High Speed Internet Access and Shipping Computers from USA

I am considering moving to Spain for 1-2 years.

My greatest concern is that I run an Internet Business (California Corporation) and I do not want that to suffer. Being Internet based, shouldn't be a problem, right? As long as I've got dedicated high speed access and a couple of my most powerful machines, I'm good to go.

I heard from a friend that there is no DSL in Europe but rather ISDN only and I heard it's rather expensive. Is this true and applicable to Spain? Anyone know the typical cost of high-speed access in Pesetas per month?

Does anyone know what import policies there might be in regards to shipping American computers to Spain (in other words, I'd want to bring a couple of my main servers with me). Is it a nightmare or reasonably feasible?

Anyone have experience moving their Internet business to Spain or at least running their American based Internet business from a remote location such as Spain/Europe? Thanks for your time! EDR

Hi EDR: Well, I live here in Madrid but have not moved my Internet business here. I do however work with the Internet and connections, etc... You have been misinformed as to the availablity of DSL in Europe, at least in Spain. Here in Madrid most areas have DSL and, although less available, cable connectivity. You can get DSL here btu there is usually a bit of a wait. The fastest I have known Telefónica to put the line in has been 2 weeks and the slowest 11 months (ouch!!!). The problem is that Telefónica is the only comp. that currently offers DSl. Madridtel ( www.madritel.com )offers cable but gives you a monthly traffic limit and charges per MEGA above that limit so it can get very expensive if you are sending and receiving large amounts of info. As for the prices, DSL costs 6,500 pts./month for unlimited access and the modem runs anothe 23,000 or so. So, it is not expensive at all.

Regarding your shipping your Servers over, unless they have a dual voltage switch on the power feeds, it may not be a great idea for here we are on 220V and there you use 110. I bought my PC here and it has a switch in the back for US voltage but I doubt the US PC manufacturers are so accomodating. You can of course use voltage adapters but I personally would not risk such expensive equipment to one of those, no matter how good.

So, hope I have helped. If you want to know anything else, just e-mail me.

Take care, Jeremy...

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[This message has been edited by MadridMan (edited 03-19-2001).]

Jeremy,

This is excellent information! Thank you so much! The DSL matter was Muy Importante!

Would you consider your unlimited dedicated DSL reliable? Does it go down alot? What typical speeds do you get uploading and downloading (same as America), i.e, 384kbps download, 128kbps upload (at min)?

Last but not least, do you think all major cities in Spain have this new DSL accommodation or just the larger Madrid?

Perhaps, if Telefonica is the main phone company in Spain they may either know of or be able to refer me to the appropriate companies concerning DSL issues in Barcelona and perhaps Seville/Granada?

Actually, thanks to you, I found the Telefonica web site, so now I can continue correspondence with them on the DSL issue.

Muchas Gracias por su ayuda!

Have a great evening! EDR

Jeremy....hmmmm....rings a bell... i bet you are the guy with the ads in InMadrid....am i right?!?!?!? could you tell us about this "Internet for Free" stuff that you have in those ads....i'd love to know what that is all about?!?!?! Venga, i'd love to hear about it!
Saludos,
Rhonda

Most things Jeremy said were right, but I'd like to make a few points.

First, what we have here in Spain is ADSL which is part of a group of different technologies known as xDSL (ADSL, VDSL...). ADSL stands for Asymetric Digital Subscriber Line. Asymetric means that you get different speeds up and down. The standard speeds you get are:

* 256 / 128 Kbps
* 512 / 128 Kbps
* 2 Mbps / 300 Kbps

These speeds seem quite reasonable. However, your ISP is only enforced by law to provide 10% of the maximum bandwidth. Not surprisingly, this is precisely what most people get. That is, you only get:

* 25.6 / 12.8 Kbps
* 51.2 / 12.8 Kbps
* 200 / 30.0 Kbps

Check out prices here .

Note that speed depends on a number of parameters. One of them is the distance from your house / office to the nearest telephone switch (not sure about this term). The longer the distance the slower speed you get. One of the drawbacks of the ADSL technology is that your ADSL modem can't be very far from that point.

And then, once you're connected to that switch, Telefónica diverts the traffic to your ISP lines. The speed of your connection depends also on how many users and lines your ISP has.

As for the reliability of a ADSL line, well it depends. I guess it's a matter of luck. Some people are very pleased with it whereas some others have suffered cut offs in their connections for hours or even days (check out the ADSL do not work site).

Regarding the cable and as Jeremy said, Madritel doesn't have a good offer for unlimited connection so I wouldn't take it. Other parts of Spain have different cable operators but I haven't heard of any unlimited, reliable and cheap connection.

Hi,
Your DSL question was already answered (I have the telefonica service and I LOVE it--won't ever go back, and its not expensive at all when you consider that you ALWAYS pay local phone charges to connect otherwise. I'm actually saving lots of money, and I can play all day!! )

But we brought our one desktop computer to spain with us from the US when we moved here. But we brought it as excess baggage. It would have been much more expensive to ship it, because we didn't want to send it by ship (8 weeks, like a lot of our other stuff, and yes, it took exactly 8 weeks) Check with your airline about "cargo" too, which they told us would be cheaper for our excess baggage, but then actually wasn't, but I don't remember exactly why..weight, or something.

Oh, and our computer works perfectly fine here, it takes both kinds of power. Our monitor, on the other hand, SAID that it took both, but it blew within a few weeks. Luckily it was still under warantee, but they weren't happy about it and said don't use it here again. (But, it said RIGHT ON THE BACK that it was 110/220--so it was their error!!) So we've been making due with a tiny 14 inch monitor that we bought here while the other was being replaced, but now we're not bringing it back over here anyways, ....

As for entering with your computers, the customs officials eyes lighted right up when we walked in with our big computer boxes...Make sure you bring any receipts of sales that you have with you. We didn't, as it was just our household stuff and we didn't really know or think about it. They gave us a hassle but "let" us pay about $100 in customs fees. But you might want to register at the embassy before you go and have them certify your things are pre-owned by you (ie, you're not importing them to resell, etc) and will be leaving with you when you go. I assume you'll be legally entering Spain with a proper visa of some kind--they just won't believe you're a tourist for 3 months with high speed servers with you!!

You may have to buy new adapter cables for hte computers to plug them in. Bring the European-style adapter plugs with you--much easier to get something in the US where you can explain better what you need, and they're really hard to find here. We bought new speakers and printer because of the power issues.

HTH! Good luck, and keep in touch! I do web programming part time here (freelance, in Barcelona, but I'm moving to Madrid in August), and I'd love to get a few extra hours somewhere if you ever need any help!

As I recall, there's questions about chips that are in computers? Aren't there some that are illegal to take out of the US?

I wonder if that is an issue... or not:

Wolf

Antonio,

Thank you very much for the detailed ADSL information. This is great! Apreciate the time. I guess Telefonica is definitely the way to go for DSL.

kbc123,

I'm glad you like your DSL (makes me a bit more comfortable) and thanks for the shipping information. Yes, 8 weeks would be too long for me. I guess I'd pay for the extra plane baggage.

Wolfgang81,

You have a good point. One of my computers is a Gateway Laptop, and when I purchased it, they asked me if I wanted to take it out of the country and I said, "perhaps, to travel." They said, I then had to purchase from the International department, which I did.

However, there is no difference in the hardware or software. The only thing I received differently was a special document (receipt) that I might have to show a customs agent that states that it is an international computer. In addition, I get special shipping privileges for parts in the event that I'm in another country if it breaks down.

So, I'm not sure why they have a different department, other than the afore-mentioned, because I know that the hardware and software are NO different?

You might be right though, I don't really know. Where did you hear this, any web sites or other documentation I can research on this one that you know of?

Thanks! EDR

You can't take the chips to places like Libya or Syria. Spain is not on the US 'naughty list' so I wouldn't worry about it.

Be aware of cryptography software. It is considered to be like a "weapon" so there are restrictions as to what can be exported outside the US.

However, I read something about the RSA algorithm patent having expired a few months ago (RSA algorithms is used in the PGP software).

Antonio,

Thank you ... more great information. Can you provide examples of typical cryptography software so that I can evaluate if I might have something of that nature?

I don't think I do, but I do have a heck of alot of software, so you never know. Thanks again for all of your great information. EDR

I do have one more related question. A business partner of mine was concerned about the Internet DELAY from the U.S. to SPAIN.

We realize the signal most likely has to go up 42,000 miles into space to reach a satellite and than 42,000 miles back down.

Granted, while satellites are at the speed of light, we were wondering if there were any KNOWN substantial delays, like even up to 10 seconds or something like that?

Last night I sent Jeremy an email from Washington State to Madrid and I received his auto responder email all in less than 20 seconds. That's pretty darn fast and he hasn't even gotten his DSL yet (at least I think he stated that - it's on order).

However, with a server (or two) in SPAIN we are going to have actual users logging on to the physical machine from America, who rely on split second market information. So a delay any greater than 3 seconds might be detrimental to the reliability of our product.

Thanks again everyone for your time and information. Madrid Man you did a fine job creating this site! EDR

Allow me to clarify the last post.

If an American user has HIGH SPEED (DSL or FASTER) and I were to have the same in SPAIN, DSL or faster, if the American user was connected directly to my server via an IP Address what kind of delays are typical?

Anyone know? Thanks! EDR

EDR,

The problem can be in chips and in cryptographic usage in software. That's why there are seperate downloads of programs on the Internet for Europe, or anywhere else, than there is for the US.

Late last year, the computer technology people began petitioning the government to allow a broader band of applications to be allowed for export, and for people like us, to take with us overseas. The problem is, the goverment hasn't acted on it, and from what I have heard... will be tightening restrictions instead.

I guess the only way to insure that you don't violate the laws in regards to this issue is check out everything you can through government websites. I began checking myself and found that the laws that restrict us are found within the auspices of the GAO. http://www.gao.gov/ From there, it spreads into everything including NSA, and just about every other agency.

It's worth while checking... Just to be sure. Especially if you have valuable computers.

Another issue that I have heard. If you convert the 220vac systems in Spain to 110vac, you don't end up with what we really have here in the US. I was told that the life expectancy of components goes downhill in a hurry. That within a somewhat short period of time, you can expect your system to burn out. How true that is I don't know. I guess that's a question someone who has brought a computer from the US and used for an extensive period of time would have to answer. It might only be a problem if it's on for extended periods of time, or gawd knows what. Anyway... that's what I heard. Sorry it isn't better news.

Wolf

Hi, just some bit on the power thing, electricity in the States is 110V and 60Hz of frequency, in Europe you would find 220v and 50Hz. That will make american appliances working on AC work out of their frequency design specifications. Specially engines working on AC will suffer much more than expected .

That is why they brake down before than designed. This doesn't affect to the appliances working in continuous electricity.

I think that the cryto export regulations affect mainly countries such as Iraq Lybia....But remember that the definition of encryption is relatively wide. For example , the 128bit encription systems of browser are considered advance crypto, thus under the scope of the limitation....Nevertheless I think that within the EU you are in the safe side.

Just one question, why shipping the computer when you can buy them here?

Satellite?. No, I don't think your internet connection will travel by satellite. Your information will probably go through a super high capacity submarine cable (they recently installed a new one between Europe and America able to transmit data at 2.4 Terabits / second).

Obviously, you'll notice the delay even if both sides use ADSL connections. This would only ensure high speed connections between both computers and the respective routers to which they connect. From that point, your data will be routed through different systems around the world and they may have congestion.

I send some packets of information from my computer (in Madrid) to my Chelo server (in Pittsburgh) and a round trip took about 0.3 seconds (in both ways).

It depends a lot on the time of the day, the server you are connecting to, the ISP you're using... so, it's quite difficult to reply to your question.

If you partner wants to log in your server just to download files or something similar you shouldn't have any problems. However, if he wants to do some "real-time" operations such as editing files on the remote server he may notice a big delay.

By the way, having an fixed IP address doesn't mean someone can connect directly from one computer to another. In fact, the little test I did showed my packets passed through 15 different routers before reaching my computers.

As for the cryptography, Nativo gave you a good example of widely used software that use it. Internet browsers use encryption to cypher your date when connection to secure servers (mainly to transfer sensitive data such as credit cards details).

Although there are probably more restrictions to certain countries, I think some cryptography programs can't be exported anywhere if they use long keys. By the way, regulations about this subject are not the same within the EU. In France, for instance, they didn't even allow people to use PGP (a well-known application for encrypting e-mails). I don't know if they have change that regulations there.

Anyway, ask someone there in the US to see what are the restrictions on this matter.

Regards,

Antonio

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Hey you folks are great! Thank you for the invaluable information and for the time!

Nativo,

No reason to purchase additional computers (especially expensive ones) in Spain, if I already own some that are already configured to my specs. Thus, the reason I'm considering shipping them. However, if I don't have a choice and/or if it wouldn't be wise then perhaps I won't.

I think it's the other way around though, US is 220V while Europe if 110V ???

Anyway, I've already checked and all of my machines are newer ones, and therefore, have 60hz and 50hz settings (red switch) on the back under the power cable. I think this would work fine, but from what I'm understanding, even appliances with this setting (when purchased in the US) typically burn out sooner when on the European Voltage, even if the machine was originally (supposedly) designed for both voltage systems?

Antonio,

While, I'm not sure about the satellite links or delivery between US and Spain, Internet is and can be broadcast via satellite. It's sent from one router through interface up to the sky and back down to other interface into local router on other end.

In terms of a direct IP, we connect to various machines all the time with static IP's via either PC Anywhere and/or Terminal server. We use SQL, IIS5.0, etc.

In regards to real-time, what we actually do is allow paying clients to log on to our servers through a proprietary custom interface that provides them with live automated signals, which they can rely on. The problem is, they need them quickly!

As long as the CLIENT side can receive the information from the server side (to America) in 3 seconds or less (typical) that would be great. My partner was concerned about CONSISTENT 10 second or greater delays (from Spain), which would not be good. Granted, there are always bottlenecks and days that are slower than others, but if the "typical" speed using dedicated high speed lines from Spain to America is relatively quick, then we might be ok.

Thanks again for all of your great information. You guys rock! EDR