Marriage for Residency

How easy is it to obtain Spanish residency through marriage? What is the process? If an American marries an Española, what will it take to get the residency card which also gives permission to live, work and study as a resident? (I understand this is the green colored card) And what other documents will be necessary? Rental contract with both names on it? Anything else? And if the marriage is only for purposes of residency, are the Spanish officials strict on making sure that the marriage is valid and that the couple actually lives together? Can an American marry any EU resident and then get residence to live and work in Spain? Are these procedures the same for other nationalities, particularly persons from Panama? All advice is truly appreciated. Thanks.

Que bruto! I should have read the whole " the marriage process? " post section before writing my post above under another section. It was very helpful. The links were great and it was encouraging to read the step by step process of you guys going through the maze. But even after reading it I still have a couple questions.

Still, I would like to know if the same processes apply to residents of Panama and other countries. And once all the paperwork is done, will I be able to study as if I were from Spain? And again, do the Spanish authorities (either in the US or Spain) verify that it is a "real" marriage, and not just a marriage for residency purposes?

Here's my plan, I'd love to hear what you all who have done this before think. Go to Spain on the 90 day tourist visa, marry an Española (for purely residential reasons) and go back to the states, get my "regrupación familiar" visa and then back to Spain to get the residency. What I am confused on is whether that residency will give me the option to work and study freely or not. Chica mentioned that she had to go and separately apply for the work permit along with the specific oferta de trabajo. But later, Mencey got the residency AND work visa State-side. Anyone have a clarification or comments on marriages in Spain that are for residency purposes only? Thanks. Jakob

Man, you are kidding, aren't you?

Yes, it is horrible, but do you know another way to get a work visa? I am told that in Feburary a new law went into effect that drastically reduced the amount of work visas that the government was giving out to non-EU residents. Is there anyone out there that has applied for a work visa after Feburary? If so, did you get the visa?

No, I'm not kidding. Sure, it may not be the most romantic option. But why the frown, Nuria?

Maybe Nuria thinks marriage vows are sacred. She's not alone. Is that so hard to fathom?!

Jakob,
It is illegal and it is not fair. There are laws against that for a reason. If you cannot get to the country in a legal way you just don't stay in the country, period.
Do you know what happen in the US? That because of people like you, people like me, who got married for the right reasons, have to go through hell in other to get the papers done.
Do you realize you are being dishonest?
Maybe you don't care, but actions like yours are the ones that make the residents of a country to dislike foreigners trying to get the residenci. Shame on you.

Yeah shame on you Jakob, trying to bend the rules a little bit and get around some red tape to live in another country. How many people in this world do that kind of thing? Millions I would say, especially in underdeveloped countries which Spain is not, but still. There are worse ways to get residency aren't there? My policy is "whatever works"! And I say go for it Jakob, if you can get anyone out there to give you a straight answer to your question.

That's not right. Yes, lots of people do it, but it still doesn't make it right. I can't say I'm totally against it, but Spain also isn't capable of taking on all of the foreigners that are forcing their way to its borders. I'm not saying stay in your country, I've been fighting this burocratic battle for the better part of my life, I'm half spanish and STILL can't go to stay! Maybe I'm just stupid trying to do it legally, but really! And yes, I am engaged to a Spaniard, but I'm still trying to get there on my own merits. Our wedding is still a couple years away, I'm NOT marrying him just to be able to live there. I'm not casting stones because I can totally understand someone doing it for other than love. However, ask yourself why visiting isn't enough and if its more than just a whim. If you're going there because you think its going to be better than where you live, well you may be in for quite a shock! People had and have the same impression of the United States and we all know its not easy for them, and the US has more resources to absorb a higher population with all its demands. I do hope that if this is the route you're going, that you have something to contribute, and not going to add to the problems of unemployment and overpopulation. If you truly appreciate the country and love it that much to want to be a part of it, I hope its to contribute and not to strip it. Otherwise save up your vacation time!

Calm down! He only asked a straight question. There's no need to lynch him. If you personally disapprove of his methods, then set up a thread on Things I Find Morally Outrageous. Meanwhile, I think Jakob asked a valid question and is entitled to a an answer from anyone who may be more informed on the matter.

Espe3, How is it that you are half-spanish but can´t get residency/citizenship in Spain? It´s a little off the topic of the post, but I am interested in problems other people have had trying to become legal in Spain, seeing as I am going to be getting a civil marriage very soon so that I can stay in Spain. It seems like everything should work, but it makes me nervious when someone who is half-spanish is having problems.

Well, even be it to my own surprise, I'd like to send a cordial shout-out to the Christian Right and other simple minded people who thrive on rules who are making quite a presense in this Madrid message board! All my best.

And about all these accustations of not respecting the sanctity of marriage, breaking rules, etc, etc. Here's my take on the situation: If the way I am speaking of is not for you, then its not for you. But I'm surprised at the eager willingness to dog someone for presenting what IS a valid option for getting residencey in a country. But lets look at the context of this message: An American Webpage Dedicated to Madrid and Spain, under the Working in Spain secion. Can you see the inherit hypocracy in your criticizm?

True, it is becoming very hard for non EU citizens to do anything more than be a tourist in Spain. Based on my research, they're not giving out work permits (folks from the UK can fill any need for a native English speakers), and residency through any other method is virtually impossible: various forms of assylum (not possible for US citizens), retirement (not our age group), investment ($100K or more). And that's all, folks.

The only way you can get a work permit is if you're contracted by a multinational, or if you can get hired by a company and proove that you have skills that no Spaniard has. Tough to do.

This being the case, all that is left is illegal work. So what's worse? And who are you to judge?

How long have you all spent outside the States? My guess is not long. So here's a thought: It might also be small minded people who get Americans a bad reputation all over the world.

In closing, dejen de criticar lo que no es asunto suyo y concentren en lo positivo.

Jakob

Jacob, you AND guinnessgal420 are BOTH in San José, Costa Rica? What are the chances of that? Do you know each other????

As for MY opinion on this very sensitive subject, I tend to agree with Nuria. People SHOULD take the legal route or not take the route at all. I know many many many (yes, MANY!) people live/work illegally in Spain, but I guess it's all a matter of conscience and mine is overwhelming. I can't help it. To each his/her own, I guess.

I suppose it IS possible to marry and get recidency, but you'll have to take care of all the details like making your presence known to your spouse's neighbors/family/coworkers, have your name on her mailbox AND receive mail there, and do all the normal things you'd have to do in order to get married to someone IN Spain (and believe me, it's TOUGH!). Then, there's the "interview" which can also be difficult if you don't really know each other very well.

Anyway, I certainly don't recommend nor condone obtaining residency through marriage if you don't love the spouse nor intend to live together. I'd say, don't do it.

Saludos, MadridMan

MadridMan,

The Guiness Gal is a friend of mine down here, I had her take a look at your message board to see what kind of response I was getting. I was amused and dissapointed to see that she had posted; amused because the response was a bit of comic relief, but dissapointed because our both being from Costa Rica reduced my credibility.

Apart, thank you for the first logical and impartial response to my question in a long time. Even though it was not the answer I wanted, you stated logical reasons for your position. I totally respect that. And as part of your reasoning, I learned about steps I wasn't aware of in this process, like an "interview".

By the way, how tough is immigration on the many illegals you know? Do they pretty much let it slide? Or is the situation unstable for those who choose to work illegally in Spain?

Jakob

Jakob,

Although I personally don't agree with your point of view in reference to marrying for residency, I know it's more common than people want to believe. It's done all the time here in the US, usually by men from third world nations who want to gain residency through marriage. If caught, even years later, if the government finds out that's what you did, you're deported. In fact the US government recently deported a man who was married under those circumstances nearly fifteen years ago.

But, from what I gather, Spain is even less likely to accept "arranged marriages" for the sake of getting residency. Their rules are tightening every day, and even if you attain legal status, through the marriage, I would imagine there's an astringent "time test" that the marriage must last through, to make the situation work. In a way, I wonder if you might find it easier to try to gain residency the legal way... without bending rules. Especially if you get caught and end up being personna non gratis for the rest of your life, because of the con.

I don't think your assessment of all of us who believe in the sanctity of marriage is correct. I think calling us "right wing Christians" is way off base. I'm not amongst that group, but I do believe in marriage as a permanent thing, between two people who want to spend their lives together. In my case, my bride and I have nearly 38 years of wedded bliss behind us, and there is no one else for either of us, and we've tried to instill this same feeling into our children. That certainly isn't right wing Christianity, it's a position of personal mores, nothing more or less.

Wolf (I'm back!!!)

Barry, CHILL!
I think I made myself pretty clear. I'm going to leave it at that. If my post was misinterpreted or was the reason of 'setting off' anyone (which I doubt, I don't see that it can be considered to be on a moral high-horse) then so be it. Yes, everyone has a right to their opinion, and that goes to anyone who wants to reply to a post, the person who puts it up has to be ready to hear what people answer, and put up with some of the answers or responses to those responses and not necessarily the original post. Its a chain reaction. Sorry if you took it the wrong way. Yes he does have the right, and he will surely get some information, but also has to expect to get some opinions wanted or not, along the way. I'm plenty informed on the subject, just choose not to share more information. I see you're in Madrid and you're not offering him anything except to criticize the people responding.

J- as for your question on how closely they monitor you, I don't know for sure, but I can tell you that depending on where you come from they will keep a closer watch on you or not. Good or bad for you I don't know, but it has to do with the problems of immigration and the areas from which people are coming, mainly Africa and Latin/Central America. I don't know how they would view Costa Rica. MM is right, its complicated and it takes awhile to do too. You also have to think about how long you're planning on being with that person. I'd like to ask something of you too. Because some of the replies you received didn't agree with you, don't assume that its because people are small minded or aren't well traveled. If you only knew! My request, be more tolerant. It makes us all better people, and besides, you wanting to live in a different country and so 'worldly, open-minded and well traveled' should know better. You had to have known that you would be starting a touchy topic, and it seems to me that if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

Roe, we spoke already so you know my situation better and what's going on. But I wouldn't be overly concerned. Just be patient! Good luck to you!

Hey Espe3, Just wanted to let you know that I am behind you on what you had written. The bottom line is that, it makes it so much harder on the people(like us) that really want to do it in the legal or 'clean' way, but on the other hand, I also understand that it's part of life (unfortunately ), as with other things in life. And people will do what they feel they must do, and life goes on. And trust me, I'm far from perfect, but I, at least, do try to make life easier, in all things, for myself and for others too. Each person must do what is best for him, and that's it...
And MM and Wolf, Thumbs Up on your posts. Perfectly done!!! AND a added comment on the posts(below) by Chica, you are so right, so 3 thumbs up for you
LittleWing

Wow! What heated responses!

What I find so interesting (it´s off topic for a sec MM, bear with me) is the double morality projected by the United States. Just a few minutes ago my husband and I were discussing it. The high moral standards regarding marriage and many other topics and the riduculously high divorce rate in the USA. Perhaps marriage isn´t all that it´s cracked up to be? Or perhaps people aren´t taking it realistically? I don´t know...all I know is that I don´t want to be a statistic. I am behind you guys on the sanctity of marriage vows AND Jakob, I am well traveled. I have 2 more continents to go before I achieve my life dream of stepping foot on all 7 (yes you Europeans....7 ) of them. Oh and get this, I am an AMERICAN. Is that possible? A well travelled American with moral standards?? (note the sarcasm)

Jakob brought up some valid points with his observation of the MM board. What about all the Americans who are living here in Spain illegally and working illegally? Those who have no qualms with announcing that they will arrive here and just do what they can do? Is that anymore WRONG than marrying for papers? When is wrong really wrong? And when is wrong right? Do you see my point?

I don´t personally support Jakob´s decision or desire to marry for papers, but let´s be honest with ourselves, people marry for much more and much less....inheritance, money, security and yes... sometimes love. Furthermore, this isn´t about flaming others for their decisions.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if Jakob succeeds in marrying for papers, he isn´t the only one involved. There is a Spaniard on the other end facilitating the process. So, get angry with the other Spaniards who marry for money, who hire illegal immigrants to provide American (and other) tourists service in restaurants, hotels, etc.

The illegal immigration situation in the USA is BIG BUSINESS and a huge economic factor for countries such as Mexico. It is heading in that same direction for Spain and Morrocco.

Jakob, as you have read in other posts of mine... The paperwork process is a hassle for (North) Americans, but not impossible. It just requires patience and perserverance. I think that has as much to do with the USA gov´t as it does the Spanish. I don´t know if there are different agreements and processes for Costa Rica.

From my personal experience, the immigration process here in Spain is not as harrowing as the immigration process in the USA. This coming from an American point of view whose father is a naturalized American citizen.

MM referred to a number of specifics:

Making your presence known: All I do (did) is be my friendly self and greet my neighbors when I see them on the street. Nothing more nothing less. You don´t have to invite them over for a cup of coffee and tell them your life story. There isn´t a need to know or meet your spouse´s coworkers. At least I don´t know my husband´s coworkers.

Name on mailbox: Purely practicality. How will the mailman know where to deliver your mail if your name is not on the box? How will he know that YOU live there?

Interview: A five minute process where the Guardia Civil came to our house, asked to see my paperwork and copy (resguardo) of my solicitation for residency and my American passport. I suppose they were checking it for stamps and dates. The guy flipped through it pretty quickly and focused on the personal information section. Asked how long we had been married. If I was working. I said yes...under the table teaching English courses on the side. No problem. No questions about his favorite color, favorite food, what side of the bed he sleeps on, what his father does for a living, etc. You know, the "standard" questions from the movie Greencard. None of that nonsense. Stuff American immigration is made of. Who knows though, may change in the future here in Spain as the immigration situation increases.

MM would know more about the steps necessary to marry in Spain. I married in the USA and then legalized the papers in Spain.

In short Jakob, there will be risks that you will have to take and serious decisions that you will have to make. No one can make them for you. I personally hope you can acquire residency without the marriage of convenience. But that is asunto mío.

I would love to go to Costa Rica someday. My sister spent her honeymoon there and said it was absolutely beautiful!

Good Luck!

Saludos desde España

Chica, with the new law that went into effect this year, it is almost impossible unless you are from Chile or Peru (I think) or a decendant of a Spaniard and I would call the process more than just a "hassel". Like I said before, I would like to hear from anyone who has gotten a work visa in Spain if they applied after Febuary, when I am told the new law went into effect, to see if this is true.

Also a note on the sanctity of marriage: The topic is a civil marriage, not a religious one. After a civil marriage, you get a peice of paper that will let you get another little piece of paper that lets you work in the country. This isn´t swearing before God to love and cherish your mate until death.

Jakob, how ignorant of you to assume that anyone who defends marriage is automatically from the "Christian right". Oh, how my friends would laugh at you for that--we get teased for being "bleeding heart liberals." Did you ever stop to think that one big reason why we all love Spain is because it is full of the wonderful Spanish peoples and cultures? Do we really want it all filled up with Americans like us? How about working under the table a bit, or studying there--maybe you'll really meet somebody and marry for real--or return to the States and make some real money so you can go back to visit whenever you want?

Roe, I´m sorry. I didn´t explain clearly in my post that I was responding to Jakob´s original question of gaining residency after marriage to a Spaniard. The process of residency as a result of marriage is a bureaucratic hassle it´s not an impossibility.

However, if you are looking to get residency without marriage and applying through immigration, then yes, I am with you...you have a difficult road ahead.

A marriage, be it through the religious church service, or a civil service, to a Spaniard, will entitle you to apply for residency (residencia comunitaria). This status will grant you the same rights as any other resident or citizen of the European Community. At least that is how I understand it. If anyone has any further information and would like to share it (Espe for example), please do so. There are many people out there who learn from the posts on this board. Not just those who post the original question.

With regards to marriage vows, the civil service may be without all the ceremonial religious acts, but you are still taking marriage vows which become more than just a little piece of paper that enables you to get another piece of paper. The marriage license is a legal document. Anyone who plans on getting married in Spain (or anywhere) for papers or love or whatever reason, better fully understand the obligations of that legal decision and any financial (and other) obligations that come as a result of divorce.

Ah, Chica - always the calm, quiet voice of reason. MM and Wolf more or less pegged the answer - it ain't ours to condemn or approve of Jakob; what one of us might do - or teach our kids to do - wasn't the question he asked. Chica's comments about the other party in a for-convience marriage has to make you think - no?

Reading through this thread has been fascinating...I am intrigued to hear people's comments about marriage and the reasons for getting married. I've gotten married twice, once for the "wrong" reason (not for papers or residency, but because it's what you're "supposed" to do after dating for a while, isn't it?). I had reservations about it, but didn't listen to them...and ended up having to go through the trouble and expense and embarrassment of getting divorced.

I have gay friends who have married partners of the opposite sex in order to qualify for insurance benefits, or because they were embarrassed to admit their homosexuality to their families. I have known people who got married even though they knew it would never last--and I have friends who are in committed, long-term relationships but don't believe in marriage.

And I have known people who are married and stay married, despite abuse, affairs, neglect, or cruelty--or simply falling "out of love" with each other. Is that less wrong than marrying a friend to get residency or insurance?

Marriage means so many different things to differnet people, and I don't feel like I can criticize Jakob for his decision any more than I can criticize people who stay in loveless or unhappy marriages to preserve appearances. Their decisions are theirs alone.

BUT, I do have one bit of unsolicited advice for him (prompted by Chica's comments above)--be sure, ABSOLUTELY SURE, that the person you marry knows what she's getting into. If it's a business arrangement, she had better know that too!! If she's an adult and makes the choice to marry you, that's fine--but she should be fully informed about your motives beforehand. No woman (no PERSON) deserves any less.

Chica,

Your response to this post represents the epitome of tolerance. What a refreshing change! You're a gem! !Viva Chica!

Ditto for TaraV.

Wow. 24 hours away from the message board and this thread has tripled! Thanks for all the information and opinions about this matter. Each and every response: good, bad, positive, negative, impartial, ignorant, enlightening, heated, or calmed… sheds a different light on the subject as a whole, and allows me to take a well rounded view of the matter, and is appreciated.

I started this thread just simply looking for the facts. But I got a lot more than I was looking for. In retrospect, I think it’s a good thing. The more informed I am, the better, including people’s personal about my matter. Best to know that there’s a strong resentment against marriages for residency purposes in advance, right?

About the Christian Right comment: Sorry. I shouldn’t have associated valuing the sanctity of marriage with conservative religious and political beliefs. Again, I do think folks who criticize my post based on marriage being sacred and legality alone and without anything else to say are small-minded, and in the wrong thread. I want to send special props to those who at least had logical arguments to support their opinions.

Chica, thanks for all the detailed information. You’ve definitely helped me get a good idea of what I’m thinking about taking on. And, of course, I think your whole tranquility vibe and hella mature nature rocks. Needless to say, I didn’t ever classify you as a small minded, conservative, well traveled American. You had a point. You are not the small-minded type who I was slamming.

Wolf, thanks for the warning on possible consequences. And I tip my hat to your 38 years of marriage and wanting to instill those values on your kids.

Espe3, thanks for putting me in check and pointing out that I should know how to take the heat I was getting. And thanks for the advice.

LittleWing, yup. It probably looks like I’m cutting in line to you. Thumbs up you too.

Roe, good point: almost impossible is right. And you’re right about civil marriages.

Aidance, how ignorant of you not to give your post a good read before sending it. Your friends would laugh at me? Dude, what are you talking about? And then telling me to work illegally! Breaking a rule is breaking a rule, you can’t stand up and say that I shouldn’t break rule A and then tell me to break rule B instead. Einstein.

Puna, thanks for standing up for the merits of my question and for clear thought in general.

Taravb, thanks for your insight and personal view on the matter. You are so right about the other spouse being in complete awareness from the word go. I would have thought of nothing less. Your post is a good lead in to my closing here so read on.

Seul6, I know, Chica does ROCK!
Here is how I see marriage, and if you disagree then you just don’t get it. Marriage is an institutional right. Everybody has it once they are of age. Ideally it is for a man and a woman who will love each other for the rest of their lives. But in practice, many marriages do not fit the ideal. Why? Because with marriages come certain rights: tax and insurance benefits, inheritance, social acceptance for the relationship (in some cases), for some it means you can finally get laid, it’s easier to get a loan, you get to wear a pretty ring and have a big celebration when you commit, and you can get residency in an otherwise inaccessible country. Somehow, these rights have been associated with the ideal man and woman who will love each other until death do they part. Take a look at the situation in the states: 50% of men and women who take the vows divorce. Who knows how many of the other 50% of marriages are separated, or together and unhappy, or unfaithful. My point is that we can assume that over half of the marriages in the US end up far from the ideal.

Some recommended that I might find a Spanish girl I really love, and I could marry her. Please, pull your head out of the clouds and look at what you are saying. It’s outrageous. That is a complete setup for marriage failure.

What if we look at what so many divorces in the US are telling us from a different perspective? Is it perhaps absurd to associate the above-mentioned rights with the actual love and life-long commitment?

Stick that in your pipe.

Loosing your heads and posting confused, angry and sad faces about my question on how to exchange rights with another consenting adult through marriage will do no good. Try taking some positive action. You all might dedicate some time and volunteer as marriage counselors, lobby to stop allowing drunk people to elope in Las Vegas after meeting 48 hours earlier at a blackjack table, push for mandatory counseling before a marriage license can be granted, or try to get the legal age to marry raised to 25 when you can bet the bride and groom are going to have a better idea of the commitment they are making than they would at 18.

A simple union to exchange rights is not in fact a “marriage”. Though one would have all of the legal rights of marriage. Two people would be uniting for a common goal, and would be exercising their right to marry and share the benefits of marriage.

Guardians of the sanctity of marriage: You should have nothing to worry about from my situation. If I do marry a consenting and aware Spanish girl, we will have no children of divorced parents, no domestic problems, no court battles, no hard feelings, none of the nasty side effects of a failed marriage.

I think I got a lot of heat and disapproval from people who got married for the “right” reasons and did it the “legal” way. You all probably feel that I would be cheating, and that cases like mine would reduce the validity of your own marriages. Look, I have the same right as you do to be married. Nobody can hold a magic meter up between you and your parejas andst to see if you really love each other. And they can’t do that to me either.

Love and commitment and the dream of being able to share a life with someone is something that is becoming more and more separate from the institution of marriage every day. I could go on and on, cite separation of church and state and put you all to sleep, but I’d best leave it at that.

Thanks to you all for the perspectives and information.

Jakob

Jakob,
I'm glad that everyone's input has put somethings into perspective for you. Also, that upon reading all of our different opinions that it enlightened you to a new understanding of the sensitivity and seriousness of the issue.

That is what most of us are here for, aside to share a common interest, but to gain understanding and no better way for that then a bit of debating!

Good luck in making things work out. It may take some time, but the better things in life are worth waiting for. I'm learning as I deal with my own issues and complications with all this paperwork, that persistence and patience are key. The persistence I've got down pat, the patience thing I'm still working on! But if you're looking for a quick way out, well, even marriage isn't going to solve that one for you. Here's a bit more information:

Once you're married and have all your paperwork done, there is a time limit to where you guys have to be 'living together'. They probably will check up on you, like I said before, depending on where you're from, they'll be more interested in checking in on you than other people. My understanding is that Chica is american, Nobody over thinks that an american is crazy enough to leave what we have here and trade it in for living over there (if only they knew!). So its not suspect that someone from the US would do something like that to be able to stay over there. So that all depends.

Once you do decide to divorce, (there is a minimum of 6 months, or at least that was 2 years ago) before you can even APPLY for a divorce. Before you apply for a divorce in spain, you have to apply for a legal separation. You will have to prove that either you moved out, or the other person did, and that you've been living apart for 6 months (so far that's 1 year). Then you have to apply for divorce, your
'significant other' will then get served and has time to contest the divorce or not. Then you wait for the judge to give you an appt. and will grant or deny the petition for divorce. If you have a lawyer help you, it doesn't have to take that long (although I don't know the time limit here for either way) or if you do it by yourself, well, there you go. Then there's something else to consider. If you're seen with someone else, that could complicate things. You have to KNOW that the person who does this with you isn't going to decide to mess with you later as if it were a real marriage and take you to the cleaners. Also, even if you're not seen with anyone else. If its found out that its a fraud, well, the spanish citizen is looking at jail, you at deportation and to be exiled from being able to return for 10 years. There are no guarentees... even if you have no money to loose, you could be messing yourself up in other ways. If you've only begun your search for information, there's plenty more for you to do to keep yourself busy!

Now, if you have spanish blood, you'd still have to go through the regular divorce mess, but after being married to a spanish citizen for a year, you can ask for spanish nationality. But until you get it... well again, if they find out it was a trick, you're back at square one. Its serious business. People do it in the US all the time, and they're risking a lot also. I would think that this is a last resort kind of solution. Those people also risk being discovered and deported to their homeland, which may not be the best of places to be for them.

Some food for thought.
Good luck!

And stay out of trouble! :o

What about if you want to live with somebody without marrying or working? Does somebody know if I have to limit my stay to 3 months?
Help please!!

I'm afraid living with someone without marrying or working won't do the trick. You'd have to leave once the 3 months are up, stay there illegally, get married, or somehow manage to get working papers, which, if you've read other threads here, you know is almost impossible for Americans. If simply living with a Spaniard would make an American in Spain legal, I think Spain would be quickly overrun with americanos from both hemispheres!

Wow I can't believe all of this! I had no idea that it was so hard to live in Spain. I was in Madrid last summer and fell in love not only with Spain but with a spainard, Felix. All I have been trying to do since returning to Florida in August is find a way to get back to Madrid. We are both 20 and want to be together but do not have the funds and now it looks as though the money is the least of our problems. Wow this really sucks.

Whatever you think of it, the "marriage route" may not stay open for much longer. Immigration has become a political hot potato in the EU and one way or another things are likely to get tighter in the near future (the recent EU summit in Sevilla was dedicated to the topic). Some countries (e.g., Denmark) are not waiting for EU-wide agreements and are already tightening their own immigration laws, in particular they are aiming to close the phoney marriage "loophole". This creates tensions because the idea of the EU is that if you're a citizen of a member state then you can go wherever you want in the EU to live and work. If some countries start not accepting other countries' rules for citizenship, then the barriers will start to go back up. There's been a marked shift to the right in recent national elections within the EU, linked to concerns about immigration. I think we can expect to see the entry requirements getting tighter, and the more obvious tricks like the phoney marriage will be targeted.

Roe,
I'm just going to answer your question about applying for a work permit after Feb 02. I applied in March 2002 and just received all my papers. I did it through the multi-national I already worked for in New York and am a US citizen. So, it is not impossible.

MAD, could you give me any info on your case? What type of multi-nacional? Like what level employee you are? (if you don´t think that is too personal) And also do you know if your employer used lawyers at all or just turned in the paperwork? I just heard from so many different people that things were frozen, so I pretty much gave up hope. I´ll start looking into the process again.

Hey Diana, where are you from in Pennsylvania?

If you get married for residency be ready for headaches of the legal kind! Not to mention headaches from the morality police as we see here!

I been living & working in Madrid nearly 15 years. I travel as a tourist & return to N.Y. every 60 days. I buy caribbean arts & craft & sell it at the rastro. Never a problem if you applied yourself & keep a low profile.

Jakob,
You better quit before one of our lady member sends a hit man after you. I have not read all the posts, but Jakob, have you ever thought of getting a residents permit via a job? I'm sure Spain has some kind of permit that allows a foreigner to be a resident.

Chica,
As for the USA, keep in mind our home land has 230 million plus people and morals vary quite a bit from one ethnic group to another. Compared to the USA, Spain does not face the "melting pot" issues (in complexity) we have at home.

OK, so I apologize to anybody that was offended by my posts. You'll have to excuse me, I didn't know that going against illegal acts was so wrong.
And I am not really fond of the church and I don't believe marriage is something sacred that cannot be touch, but I don't think it is right to do something illegal in order to live in another country.
However, you have the right to do whatever you want and I shouldn't judge anybody for doing it, so good luck.

Nuria

Cubatex writes:
While I agree with what you say regarding the USA being a melting pot, I wholeheartedly disagree with your above statement Cubatex! Are you suggesting that one ethnic group is more moral than another? Goodness I hope not!

Morals are not a reflection of an ethnic group, but rather how a person is raised. While ethnicity, as it relates to a cultural factor, may have some influence on one´s moral position, there are many other factors in play, particularly in country like the USA where the ethnic lines in many areas are extremely blurred.

Chica,
Read my post again. Did I say one group was better than the other anywhere on my post? All I'm saying is that what may be moraly important for one group may not be as important to another. I'm not saying one group is more moral than another.

For example, I was raised in Cuba and the USA, and raised to respect other people's faith. In the country I live in now, Saudi Arabia, all religions but Islam are outlawed, and only Islam is recognized. Others are considered 'infidels' and that is the way the locals are raised (morals?). That does not make one group better than the other, just plain different. Morals, customs, way of life, whatever you want to call it, blend together and affect a person's or a group's morals.

ROE I work for a big global bank and am a middle / upper middle level manager. The bank did hire a lawyer for me and there was a lot (and still is a little) paperwork. Feel free to email me if you want some more details.