon is now over $2.00 per gallon. (gallon is approx. 4 liters)

quote:
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also what an average american makes after taxes is about $350-700 dollars
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You mean dayly?

I mean, the last time I was to tha USA, 700 bucks a week after taxes would have been considered average. 350 would have been called mysery............................................................................................You'r funny Ignacio, for example. I live in Boston and a typical house around here cost in the range of $400.000 and up. The reason mainly is because I live near everything (hospital, universities,shopping malls ect,but that's not the point I'm trying to make.What I'm trying to say is that $350-700 people make each weak or every two weaks has to be divided into many amenities and it's very difficult to rent an apartment nowadays much less buy a house without support.People in the U.S.A are not as wealthy as other countries might think.We are struggling here too especially with inflation and the war among other things.

Yes, but the point is... ¿are 350$ a week salaries frequent?

Or they are very low and exceptional outside the cheapest states?

The only way we can answer your question Ignacio, is to know what city you are asking about. The best thing you could do is to bring up a newspaper for the city you are interested in and look at the classified ads. That will tell you what the salaries are for that area. A job that pays $70,000 per year here in Phoenix, Arizona might only pay $45,000 per year in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. The same job might pay $125,000 in San Francisco, California. Some of the things that effect it might be the states tax base and labor unions. California has outragious taxes and the unions are very strong. Those are two reasons that business are leaving California in droves. It was announced Monday afternoon that an insurance company that has been based in California since 1868 is moving to Omaha, Nebraska which has a much more favorable business enviroment. That will be a loss of 1300 jobs for Orange County, California. Here in Phoenix, Arizona a person could live on the $350 per week, he would not live on "Easy Street" but he could live. Just up the road 285 miles(500KM) in Las Vegas, Nevada most of the hotel "Valets" are earning about $70,000 per year handling luggage for the hotel guests. There are to many variables that enter into it, to say what one job pays in all areas.

Maybe that's why. I have been to New York, Chicago and Miami, which are by no means the cheaper towns, although California seems to be worse.

But, considering the prices of things that do not depend (much) on the place you live in, like cars, or phone bills, it seemed difficult to live on with that amount.

Besides, in the places I was to, like in Chicago, an illegal worker made more money (at least, that's what a mexican guy told me there).

Just so you know what you're up against, there's an article in today's English version of El País (.pdf format) newspaper which states, in part:
So if you think it's difficult for THEM it's certainly MUCH more difficult for someone from abroad who 1) doesn't speak Spanish at all or very well, 2) MIGHT only get one of these temporary contract jobs which pay almost nothing, 3) has no familial support in Spain whatsoever.

So now, the title of this topic, "Work in Spain? Show me the money!", has to make me laugh a little. First, there's little (if any) meaningful work in Spain. And second, there's VERY little money to be made IF you get a job there.

The opposite, however, must be intriguing for a Spaniard. I can only imagine what it must be like for a fortunate Spaniard who "mad skillz" in someone technical, (s)he comes to the USA as invited by some big company, and suddenly he goes from living at home with his parents in Barcelona (for example) to making $60,000+/year in, say, Chicago! Wow. Must be incredible. But alas, it's more difficult than ever for foreigners to come to the USA to work (legally).

Saludos, MadridMan

Spanish salaries have always been been low, but with the arrival of the euro, they've become downright pathetic. Recent statistics situated the average salary at about 16,000 euros a year, nearly in the cellar compared to its European Union associates. It seemed that everyone had the right to round things up except for the guy making money. All of you who live in Spain can vouch for me when I refer not only to housing prices but also vegetable prices, bar prices and hotel prices. We who live here love going out and it's no longer what it used to be.

After years of teaching at a colegio concertado I still make half of what a starting salary is at most public schools back home in Connecticut. Then again, prices are ridiculous there too. Going to the supermarket in CT, for example, is a painful experience. The money just melts away. People I know from Ireland laugh at what we think something in Spain is pricey. They say, you don't know what expensive is. But it's still disproportionate. I think that most Spanish salaries need a 5,000 euro boost to level things off a little more.

Ironically, other products have gone down a lot. Computers and electronic equipment is a fraction of what it used to cost, mainly thanks to the stronger euro. And a recent study has shown that clothes have gone down, though they're still higher than American prices.

On the other hand, if I had come to Spain to make money, I never would have come in the first place. I came, among other reasons, to enjoy this great country's quality of life. Its wonderful attitude towards life. If I had wanted to make money, I would have stayed in the New York Metropolitan area and gotten up at the crack of dawn every day to head into the city the way my brother does. I would have done what a Spanish computer programmer did years ago. He went to California to develop a new program with videos. He worked his b**** off for three years until Microsoft bought him out for a nice price of 10,000,000,000 pesetas (de aquellas, ni más ni menos). The man said he had gone to The US because he never would have made a cent off of it. But I looked for something else.

If you're looking to strike it rich don't come to Spain. You may get lucky, but chances are you'll have to fight for every peseta (or euro). It does suck at times, I have to admit, and I really do believe workers are underpaid. But for the moment, es lo que hay, as the Spaniards say.

Hopefully things will get better, but you need to be patient and conscious of what life is like. Of course I say this as we head right into the Christmas season and pray to make it to the end of the month!

My wife and I are giving Spain a look for our retirement years. Something does not fit, I am reading about these low salaries and then read the real estate column and see what the going price is for houses(chalets) and condos (apartments). If the salaries are that low how are the Spanish people affording those places. Or am I being shown different prices than the price sheet that is being shown a Spaniard? I am reading on the web for real estate along the Med that it is apprieciating at the rate of 15 to 20% per year. Are these places being sold to Spanish or are the people from other countries being gouged? Something truly does not fit with this picture!!! When we were in Spain last year we did not see any indication that people were scratching to get by on 16,000 euros per year. It seemed to me that we were handed the same menu as eveyone else, unless the hotels had Spanish and non Spanish room rates. I know the gas pumps did not seem to differentiate. About the only answer is,there are two separate prices, one for Spaniard and one for the tourist.

Unfortunately we have to pay those prices too. People is increasing their debts. Now it takes 30 years to pay your house's credits instead of 20. That's the way for the people to pay their houses.

The problem is that the whole system will go into a big crash the day credits rise. People will have to sell their mid-payed houses and cancel their credits and the prices will go down quickly. That will make people's savings lower, which will probably drive the country into a crisis.

This may happen or not, but with the current financial policies of our government could happen in two years (according some experts).

Cross your fingers!

Fernando

The thirty year mortgage is a common method of home finance here in EEUU. We also are very accustomed to using credit. However for someone to have an average salary of 16,000 euro and the prices of housing that I have seen advertized in Madrid, and other cities, a person could not qualify for the mortgage. Here in EEUU most families only put down 5% of the purchase price and then some other fees that are required by the lender to make the home purchase that bring the initial out of pocket up to 10% of the purchase price. Then on the more expensive houses they may be required to put down as much as 20%, with additional closing fees. At the salaries you are talking about, and housing prices that I am seeing, I don't see how they would ever save enough to make the initial down payment. I will admitt, that in doing internet research of real estate, that I have seen some true bargains. That has always been on the high end houses and farms. In most cases they freely admitt that the property needs some work to bring it up to modern standards. Are the majority of Spanish people living in rented housing, as opposed to owner occupied housing?

In the UK the price of housing has shot up astronomically in the last few years, initiated by the crazy UK market. Here (unless you are luckily on a high salary) you have no chance of being able to afford a house, even in partnership with another person. For instance you may have a salary of 17000 pounds. A bank will lend you 4 times this for a mortgage - say 68,000. Then you can add 1.5 times your partner's salary - let's say another 25,000, making 95,000 pounds in all. However the starter house you're looking at will cost typically 180,000 pounds. So, no chance. Part of the reason for the increase is that the numbers of young people taking university degrees has gone up (I won't comment here on the debate over dumbing-down worthless degrees). This has increased the rental value that 'buy-to-rent' owners have been able to get from their house, as 4 students in 1 house pay more than a couple renting it out.
One result of the increase in UK house prices is that those who bought more than 8 years ago have the benefit of (unearned) massive increases in the capital value of their property. Many have used this to either sell their property (or take out a second mortgage) and then buy up properties in southern Europe. This has resulted in fuelling the property market in places like southern France, Spain etc....
I understand also that in Spain the property market is distorted by council policy. There is plenty of cheap land that developers could build land on (for example Castilla-La Mancha!) However the councils will only give permission for the services to be connected on more expensive land in the big cities. Perhaps a Spanish contributor could confirm/correct this?

True. Councils use the selling of high value lands in order to finance and pay their investments.

In Spain a high majority of the people live in owned houses. Renting is not common because people think that at least a mortgage (hey, a word I learnt thank to this thread!) allows you to own your house at the end.

Fernando

I am assuming that when you are talking about the services you are talking about electric, phone, gas,and water. These are by private corporation here in the EEUU. They are more than happy to connect you wherever you might be, for a price. Water in the rural areas, is often done by drilling your own well. By council are you speaking of a governmental agnecy? When the governemment enters into it here is to issue the building permit and assure the structure meets building safty standards for the water, electrical, gas, and is not going to fall down on someone. Some areas do not do inspections. I am in the process of building a new house in northern Arizona and the permit is $95 and no inspections by the govenment. My friend is putting an additional room on his house and the permit was$3000, with inspections on every facet of the construction. The difference is my house is about 15 miles from town (25Km) his is in town. Mine is over a 1Km to my nearest neighbor, his is 10 meters. The time it takes to get a permit approved is another variable. Mine took about five minutes. A friend who lives in San Francisco says it takes about three months to get the plans approved and for 250square meter house it would cost about $35,000 for the permit. My plans I drew myself and presented them. His had to have an engineer's approval before the permit approval people would look at them. The reason for the heavy scrutney is population density. My point is, how close do the govenrmental agnecies watch the consruction of housing and other sturctures? Are the utilities provide by private companies or by state owned providers?

All of my Utilities are thru Private Companies, and they are not cheap. I was surprised by a 300 Euro Water bill during the summer(I was watering the grass twice a day). But my utilities even for a fairly large Chalet have been comprable to what I paid in the states for the same utilities. I am sure they have Building Code enforcement people here(Don't know for a fact)but the Pisos and Chalets going up look solidly built. Like I said in a earlier string, they are building like crazy here in Madrid. Traffic is bad enough now but when the 5-10 thousand housing units being built here in Majadahonda are occupied, it is going to be impossible to drive. I am enjoying this weekend(Long holiday weekend here) becasue a LOT of Madridians took a short vacation.

You must take into account that our cities are not like yours in the way people live or the buildings are built.

Even in our smaller cities it is usual for people to live in blocks of buildings (blocks are either residential or for offices, these two types are very very different). In Madrid there are blocks of buildings extremely expensive, and even the cheapest one is usually a good place to live.

Wood houses are unknown. Every building here is built with concrete.

Outside cities there are usually estates with (usually) expensive and exclusive houses which are similar to your house+yard (but build with concrete and bricks).

The land is usually owned by the councils, which is the governatory institution that rules a village/town/city. The councils sell this land to built blocks/houses for a high price (they usually sell only the most expensive of their properties).

Now you have the land, and private corporations build residential (or other types) of blocks (which can be from three stores to twenty usually, depending on how large the town is).

As people don't spread out over a large area of land (population density is much higher in Europe, and Spain people tend to concentrate in urban areas, no matter how large the village/town/city is), utilities are not usually a problem. The time you need it, you have a phone line, water and a power line.

The big problem is that usually the land is very expensive because councils (as I have said), sell it at high prices as a way to finance their investments (in infrastructures like roads, subways, urban constructions,...).

Fernando

When the govt. owned land is sold for development the money that is brought in from the sale goes to one of the State of Arizona's four universities. This is mandated by the state constitution. If the land is owned by a private party it must be developed as to the zoning laws of the area. Many times one can apply to the Planning and Zoning Department for a "Variance" that is the zoning is outdated and needs to be changed. Then they can build something else on their property. When the developer puts in a new "Subdivision" it is his responsiblity to put in all the infrastructure. That is the electric, water, sewers, phone, streets, street lights etc. Then the cost of that is included into the cost of each new house or whatever else he is building. We do a lot of wood construction of houses here and most of them are not built all that well. Your concrete houses and stone will last longer than anything that is built here. Stone is the oldest building material known to man. The second oldest is a material known as "Adobe." That is a mixture of clay and sand. There are adobe houses here in the southwest that are known to be over 500 years old. Those stone house in Europe and the Middle East some of them are older than that. The nice thing about stone and adobe is how well insulated it is. Some of these wooden house when they start to get old they are real cold or hot and down right drafty. Adobe houses are also very expensive. My house is wood frame stucco, and was appriased for $255,000 last year, the same house made of adobe would appraise for approx $550,000.

I don't know what is right or who has the best plans for building housing. All I know is what we have and what I have to live with. I am going to be building my new house in Northen Arizona out of stone, if you are interested Fernando I will send via E mail photos as the house while in progress. The size of the lot is approx. 2 hectars the house will be about 135 square meters. I will be starting in the middle of January.

THAT is an appreciation

Of course I'm interested! I only know a part of the USA and I would be very glad to know from other parts

Oh, guess which language the word adobe come from? Spanish! It is an arabism that was adopted into spanish from Al-Andalus times (700 AC to 1500 AC).

Fernando

What I mean by that is, if my house had been constructed of adobe originally it would be be worth $550,000. I knew that adobe was arab in origin, which makes me wonder how it got to this side of the Atlantic in view of the fact the indians were using it before Columbus arrived.

Salaries have not changed much with euro in Spain and within the EU. In fact, they have recently risen a lot compared with non-EU countries due to the appreciation of the currency. Now my salary might be interesting for a USA economist, whereas 3 years ago it would have been the equivalent of a junior one in the USA.

BUT what has realy happened is a huge rise in inflation, partially (its minor part) included in official statistics, like in food, transport, taxes, etc..., and a rise NOT included in official statistics, like housing, wich almost doubled housing prices in three or four years.

These crazy prices are the result of:

-The Town Councils' way to finance their uncontrolled expense: best salaries in the Public sector, and continuous renovations of streets, roads and squares, usually to become worse (they spend our money this way because the majors/parties of the majors get an illegal percentage).

- The speculation Town Councils make of the part of the floor they receive for parks, etc., in the new urbanizations, that they sell to finance themselves, and they are interested in selling it expensive, so they manage soil prices go up. This also fincances parties and/or majors.

- The former government corrupted movements to enrich it's friends and themselves, like the high speed train Madrid-Barcelona stop in the middle of nowhere... Well, no, in the middle of nowhere BUT FOR Esperanza Aguirre's (elected Comunidad de MAdrid presindent - PP)family's huge property, with projected urbanization, and so many other cases. In Spain the big bucks are in STate, and politicians are vinculated, all parties, but some are more corrupt than others.

- The massive inmigration makes a big demand.

- As a result of all this, people has joined a kind of popular capitalism when you earn easy money by buying cheap and speculating with it, renting in the meantime, which would be fair with any good that's not for supervivence like housing or food. It's became like the Stock Exchange, and it's cycles have also became similar, now the Bear begins. This is additional demand, besides, as people is speculating, they don't care paying 300.000 euros for a flat that's worth 150.000, because they are sure they'll get 350.000, so the price skyrockets because of speculation.

- The former government also diminished the number of cheap houses that the State patronized, to a minimum, making people have to buy in the "free" market, and sending aditional demand to this one.

In truth, had I been member of the Government, and had I wanted to f*ck the citizens while I get rich along with my friends and finance my party, I hardly could have created a better plan. It's a masterpiece of econometrics to obtain the details requested: people poorer and yours richer.

No, except for some taxi drivers and maybe in some hotels ("Hostales", where you may bargain if you are a frequent visitor- I did it in Madrid, americans don't), and very few other places, you get exactly the same prices. Besides, prices are advertised in most places, and we don't get discounts for being spanish. What we do is find the better offer all the time, plus we are not so consume-oriented as you are, in some goods.

That's great! In som ecountries we have a bubble, caused by speculation, like UK and us, this has happened previously in Japan and Australis recently. But ours is even huger because of PP actuations, and now the obvious puncturee that will come when interest rates (part of the economic cycle) go up, that will probably happen under PSOE i sto blame of it's returning to old prices, making the people who got rich speculating to be as rich as they were before, in fact that's fair, if they like to play they have to take bulls and bears. Or people have to live under a bridge for them to have three or six empty flats to speculate? They can do it harmlessly with gold.

And this has nothing to do with the financial policies of this government that are being extremely better than the previous one, for PP has made not only the bubble but also raised taxes, lowered public investment in welfare and increased (hidden) deficit, which is a real record for a Conservative party, usually careful with monetary policy.

Besides, the interst rate, every average knowlegeable person in Spain knows, does no longer depends on the national politics but in the EU situation, for the interest rate used in mortgages is EURIBOR and depends of the EU Bank.

If I were generous, I would think it was lack of information on your side, but I know you, and guess it's PSOE bashing on your side, as usual, Fernando.

DD: People under 16.000 euros simply CNA't have a home, that's why they stay with their parents or share a flat, because, sadly, they can not afford 11.000 euros a year (cheapest one-room apartment monthly payment) to 25.000, or 6.000 to 12.000 rents.

Some of these, when they have the luck that they both work (long hours, underpaid, losing hours to get to work, no family life, ...), one of the salaries or more goes to pay for the monthly payments, while they live on the rest of the two salaries, a struggle. Many times they do this while staying at their parents because they can't do it any other way. For some people it's simply impossible because banks won't give them credit nor they would be able to cope with the payments if given. Those have to pay rents for all their life, and to afford them they have to live far, and "enjoy" long hours of traffic jams or inefficeint public transport with many line changes to get to work and back.

Since banks want to "sell" credits, and most people would not qualify, in here, they have been admitting almost anybody who have a payroll and even with a temporary job, and they make very generous estimations on the saving capacity of these low salaries. One more thing that will enworsen the bubble burst.

Well, what Filbert means is that there can be no construction in areas where the local and "comunidad" (like state s in USA) do not authorize, making it "urban" from "rural". This is followed by permission and/or contracts with the private companies to give services like gas, electricity. These are given by big companies, being only the water one semi-public.

That's the best instrument used for soil speculation that has made rich many majors. Before PP you could construct anywere not reserved for natural parks, ..., now, you can only build (except for farms and the like) where the Town COuncil allows you, and they'll get their share.

Yes, but most people doesn't want to live there, because of what MedicalMan said, it's a hell to come to town and back, and it can be pretty expensive too, if you have to use one of those (empty) PP alternatives to free roads that they want us to use and pay about 1 euro each way each day. Logically, they are almost desert and people keeps on jamming in the others, enjoying 1.30 hours to reach the town.