Probability of getting work visas

After reading a few other threads, the question (more of a concern) came to me about how difficult it really is to get a work visa to work in Spain as a US citizen. I have been strongly considering moving there next year (springtime) but by what I've been reading I guess it could be longer. I saw in one thread that MadridMan has been working on this for nearly 7 years if I'm not mistaken.

What is the most difficult part about getting the visa? Once you land a job in Spain, isn't that enough? Or is landing the job the most difficult part? If so, I'm sure the field of work you choose and the demand for people to fill those positions would be a factor. Any ideas on what the demand is for IT professionals? That is my field here in the US, but I am concerned with my ability to perform it there based upon my current fluency in Spanish. I have been studying for a while and have learned a lot, but I do not consider myself fluent yet.

I was doing some research on visas and I noticed that there is a "self-employed" type visa. How hard are those to obtain? I am wondering if obtaining one of those would be enough to start living there while remotely working for a US company (working remotely is an option in the IT field obviously). Once there and working, it would only be a matter of time before you could find and transition to a local company I would imagine.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!

-Loc

Hi there,
I wish you luck with your venture. I think there is always a chance for self-employed entrepreneurs to be successful if they have the right idea and enthusiasm. I don't know the legal barriers in your case, but maybe Martin de Madrid (or others resident in Spain) could help you out on this side.
Here are a couple of ideas that may be worth looking into (I accept they may not be particularly good ideas; let's hope others can put their thinking caps on)
a) the cost of studying languages/computer courses etc. is a lot cheaper than the UK. Perhaps you could tie up with an existing school and try to market it to the Brits (a lot of language hurdles to be overcome here)
b) Set up an accommodation finding agency for those spending some time in Madrid. Hostals/hotels are great for a few days, but I think there's a need for people who are staying some time in Madrid who would welcome the chance to share an apartment (and bills)

Again, good luck in your quest!

You ask how difficult it is for a U.S. citizen to get a work permit for Spain. To put it simply--next to impossible unless you're married to someone from the European Union or an American company transfers you to Spain.

The reason it's so difficult is that to apply for the visa you need to have a valid contract from a company in Spain, but in order for a company to offer you a contract you need to have your work permit. So it's a real catch-22.

You could get lucky and find a company that wants to help you with the visa, but the problem is this is a very long process and could take 6 months or more. So, of course most companies aren't going to want to wait that long for you. Even if they do decide to wait it out the problem is that you can always be denied the work permit. Theoretically a company can only hire a U.S. citizen if there is no one available (Spanish or other European Union members) to do that particular job. Proving this is really tough which is why they can deny you a work permit, especially when you consider that Spain has a relatively high unemployment rate and there are more than enough locals for the available jobs, unless you're looking for something really specialized.

I don't know much about the self employment visa. It may be easier to get than the visa for working for another company, but it will definitely be costly to set up a business.

Good luck!

Maybe you could approach this from another angle. I know there's always quite a lot of Unix admin jobs available in the UK. I'm not sure, but it may be easier to get a working visa there. Then (assuming you keep up the Spanish lessons) you may be able to get a role working in Spain (I've seen quite a few jobs advertised on www.jobserve.co.uk for people with Unix skills to work in Spain. I've been frustrated as I don't have the relevant Unix skills - I can use VI editor and move files around, but that's about it).
Since I'm normally resident in the UK, contact me if you need any help

Hi Loc! Welcome to our little message board.

You wrote: Mine is a not-so-special case, I'm afraid. I imagine others would have a (SOMEWHAT!) easier journey than me because I have no specialized training, nor certification, nor anything that would help me get a job in Spain. (unless you consider a Bachelor's degree in Geology from OSU useful - but I haven't used it for work-related purposes since 1993)

I'd say that's it. JUST LANDING A JOB is THE MOST difficult part. You'll find, here in this forum, LOTS of stories from people who were promised a visa, given the old "Yes! We'll give you a visa but let's see how it goes first." So essentially, lots of employers invite you to work illegally, WITHOUT PAPERS and without contract and without insurance and without security. Then after doing a good job for a month or two you'll ask them, "So... what about that work visa?" and they'll say something like "We're working on that" or "let's give it a little while longer." Then, after 6-months or MORE, when you've overstayed your visitors visa and official an illegal alien living in Spain, they either drop your wages or fire you as "cutback measures". You see, by asking you to work illegally they really "have you by the .... jewels" and can manipulate you in so many nasty ways. This is the way it often works and makes for a kind of employment mill where people are coming and going all the time, many working illegally, and the employer never has to pay into your social security or other benefits so THEY save money and they get a few months of HARD work out of you too because you're trying to win your work visa.

You wrote: You'll want to check out the recent thread entitled " Madrid : Higher or lower unemployment? " where Dommo was asking essentially the same question but more specifically about the demand for qualified IT persons.

It's a TOUGH road. We have/had a few IT professionals who were working in Spain under these conditions and now... I don't know what happened to some of them AFTER they lost their jobs. It's definitely NOT a secure job market unless you're offered a work visa upfront or if you have highly specialized and marketable skills.

If it was so easy to claim "self-employment" in order to get a visa EVERYONE would do it. You can be sure I would have (and definitely COULD have) done that YEARS ago.

The government has to first be shown that you'll not be a leach on the economy but you have to PROVE this. Ways to prove this is by showing them you have a work-visa IN HAND or that you have something crazy like $100,000 USD in the bank.

Getting married to a Spaniard just MIGHT be the easiest way to move to/live in Spain but even that's a pain in the rear and can take up to a year of paperwork. But I don't recommend marrying a Spaniard JUST to have the right to live/work in Spain. But sometimes, if you do love someone in Spain (or even like them a lot) it might be the ONLY option. Tic-Toc

Saludos, MadridMan

Wow, thanks for all the quick and very informative responses. This information, while not all good news, is very helpful.

Well I definately do NOT want to do this the illegal way, last thing I want is to be banned for 10 years from the country I desire to reside in. Not to mention getting low-balled by companies taking advantage of my illegal status. So that's out of the question. Being that I'm from the US and I'm not a refugee, I would have to reside in Spain for 10 years before I could apply for citizenship, is that correct? Not including the marrying a Spaniard option of course. Though that is an option as I am not married, but I'm not about to marry someone on a whim.

Filbert, your idea of working in the UK then transferring to Spain is an interesting idea. Though I must admit I know nothing regarding obtaining visas / residency in the UK regarding US citizens. This is something I will have to research. I would definately be willing to do something of this sort if needed and deemed promising.

As for the self-employed visa, well I definately don't have $100,000 USD or anything remotely close to that saved up in the bank. So unless there's another way to prove that I am not a leech on the economy besides that, this won't work. There is also always the worry that the US company desides to do a "reduction in force" and targets the overseas employee first. Then instant illegal and have to pick up and move back I would assume. Though perhaps not, this is a bit unclear to me. Once you had a self-employed visa, as long as you're able to land a next job (whether a US company or one in Spain), you could probably stay using that visa, that sound right?

I guess I do have one advantage in the fact that I do have a decent arsenal of IT skills. I have Unix, NT, and networking (Cisco etc.) skills so I would just have to overcome the non-Spanish, non-EU issue. I will see how this goes while I'm in Madrid. I will take a stack of resumes with me. Is CV just another name for these? What I mean is the format the same for what the companies will expect to see?

I must admit, when I first starting planning this, I thought it would be much easier to accomplish. I figured that the language barrier was the biggest deal. I see immigrants everywhere I go here in the US, I didn't realize how hard it is elsewhere. But I'm not about to give up! Again, thanks for all the advice, I have some more research ahead of me before I arrive next month!

-Loc

It seems us IT types are the world leaders in wanting to leave our native country!

Loc, I've been trying the applying for a job in Madrid from afar thing for about six months now. So far I've had absolutely zero response. Literally not even an autoresponder! I've spoken to a couple of people in Madrid who are under the impression that as soon as an employer sees the 'UK' (or 'USA' in your case) bit they just chuck the application in the bin as it's a lot of hassle for them when they can employ a local. This is even given the fact that as a UK resident I don't need any visas to work there....

Maybe yourself, Lemming and I need to set up an IT company up in Madrid to employ us all!

The only thing we can do though is keep trying! In the end it will happen! Let us know how you get on.

Dom.

Dommo,

I haven't done very much applying from afar as of yet. But I have read that the success rate from this method is very low indeed. I still plan on continuing to apply simply because I might get lucky, but it definately seems like going there and doing this in person will be the best bet and of course still no guarantee.

The company starting idea is actually not a bad idea at all. Three skilled, intelligent, driven individuals working together can accomplish A LOT. However, I think as the rules state we have to prove that we have $100,000 or something crazy sitting idle in a bank first. And I don't know about you two, but I don't even have nearly a third of that sitting idle! lol

You are right, no giving up. Eventually we will find a way!

-Loc

Sir Loc wrote: A large group of us here joked about this possibility years ago but, of course, no one was really serious, nor was I. Most people living/working in the USA have relatively EXCELLENT paying jobs compared to a similar job in Spain or most places in Europe so they weren't truly all that eager to ditch that and move on to something less secure in Spain. Besides, it seems that even if someone does start their own company, they're obligated to follow Spanish laws in that they MUST first consider/explore/exhaust hiring EU members before hiring outsiders - hiring locals keeps their economy stronger, of course. I don't think you could simply hire who you wanted but I may be wrong. Seems odd, doesn't it, that you couldn't hire whomever you wanted??

Saludos, MadridMan

The company starting idea is actually not a bad idea at all. Three skilled, intelligent, driven individuals working together can accomplish A LOT.

how about setting up a combined language/computer studies school. There are already many successful English language academies in Madrid (so the demand is there) Add in computer courses and you may have a unique product. Also you could provide courses for English-speaking IT people who wanted to learn computer/business jargon in Spanish.
If you want someone to maintain the UK telephone/marketing side I may be able to help!

filbert has a great idea there!

I read and replied to your post under Hostals and other lodging before reading this one.

Like the Catch-22 that another respondant mentioned (i.e., you can't get a work permit unless you have an employment contract and a Spanish Company can't offer you an employment contract unless you have a work permit), there may be a 'loophole.'

If an adequate number of people with your technical specialty cannot be found in Spain, you could get a waiver or your work permit application could be 'fast tracked.' Many countries do this for Doctors and other Professional Specialists. I don't know if that would stretch to Network Engineer or Administrator.

I assume that you are totally fluent in Spanish. If not, ignore the prior paragraph. When you visit in October, try to set up an appointment with a Technical Chief at one of the Hardware/Software houses in Madrid (IBM, Microsoft, Cisco Systems). Hand deliver a CV {Curriculum Vitae} in Spanish. If they are interested, they will find a way to help you.

Another path you might wish to explore is Academia: If you have adequate Academic credentials you might be able to spend a year or a semester as a visiting Professor of Information Technology (or Computer Sciences).

Any ladies want EU Citizenship? je je I came across this on craigslist.com and found it interesting. An Italian guy wanting to marry an American Woman, just for the papers. And no, this is not me. I dont even speak Italian. je je

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/stp/43179635.html
I copied it here:

I'm looking for someone willing to marry me just for the papers. No feelings will be involved:you can't even think about touching me,no kisses,or anything at all.This is just business,nothing else.You get Italian citizenship so that you can go in Italy at any time and do whatever you want there and I get American citizenship. You must be 18 to 25 y/o,born in the US,reliable,willing to stay in LA for at least 2,5 years and under 150 pounds:I'm good looking and the marriage has to seem believable.I'm 23 y/o, male.Contact me for more info and to set up an appointment

this is in or around hollywood
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

Haha, that ad is hilarious!

Filbert's idea is actually a really good one, because by combining the language and IT aspects, it means you have a much more valid argument that you need native English speakers (us ). I was also interested in the idea of offering online Spanish (or English, I guess) courses after I wrote a short website to help myself practise Spanish when I was learning. Correction: when I started learning... the main problem with that as I see it is that there's a lot of competition from high-quality cheap or free sites.

Dommo, do you have an NIE number? I think that's what it's called, I can't remember... I spoke to another kiwi guy who said that he had applied for a lot of jobs but never got any response until he put that on his CV. Even though you and I have legal rights to work, we can't work in Spain without it, and it takes up to two months to arrive. So I guess unless you can show that you have it, they figure they'll be waiting two months for you to start.

Mine is in the post, allegedly....

Ufff... I really hate to burst your bubbles especially since you are all so eager to start this business venture. But.... combining the concept of an "escuela de informática" with an "escuela de idiomas" is nothing new nor unique. It seems that one exists in practically every neighborhood in Madrid (I don´t know about Salamanca). And recently, I have seen a lot of them close down and go out of business.

And don´t kid yourselves, the whole English teaching sector is in a bit of a crisis, take it from someone who is in the business (and no, I am not saying this to thwart any potential competition by any means!!! ).

Ever since about 2 years ago when 3 of the largest English teaching franchises in the country went belly up leaving thousands of teachers unemployed and unpaid (yours truly included) and thousands of Spaniards with horrendous lines of credit that they are still required to pay back despite not receiving the supposed services, your average Spaniard is quite suspect of the language instruction field.

The challenges are numerous. I have since launched my own language consultancy, and while I see growth every month, it´s much slower than we had anticipated. People are reticent and capricious... one month they want classes, the next month they don´t. Gone are the days when a student would happily sign on for a year long course. That means continual recruitment of students (and in sales we all know that it´s more expensive to recruit new than renew old). Continual expense in sales and marketing... and I won´t even discuss the nightmare from the educational side when there is constant incorporation into classes and it´s difficult to maintain a constant rhythm.

Finding professional English teachers is also a challenge. Yes, the TEFL programs exist to train people how to teach, but it´s a bandaid solution to a greater problem. The majority of the TEFL programs are aimed at recent college grads who are looking for their European adventure before settling down into a "real job". This means uncommitted teachers who will leave a teaching job at the drop of a hat. In addition, you cannot put a recent college grad in a company to teach the business executives. There is just absolutely no connection. And for now, the largest piece of the fiancial pie is in in-company/business English classes.

Then from the business side, because the market is flooded with "native speakers" who sell themselves as English teachers (some legitimately and some not), the overall price for English teaching drops making it hard for language schools to find and employ good teachers (because the pay is dismal since no one is willing to pay more) and the big multinationals who want the English instruction are looking for the cheapest way to do it. It´s a constant challenge and until you can build up a dossier of corporate clients who are willing to pay between 35-40€/hour of instruction so you can pay your teachers a fair wage, it´s a long road to hoe.

I´m not trying to be pessimistic about this at all, but rather realistic. I´m more than happy to help you out or offer you advice based on my experience, but believe me, if it were so easy, it would have been done eons ago!

However, I think you are on the right track, you just need to think it through a bit more. Look for the negatives, not just the positives. But hey, you don´t need me to tell you that. I surmise that you all have a bit of business experience behind you!

Good luck!

No sweat guys - I would expect someone already in the location to dampen expectations. Who heard of anyone encouraging competition? I know someone who set up a language school in a suburb of Madrid a year ago. Yes there have been peaks and troughs but by and large it has been a success. Plus, get this. The owner predicted (almost with 100% certainty) when there would be slow and busy periods. Apparently there are well-known peaks and troughs in this business year. I also know of schools that prosper in the centre, and some of the ways they attract customers.
-- Finding professional English teachers is also a challenge. --
I think this comment is one indicator as to potential business. I still feel though that a combined Spanish/IT (why just Spanish, we could get in German or French teachers as well) course would appeal to extranjeros (we'd have to be careful on budgets/numbers here of course)
Naturally, there's a lot more research required here isn't there? (I guessed we already knew that) :p

Chica's response sounds about right.

I'd figured it would probably be difficult and competitive. And while I think the idea of teaching business/IT Spanish to foreigners is a good one, we also have to be realistic about how large the market is. I'm looking at being paid about a quarter of what I got in London, for basically the same job. Life here is cheaper, but not that much. I can afford to make that sort of sacrifice for lifestyle and other benefits (sun, language and looking at Spanish ladies ), but realistically not many can. It's going to limit the amount of time I can spend working in Spain too, I suspect. On a salary of 30k euros (if I'm lucky) I won't be getting home to NZ to see the family too often....

Actually Filbert, I welcome competition. Especially the kind of competition that is going to raise the level and standards of English teaching here in Spain and not those who are looking to make a quick buck while exploiting woefully underpaid, undertrained, undersupported teachers. If we (I) don't fight to bring respectability to the profession, who will?

And it's a no-brainer to expect (predict??) that there are slow periods in the business. Isn't there in any business? English teaching is definitely a cyclical business.

But all that aside, I honestly applaud your enthusiasm and again, am more than happy to answer your questions and help you in any modest way that I can (I don't have all the answers by any stretch of the imagination).

Good suggestion Lemming. I had thought about sorting out my NIE before I went over permanently. The only slight problem is making a personal appearance at a police station. I was trying to curb my habit of flying to Madrid every other weekend in favour of saving the money for my eventual permanent move. I take it there is no way of getting around this? I guess I'll just have to go across for the weekend! Oh the horror

Haha, god that sounds awful!

Plan on it taking at least a day though. I was lucky and got out in a couple of hours, but I could see that sometimes it would take a LOT longer. That was on a weekday too, I don't know if the police station is open on weekends. Get there early is my advice. And you'll need an address to pretend is yours in Madrid too - do you have a friend there or something?

Good luck!

Hey I'll jump in a little late here on this one but I had some ideas-

First (wink) you said you "weren't a refugee", it made me wonder, what if someone made the case to the Spanish government that you WERE a refugee of a country that had an illegal election? Seing as how we all know now Gore really won in 2000. Cultural assylum anyone?

If you want to live in Spain, you could do what I did, just come here and look for a job and be prepared to wait it out. Maybe even choosing a smaller, less visited destination (I hear Murcia's nice) would mean that an academy would be more likely to hire you under the table and possibly help you get your work papers, which would involve two trips to the States, one to file at the spanish embassy, and another (assuming you go back to spain after that) to pick it up, exactly what I did. I strongly believe that if its what you want (to live in Spain) you will find the way. I don't reccomend marrying someone for their papers, though Im sure some people are less scrupulous about this...

Hi again, all!

I was doing a little research about the real possibility of obtaining (for myself) a Self-Employment visa and went to the Spanish Consulate website (@ http://www.consulate-spain-chicago.com/ ) and then the page on the Self-Employment visa ( HERE ) and here are some of the requirements:

Requirements:

1.- Schengen Visa application form, filled out in print and signed, and three photocopies.

2.- 4 recent original passport photographs. Staple one picture to each application form.

ALL DOCUMENTS LISTED BELOW MUST BE SUBMITTED ORIGINALS AND 3 PHOTOCOPIES:

3.- Regular passport, or travel document, still valid for 6 more months, with at least one blank page to affix the visa.

4.- Non-US Citizens: Alien Registration Card or notarized copy of it, or Visa, or Reentry permit or other BCIS (Bureau of Citizenship & Immigration Services) document allowing return to the US.

5.- Official Work Authorization approved by pertinent Labor Authorities in Spain, or

a.- Declaration of specific type of activity or occupation to engage in;

b.- Proposal of a projected business to engage in, with market analysis and feasibility study showing sufficient investment;

c.- Diploma of education degree required for proposed activity, validated by Spanish Authorities;

d.- Bank statement from a bank in Spain showing a minimum balance of $100,000 ( ) or certificate by the Direction General of Foreign Transactions that applicant has investments in Spain for said amount, or Public Deeds showing investments in Spain for same amount, or a combination of all three for the same established amount.

6.- Certificate(s) by police authorities of country(ies) where applicant resided for more than six months during the last five years, as to the absence of police record. If the country is not the U.S., the certificate must be legalized by the Spanish Consulate in that country.

7.- Medical Certificate: a doctor’s recent statement, on doctor's or medical center's letterhead, indicating that the applicant has been examined and found in good physical and mental health to reside abroad and perform the activity applied for.

8.- Valid health/accidental insurance with full international coverage with a minimum coverage of $37,000.

9.- Non-refundable visa processing fee. Money Order payable to the Consulate General of Spain or cash (exact change). Personal checks cannot be accepted. US citizens: $100.00. Non-US citizens: $72.36.

IF RESIDENCE VISAS WILL ALSO BE REQUESTED FOR THE FAMILY OF THE APPLICANT, THE APPLICATIONS SHOULD BE SUBMITTED AT THE SAME TIME. EACH FAMILY MEMBER MUST PRESENT ALL OF THE DOCUMENTS LISTED ABOVE, EXCEPT #5, AND:

FOR SPOUSE: Marriage Certificate. If the country is not the U.S., the certificate must be legalized by the Spanish Consulate in the country where the document was issued.

FOR CHILDREN: Birth Certificate. If the country is not the U.S., the certificate must be legalized by the Spanish Consulate in the country where the document was issued.

v PLEASE NOTE: Residency visas require special authorization from Spain; therefore, they take an unspecified period of time to be processed.
================
Anyone have $100,000 I could borrow and deposit in a Spanish bank for some period of time??? Didn't think so.

By the way, the above Spanish Consulate (in Chicago) link also provides information about other visas including the following:

* Tourist and Transit Visas (for a stay of up to 90 days )
* Business Visas (business, conferences or related trips)
* Business Visas (for a stay of up to 90 days in a period of a year)
* Student Visas (only for full time students, not allowed to work).
* Residence visa to work in Spain as an employee
* Residence visa to reunite a family
* Residence visa to retire in Spain
* Residence visas for investors or self-employment
* Residence visa for non-lucrative purposes
* Residence visa exempt from the obligation of requesting work permit (e.g. missionary, internship, au-pair, professor, etc)

The Chicago website covers MY region of the USA. For other regions and locations/websites of other USA-based Spanish consulates visit http://www.spainemb.org/ingles/consulate/consulates.htm

MadridMan

Haven't you thought about the fact that:
1. The people of Madrid accept Yankis as tourists but dont actually like them.
2. After seeing USA take over half the globe and leave it with Gangsta Rap, maybe there is a feeling that its not worth accepting the dollars?
Different strokes etc.

I think that people who meet Americans often end up with a different impression to that which Steven refers to. As a Brit myself I can understand why people from other countries view us (the Brits) as sometimes arrogant and liable to form cliques. A common complaint is that a Spaniard can go into a bar populated by British ex-pats and feel excluded/in a foreign country. Americans (if we are talking stereotypes) are viewed as being very friendly but somewhat naive.
As for the visa rules - these apply to non-EU residents I assume. If the rules are hard for an American trying to move to Spain that's tough. Unless I had highly desirable work skills I would not be allowed to live/work in the States. Spend my vacation money on the other hand and I'm very welcome. This is the case in most parts of the world. I don't think it is unique to either Spain or the States...

Hi!
I just read these posts and I'd like to say that getting a job in Madrid also depends on the necessity of professionals in certain areas.

I know that there was a serious shortage of EFL teachers in the 80s and it seemed to recover during the 90s; but there's now a new trend which is trying to establish bilingualism in both public and private schools, etc.

In the case of IT professionals, it depends on what you're looking for:

There is a list of professional exceptions where no visa is needed:

http://www.mir.es/sites/mir/extranje/regimen_general/trabajo/circunstancias.html

You may go to the Spanish Embassy in your country and try to get a workin permit:

http://dgei.mir.es/

Or to any other EU State embassy and get it there and then come to Spain; for instance, as somebody's already mentioned, the UK, Ireland, etc.

There is a great demand for IT specialists in Spain. I'll post an example of today's job vacancies:

http://www.infojobs.net/busqueda_ofertas_lista_home.cfm?RequestTimeOut=500

You may laso try to look for a job in an American institution (School, University, Company or even the Government, such as the US Embassy - www.embusa.es - or the Nasa, Department of Defense, etc).

Try also American Languages Schools:

Wall Street Institue
Berlitz

There's a wide range of possibilities and if you fix your goals it is not that difficult. You have to take into account that the higher the education (M.A, PhD, etc) the better.

Serious companies and big firms have their own human resources department to which you can send your resume too. I know of a great deal of places with a multinational envirnoment here in Madrid.

Good luck