Should MadridMan go to Spain?

The possibility of MM going to work in Spain has come up in a number of threads, so I thought I'd start one dedicated to it. Should he just go for it? Why? What about his salary? Family? Friends? What happens if he gets disappointed/disillusioned? How many other people have done it? What was the hardest thing about it? etc etc.

Here's my 2 cents worth,
No estamos locos,
que sabemos lo que queremos.
Vive la vida
igual que si fuera un suegno
Pero que nunca termina,
se pierde con el tiempo.
Y buscare, si buscare.

(Gracias a Ketama por la letra!)

Hi El Boqueron! Hahhaa.. I'm honored that you would start a thread on this topic. Thanks! (I think. )

Hey, I LOVE that Ketama song! It's one of my favorites from the Konfusion compilation CD! I recognized it immediately.

BUT NOW THAT YOU'VE BROUGHT IT UP.... As I said, the job that's on the table now is for a webdesigner, it's on the Costa del Sol (BUT NOT in the city of Málaga, but in the Málaga province) in a town where public transportation would necessitate buying a car (probably) and this could possibly be about 1/3 to 1/2 of one year's salary! OUCH!

I would have to rent a smallish apartment and most likely furnish it with new/used stuff as well as applicances (probably). This might well take another 1/3 of a year's salary.

The flight alone would likely cost about one month's salary. So what's left after all these move-over-there expenses??

And if it doesn't work out (maybe they think I'm just plain stupid about these things compared to what they expect!) I'll have to return to the US after having given up my VERY secure and fair-paying job that I have now.

I'm not too concerned about leaving friends behind, but leaving the parents/family would be a bit more difficult.

During my October trip to Madrid I hope to make/create/find/beg more "connections" that will help me find something there, IN MADRID.

Hear Ye! Hear Ye! ALL THOSE IN MADRID WHO HAVE WEB-RELATED COMPANIES!! HIRE MADRIDMAN! YOU WON'T BE SORRY!!!

If I could find work in Madrid at least I wouldn't need a car as the public transportation there is great!! I also wouldn't have to pay for accommodations as I could stay with friends for as long as I want (can you say, "Kato Kailen"?? AAAHH! The guest that would never leave!!).

Feel free to throw in your two cents. Plus, this kind of brainstorming could help us all realize the difficulties in moving to a foreign country with hopes & dreams to work/live there.

Saludos, MadridMan

Madridman,

Have you heard of Ya.com Internet Factory in Madrid? Maybe this could be of interest.

Well, I've lived in Andalucia for 5 years and making the decision to move here from the UK was one of my best ever!

However, it's not the lifestyle for everyone, by any means. I cannot emphasise that enough - some people don't like it at all. After all, you simply exchange one set of hassles for another!! Don't be beguiled by the weather / food / people ... whatever.

The important element is lifestyle. Would you be happy living somewhere where English is not the first language, where the mañana attitude is still prevalent, where you have to check your bank statement with a fine tooth comb ´cos they make so many errors ... etc.

Things didn't work out as I anticipated when I moved here, but so what? I could have stayed in the UK, earned lots more, had a big company car, swelling pension fund - and been as miserable as sin. Instead I live in a wonderful part of the world which continues to amaze and delight, and, while I'm not as well-off in material terms, I'm happier.

And isn't that what it's all about?

I say go for it MadridMan! Get a one room studio apartment, or a hut on the beach and a bike or moped. Keep money in an account so that you can fly home in an emergency (for the parents).

You won't be disillusioned. It will be the best time in your life.

PS: I know what it means to earn a low salary here in the US!

Latest News: None. I admire those who "Just Do It!" and never look back. However, when considering immigration, visas, and other details I don't message around.

Here are some VERY important questions that MUST be answered before I would consider the job on the Costa del Sol in Spain:

1) Work Visa
2) Salary
3) Contract/Agreement
***************

1) Work Visa: Nothing much has been said about the work visa. Employing mostly people from the European Union these people have a legal right to work almost anywhere in the EU - I, being from the USA, do not have this right. A work visa MUST be in place before arriving at the job. The old, "Just come over and we'll try to get your work visa" just isn't feasible. Imagine my giving up my secure, ok-paying job and 4 years of history with my current employer and then, after a few months the new employer in Spain tells me they can't get one, but that I can/should work illegally (i.e. work for the company, but without a work visa) for awhile until they can get the visa papers together. If caught working without the proper papers I can be deported and banned from Spain for 10 years. NOT something I want to happen to MadridMan!

2) Salary: I've been told the job pays a little more than 200,000 pesetas per month. I've heard from others that this amount is "bajo normal" or the normal low salary. Okay. I'm fine with this. BUT, the big question is is this amount BEFORE taxes and social security deductions or AFTER?? My understanding is that if this is the total AFTER all dedcutions then the pay is okay. However, if this total is BEFORE deductions then it would be VERY difficult to live with the remaining amount.

3) Contract/Agreement: Is there some possibility that after arriving in Spain that I'll only be kept for one month and then released? And what guarantee do I have, if any, that I'll be paid the amount quoted?

Comments? I think I'm missing an important #4, but will add it to my message later today.

Saludos, MadridMan

One of the reasons Spain's unemployment rate is so high is that it is 'overstated:' Many people are working 'off the books.' Some of this is to avoid the high taxes.

Most likely, if you are offered ESP 200.000 monthly by a regular employer, that will be 'before taxes.'

Have you looked into the possibility of enrolling in a graduate program at a Spanish University and working with a student visa? There are probably limits on how many hours you can work (like here in the US for foreign students) but that might be your 'foot in the door.'

Normally, you are not allowed to work while waiting for a 'work visa.' You are supposed to return to your own country to 'wait it out,' the only exception being scientific or professional specialties, a list of which you should be able to get from the Spanish Embassy.

A list can be had at the Spanish embassy, eh? Hmmm.. I wonder if it's updated enough to include internet professionals. Somehow, I doubt it, but will look into it.

As for the student visa idea I think I looked into this a couple years ago and found that one cannot work at all (at least legally).

I think you're probably right about the 200,000 pesetas is the salary BEFORE deductions/taxes. If this is the case, I'll pass up the offer. While I can live like a college student again, but not like a homeless person.

Saludos, MadridMan

Of course there is a possibility that you will be released after one month. In fact, I'm afraid this is likely to happen.

Currently, lots of companies hired their workers through "contratos por obras" that means they hire you just for the duration of the project. Then, they may hire you again if you are good but with a new contract so you won't get more rights.

As for not being paid the amount quoted, I don't know how can you be sure. I guess you just have to trust them!.

As for Eddie's post, I disagree with part of his comments:

Although it is true that the the unemployment rate is overstated is not worker's fault. It is employers' fault.

Nowadays it is really difficult to get a non-temporary job. Having an undefined time job means that employers should have to pay you compesation in case they fire you.

Also, you get extra money for each 5 years period you have been working in a company.

Both things mean it is better for employers to hire you for short periods of time (they use what we call "contratos basura" (rubbish contracts)).

I know for sure that unemployed people would be happy to pay taxes if they could get a job. It is employers that don't want to pay taxes and use all kind of tricks to avoid them.

Another situation that make some people work 'off the books' is when you are really old and no one wants to hire you. In that case, you would take any job, even without a contract.

To sum up, the employment issue in Spain is not so easy. As taxi drivers, you won't believe how many tricks employers use so as not to pay taxes.

Saludos,

Antonio

Hey, Antonio; it's not just in Spain: Many U.S. employers fill their ranks with 'temps:'
1. so they can avoid having to pay people during their 'off' seasons, and
2. to get out of paying the employer share of employment taxes (social security, unemployment insurance, etc.) and employee health and vacation benefits.

That's the disgrace of the current work situation everywhere. Even in Japan, job security is a thing of the past. It's a shame, but that's the way it is.

As for me: I fit your description 'really old,' and no one wants to hire me so I just don't 'sweat' these things any more.

[This message has been edited by Eddie (edited 06-20-2000).]

If you're working in software/web design, how important is it to be physically present at the workplace these days? What I'm getting at is, would it not be possible to do work for US companies while being physically out of the country? Or is there some law against that?

Saludos!

Good point, El Boqueron! You're the 2nd person to mention this to me. I'll have to look into it. And while their 200.000 pesetas wouldn't be enough to live here in the US (I made this amount when I was in college working retail!) maybe they could halve the salary and the duties, bypass the need for a work visa/permit, and not (possibly) have to pay other taxes/fees for having an on-site employee. We'll see how this goes. Still, I won't be living on the Costa del Sol.. UGH!

I sent an email to the owner/boss of the company, but he's out of town in Sevilla for a few days. I'll let you know what he says as soon as I know.

Saludos, MadridMan

I love your forum!! I'm ready the message board as my husband and I and our 7 month old, have an extended vacation in Connecticut - awaiting the approval of his work and residence permits. Every worldly possession is sold and the house is empty and on the market... we had intended to be in Madrid June 1st - but have now become personally acquainted with the way things work... We're independent contractors/self employed with a company expanding into Europe, with Madrid being our entry. We're pumped! Life's just far too short. Go for it! Bright and independent people are marketable everywhere (that's your security). I'd hire you - but they've restricted us to 15 work permits and then we have to hire natives, or others there legally already.

HIRE ME!! HIRE ME!!!! PLEASE!!!!!
If you have 15 work permits allowed couldn't you spare ONE of those for MadridMan?? I'd MUCH rather live/work in Madrid than the beautiful Costa del Sol. You see, if I live in Madrid I'll be have free logding with friends and this is not possible with the other job possibility.

I just heard that monthly rent on the Costa del Sol could be about 40,000 pesetas per month for a small apartment, but that during July and August the rent could skyrocket to around 200,000 pesetas - MY ENTIRE MONTH'S SALARY!! I'm shocked to see that a landlord 'could' raise the rates on me with a lease agreement, but maybe *IN* the agreement itself it states that a higher rate will be expected during those 2 summer months. Incredible.

SO, HIRE ME!! HIRE ME!!! What's 1-in-15 work permits?

Saludos, MadridMan

[This message has been edited by MadridMan (edited 06-25-2000).]

You are not wrong about rents down here, MM. In fact, it's very difficult to find anyone willing to give you a 12 month rental contract on an apartment, because they know how much they can make in July & August.

Here's the final word on the current offer with the Dot.com company in Andalucia, Spain. They have removed their offer upon learning that I have no (web) graphics design experience. They said there MAY be an opportunity in the future during their next expansion for an assistant web designer (but, of course at a lower salary = below poverty level) or editor.

They also told me that they hope to open an office in Madrid and that this would be perfect for me so at least they're STILL considering me.

In the meantime, I hope/expect to take some courses on web design (including graphics design) at the local college to improve my future possibilities (AND my website!).

The reason why I have no graphics designing experience is because all my website graphics are simple and readily available on the web. Those which are customized are done by my online "associates". Also, have you priced ANY web graphics design software lately? SHEESH! They're like $300-$700 and this is WAY over MadridMan's budget.

So, I'll keep you all posted on this thread if anything turns out/up for me in Madrid and with future possibilities. Thanks for caring and sharing!

Saludos, MadridMan
---------------------
For books on Spain, visit MadridMan's ALL Spain Market @ http://www.MadridMan.com/allspainmarket.html

MM - We're still here! Sorry the work permits are already filled and processed. But, we will be hiring people in country. Perhaps, we can help you with options later, when you've made the move... and you will if that's where your heart is. We're hoping the consulate is notified tommorrow or Tuesday and hopefully we'll be on a plane by the end of the week.

MadridMan, if you are happy with your job here in the US, and you are able to travel to Spain, you really do have the best of both worlds.

In the meantime, it is always interesting considering the possiblities.

Your forum is excellent.

I look forward to your October trip. It gives our school something to talk about. The kids followed your daily postings when you were last in Spain, and they rattled off the details of your adventure with pride and
admiration.

Hi again, Akordish!
You wrote "Perhaps, we can help you with options later, when you've made the move... and you will if that's where your heart is."

The problem with this is that one cannot "make the move" UNLESS they have a work visa supplied for them (assuming they're coming from OUTSIDE of the EU that is) before arriving.

The people for whom you have already prepared/processed work permits are the lucky ones. They didn't have to "make the move" before you offered them a job.

This is the problem. One cannot get hired UNLESS you have a work visa and if you have citzenship you can work wherever you want. I have neither.

Dreaming of life in Madrid,

MadridMan

MM, I love Spain and I miss it so much but I don't want to work there anymore. They hire you with "contratos basura": they ask you for degrees, experience, languajes... but they only offer very low salaries. I am making in USA three times as much I made in Spain, here I am only an Administrative assistant, in Spain I was a Public Relations, graphic designer, secretary, and I don't remember how many things more at the same time. I love my country but if I were you I would go there only for vacation.
Good luck.

Hi Nuria,

I was thinking of going to the USA to have a work experience or even get a job. I'm studying Computer Science Engenieering (4th course). Could you give me some advice and also tell me about your experience?.

Thanks,

Antonio

PS: Sorry MM. I know this is your topic but I wanted to ask Nuria about this since it is very important for me.

Hi Antonio,
I am sorry I didn't get back to you earlier but I went on vacation. I was lucky here because I already had my visa because I was married to an American man. My experience here is that if you want to work and you show them you will do a good job they will hire you. When I came here my English was horrible (it didn't change that much and I wanted an administrative job, but anyway they understood that I was going to try hard to be good at my job. I have been working for 6 month and they are happy with me. I think you shouldn't have any problem finding a job here because right now they have a lot of jobs for computer guys. One of my coworkers who is from France got his job and they gave him a "training visa". They did all the paperwork and they brough him from France, not bad, right? My company has a lot of workers from Asia and Europe and they LOVE to have foreigner people, we even have our own club in the company. I know there are some companies that would bring you here with a training visa and even a work visa. I recommend you to go to www.monster.com where you can find openings and information about working in USA. Let me know if you need more information.
By the way, my experience working in USA is just wonderful.

Hi Madridman,

Think twice about moving from the US to Costa del Sol, it is not what you dream it to be.

You are up for a cultural chock.

Hi Mr. International! Read my 6-30-2000 posting (above) with "the final word" about that job. In shot, they would not take me because I didn't have web graphics design experience. Oh well. Better luck next time!

Saludos, MadridMan

Hi Madridman,

Have you tried writing temporal job-agencies in Madrid ?

In Madrid (Spain) allmost all jobs offered, are through these kinds of agencies. If you know HTML, javascript, how to put up a webserver, etc. you should have a good chance, but the salary wont be any higher than 1000 US a month.

I have tried it myself.

Bad news on the web design front. While it is a growing field here in Madrid, the employers ask you to know loads of stuff (Java, JavaScript, Flash, Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Perl, etc) and to know them well. So, not many can make the cut. Take me for example, an American with a legal working situation because I was born in Scotland (only spent 1 month there as a baby though). It is funny, I used to go looking for jobs at web companies and was told that either I did not know enough or I could not work fast enough for them. So, I decided to look for my own clients and start my own projects and now I have more work than I can currently handle. I consider myself a better than average graphic/web designer and in the end I am glad I did not get picked up by a design company and decided to go it on my own.

MadridMan, 200.000 + ptas./month is above average. I don't know who told ya otherwise but although the "official stats" say that the average salary is 260.000 ptas./month in Madrid, the reality of it is not so. Besides, with 200.000 (even before taxes) you can live pretty well here in Madrid.

End note: Chase your dream, I did and it was the best thing I ever did! I left a $40,000/year teaching gig in NY to come live here at the age of 25 and I don't regret it in the least.

Saludos,
jer...

I agree with MadridMan's concerns. I wonder just how well a person can live on 200,000 ptas a month. It doesn't seem logical, since it takes a large part of that just to keep a roof over your head, and the utilities paid. Even if the prices are lower in Spain, you still have to eat.

The only way I can see where that little money could possibly work is if a person lived in a shared flat, and cut their costs there by 75%. Then there'd be enough to live on, but any frills would be a dream at best.

Travel would be critically limited, and as far as getting back home to the U.S., to visit family, or for an emergency, a person would have to ask for help.

I would also be concerned about health insurance. Even though that doesn't seem to be a big concern by most young people, almost anything can happen, and if it does... what do you do?

If the cost of living is really that low in Spain, why do they require people from the U.S., who want to live there, and buy property, without working, prove that they have an income in excess of $70,000 a year? And prove that it will be ongoing for their entire stay? Or... is this figure wrong?

If my calculations are correct, that's nearly six times as much money guaranteed each year than the 200,000 ptas monthly is.

MadridMan, you'll get there someday. But do it on your own terms. This site may well end up as the vehicle you need to reach your goals. Someday it will be considered the ultimate source of information for all things Madrid, and then you can reap the rewards of your hard work, and diligence towards making this place as great as it is, and will become.

Wolf

Hey Wolfgang:

Concerns are good inded, theuy keep us from making stupid and rash decisions.

Living here for 5 years now I think I have more insight on how far the money goes than someone who just visits from time to time.

I live with my girlfriend and she earns 150.000 ptas./month after taxes and my monthly income varies since I work for myself. For example, this month I cleared 200.000 ptas. while in August I will make 500.000 (htis is an exceptional month for me). I charge my clients half up front for their web designs so I can speculate on my income for August. I would say between my girlfriend and I we clear about 300.000 to 400.000 ptas./month and TRUST me, it is more than enough to live well on.

Ok, so I will never have 3 cars, a speedboad, 2 jetskis, etc but I don't want them either. If I wanted that type of "live to work but never really live life" lifestyle I would have stayed in the good old U.S. of A.

Admitedly, it is hard to buy an apartment here in Madrid these days for the prices have gone through the roof but I have an AMAZING apartment looking over the Plaza Mayor and I think I travel quite a bit and have all the "luxeries" I need.

My throw caution to the wind and go for your dream comment was meant to encourage MM to make the move.

If you are a resident here, health coverage is taken care of by the state. So, if MadridMan were hired by a company (either an American on that sponsored his Visa or a Spanish one, he would eventually get his residency and be a full fledged adopted Spaniard with health insurance and the whole 9 yards.

The law that provides for the income level to be that high is not because it is expensive to live here but rather they want to be sure that you are going to be comfortale here without depending on anyone else. I think that law sprung from the immigration laws to keep many immigrants without means from just moving over.

En fin, in my case, it was the idea of moving here while I was still young (and not only at heart :D) that made me chase my dream and move to Madrid. Sure, I could have tought in NY for 30 years until I was 55 and then come over with my U.S. pension but that was not for me. Life is too short and we do not know if we will even make it to 55.

"Doing it on your own terms" is a great piece of advice but it is very hard. I did just that but had to teach English and do translations (both of which I hate) here in Madrid to survive befor things started going well for me and my web/internet stuff.

I admit that I was lucky and my EC citizenship mad life a lot easier but I was also not willing to take failure as an outcome.

Go, go, go MM!

Saludos,
jer...

i am sorry but i don´t agree that 200,000 pts a month is not enough to survive, what kind of life do you want to lead??? madrid has excellent public transportation you don´t need car and what kind of house do you wnat to live in. my goodness 200,000 pts a month is alooooooooooot of money. i am just floored to hear that that amount of money is not sufficient to live off of. it all depends on people standards though and how people like to live. as long as i make enough to pay rent, utilities, food and my abono for the month, 100,000 pts a month is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jer, mm98,

I agree, for the both of you, it was probably a good choice. But that doesn't make it all that easy for the rest of us. Issues related to family, children, grandchildren, and a lifetime of work enter the picture. Issues that we can't set aside.

But, when you indicate that the Spanish government said that the $70,000 a year minimum was essential, don't you think that's what they meant for anyone migrating there? Didn't you indicate that's what they said was essential to maintain a comfortable lifestyle?

I also bring up the fact that studies done by Spanish sources indicate that more young people are living at home for a longer period of time, because it takes them that long to realize incomes that will allow them to live comfortably on their own.

To do something on one's own terms simply means that they should be comfortable with the decision, and not feel that they are making a mistake. They should be prepared for the outcome, just like the thousands and thousands of Americans from the north who move to Florida after they retire, then find out they can't stand the hot summers, and end up selling what they have there, and going back north again, to a place they felt more comfortable in than they thought.

I guess that's why my wife and I want to be snow birds, and throw Spain in for spring and/or fall visits. We can get winters in Florida, beautiful Spain in the cooler seasons, and enjoy the northern U.S. when it's lush and green. For us, that is doing what we want, on our own terms.

It's nice to see your passion for having made the moves. It tells me you are glad you made the choices you did.

Wolf

Hey Wolf.

I agree with most of what you say above.

I geuss if I had been older and more settled in in the U.S., perhaps I would have had to think more about taking the leap across the atlantic but in my case I had no wife, children, grandchildren, etc...

Miss mom and dad at times but my bro is an ex-pat as well and lives in England (must be in the blood ) See my folks twice a year so it is ok with me. I fugure that if I lived in the U.S.A. I would live iin either Colorado or on the west coast somewhere and that is just as far away from my parents in NY as Spain is.

One last note, I think you missed my explanantion of the EXCESSIVE figure of $70,000 per year. It is not what is considered a comfortable income but is rather a measure against immigration that is "masked" as something else. It is really an anti immigration law but without calling it so blatently for thelaw prohibits anyone who is lot rich from making the jump. It is somewhat like the grandfather clause in U.S. history which put up barriers to African Americans. It is a law that is also unjust in my opinion and the ammount should be more like $15,000 per year which better reflects the reality of the cost of living here (TRUST ME!).

Also, many foreigners have a misguided concept of what it costs to live well here in Spain and I insist that unless you have tried it, you can not really make judgements on the topic. I see the day to day life and what it costs, what are luxuries and what are not, what I need and what is superfluous, etc and that is insight that only a resident has. I also lived in the U.S.A. for 25 years and I can tell you all that Spain is dirt cheap compared to most of the U.S.

As for the Spanish youth living at home for longer, it is very true but is changing. About 7 years ago when I came here to study for the first time, I saw that in almos every young person. The stay at home until you marry mentality was rampant. You also need to underrstand that aside from being an economical situation, it is also cultural. Spaniards on the whole are much more community and family conscious and are closer to their loved ones than most Americans (my opinion as someone who has experinced both worlds). Pluse, the U.S. culture and society pushes the idea of the kids dying to leave home and not wanting to be stuck with the folks forever. Just look at any American movie or TV show, you see the kid's bedroom door with a sign on it that says, "Keep Out" or "No Parents Allowed" and the youth is always counting the days until they are off to college. Even the parents joke (or not) about getting rid of the kids, something not seen in the Spanish society and culture. I really feel that this is more a cultural thing than economic. Nowdays, 7 years after my first trip to Spain, I see that many more young people are moving out of the home earlier. They go live with the boy/girlfriend or friends in a shared apt. as they do in the U.S. (this may be an influence of the U.S. culture as well since it is very strong over here, especially in the media, movies).

Saludos,
jer...

jer,

What you said in the last post makes sense. I do realize that it is cheaper to live in Spain than the U.S., and if it wasn't for family ties, I'd be there in a heart beat. But, even if I wanted to, my wife still has some reservations about it. Most of them being related to not having the conveniences of home here in the U.S. We'd end up spending a few months apart, because she'd probably opt to do 3-4 months in Spain, and I'd end up wanting to do 6-7 months there each year. Of course, that's not much different than what we do now, since I spend summers in northern Wisconsin, and she's in Illinois except for special weekends. Of course I go home for several days each month to pay the bills, etc...

My guess is, as EC grows in strength, the cost of living is going to go up rapidly, even though I wonder if the wages will match it. That's something that would be a bit scary as an expatriate. Especially if you can't land a better job after you become legal, and prove your worth, and speak the language well. Adding to this, the fact that tourists (like myself) have a tendency to spend too much money while we're there. It creates a false economy because we are willing to spend more for what we get, and that hurts the people who are trying to make a living in the Spanish economy.

Since my livelihood doesn't depend on making a living by what I do when I'm in Spain, I am constantly aware of the fact of how lucky I actually am. I can enjoy the country, the wonderful people, and not worry about the balance in my check book, or any limitations on my credit cards. Yet... I have written off the expenses of the last few trips I've made with my wife... claiming the cost as expenses on my taxes...

Will I ever live in Spain as an expatriate? Probably not.

Will MadridMan live in Spain as an expatriate? Probably not! He'll end up there as a rich internet guru who owns palaces here in the States, and in Spain. He'll end up not worrying about transportation, because his chauffeur and limo will be ready 24 hours a day. He'll end up flying back and forth between the States in his private 747. You know the one. It has a pool, satellite TV system, and the works. An Internet equal to the boys who started Yahoo!

Wolf (Envying MadridMan's future ability to travel at whim, in style.)

Well, you can definitely live in Madrid (which is one of the most expensive places in Spain) with 200.000 ptas., but you can not live like a tourist travelling each weekend, going out Fridays,Saturdays and Sundays, and not caring about prices.

This includes sharing a flat (supposing you are alone), paying 90.000 to 110.000 ptas., which is the average price for an apartment, or 75.000 to 85.000 for a small. This may take too much of your salary, specially if you eat out everyday as many of us do (because it is not much more expensive than eating at home).

However, if you have or meet a couple, the amount you earn is double ( in the case of "jer" is 300.000 to 400.000),. If you deduct the same price for the flat, you will see that what rests is, lets say 220.000 to 320.000 in the case of a one/two person's apartment, is two to threee times as much as the 120.000 that you would have for other expenses the other way - a better deal.

The monthly (not the consumption) expenses on commodities would be shared too, ...

With 200.000 a month each, two persons can live on very well, although to live like a tourist you may need 250.000 to 300.000 a month each.

For a single, the 200.000 budget may be a little tight unless you share a flat.

An easy way to calculate is considering that, except for some things (cars - more expensive, petrol - much cheaper, ...) the prices are, in my opinion 2 to 3 times higher in the USA than in Spain, so we would be speaking of (200.000 ptas. = 1.000$) a similar situation to earning 2.000 to 3.000$ a month may be more. Also remember that here ( in the USA I don't know, the usual thing is to have 14 salaries in a year - two extra ones, I get 15)

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Wolf, good points on the "not having to worry about the money while here". I guess I have a care free attitude since I live here day to day and don't really worry about money but most are not like that. On the other hand, when I we back to NY to see mom, my girlfriend worries about how far her Spanish salary will get her while on vacation there. We can afford nice trips though. We spent the month of December this past year in NY and Washington DC and while Ena (my novia) loved the trip, she recognized the hurry, hurry, culture lacking society that is the U.S.A. Smart gal!

As for MM and his future in Spain. I guess your right Wolf, the best thing to do is hit the lottery and live like that (which is what he, or anyone else would have to do to live like that) but I'm sure he appreciates the thought.

Hey Ignacio, good input on the living costs topic. It is good to be backed up by someone who lives here as well.

You are soooo right abotu the sharing thing, my girlfriend and I are very happy here and wow!, I get to wake up in Madrid every day. Somebody pinch me!

We take one or 2 international trips per year and get away at least one weekend a month with the car to someplace outside of Madrid but can not afford to do it every weekend as you say. However, I am willing to give up that weekly escape and make the concession in exchange for being able to live in my dream city all year round. Then again, why would we want to escape Madrid anyway !

I must admit that we go out less than we used to now that we live together (my gal and I). Truth is we go out as much as we like but since we moved here to the Plaza Mayor for some reason I just looooove staying at home (people watching and just enjoying the Plaza from above),

Oh yeah, Ignacio, it depends on the job but in the U.S. I used to get paid every 2 weeks (I think this is the norm). I was a school teacher so I would aslo get a big fat check just before summer vacations. The Americans are way too "consumer" to actually have to wait till the end of the month to get their pay, 90% of them would die first! Take it from me, I am (or used to be) one. I think the idea of Spanirds having to make it to "fin de mes" ("the end of the month") on their pay is good since it makes them less money hungry consumers, spend, spend, spend!

The final question is, when are Americans and other non EC nationals going to be able to live here legally without living a nightmare to do it? I hope it is soon. It is a shame, I have friends who come every summer for 6 weeks and it is painful to see the looks on their faces when they have ot leave.

Saludos,
jer...

p.d. I think MadridMan needs to put his 2 cewnts worth in here and give us an update.

It's quite simple, if you make a lot of money in the US, and you cannot give up that lifestyle, or are someone whom is concerned with money all the time, then don't take a job in Spain that pays less.

I gave up an $80.000 job in NYC to take one here, and it pays much less. But I don't care about money (well, as long as I have a roof and food :D), I just didn't want to live in the US.

If you want to come to Spain, you might have to make sacrifices. Not all people are able to do this, and many can't make it more than a few months. It's a serious decision.

MM- I haven't seen anyone post this idea, but have you thought of changing jobs in the US? I work for a very large Insurance Co and we are always looking for people to work abroad. Especially people that can speak the language.I know that Columbus has many International companies. I'm not saying that the job would be your dream job, but isn't the point to get someone to pay an American salary and live where you want to be? Once you get there legally, then you can make your escape plan to stay forever. Most companies send employees over and even pay their living and travel expenses, in the meantime, you can bank your money.

Time for my ten pesetas worth now! I don't know what you did this weekend, Mr International, but I finished work on Friday afternoon on the Costa del Sol and went to chill out and have a few beers at the end of the working week as usual with my friends from England, Norway, France, Czech Republic and of course Spain.

We had some tapas and enjoyed a pleasant evening in a nice temperature. Next day my wife and I chucked our tent into the back of the car and drove to Tarifa on the Atlantic coast and had some peace and quiet, followed by a great night out in the town. Next day we sat on one of the best beaches you could wish for, had a paella for lunch and relaxed and swam on the afternoon. Back home, feeling relaxed and tanned and healthy.

Back to work today, but we're on summer hours now so we start at nine and finish (normally) at two o'clock. On Saturday we are thinking of going to see Paco de Lucia play his guitar in a gorgeous setting amongst the palm trees at the Puente Romano Hotel in Marbella. In a couple of weeks we will be at one of the most exciting and best fiestas in Spain at the Malaga Feria. We have already booked weekends away over the next year for places like Sevilla, Cordoba and Bracelona (long weekend that one!).

We do this on money that is less than what we were both earning when we left England fifteen years ago. But hey, we think we like it here and may even stay!

I'm saying all this, not to show off about our life style, but because it's possible to live, work and share the culture down here with all nationalities, many tourists and certainly not brilliant salaries. But I wouldn't swap it for anything. davej will tell you pretty much the same. It's not all a bed of roses, but I would rather have the problems here than elsewhere.

The problem at the moment for people like MM who may be thinking of trying to get by on a couple of hundred thousand pesetas a month - which is not a particularly low salary here -is indeed the housing problem. Rents, as well as purchase prices, have gone through the roof over the past 12 months or so, due to factors like the strength of the pound and deutschmark against the peseta, plus people with "black" money investing into property to launder it etc. It's ok for people like myself, who took a mortgage several years ago, but for anyone trying to get started in property or pay a rent at the moment it is a tough time.

But it's what you make of it and I defend the coast to the hilt, despite it being a "culture shock".

Anchovy, you're killing me. I can't even compare weekends.

Anchovy,

As soon as the kids are grown and away from home, can I have their bedroom?

I'm just about housebroken, and can carry out the garbage (my wife trained me over a 36 year period of time.).

I agree on the rising prices. It's just beginning. As soon as the Euro becomes the coin of the realm, things will probably get tougher. Of course I'm guessing, but from what I've seen throughout history, what you said is right on the mark.

Getting back to my attributes ( ), I promise I won't eat more than two or three people would, and won't insist on someone making paella for me more than two or three times a week.

I'd be glad to baby sit your car, and will gladly drive it around to the beaches for you so it can be seen, and spend time on them while you're making a living for us.

Of course I would expect an allowance...

Nothing big. Just enough to keep me in beer, and a few other essentials. Oh! One other question. Which one of you makes my bed and does my laundry...

Wolf (Looking to be adopted by a nice English couple living in a cool place, and wanting children older than they are.. )

MadridMan, are you American "laines pures," or do you have any comparatively recent immigrant ancestors? If any of them are immigrants from EU countries, you might be able to claim citizenship or at least right of abode in the that country, and this may entitle you to live and work in Spain. If one of your parents was born in the UK, for instance, you're entitled to UK citizenship; if it's a grandparent, you have right of abode in the UK (includes right to work I presume), and you could obtain citizenship later. I presume other countries have similar provisions. If you've got even one grandparent from an EU country, you might want to look in to that country' policy on claiming citizenship or right of abode.

Hi Nic, your idea about working for an "American" company (would this "American" Company be in Chile, Peru, Mexico, USA, Cuba, or Canada? They're all part of America, aren't they?? ) and getting a transfer to Madrid where they might hold an international office is a common one.

Unfortunately, I've looked into this at some depth and it seems certain that only those people in those companies which have "tenure" or in some upper management positions would be considered for such a temporary transfer and not the newbies who are at the bottom of the corporate ladder and just starting.

c_robinson, all "my people" have been on this continent for a couple hundred years I think so your plan wouldn't work for me. IF ONLY I could get a nice, pretty madrileña to marry me and take me into her home.... BUT, it seems certain that's NOT going to happen at all.

I'm OPEN to any and all other suggestions though. However, I think they've all been exhausted. Sad. Very sad.

Saludos, MadridMan

wow this went really into detail, i was just stating that 200,000 pts is plenty of money to live off of for a single person, and i was refering to madridman cause i thought he was a single man. wow there has been alot of debates and points, but it´s not as complicated as many people have been putting it. i feel so exausted reading all those posts and anybody considering moving out here must be incredibly discouraged. i feel so out of place cause i make very little money but am so very happy. i live the ultimate spanish life in a beautiful pueblo with the most beautiful views, enjoy all the pleasures spain has to offer, go out on the weekends, work my little jobs and live peacefully and happily. sure i don´t spend much money, but i never have, i´ve always been tight on money all my life so i´m okay with watching my pesetas, but other than that i´m fine. it´s really not that hard and complicated if you are a SINGLE, UNMARRIED, AND HAVE NO CHILDREN. I think anything at the beginning is going to be hard. I think starting a new life anywhere will be difficult, you just have to stick it out and make it happen. i have been here for 7 months and i am barely getting a float, but after i get afloat, i´ll be living in spain for as long as i want, but it has and will take time. i just don´t see it as impossible as many people see it, or as expensive, i don´t know where all this "expensive" stuff is coming from. i didn´t come here with hardly any money and i made it happen, i don´t know maybe people just have different living standards than i do. i am just happy enough to live here and be alive, i dont´have much furniture, i don´t hav a car, i don´t have many material things, but why do i need those, if i wnated those things i would have stayed home in l.a. where i had all those things. in time i will have the same here in time............

Hi MadridMan,

I'm an American who came out to Madrid a year or so ago to do some consulting and ended up staying after I met a wonderful Spanish woman who has become my wife. I work as a computer programmer here now and when my clients ask me if I know of anyone else I'll pass on your name and website. Usually they ask me for programmers, but we'll see what happens (I've already mentioned you to some people at Terra). Where's your online resume? Is it in Spanish?

I have a couple of opinions also:

1)As you've read above, definitely forget about the money side of things. I'm earning less than 1/5th of what I was in the U.S. However, the quality of life here is worth the loss in earnings, and the cost of living is pretty comensurate. I've got some new family who are able to make ends meet and go on vacation, etc. for about 3 million ptas a year ($15.5k). They don't have a car or have new DVD players or whatever, but they seem quite happy. And me? Well... I'm adjusting.

2) Forget about being "perfectly legal" in working here. I didn't have a visa for more than a year and worked here without problems (though I was paid from a U.S. company which indeed made it easier if not possible). I kept thinking that when I left Spain for vacation, someone was going nail me since I had been in the country like 200+ days without a visa but no one cared. Caveat: maybe others might have problems, but I didn't on several occasions.

The point is that I sort of fell into working and living here and so it seems easy to me, but even so I think if you really want to live/work here you can do it regardless of visas and salaries. There are so many times I'm just amazed by living here. I mean it's August now and it seems that everyone is going on vacation. It's great. The streets are quiet, people are tanned and relaxed. It's worth whatever sacrifices you need to make to live here.

August will be impossible for job hunting, but in September everyone will start hiring again. Have you tried infojobs.es? or the job site at EresMas.com? I must admit that finding jobs are tough, but it's possible with time and effort - even if you're an extrajero. I think your presence here would help a lot.

Thanks for having the MadridMan site, it was quite invaluable when I first got here. Obviously after a year or so here in Madrid I still use check it out from time to time...

-Russ

Isnt Rosa in Madrid? And Isnt she your media naranja still ?????
Then what R U waiting 4 ???????

Jano B

Jano B, my ladyfriend (100% madrileña) IS still in Madrid and yes, she is mi media naranja (my orange half), but, as most people here know, she doesn't believe in marriage and this is a big obstacle.

Could you please explain what "My Orange Half" means? I've never heard that expresion before.

It's spanish. Means that you and your friend aretwo halves that fit perfectly well together to form a whole ---> an orange.

It means she is the woman of your life.

Hi MadridMan,

I just read a story about you in Madridiario, "website Un yanki enamorado de Madrid". (Read the article in Spanish HERE )

I just got back from a 5 week vacation in Spain and had a incredible time. We travelled all over. My parents were born there and emigrated when they were young, so Spain has a special place in my heart.

About living there, I think depending on what type of person you are you could love it or hate it.

It has nothing to do with money. Can you accept the challenge and the change to move to a totally different country and are you willing to give yourself the time to adjust to your new place.

I really enjoy your web-site and use it a fair bit before going to spain and found it extremely helpful.

Loli

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

MM,

Ok, maybe I am being a little naive here, but when I read the story in Madridiario it was killing me when I found out that you have a girlfriend of so many years that is from Madrid. FOR GOD's SAKE MARRY THE WOMAN! And I read the above post about her not believing in marraige - Even easier! Since she doesn't believe in the institution of marriage, she will have no problem with you exploiting it to get yourself some spanish citizenship! Then you can live happily ever after in Madrid - with or without your new bride.

That is unless the immigration authorities read this web site!

LCQ

Madrid Man,

I think you should go for it. I am in the same boat as you right now. I am worried about the salary there too. I am taking a two-pronged approach: First, I am trying to get a job directly in Spain, either in Madrid, Barcelona or Zaragoza. Second, I am applying for financial positions (not a good time that right now) at big firms here in New York that have a presence in Madrid in the hopes that I may get transferred. While that would alleviate the "homeless" status, it could take working another year in Manhattan and then there still would only be a slight chance at being transferred. This whole affair is making me crazy. But I think I am just gonna jump. Good luck to you, and I hope that if you do go, you continue your web site.

Robert

Pax, I agree if MM did move to Spain he will certainly have to continue with this excellent site. What would we do without him?

MadridMan,
I say hang on in the US and go take more classes (like that graphic design course) and make yourself even more potent. Even in the US, you need Unix or Perl or even Cold Fusion these days to get a decent job. If you keep up with the newest advances, you will certainly increase your chances at a job in Spain where they will need your expertise.

When I became a webmaster 4 years ago, jobs in the US were plentiful, but now they all want me to be an expert in Flash and Perl... I say learn more if you can. It can only help, by making you more valuable. And, by the way, you WILL end up in Spain. I think all the MadridMan members know you will!

Hello Eric and Group! Eric, it's a wild coincidence that you should suggest this. I agree with you 100%. While there's a certain excitement/exhilaration in "Just Do It" and "Take Your Chances" I'd rather improve my possibilities BEFORE arriving. As things stand now, I have few skills which would be seen as useful or necessary in Spain.

SO, after spending 18 days with my madrileña ladyfriend here and doing A LOT of talking about our future together (we've been dating long-distance for 8 years), we've decided that I would take some computer-related courses AND/OR get a TEFL or ESL certificate to help me find legal work as an English teacher in Madrid if nothing else worked out immediately. Now, I just need to find out more about what's needed/wanted in Spain and then I'll begin RE-skilling my life.

And oh, for anyone who knows, my ladyfriend who has ALWAYS been anti-marriage has JUST RECENTLY accepted the fact that it's the best/only way to help us to be/live together IN MADRID!! We're/I'm on a 2-year plan to get skills AND THEN (if all goes well with us) she'll marry me. The "American" mentality most often sees this as extreme or unfeeling, but the fact is, Spain isn't the USA (Thanks GOD!!) and decent jobs are VERY hard to find there.

We both agreed that just getting married now AND THEN going to Madrid with no useful skills or possibility would be crazy. That would certainly put a lot of stress on the relationship if I was in an unhappy bartending job who knows how long we can stand it.

Finally, YES(!!), I'd definitely keep MadridMan.com rolling right along!! This is my life, afterall!!! (after my ladyfriend, that is ).

I appreciate the interest, comments, and ideas any all wish to offer on this topic. Have a nice weekend, everyone!!

Saludos, MadridMan

MadridMan,

Actually I find it quite sentimental.

The relationships that usually last best are tested by time apart.

When eight years of long distance calls, and IMs keeps the flame flickering, there's more to the relationship than something that happened on a cold winter's night, when both of you met, while stranded in the same bar because of the blizzard outside, and decided to get married by a Justice of The Peace, who just happened to be getting drunk in the same watering hole.

Like I said a lot earlier in this thread. On your terms!

Wolf (Who thinks puppy love is for the dogs!)

[ 08-18-2001: Message edited by: Wolfgang81 ]

Madridman,

CONGRATULATIONS

Wolf,

Strangers in the night, exchanging glances, ...

Ignacio,

Yes, and sung out of key of course.

Wolf (Who ain't gonna put no quarters in the juke box on a wintery night with the snow a fallin'.)

Sounds like a plan, MadridMan!

I'm sure you know this already, but one way to stay up with the computer trends and needs is by reading all the "ideal" job postings (and their requirements).

when i was in madrid, i met a lot of expatriates who moved to madrid on 2,000 bucks or less. they went there with no job, or any sort of security. anyhow, they all turned out successful: fluent in spanish and really good jobs (director of marketing for paramount comedy, co-founder of a company for mobile internet, and producer for tripictures). another thing is, when i went there, i met so many people that owned their own company and i thought... wow, all i have to do is ask and my life will change forever... but of course, i never did.

roses

(life is what happens when we are not paying attention... so pay attention and take the road less traveled and indulge in some unexpected occurrences along the way!)

I've been following this message board for a while now, hoping that MadridMan would be able to find some way of getting to Madrid, but this is this first actual post I've ever made. Since MadridMan seems to have a plan now, I thought I'd offer my two pesetas. I spent two years in Valladolid doing a Master's in Translation. I think MadridMan's idea of getting his TESL certificate and improving his computer skills is a good one. It occurred to me, though, that it might be worth his while to look into translation as a way of supplementing his income or even making a living once in Madrid. While general translation is not particularly well-paying, especially in Spain (7-12 ptas./word when I was there in 2000), specialized translation can pay fairly well. There are tons of specialized documents that need to be translated into English. Legal translation pays particularly well, though it's a bit difficult to get into, especially if you want to be a 'traductor jurado' (which not only means passing a VERY difficult test, but also would mean being able to translate and interpret well into English AND Spanish--you don't have to be a lawyer to do it, though). However, there are also tons of computer-related documents, web pages and software programs (though not so much of the latter) that companies need to have translated into English and which require a good level of computer skills (that is, not just anyone who speaks English can do it--I certainly can't). There are also companies that hire full-time in-house translators. This can be pretty demanding work, but the advantage is that you generally work with a team of translators rather than free-lance. The government and the EU also employ lots of translators and interpreters--anything that goes to the EU has to be translated into English. I'm sure this idea has already occurred to MadridMan, but just in case it hasn't I thought I'd pass it along. Just bear in mind that translation can sometimes be pretty stressful and that, in order to make it pay off, you really have to get into highly specialized areas (computers, business contracts, legal documents, etc.). Also, being able to speak English well doesn't always mean that one can translate into English well. It takes practice and getting familiar with the terminology of a specialized area. But I thought that since MadridMan was going to be boning up on his computer skills anyway, it might be something to look into. Anyway, just a thought.

Hope everything works out for you MadridMan! I'd be back in 'Pucela' in a heartbeat if I had the chance.

I'm not sure about what I'm going to say Pucelano, but I think to become a translator / interpreter for either the Spanish government or the EU you have to pass a really difficult test. Furthermore, I think I read somewhere EU requires translators with 2 languages besides the mother tongue.

Saludos MadridMan!

I think the ESL would be an excellent option for you Madrid Man. Having lived in Spain from 1992-1998, and understanding how things work, I cringe when I hear people say "Just do it" or "Take the plunge"! It's not that simple.
I'm a Network Administrator (MCSE, CCNA) with more than 5 years experience, and I had trouble finding people who would even talk to me. The common response was "You probably want too much", or "Ok, we'll offer you a 3 month contract (175,000 pts) and see how it goes from there", which we all know means, "We'll pay you to work here for three months, train someone who'll work cheaper, then fire you". I'm actually getting out of the Navy in one month, and have a job in Seattle making decent money (decent considering we're in a recession), but once I'm settled, I'll be looking at getting qualified to teach english in Spain and hopefully, in say 3-4 years, move to there (Sevilla, Valladolid, or Cadiz).
Truthfully, I'd much rather do that than IT any day- irregardless of how much more money I'd make in IT. The one thing that scares me though is that whole contract thing. If you make it past 3 years, you're golden, but until then you're kinda walking on eggshells hoping you don't get let go. I know of two people who worked at the same place for just over 2 1/2 years and were let go just before the company would be forced to make them
"fijo", or a permanent employee.
Getting back to why I think the ESL thing would be a good option- schools and colleges would hire you (8 times out of 10) over a Spaniard who's studied English simply because you're native. Being native is the one thing that will give you the advantage. And unless you have some "hook-ups", that's your best card to play. I wish you the best of luck. Who know's? Mabye we'll teach at the same University some day!

Wow, so many ideas, suggestions, advice, concerns, etc...

I posted a few times on this thread earlier, had PC "problemas" and now I am back .

On the ESL/Trabslations topic. While there are many available positions here in Spain (especially Madrid) and certification is a big plus. Many teachers are often run ragged and "abused" by schools, the mentality seems to be, get out of them what you can while you can. Having lived here for almost 6 years now, I have seen many English teachers come and run screaming!!! Truth is, it has to be a job you like or you won't last. I always say to myself that if worse came to worse I would go back to teaching English here in Madrid just to make ends meet even though I hated it. I taught English here and did translations for over a year when I came here with my "Just Do It" attitude years back (best decision of my life! ) but since I was a Spanish teacher in NY, USA, English teaching was not for me. I used to go on interviews to teach Spanish here and always ended up being offered an English position due to my being from the U.S.A.

As for interpreting/translating, translations are hard to get and usually they ar eavailable through agencies that charge the client 10-16 pesetas/word and pay you 3-6 to do all the work. You really have to swallow your pride here but you can make good maoney if you give it the old proverbial "College Try". Just don't come over thinking you are going to be able to live off of translations, it is not usually steady work.

On the EU interpreter/translator topic (Antonio's post above a bit), Antonio, you are more than correct, the EU exam for this is nect to impossible and while it pays amazingly (350.000 - 500.000 ptas./month) to be an official EU translator/interpreter), you need to be fluent in your native tongu as well as at LEAST 2 other EU languages and they usually ask for 3 or 4.

Hi missmadrid98, I totally agree with you and all you have posted! I feel the exact same way here in Madrid with my majestic views of the Plaza Mayor. I never dreamed I would live in a beautiful Apt. overlooking the Plaza. I used to live in a basement apartment on Long Island before I made my jump over to Spain and I even paid more for that place than I do now in rent. So great to wake up to Madrid EVERY day! I could not be happier and I am not rich, like you said about L.A., if I wanted that lifestyle I would have stayed in NY with my $40.000/year teaching job. I have luxuries here in Madrid: car (old but good), all the amenities of a nice home and although I make good money, I would be just as happy earning half of what I do. I think your post above is an inspiration to all thinking about taking the plunge, KUDOS!

Bueno... MandridMan, I have made many education contacts over here since I set up www.oleidiomas.com so if you do go the ESL route, let me know so I can help you with the job-search .

As for honing your PC/design/programming skills. Good idea, I love your website but to make it here in Spain you really need to know LOASD in this field. When I got sick of teaching/translatiing years back, I started to teach myself graphic and web design in a cyber café (I did not even have a PC). I set up the aforementioned olé idiomas and a few other webs and then started looking for my own web clients. Now I have many clients and the hosting fees make me a decent yearly salary alone, not to mention the updates, changes, etc that I charge for as well as any new clients that may come along. It is ironic, I do not know enough about programming to work for a design company here in Madrid but I have my own thriving web business, weird !

When I began to teach myself graphic & web design, I tried to go on a few interviews in that field but was told that I did not know enough and I could not work fast enough for them. Thing is, I take my time when I design, like and artist. So, I can not just churn out site after site. I love what I do now and I always have at least 1 new web a month to do for a client which I take the whole month (or 6 weeks) to complete and charge between 200.000 and 300.000 ptas so it is a good salary since ialso have hosting and other businesses going on.

En fin... HONE YOUR SKILLS - The tech companies here are very demanding. If you browse through the job market at www.segundamano.es in these fields (Internet, programming, etc...) it may scare you to see how demanding they are. Keep the faith!

Saludos,
jer...

p.d. As for [your ladyfriend], one day she shall succumb to your MM powers and marry you. Ena (my Madrileña) and I look forward to painting the town "rojo" with you two here in Madrid !

[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

MadridMan don't do it!!!!!
Spain is great as a vacation destination right now, but to live there is something completely different.

There are thousands of teachers, thousands of nurses, and thousands of other professionals that are coming to the US from Spain to find work. Madrid's crime rate is soring!(My aunt's first night there she was robbed gunpoint just above the Puerto del Sol last year) There are more violent crimes (with guns too)than in many cities in LA county. I know you love Spain, as I do. However, if you really want to live there in Madrid, make a lot of dollars here first and buy a flat in an upscale neighborhood.

Or at least wait a little. My sources in the Bush gov't.( I have a few inside sources in the Bush administration from college) tell me that Aznar is working Spain's way into NAFTA and out of the EU. After the EU goes east, Spain is going to jump onboard. At that time (about 2004), Spain will be directly involved in the expansion of NAFTA into the rest of Latin America. From this, there will be A LOT MORE collarboration between Spain and the US and a good paying job here and there will be had by all (especially from those who can speak spanish and english)

from one American to another,
patience is the best virtue for you now!

Ha, ha, ha, very funny

Ignacio, holding his belly with both hands. (We have to have more of this humour in the forum).

:p Jer sticking his tongue out and rolling his eyes at toddy for6t such a silly post

Also busting a gut along with Ignacio

Ok, I guess we are all entitled to our opinions but toddy... where on earth did that post on violent Madrid come from my friend? Sounds like an ex-pat scorned! Someone who maybe gave it a go but found it was not for him/her.

I live here and have for 6 years and this is the BEST place on earth! (another opinion I guess).

Saludos,
jer...

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: jer ]

Not scorned,
I just thing Madridman should be cautious and wait a little.
I don't think a soaring Madrid crime rate is something to laugh at. Quite the contrary; it is something to use as a con in deciding to move to Madrid. (unless of course you are going to live in a protected Madrid suberb)

Toddy is playing "Scrooge" to a decision that involves something more tangible than an alleged "soaring Madrid crime rate".

Does that mean that he should only live within the boundaries of a protected Madrid suburb? ...and never walk around "Puerta del Sol" because people can get mugged there?

I lived for five years in Madrid and have traveled there on numerous occasions and never been mugged. Granted I'm very familiar with times of the day, tricks of "would be robbers", how to make oneself less of a target, not to look lost (although I've never been lost in Madrid, or here in the US for that matter, I look forward to find my way along new routes and try my "situational awareness", something other people may think of as been "lost")etc. But then again, I'm also very familiar with the city I've lived in for eighteen years and felt very savvy and self-confident and still got mugged here across from the Miami International Airport at an ATM machine parking lot for the first time in my life three months ago. Two facial broken bones and a broken finger as a result. Does that mean I'm going to stop using ATM machines? Hardly! ...Or going to the airport? Not a chance! I'll definetely be more careful, choose more secure places, with lots of people, (something very hard to do at many places in the US at night, which by and large are mostly solitary)but such an unfortunate incident is not going to stop me from partaking in the real joy of living...something that Madrid offers like no other city in the world...ETA bombings notwithstanding!

Toddy:¡En-chúfate and have a refreshing summer horchata on me next time you are in Madrid!...And MM...if there's a face that makes you feel you could die of tenderness every time you look at it...go for it!

...Jer, nice rainbow!

[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: Tramontana ]

Now THAT is a post Tramontana my man!

I am 150% in agreement with you. I have lived here for 5 years straight and prior to that as 1 year as a student here in a Spanish program through Middlebury College in Vermont, U.S.A. and not ONCE have I experienced a mugging nor even a pickpoketing. Well, actually once on a Metro car in Madrid with my huge travelling backpack and looking like a true tourist someone tried to fiddle his hand into the back of the pack behind me but I quickly smoooshed him into the wall and told him (in perfect Spanish) that if he wanted a guidebook to read I would lend him one

Also had a scare on new years day at 5:30am in the ever so dark Plaza de Colón where the bus leaves from the airport but I got on the bus before a few guys reachwed me. I think they were just talking shi... anyway, like "let's get that guy" but without any real "huevos" ("eggs" = "balls").

All in all, I do not see these two incidents in over 6 years as motivation for me to leave my apartment overlooking the Plaza Mayor for a fenced in neighborhood of "La Moralaja" with 3 doormen and 2 security guards nor such an "upscale neighborhood" where many people settle into a rut and never even make it to the actual city center to experience Madrid as it should be lived. I have fellow ex-pat buddies who live in thes ugly monolithic "bloques" ("block apartment buildings" in Alcobendas and such and never get to Sol or anywhere near it.

My feeling is that if you are going to live in Madrid (or any ohter historical city) you should, if not have an apt., in the historical part, than at least travel to it often.

I can not imagine living in the "protected suburbs" and also working out there, it would give me the sensation that I do not even live in Europe and if I wanted it that way I would have stayed in my basement apartment on Long Island N.Y. with views of my landlord's 3 kid's feet playing outside of my ground level windows and the amazing LILCO (Long Island Lighting Company) power lines in the background (icon inserted for lack of one depicting a vomiting graemlin!).

So, toddy, I think your posted opinions are a bit elitist but I will defend till my death your right to express them.

Go for it MadridMan!

Saludos,
jer...

p.d. The Rainbow was my pleasure

[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: jer ]

Madridman, and everbody else, I didn't say not to go to Madrid, just wait and see. And if you do carefully plan to go, think about your future. I don't know if you are looking to a future family, but for me, I would NEVER want to push my child's stroller past the prostitutes and drug addicts and yes drunken filth. I think the life is great for the young at heart (I too enjoy dancing and drinking till dawn...cheaply) but how can you justify putting a child through those conditions?! The noise, broken glass, urine, and cig butts are not civilized necessities for raising a child.

And Never just think with your heart because ................
A love of a woman should never be equated with senseless regionalism!

toddy, thanks very much for your concern. But no, I/we have no intentions of starting a new family (I'm now 35 and she's 40), just enjoying the family my ladyfriend already has there in Madrid. So, we won't be too concerned about pushing the stroller past the prostitutes in Casa de Campo.

My first computer class starts this month (Multimedia) and I'm looking forward to it. One needs skills to survive in Spain and I'm on the road to getting them and improving my possibilities.

Toddy, .

Man! Where on this planet (if on this planit indeed) do you live. Your profile says U.S.A. but I can't imagine where. Sounds like you live in a dream world, maybe inside a Leave it to Beaver episode?

How can you leave a post like the one above with such an elitist quote? Madrid is a city and as cities go it is not what you make it out to be. Have you even been here? Ok, there are prostitutes and homeless and as you so understandingly put it "drunken filth" (who may or may not have fall en through the cracks of society) but what city does not have these problems.

Please think before posting

Saludos,
jer...

p.d. MM, I was surprised to read that you do not want to have a little Madrileño/a of your own Could be a new site at www.madridboy.com or www.madridgirl.com

Oh yeah, good luck with your MultiMedia course.

Jer,

Don't be so harsh, please. No, I'm joking.

I also often find Toddy's posts very imaginative, but I suppose she has her right to express her misinformed opinion on Madrid, Spain, and science-fiction politics. . Spain at the Nafta!!! She is killing me (LOL). Why not at the former COMECON of the USSR, or at the SEATA, for Asia. Maybe at the Mercosur, with Argentina and Brasil?.

We both know that most of what she refers to is located in very specific areas of the town, and that you can live years in Madrid and not see it if you don't go specifically for it. Only the area of Casa de CAmpo (not very downtown), where the Amusement PArk is, and has a number of prostitutes working in the streets, and in the Gran Via area side streets there are both prostitutes and homeless. Just the most visited area by 'downtown tourists'.

Hoewever, none of these areas are dangerous, and, whereas some of the girls are seen by kids when going to the a. park by car, they don't offer to them as far as I know!!!

Ignacio

Hmmmm,
I wonder why so many Spaniards have chosen to live in protected places in Madrid. I guess you should be asking them what planet are they from. Get off your Don Quixote high horse and look at the realities of Madrid.
1. Soaring VIOLENT crime rate.
2. Beggars, drunks, drug addicts are almost on EVERY street.
3. A lot of noise pollution at ALL hours(even the siesta)
4. Great Spanish food
5. Great new blend of Spanish and foreign
cuisine
6. Great new blend of Flamenco and foreign music
7. Great Flamenco
8. Cheap drinks
9. Beautiful women (but that's everywhere in Spain)
10. More jobs (albeit a lot of temp. and low paying) than most other parts of Spain.

Emotional Spanish pride aside, don't you all think it's very reasonable to look at Madrid's problems so that they can be worked on? Or do you think we should all be riding on Quixote's horse?

Please stay on topic ( ABOUT ME ME ME MEEE!!! ). There are many discussions on the quality of life in Spain in the "About Spain" forum and safety in Spain in the "Safety & Security" forum. Thank you.

So please, keep all discussions about how/if I could get MY YANKEE BUTT over to Spain!!!

Quixote's horse?!...I guess that's the horse that kicked me in the face recently and broke my bones!!! Don't you ever try to tame it, MadridMan, it's unpredictable!
Good luck with your classes!

Good thing Madrid has no coast otherwise with all that great food all the marauding sharks hanging around Florida's beaches would be there too!! Of course I don't mean to compare prostitutes and sharks, all they share is living off a very primal instinct...

Madridman, back to you, I once was confronted with living in Spain by the love of my life. Via a summer vacation, my love broke down and told me that she wanted to live in Spain. I became VERY confused. It didn't make sence. We BOTH had good jobs in the US. Neither of us had jobs in Spain. (heck, I could barely say hola)
but time passed and emotions subsided a little............and we came back to the US, continued our great jobs,and started a family. We now vacation in Spain and have an INCREDIBLE time. My suegros babysit(like great Spanish abuelos do) and I enjoy having a little vino with my suegro.
In fact, one day we plan on buying a vacation house. Some of my wife's family members are trying to come over to find work. One even got a green card.
Does this mean that the US is better, no. It just means that as Americans we are very very lucky to be able to choose our work(for the most part).
I don't know if your ladyfriend is pushing you. If she is, she's WRONG. Nobody should be preasured one way or the other.
My advise to you is to wait. There is NO reason to rush. If everything works out for you and you find a great job and you are happy in Madrid, then fantastico. However, if you feel uncomfortable, STOP, take a deep breath and wait.
I can only speak from my personal love experience. Waiting was the most rational approach and it worked out perfecto. We both now have come to the conclusion that there are good and bad things in both countries. We appreciate the good in both.
Buena suerte, and I hope one day to say en hora buena!

toddy, as I think I said earlier, I'm in no rush. In fact, I'm on a 2-year plan and expect to have everything prepared for my departure/arrival for/to Spain...if it does in fact come to pass. We'll see. 2-years is a long time and anything can happen, but I'm working towards this goal. How could I live life knowing I didn't do EVERYTHING possible to make this come true? I can't. I need to be able to look in that mirror everyday, either a mirror in the USA or a mirror in Spain, for the rest of my life knowing I exhausted ALL possibilities.

I WANT to be in Madrid. I WANT to be with my ladyfriend for the rest of my days. Call me sentimental.... OR, just call me MENTAL. heehhee... But call me in Madrid when you all get there and let's have a coffee on the terraza if the season is right.

I wish you all the best Madridman!
I look forward to having a cafe or a little vino with you in Madrid!
I'll invite you!
buena suerte!

Hey! I just found this thread (while searching for other info) and just have to throw in my two cents worth...especially after reading all the posts, and having met MM and his "ladyfriend" at the recent MM party.

MM, I understand your dilemna about the marriage deal. My husband was against the idea of marriage at first (well, still is, but we are married now), but the more we talked about it the more we realized that it was the only way for us to legally be together (world politics really suck sometimes) be it in the United States or in Spain. My husband was a absolute Angel about the whole marriage process --hence his name-- (in the end, in the beginning there were a lot of tears and tension...my mother is a methodist minister).

Issues between you and your lady friend are definitely personal and I don´t want to interfere, but just want to throw out there the idea of a relationship being a shared responsibility. If you are willing to take the leap to move to Spain, wouldn´t she be willing to take the leap and get married, if it doesn´t mean anything to her, then wouldn´t she be willing to do it for you, for whom it means so much? I just had to put that out there because Angel and I really worked on that piece for a bit.

It sounds to me, from your posts, that you are bit more cautious and conservative (and perhaps a perfectionist) than many of us here on the board (would that make you a Virgo?). A friend once told me "un paso lento, pero firme". Sounds to me like you are moving in the right direction....2 year plan, skill building, etc.

I left a $55,000 year job in television in Philadelphia (and I was on a fast track to be one of the two top execs) to move to Spain and be with Angel. People called me crazy (we too had a 3 year long distance relationship with mega phone bills, lots of email, and monthly trips between the continents). Wondered how I could base a relationship on "so little contact", but the fact of the matter was that Angel and I communicated better than many married American couples that I know.

I digress, I just wanted to animarte un poco to not give up your dream...of your ladyfriend or of Spain. If it is something that you really want, it will work out for you here. After 8 months, I feel like I am really getting somewhere, my legal paperwork is still in the process, but I am working, I am happy without the pressures of consumer driven society (I had it all and threw it away, I was tired of the rat race), and madly in love...With Angel, my "new life" and Spain.

Go for it!

WOW! You really did DIG DEEP! Hahahaa.. Well okay.. since you brought it up.. hehehe..

The "skill building" is still part of the plan, but the time it takes to build such skills leaves me obsolete by the time I have them. Chica, YOU left a good job to be with Angel. I wouldn't be leaving such a good job, but it is secure and with a decent, liveable income with good benefits. Probably with you, you left your job to be with Angel who probably also has a good-paying job. My ladyfriend is at about the level in Madrid as I am here in the USA. She already supports herself and her 78 year old mother (which is why she cannot leave her to live here with me).

Imagine if I went there, with no job, got married, and then she'd have to support all three of us for some extended period of time until I, probably then 37 years old, could get some $6-9/hour, illegal-teaching-english job. Many would say, "Well hey! At least you're together!" And this is what I say too, but let's be a little more practical, shall we? (I tend to lean towards NOT being practical, but my ladyfriend is the opposite)

Over Christmas, we discussed starting the necessary paperwork to get married when I return in the spring and we'll do that. She (and I) doesn't want us to live like paupers (poor people) and struggling with all the economic-tensions that usually brings.

High Unemployment in Spain -- highest in western europe. If only... if only things were better. If only... If only someone with some power or in a decision-making position could HELP me get a decent job there. I know- I know. EVERYONE wishes this. This is PART of the reason why I made and continue with MadridMan.com. It's been GREAT to make contacts, but none have proven useful in getting jobs in Madrid. I've made wonderful friends and some of whom have very very useful advice (i.e. Chica! ) and this all helps with the transition and in my mental well-being while I'm living in Madrid. Maybe, over time, this could help in other ways. Not sure.

So the question "Should MadridMan go to Spain?" should probably be re-titled "CAN MadridMan make a living in Spain?" Sure, I'll be happy to FINALLY be living daily life with my ladyfriend, whom I've been dating long-distance for the past 8+ years. We get along just fine in living situations. But can I contribute to the relationship financially?? Can I help our futures? Will we both retire together being as poor then as we would be at the beginning or be forced to work 'til the day we die? These are the REAL questions.

I invite any other specific points of view on this topic as it can only help my situation. But please, I won't entertain any "JUST DO IT!!" or "TAKE A CHANCE!!" type comments. Thanks very much.

Saludos, MadridMan

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

Madrid Man,

I think you are being very wise! Such a strong love must exist between you and your ladyfriend to have kept a relationship going after so long. She obviously has a commitment to her mother and you are being responsible and considerate of her by not giving her an additional burden. You are taking care of your own professional development as well as keeping this flame alive. I don't think it's wise to give EVERYTHING up for yourself no matter how strong the love.

Here are a few cases in point - a friend of mine gave everything up in Madrid to be with her novio here. I'm glad she moved her because she's one of my best friends, but I'm not glad for her sake ... she had a great job and now she can't work here. He's also from Madrid but he owns a company. She helps him out with some of his company needs and she often complains about getting caught up in his life, his work without having anything of her own. Not that there's anything wrong with ironing your novio's shirts ... but really! She was very successful in Spain and once I went there I couldn't believe what she gave up! It'd be one thing if she was blissfully happy, but she's not. Since he works from home they are always together. Major drain on the relationship.

In another happy case I know my friend met her husband here but she had to return to S. Africa. 4.5 years later, phone calls, etc; she made it back. But she was ready to leave and he is able to support her so that she now works part-time.

My Madrid friend tried to set me up with someone while I was there. One of the things I clearly saw was that if I ever moved to Spain, yes it would be more convenient to marry someone who could support me. But I wouldn't want that to be the motive. Like so many I have strong desire to live there for a while, but I knew then that if I moved there to marry this man (in theory ... because he wasn't good marriage material) I would've still wanted to continue pursuing my professional activities. I just saw this vision of myself as the bored housewife (aka my friend) and that scared me!!!

Now I am thinking wouldn't it be better to just arrange my life so I can have the best of both worlds ... live here and spend a lot of time there. (Ofcourse I am in love with the country, not with a Spaniard! And until I fall in love, where ever cupid should strike me ... I am somewhat of a free agent.)

It is a difficult balance and the key here is to know WHEN to make the right choices. I believe you should follow your heart, but that doesn't mean you can't be practical.

Churrito

Hi, MM--
I would agree with churrocaliente--it seems like for every story of "I went to Spain with 50 cents and a smile, and look at me now!" there's a "I went to Spain and had to wire home for money for a return flight." You seem to be taking the route that makes sense to me...get a plan in place, marry your lovely ladyfriend, and then make the move. As neither of you is Bill Gates (and we wouldn't like you if you were!), setting yourself up for a solid financial outlook makes sense, it seems to me. It would be awful to be there, living with your ladyfriend and working part time, and then to lose your job or to simply figure out that it just won't work. What a horrible stress on both of you that would be!!

But the waiting must be torture!! I have had to come to the realization that my dream of living in Spain is just that, a dream (because of my work and my husband's, our families, my fear of flying more than I absolutely have to, etc.). I'll travel there, and perhaps do a sabbatical semester or year someday (any Universities hiring child psych profs?), but that's likely to be it. It's sad for me to know that, though, because I love the idea of being there. If I had only been born Spanish!!

We're rooting for you, though, as you can probably tell from the sentiments expressed over and over again on the board!
Tara

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: taravb ]

Madrid is a nice place to visit, but…

I think a 6 months ago I would have given you the all-clear sign (and checking the postings, I may have) to go ahead and chance it and move to Spain regardless. However, being two months short of my two year mark year living here in Spain, I can tell you now with the eyes of true experience that life is probably better back home where you are. Spain is definitely not all it’s cracked up to be. “Be careful what you wish for...” and all that.

I think I’ve learned after living abroad for a while now that there are different phases of familiarity. There’s that first phase where it’s pure culture shock – you don’t know the language well, you can’t figure out the menus and or even the metro. Then you sort of get the feel of things, but still everything seems a bit weird. Then there’s that acceptance phase you were just sorta accept how things are because, well, you’re new here and you need to do what the Spanish do (nobody wants to be the Ugly American). Then there’s that phase I’m in right now where, basically, familiarity breeds contempt.

Since my wife is Spanish and my children will be too, I’m struggling through this phase trying to figure out how to live here without loathing everything in my daily life, but I’m not succeeding lately. I figured since I’m up late reading this forum, I’d give you a bit of advice and vent here in an open forum and maybe you or others can tell me what I’m missing. Or at least, I can give you fair warning that its not all roses living here.

Here’s my hot buttons right now. Some are more serious than others, but as silly as some things are – dealing with them on a daily basis is like an itch you can’t scratch.

Smoking: I don’t smoke, and neither does my wife. This makes 99% of all restaurants here in Madrid hell to go into. Actually, all public places from the post office, to the metro, to the office you work in are generally intolerable. I no longer work at Terra (a relatively modern company) because I finally couldn’t stand working next to all the people smoking at their desks. The vast majority of the people in my office smoked and asking to be moved because I didn’t like it was dismissed as crazy-talk. After two months of burning contact lenses and daily showers before and after work, I finally just quit – giving my resignation to the smoking and pregnant HR woman in the back. When’s the last time you saw a pregnant woman smoking? I’ve never seen one before – it was incredibly disgusting and angering – and yet not uncommon here in Spain.

Not smoking also makes meeting people pretty impossible too since most people here smoke or don’t see anything wrong with it – I generally don’t want to be around smokers because there’s no sense of common courtesy here. They’ll hold a cigarette in front of your face while they’re talking and not think anything about it. And they’ll get deeply offended when you ask them to move it. And I’m thinking about my children growing up here - in a place where you can smoke in hospitals for example - and I can’t say I’m comfortable with this at all.

Sexism: Ever been to an El Cortes Ingles? Ever notice that there’s absolutely no women in managerial roles? Well that extends to basically all corporations in Spain. I’ve worked or had meetings in Airtel (Vodafone), Wanadoo, Opel (GM), Telefonica and a variety of smaller businesses and it’s amazing. No women managers or directors. And more than that, a woman’s view is more often discounted in meetings by three-piece suited managers who often have less experience than the woman they are blowing off. (And when’s the last time you saw a three piece suit, anyways?) It’s still incredible to me to watch at two o’clock as all the leisure-suited men go off and have their two hour, three course meal in some small private restaurant/bar while the women go home to eat or go to Rodilla and have a 1/2 a sandwich and a coke.

And I can’t count the number of taxi-cab drivers I’ve had who’ll swear at women drivers for being innately inept (according to them) and then purposely cut them off and scream and gesture at them. Sooo macho. Do you know it’s not illegal here to ask personal details in interviews? Wait until you’re asked how old you are in an interview – or in my wife’s case: “Are you pregnant?” (They won’t hire you if you are.) Mind-boggling.

Racism: Gosh, where do I start? It’s everywhere. The only time you’ll see a person of color is on the street or in the metro trying to sell you pirated CDs. There’s almost no minorities in the offices of major corporations or working at banks, or in shops and I’ve never seen a non-white director at a company. But more than that, there’s the constant jokes and general conversation like when my sister-in-law used to express how much she’s been working lately by saying she’s been “working like a black girl.” (It’s a common saying, but she’s since been enlightened by me.) Or, my annual favorite – one of the Three Kings in the annual parade is a white guy in black-face – and all the little children on his float are in black face too! Joy! I can’t WAIT for my children to learn from that great example. And talk to any person of any age here about anyone Arab or Muslim and you’ll get an earful. My Spanish teacher was selling her apartment and was asked earnestly by her neighbors not to sell to any Arabs because they’re dirty, etc., etc. There’s no excuse in the world for this type of ignorance.

Working: First as you know, the pay sucks – the 3rd worst in Europe – but I truly feel it’s kept at an artificially low level. I’m a programmer and I can earn at maximum less than 1/3rd of what I can back in California. It amazes me when I see advertisements for several years of experience using the latest technologies at rates of 3 million ptas ($16,000) a year. That’s almost minimum wage in Cali. Secondly, beyond the pay, there is a general level of bureaucracy and strict hierarchies in every company that is amazing. Your manager is your “boss” – think Mr. Tate from Bewitched. The managers have separate offices, dress in the famous three-piece suits, eat only with each other, and meetings with these people is usually in a “don’t speak unless spoken to” manner. There is no respect for general employees – they are expected to do whatever it is their manager asks them too. And if you’re a woman, this usually means fetching coffee or some other demeaning task. And since the unemployment here is so high, people generally do what they’re told. As general and harsh as this sounds, I’ve seen it enough to be quite sure that it’s more common than not.

Shopping/Food: Okay, so this is a little less serious, but still annoying. There is a maddening lack of customer service here which makes every trip to a store a frustration. It’s like they don’t want your money... And forget trying to do anything productive between the hours 2-5 on weekdays. Everything is closed, as I’m sure you know, and Sundays are a complete wash also. I thought this was all sort of nice when I first got here after the 24/7 consumerism of the U.S., but after a couple years, not being able to do any grocery shopping on a Sunday is more than annoying. And God help you if there’s a “Puente” and you forgot to go shopping before... you’ll starve. Selection compared to the U.S., of course, is non-existent. There is no such thing as a good pizza here, peanut-butter, roast-beef sandwiches, root beer, mountain-dew, bagels, etc. Well, there might be, but you’ll have to search for it (Taste of America, for example) – and believe me, that too becomes annoying after a couple years. Also, prepare to spend an arm and a leg for decent thai or sushi or any of those other “exotic” foods. And tele-chino is the closest thing to poison I think anyone can possibly ingest without dying.

Generally when buying or ordering any sort of product or service, I expect the worst and usually get it. We ordered ADSL from Telefonica recently and after a month went by, without notice, we finally received a note in our mailbox that said that we needed to call Telefonica. The woman on the phone then said because they had stopped by both the day before and that same day, that our order had been cancelled and we had to start from scratch again (another month at least). Of course, I wasn’t working at the time and was home all day during these days, so it was basically an out-and-out lie (not uncommon either). No previous notice, no note the day before saying they stopped by, nothing except being notified that we had our order had been cancelled. No amount of screaming would convince Telefonica that they were wrong. But then again, everyone has a Telefonica story, we have ours now.

Spanish: How’s your Spanish? Mine sucks – but the fact is that nothing in the world except time and effort will cure this. Don’t get me wrong, I’m basically fluent – I live 100% in Spanish. I watch Spanish TV, I work in Spanish, I speak to my wife and in-laws in Spanish, I read Harry Potter in Spanish and I take Spanish lessons every week. However I have an accent that will always be with me, and admittedly, my vocabulary could use some work. But nothing but time will fix these things. Thus I am relegated to daily conversations with the people around me where they look at me with a quizzical expression first, then say “QUE?” at the top of their lungs regardless of the sentence or question that comes out of my mouth. This is a general fact of living in another country – Americans are the worst at this sort of thing and I’m afraid for the day my wife lives in the U.S. and has to deal with our low linguistic tolerance, but for now the shoe is on my foot and it’s not fun. “I’d like a quarter kilo of ham, please.” QUE?!? “Where is the Men’s section?” QUE?!? “Two tickets for 10 trips, please.” QUE?!? “Hi, I’m here for a meeting with Senior Soandso.” QUE?!? Such fun.

Hospital Care: I’m on a role, I might as well keep going. Happily my wife is 22 weeks pregnant with a little boy. Unhappily, we’ve decided to have the baby here in Madrid. We chose a doctor with a nice little office on Serrano and for the first few visits everything seemed okay. He had a modern ultrasound machine in his office, computers, etc. The next time we went to the doctor, however, I asked him about the hospital where we are going to have our baby which we had just checked out – and not having the words for “musty,” “run-down,” “ancient,” and “foreboding,” I simply said that the hospital was a bit “gray” and that I was worried about it. This is when I discovered “the options.” He literally said, “What’s wrong with that hospital? I was BORN in that hospital. Half of Madrid was born in that hospital. There’s nothing wrong with it. It has everything it needs – you’re baby will be fine.” Wow. And what about the options to have a baby? Will my wife be comfortable? What kind of room will we have, for example? This is when our doctor went off about these silly American books about pregnancy (specifically like the dual copies of “What to Expect When You’re Expecting / Que Se Puede Esperar Cuando Se Esta Esperando.” I bought for us after I found out we were going to have a baby) and how these books give his patients “strange” ideas. Like having a comfortable environment where my wife can have her baby – like not having the baby in the same room that someone had their gallbladder out an hour before, etc. He says, and again, I quote. “It’s not like you have no options. For example you can elect to have or not to have an epidural block.” Joy. Basically, think health care of 1964 – no options and who are you to ask anyways? My favorite is when my wife told the doctor she was still jogging, he told her that she immediately needed to stop because she was building up “acetone” in her body and it was bad for the baby. Um, OK. Several hours of searching on the internet didn’t come up with anything on that one, so she’s still running (or waddling quickly, actually now… ;-) ). We may be switching doctors soon, but since this guy was recommended to us, I can't imagine what a "bad" doctor would be like.

I could go on and on and on. Horrible winter weather, ETA bombs, double-parked-honking-jerks, over-priced English books, you name it. These are just the worst complaints of the lot...

So, MadridMan are you prepared? Do you really believe that you can shed your 25+ years of American culture so fully that you’ll have no problems living in this world? I thought at first that I could do it without problems, but I’m now finding that it’s quite a lot harder than it seems.

-Russ

Hi taravb!

I don't agree with you at all.
I'm sorry but I'm very bad at Enlish and I spend more than 30 minutes in writing 10 lines so, I'm only going to answer one of your points. RACISM.

I've two ways to answer you, a good one and a bad one.
With the bad one, I would say that most of the spaniards think that americans are much more racist than spaniards, and I would say the reasons why they think it. For me this is the "bad answer" because most of you are americans and you are going to "eat me" without trying to understand my point of view.

With the good one...
a/ "The only time you’ll see a person of color is on the street or in the metro trying to sell you pirated CDs". I think that Fernando knows a lot about Spain's history. Spain has been invaded loads of times but never by a country with persons of color. So, here there is no person of color. Nowadays a lot of persons of color is comming to Spain from Africa looking for a better way of life. They come here without work and without any papers. The fastest way to earn a bit of money without stealing is to sell pirated CD's and to work in the country. In their origin countries only the privileged ones can go to the school, few people work and when they work they do it in agriculture. Most of them haven't seen a computer in their live. Most of the times they are fleeing of their civil wars and they don't even know speaking Spanish.

That is the main reason why "no minorities in the offices of major corporations or working at banks". But ... their children will study at our schools and they will speak Spanish since chilhood and ... they will study systems engineering, medicine and then, you could see them working in banks.

Nowadays, the first generation of persons of color is arriving to Spain. It happened the same two centuries ago in the United States (the slaves taken from Africa), and now, the children of the children of the children of that slaves are Bank Managers ... as I hope that it will happen in Spain soon.

I'm sorry again for my horrible Englis

Bye.

Hi, hombre_gizon--
Just to clarify, the post to which you just responded wasn't mine (it was LostInMadrid's post)!!

Mine was the one above it. I didn't comment on racism or any of the other issues. And your English is fine, hombre_g, WAY better than my Spanish!

I just want to maintain my neutrality on all controversial issues (except for the case of pretzels I'm sending to President Bush--chew first, swallow first, whatever you prefer, mini-George!). Also, my husband would be rather surprised to learn that I have a pregnant wife and secret double-life in Madrid!

Tara

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: taravb ]

I'm sorry for the mistake with the names

LostInMadrid, I read your posting with GREAT interest. Thanks for your point of view. REALLY! Thank you. Honestly, I think I could "deal" with almost everything you mention above because in order to keep my sanity I sometimes have to "look the other way" or "keep my sensitive nature controlled".



I don't doubt this is "the way it is" in the majority of cases in Spain -- hard for me to imagine, though, being nearly best-friends with my boss these past 5+ years. Still, the situation you describe is frightening, but I've heard others say the same thing -- that people will do WHATEVER they're told just to keep their job, in order to continue providing for their family and NOT have to deal with the stress of being unemployed.



Sheesh! This scares me too!! I don't have hardly ANY specialized skills so what can I expect??! Sheesh! Well still, it sounds as if you're making a good wage, much higher than that "minimum wage" so I hope you consider yourself fortunate. It's easier to "find fault" and shout the problems with "the system" if you're sitting in a secure position than if you're in danger of losing your job any day of the week.

Really, thanks so much for your insight, information, and opinions. I may be contacting you directly for more details. I don't claim to be "starry-eyed" with dreams of the perfect life in Spain. Not at all, in fact.

Saludos, MadridMan

LostinMadrid,

Thanks for your candid perspective on Madrid. If we all sit around here on this board and just talk about what's so amazing and wonderful about Spain we're not doing ourselves a service. Thanks for overlooking any potential nasty responses to give us your honest view of Madrid.

I have only visited Madrid, but have been exposed to some of the same frustrations you live with on a daily basis. The smoking is outrageous. Yes, the freedom to do so is a justification, but with second-hand smoke a major documented cause of health problems and cancer it seems disrespectful to those around you. NOTE: I'm a smoker who lives in California! The smoke was even too much for me...

I have no exposure to corporate culture in Spain, but would say that although the U.S. is quite advanced in this area, there are still many many examples of "glass-cielings" (barriers for women/minority advancement). The TECH industry here is exceptionally good, but many industries in the US are woefully behind the times.

But I want to echoe hombre_gizon's point about racism. You are right to point out this is a nuetral issue between Spain and the US. Most Americans consider Mexicans to be dirty, dangerous and socially disturbing. Like Spaniards view South Americans (but especially north Africans), people in the US view Mexicans. For that I agree with both "lost" and "hombre" - this is a digusting, unforgivable trait we both share!

I think more than anything, LostinMadrid's post prooved that moving to another country and culture is not to be undertaken lightly. Living where one doesn't "really" fit in, and has all the stress of "anthoer way" of living can be incredible.

I have many friends here in the Silicon Valley that are from Spain. Most all love it here, but I always find it interesting the issues they bring up - like you LostinMadrid brought up about Spain. How fat Americans are, how much money we spend on bombs and warfare when our public school system is in shambles, bla bla bla...

All of us, from our different countries, have our negative points and embarrassing traits. These are issues we should all (especially those thinking of moving, but havn't spent a significant amount of time in that locatio) have access to.

Do the Spaniards on this board have any comment for LostinMadrid's other points and frustrations???

I just want to comment on one of LostInMadrid's points...his description of the medical system's approach to pregnancy care. It has taken the American medical establishment a LONG time to stop thinking of pregnancy and childbirth as an illness. Some would say that we haven't even reached that point yet.

I have an American friend who had a baby in Madrid around the same time I had my daughter here in Minnesota, and our experiences were worlds apart. Her delivery was still SAFE, and CLEAN, so those minimum standards were certainly met...but as for the "warm and fuzzy" approach our current hospitals and birthing centers advocate, there was NONE of that. Dad wasn't invited, the room was just like any regular hospital room (not that laboring moms need to be at the Ritz, but it's nice to have a couple of comfortable chairs, a TV/VCR for watching distracting movies, and a radio). In her experience, it was a very "medical" process, rather than a natural one with medical backup available. She compared it to having a baby here in the US in the 1970s.

But it was still safe, and still ultimately lovely...just different. I wonder if you might have better luck, LIM, engaging the assistance of a doula (labor/childbirth support person--not the same as a midwife, though some people are trained as both). If there are doulas available in Madrid (and I would imagine there are), you can have her accompany you and your wife to the hospital. Assuming she's a Spanish doula, she could also help you out if your Spanish fails you under stress/excitement. She could also lobby for some of the little comforts you and your wife would like. If your doctor doesn't object to having her around, that might be a good support.

Best of luck!
Tara

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: taravb ]

No matter how well a person feels they are prepared for making a major change in lifestyle, they aren't nearly as ready as they think. I guess that's why the vast majority of all Americans who try to change their life, by living in a foreign country, fail. It's the difference between visiting and enjoying something, and becoming totally immersed in it.

But there's one thing that is common amongst all of those who succeed and fail. They all say, "I won't have any problem. I'm looking forward to it, and am prepared."

That old adage; "The grass is greener on the other side of the fence," obviously applies.

Then there was Irma Bombeck, who said, "The grass is always greener over the septic tank." At times she was more on the money than anyone would imagine.

But like another old adage says; "We live and learn."

Wolf

That the "grass is (always appears) greener on the other side" puts this into perfect perspective. As most all is a matter of perspective…

Utopian society doesn't (can't / won't) exist, and we all have choices on where we live by making sure the positives outweigh the negatives.

It's such a personal perspective...

And these issues are not limited to Spain v. Columbus, Ohio questions...we're in the process of trying to arrange a move from Minneapolis to Florida, and are weighing many similar issues (lifestyle, politics, career trajectories), albeit on a smaller scale. It's different, of course, to be considering a move to another country altogether--but it's only a extension of the cost/benefit analyses we all do throughout our lives. It's inherently personal...but it's also helpful to have as much information as possible to guide the decision process. LostInMadrid may have pointed out something MM hadn't thought about yet (though given our fearless leader's tendency to plan and plan, I would doubt that!!)--or that others who are considering such a move would need to consider.

Thanks, LIMadrid, for your insights...and also to hombre_g for his comments. Discussions like these keep me coming back to this forum even when I have other work to do!!

Tara

Hey Tara,

Where in Florida are you and your family thinking of moving to? Minnesota is such a great state (maybe too cold in winter), and Florida has its merits (the diverse Metro Miami). But what different cultures!

... what an interesting parallel to MM's move to Spain ... a nice tie-in ... you're so right. Even in the U.S. there are vast differences between our regions.

Would a Southerner like the North West, a Californian like the South, a New Yorker feel comfortable in the Heartland??? Depends on the individual .

Same thing for hopping from nation to nation. One should make the choice to move because they're attracted to thier new culture...including the negative aspects.

It's me again!

You have complained about the fact that in Spains, one year salary may be about $ 18400 and you can ear in the US more than $55000 doing the same.

But there is a thing that I don't know and I'd like all of you to explain me.
I'm going to say you the prices of many things here, in Spain and you can say me their prices in the US. I tell this because the important thing is not how much you earn, but wich is the price of the thing depending on your wage.

Here I go ...
"Menú del día" (the food I eat every day at the restaurant near my workplace): $6.3
Coffe: $0.8
Big Potatos+Hamburger+ big Coke at McDonals: $4.7
A beer at a bar: $1.1
A pair of shoes: $31.6
An dayly bottle of wine: $2.1
A good wine bottle (Rioja Crianza, Marqués de Cáceres): $5.8
A excelent wine bottle (Rioja Reserva, Marqués de Riscal): $13.2
Spend 1 night in a "Pensión" at a room with 2 beds and wc and shower: $26
Spend 1 night in a 3 or 4 start hotel at a room with 2 beds and wc and shower (with a bancotel): $45

The next thins are really expensive here:
A ordinary new car: $13000
A really very good new car (Audi A4): $26500

A new "little" flat in Madrid with 70 square metters (I don't know how many square feets are, maybe 630?) is about $200000, but the same flat in Jerez de la Frontera, near Cádiz is only $79000

Are these prices high in the US?. We earn a 1/3 of your salary, but are our prices a 1/3 of your also?.

Bye!

It's true that most things in Spain are less expensive (even down right cheap) but the one that gets me is the price of buying a flat. The salary/cost ratio is unbelievable. I can't understand how my friends can afford homes (those without daddy's help). I admire their ability to save and not to spend (and returning to the salt mine day in and day out).

LostinMadrid's last post has had me thinking. I'll repeat what others have said, but perhaps a few extra insights can be added.

First of all, I know what you're going through, LinM. The only area I don't agree with you on is racism - I'm totally with hombre_gizon. Twice in my life I lived away from the United States - once as a child for 3 years (in a small "third world" country), and once as an adult for 13 years (in Spain). Both times I went through a 2-year combination of culture shock and readjustment problems upon returning to the US. (I had no problem adjusting to the other countries!) Both times I was shocked by the high level of racism in the United States. Perhaps where you live in the US makes a difference.

However, what I really want to say is that no matter where Madridman or anyone else decides to live, it will never be perfect. Not only is Spain not perfect, "home," wherever that may be, is not perfect, either. I planned to spend the rest of my life in Spain. When life threw me some really tough challenges, I had to make the decision to stay there or move my family to the US. It was an excruciating decision. Now that I’m here in the U.S., I know I did the right thing, but I miss Spain so badly. I can complain about the U.S. now, in comparison to Spain (actually, I think I did in another post!), and I can complain about Spain, too. Two of the several reasons I don’t move back to Spain are ones LostinMadrid mentioned – low salaries, which seriously affect living conditions and the ability to save for things like the high cost of college in the U.S., and sexism. I truly believe the sexism problem in Spain is changing, but it takes time, just like it did here in the States. In my experience, it is worse among men from pueblos instead of cities, and among men who have a lower level of education (no university, in particular). In the cities, age seems to make a difference. I find many young adults in Spain to be very open, intelligent, and well-prepared for the world. Their enthusiasm and optimism is very exciting. That’s one of the reasons why I like to have my children spend a lot of time there.

LostinMadrid, I am totally convinced that raising babies and small children is MUCH better in Spain than in the U.S. I hope you have a similarly positive experience. I also hope in the meantime you find another obstetrician you like better. I’ll post something about my experiences in another thread.

As for the cost of things, the biggest difference is housing. Gasoline is a lot more expensive in Spain, but the cars are smaller and therefore cheaper to drive, so it’s not a big issue.

hombre_gizon -

Thanks for bringing up the housing. I live in the heart of high-tech, and can report on this...

Yes, it's true the average tech salary here in California is $75,000 - with many making over $100,000.

Before anyone packs their bags for the SF Bay Area keep this is mind:

This is a sample of the median home prices accross California - many of these cities are in my community!!!

Belvedere/Tiburon: $1,500,000; Coronado: $862,500; Pacific Palisades: $837,500; Palos Verdes Estates: $801,000; Menlo Park:
$790,000; Manhattan Beach, $752,000; Burlingame: $744,500; Lafayette, $733,000.

I just wanted to point this out as hombre_gizon brings up a good point about housing. Look again at those housing figures for my community in California (the Menlo Park figure). Doesn't it make you sick?

I would have to sink everything into a starter ($450,000) house, and then never travel ... Madrid doesn't seem all that expensive to me, but then again as you can see I have a warped idea of costs...

But hey, the possitives outweigh the negatives - that's why I'm still here...it's cost/benefit analysis, so to speak.

Very interesting topic

The culture shock is always something to take into consideration. We are very different to americans, and our countries are quite different.

Anyway, take in mind that spanish society is far from being the perfect society. We have lots of problems, some in common with the States, and other just different.

You are that used to see good opinions about Spain in this board that sometimes we may forget the dark side of Spain.

I think that LostInMadrid is right and very objective pointing out some things in which spaniards and specificly madrileños are not goo. We must admit that this problems exist here, althought we don't have the same perception of them than an american. What we see as normal you may see as crazy, inappropiate or even disgusting.

Smoking: I fully agree with you. I'm a non-smoker and I really really detest how us spaniards deal with this problem.
But we must see things in perspective to be fair. In the past years in the USA the autorithies have driven an awesome campaign against smoking, to the point that the opinions of americans and their customes have changed. This has not happened in Spain. We see smoking as something we have the right to do almost everywhere.
If I could choose, I will choose something between the spanish "I don't mind to smoke at your face in an elevator" and the american "all-forbidden". You have the right to smoke and hurt your health, but you must have the courtesy not to do it near non-smokers (who have the right to not smoke).
Anyway, don't be offended if someone smokes near you, it is just they are not aware of how much americans detest it.

Sexism: Yes you are right. Women have normally less wages than men in the same position, and there exists discrimination in almost every face of normal life.
Again, keep thing in perspective. The incorporation of the women to the jobs has occured here much late than in the USA. We were a very traditional country in this matter, and the family has always have a great value, so we are just improving in this matter (althought there is a long path to walk yet). I think that my generation (I'm 23) is much less sexist than our elders, and we will soon see executive positions filled with women.

"And I can’t count the number of taxi-cab drivers I’ve had who’ll swear at women drivers for being innately inept (according to them) and then purposely cut them off and scream and gesture at them. Sooo macho."

That is sexist yes, but also a typical "joke". I don't think that women drive worse, but I sometimes tell my mother how bad she drives just to "anger" her

"Do you know it’s not illegal here to ask personal details in interviews? Wait until you’re asked how old you are in an interview – or in my wife’s case: “Are you pregnant?” (They won’t hire you if you are.) Mind-boggling."

Is it illegal in the US? I didn't know you were so sensitive about that...
In this I must disagree, personal data is as important to fit in a job as professional one. It is important your age (to value your experience, your career, and the knowledge and mentality you may have acquired), it is important your hobbies, your customes, ...

Racism: Again I agree with you. Spaniards are racist (in our way).

"Gosh, where do I start? It’s everywhere. The only time you’ll see a person of color is on the street or in the metro trying to sell you pirated CDs."

Ein? That has nothing to do with racism. Until 10 years ago we didn't have black people in Spain. In the last years we have had inmigration, but not significant yet. In the US the blacks are a huge minority, here they are a less percentage (much less). And you can bet that the inmigrants would not be in executive posts but selling pirated CDs in Metro, they wouldn't fleed their countries if they were rich...
There is no racism in not seeing great numbers of non-white people, it is just that we don't have big numbers of them yet!

"But more than that, there’s the constant jokes and general conversation like when my sister-in-law used to express how much she’s been working lately by saying she’s been “working like a black girl.” (It’s a common saying, but she’s since been enlightened by me.)"

Keep things in perspective: We don't have Political Correctness. We are not as sensitive to these matters as you. Though it may appear to have a bad signification, what it really means is to work hard, and that is not a bad characteristic...

"Or, my annual favorite – one of the Three Kings in the annual parade is a white guy in black-face – and all the little children on his float are in black face too! Joy! I can’t WAIT for my children to learn from that great example."

That comment is funny It is very common in the US to find black people everywhere. It is not that easy to find black spaniards, nor it is easy to find black legal inmigrants, so the only way to dress the Baltasar King is to paint the face of a white guy. There is no racism in that (from my point of view).

"And talk to any person of any age here about anyone Arab or Muslim and you’ll get an earful. My Spanish teacher was selling her apartment and was asked earnestly by her neighbors not to sell to any Arabs because they’re dirty, etc., etc. There’s no excuse in the world for this type of ignorance."

Right. I fully agree. But again, give us time. We were a very poor country, now we are a first world one. The inmigration is one of the first world countries issues, and we are not yet used to it. My generation is not that xenophobic or racist.

Working: What can I say? We are a poor country with poor salaries. Our job environment is not as flexible as in the US. Still, this environment is normally confortable.

Shopping/Food: Hehehe. What you say is what is normal here. It is not worse (except the customer service, which is awful) or better than in other countries, it is just different. Shops are opened 8 hours a day (sometimes more) but in hours in which people normally go to buy (try to open a shop in the same hours as in the US and you won't sell nothing...).

"There is no such thing as a good pizza here, peanut-butter, roast-beef sandwiches, root beer, mountain-dew, bagels, etc."

Those are typical american goods, but you can still find them if you search.

"And tele-chino is the closest thing to poison I think anyone can possibly ingest without dying."

Hahahaha! You are very right!

"We ordered ADSL from Telefonica recently and after a month went by, without notice, we finally received a note in our mailbox that said that we needed to call Telefonica. The woman on the phone then said because they had stopped by both the day before and that same day, that our order had been cancelled and we had to start from scratch again (another month at least)."

Typical of Telefonica... we spaniards can't stand it, but is what we have. Don't think that other companies are better. No matter if they are french (as Uni2), american (as Aló) or from other countries. It is the same situation...

Spanish: Nothing can be done... It's a pitty but it's true. We have a great liguistical diversity, but when it comes to a daily conversation I feel that we may be somewhat intolerant. Again I think this should change with time...

Hospital Care: You are right. Our health system is almost third-world... But don't compare it with the american. The USA is richer than us, so it is normal to have a better health system (yet, ours is quite bad even by our standards).

All in all, Spain it is obviously not the USA, we are very different. Though the life here is great, it takes an american all his good effort to get used to this kind of life (same in the other way, it takes a great effort to a spaniard to get used to the american lifestyle). You are right LostInMadrid to warn MM.

Very insightful post, and quite objective.

Yet, don't get the impression life in Spain is bad.

Fernando

I'll have to read this again - packed with so many good observations from a Madrileño!!!

Very very interesting how our world is colored by the culture we see it from. Many issues are perverted by the perspective you're looking at it from!

In my opinion, all these issues we're discussing here are many of the reasons it's very healthy to travel a lot or live an extended period of time away from your home country. This gives one the better ability to view themselves and thier own culture. For me it has pointed out what can be sooo wrong with the U.S., and also what is to be thankful for and appreciative.

This can only be done without being hyper sensitive and deffensive about what is yours - all these posts seem very respetful! Very interesting - anyone else want to give their perspective???

To LostInMadrid, I grew up in Queens NY, and moved to HSV Alabama(found biological father here), anyway, since I've traveled thru-out my life in the US and in other countries, the problems they have there in Spain, they also have here in the States, including the smoking, the salaries, not finding certain foods, etc.. I know because, besides learning this from traveling everywhere, I am seeing it here in Alabama. The first 5 yrs, out of 7 yrs, I've complained about what I don't have, how closed minded people are and how slow they are here with the times, and so much Sh*t, but I decided to learn to appreciate what I do have and not waste time complaining. Just make the best of what you have, Otherwise, you will bring yourself down, besides the people around you, and it's not a way to live these days. I also know that everyone has some form of racism in them, so be realistic. It's part of nature, so in essence, I agree with Fernando. The bottom line LostInMadrid, if you are that unhappy, then change it, so I can see you SMILE!!
BTW-Living in Alabama these last few years, had prepared me to live just about anywhere , so that is why I'm trying to find a way to live in Spain now I'm leaving next week for another visit there! I'm so excited!!!!
LittleWing

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: LittleWing ]

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: LittleWing ]

I've lived for two years in Spain (Sevilla) and I am in New York City now. I think the lifestyle here is the best of both worlds. We don't need a car and can save that money to travel to Spain and other places on vacation. I don't think I would want to live in 95% of the places in the America of strip-malls and subdivisions.

One comment on health care: The health care for those Americans that have health insurance provided by their employer is among the best in the world and would be better than that of Spain. But millions of Americans lack health insurance and are refused care by that system unless they pay incredibly high prices. My wife went to the doctor the other day and it was $300 for the 15 minute appointment, of which she had to pay $15. Thank God she is insured. And sometimes doctors and hospitals charge higher prices to those without insurance than to those with (they have agreements with health insurers for lower prices). In effect, sometimes the uninsured subsidize care for the insured. This is a horrible system for those who are left out. In Spain, no Spanish citizen is left out.

I think it is much easier to live on a small salary in Spain than it is in the US.

I am so impressed with how carefully everyone in this thread has been presenting their (inherently subjective) opinions! Someone pointed out that thinking about these issues is a good reason to encourage lots of travel, and I couldn't agree more.

When I was growing up, we took all the vacations we could afford, both inside and out of the US, and had 4 different exchange students (from Germany, Japan, and Spain). Without those experiences, I don't think I could have fallen in love with Spain as I did, and I think I might not have opened my eyes to some of the positives and negatives of living in either Spain or the US.

Along with all of these issues, though, is one that's near and dear to MM's heart (since we began by debating his future!), I know...wanting desperately to be near the people we love. I absolutely ADORE living in Minnesota (no, I am not crazy!), but my family is in north Florida. Do I want to move there for the lifestyle, the pace, the bugs, the alligators and lizards, the interminable strip malls and suburbs, etc.? No, I want to be near my folks. I'll put up with a lot to be closer to family. So in this cost/benefit analysis we each have to make, we throw this one HUGE, entirely emotional and irrational, piece!

Thank you all for the insights--this has been a fascinating topic for me!

Tara

I LOVE THIS DISCUSSION!! I think this is great!! People are really thinking about the pros and cons of living in a foreign country....not just traveling on vacation.

I excruciated over the decision to move to Spain last spring after our wedding. Especially when Angel said that he would be willing to move to the USA. In the end, Spain won out (at least for now )

Why? Because I knew that I wanted to have a family life...to have a family, to spend time with my husband, to have a quality of life that I didn´t have while working 60+ hours a week in a stressful job. I couldn´t imagine bringing my husband (non English speaking), a little on the reserved side, to the USA where I was burning the midnight oil and just toss him to the wind. We came to the conclusion that the best place for the two of us to START our lives together was in Spain. Will we stay here forever? Who knows?? If you had asked me five years ago if I would be willing to quit my job and move to a country where I would be earning 1/9th my salary I would have laughed in your face...but time and experiences change things.

I agree with almost everything that Lost In Madrid said about the frustrating things here in Spain...particularly Telefonica. We too have ordered the ADSL kit and are waiting with our fingers crossed for the modem to be delivered.

However, being a minority female (half Filipino, half German-American) who has worked with everyone from politicians, celebrities, CEOs, homemakers and everyone in between, I have to say that the grass is not greener in the USA (salaries are though!! ). I, throughout my life in the USA, have experienced racism, sexism, classism...I just think that they have made me a stronger person. I think that the racism that exists here in Spain is actually more palatable (gosh is that politically correct? Is that possible?). In the USA the racism AND sexism are so subtle it´s disgusting. I think that it is so subtle that many Americans have themselves convinced that we are well on our way to having nearly eliminated it.

I have been in the role of hiring staff, have been trained in asking the "right" questions to get candidates to talk about their personal life without you even asking about it. It happens all the time. It happens in corporate America and it happens in small business.

My job interviews here in Spain have been an absolute "adventure" (I prefer to see the glass half full than half empty). I think the best one was when the five local presidents of an international non-profit sat around a table and asked me all sorts of interesting questions (I was a professional fundraiser in the USA)...like, was I married? Of course I responded yes. Did I have any children. The smart a** in me escaped when I asked them if my husband counted.... . They didn´t know quite how to respond...so I followed it up with a smile and said "sorry, American humor that didn´t translate well"...and they all chuckled...a bit relieved. In the end I got the job offer, and in the end I didn´t accept it (the salary was woefully less that what I am earning now! is that possible?? Is it because I am a woman??).

I guess what I am trying to say is that crazy things happen in both countries. If you think life is better in Spain, it isn´t. It´s just different. So, just throw away those rosy colored glasses right now. How a person accepts (or not) those differences is their key to success in living happily (or unhappily) in a new environment.

For anyone who is considering a move here (or major change anywhere) I highly recommend you buying and reading the book " Who Moved My Cheese? " ( ¿Quien se ha llevado mi queso? <-full text in Spanish). Then take out 3 sheets of paper. On the first, list what you like and dislike about the USA, on the second what you like and dislike about Spain (or new location). On the third sheet, list the things that you absolutely could not live without, or tolerate...if they appear on the Spain (or other location) list, think long and hard about the decision to move. If it´s something you really cannot tolerate, and it´s something that exists here, you will not be happy.

So, I can´t get a Philly Cheesteak here 24/7. That´s what makes my visits home so special (aside from visiting family & friends), and the pizza isn´t what I am used to...oh well...give me a tortilla española, bocadillo de calamares, cordero con patatas or paella and I am happy (and will make a mad run for the local pizza shop as soon as I land in Philadelphia)!

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Chica ]

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

I've been thinking about the salaries/wages issue since I read it here and I think I have a point

First of all there is an obvious reason for this: USA is the main world power and much richer than Spain (I think noone can discuss this).

But there are other several things that make the saliries seem lower in Spain than they really are (those I've been thinking about).

One of them is the dollar. In 1991 a dollar was equivalent to 91 pesetas, now it is 185 and it has reached 205 months ago. I'm not a economist, but I think that this is intentional in some way to keep the comercial flux balanced. In reality a dollar is more or less equivalent to 120 pesetas, that is, with 120 pesetas here you can buy an equivalent good for one dollar in the USA. Thus, when you convert the wages into dollars they seem lower than they really should be.

If not for that, also think that taxes in Spain are higher than in the USA (I discussed this topic with JoeSambuca in the party). This may seem unfair, but Europe have traditionaly been more "social" in this matter and that make us seem uncompetitive. The higher taxes, though, make us have some benefits that americans don't have: we don't have to pay for a health insurance for example. In the USA a company can fire you at almost no cost, in Spain they have to pay you an indemnization proportional to how many days you have worked for them. With this scheme, a company for which you have been working for years would pay you millions of pesetas in order to fire you.

Also, when you have been fired, you receive a fraction of your salary from the government while you are searching for another job.

When you are 65 years-old you can stop working and you will receive again a fraction of your salary for the rest of your life. If things get complicated (your husband/wife dies, you have a health problem that makes you minusvalid, you have to care for a familiar, or for a Down Syndrome boy, or you are unable to perform your job due to health problems) you perceive a "salary" from the government, the graver the situation, the higher it is.
Parents also get some tax aids when they have three or more children, as well as discounts in the schools and colleges (which would anyway be very cheap because public schools are free, and colleges are very very cheap, as much as 1,000 $ per year or less).

Another reason yet is that life in Spain is usually cheaper compared with the USA. If you don't consider high-tech products or those which are imported (which are the less, because we have the industry producing here) the rest are quite cheap, sometimes 2 or 3 times cheaper than in the rest of Europe and USA.

Not to say about aids to acquire a flat. If your income is low, you may buy a "vivienda protegida" for a forth of its cost...

All in all, the salaries are lower here yes, but not as much as people has pointed out, because we should not only consider how much money you get, but the social services you also get for your taxes.

3 million pesetas is quite a good salary, or at least fair, but a programmer usually improve his income gradually, and he will probably end earning 6 million or even more, which is more than reasonable for our standards:
a high executive earns 12-20 millions
a president of a big company 100-200 millions
the spanish president 12 millions
a secretary 1.5-2 millions
a high engineer 10 millions
a McDonald's fulltime employee 1 million
etc...

Best regards.

Fernando

This is a wonderful discussion with many thought provoking insights from board members on both sides of the ocean. hombre_gizon, your comments on racism - followed by comments from Diana, Fernando, Chica, and I believe, JJP - are so right on. As Chica pointed out - racism and sexism most definately exist in the US - they exist on a subtle level which is insidious in that no-one acknowledges - ergo can eleminate - them. BTW - your comments about interviewing potential staff were priceless! I really believe that much of the current sexism and racism that LIMadrid discussed will be eliminated as the more recent university graduates move into higher responsibility level positions in their chosen fields.

But as any number of you pointed out - especially Diana with so much experience from both sides - there is always a need to adapt, to change/temper your needs and expectations when moving from one area to another. Culture shock isn't something that usually hits at first - but most often after being somewhere for a while. That's when the proverbial rose-colored glasses come off - in coping with day-to-day living. We need to put everyting into perspective - that is most important to each of us.

LIMadrid, I really hope things improve for you. As a parent I must agree with Diana's commetns (once again) - Spain is a wonderful place to raise children - it's a country far more "child-frinedly" than the US. Good luck to you and your wife -

This is a great, down to brass tacks thread!

I am reminded of the time I moved to Venezuela when I was about 8 years old. I had never lived anywhere but in the US. I hated everything about Venezuela and kept referring to the US as the standard that the rest of the world should aspire to. Now, more than two decades later, I realize how naive and chauvinistic I was. I couldn't appreciate what was wonderful about Venezuela.

There is no doubt that the US is a wealthy, philanthropic (I know, I work in the non-profit sector), well-organized, relatively stable and progressive country. I still think that for personal development and freedom (especially for women), constitutional rights and creature comforts, the US is probably the premiere heaven on earth. But ... it's not perfect! Have you ever wondered why the US is called Prozac nation, in spite of how many opportunities and conveniences we have here?

Does that mean that the rest of the world needs to be like us? No, not exactly. Should human rights be universal? Yes. Should Spain lose its cultural identity to become more American? I hope not ... imagine the world one great homogenized sphere of American satellites ... Does it mean that one country's habits and traditions are *wrong* because they are offensive to American sensibilities and political correctness? I don't think so.

I think that everyone on this board has successfully covered the pros and cons of each country. Neither country is perfect and each of us has to decide what kind of love affair we want to have with Spain.

Churrito

PS ... about the smoking thing ... I am not a smoker and I gotta say that the only reason why Americans don't smoke in your face is not out of innate politeness but because of the law that dictates they can't. Try going to a bar or night club where people can smoke ...

Churro I agree 100% with your post. Nothing to add

Fernando

Churro, I couldn't have summed up my thoughts better!

I have a well traveled grandmother that told me from an early age that you really do a disservice to yourself when you don't view another country on it's OWN merrits, NOT in relationship to your own culture and nation.

Granted, it's a much different game when you live somewhere, it's the same needed perspective.

If anyone thought that being from another nation, and finding happiness in the US was that easy, they should take a look at areas in our major cities that are called such names as "Little Italy, "Little Saigon," "Chinatown," and "Little Tokyo." It tells us how important heritage is to people, and how lonesome being in a foreign nation can be at the same time.

No matter what anyone says, making a complete break from what we were raised with isn't easy. Even moving from one environment in the US to another, like Taravb alluded to, isn't easy. Since my wife and I did it more times than we'd care to count, we've suffered the weight of these decisions, and to be honest, made mistakes ourselves, at times.

Does this mean I'm against making moves that can cause culture shock? Absolutely not. If anything, my approach would be to weigh the options carefully, and understand what you will face, then - if you still are intent on making the move - do it. There's nothing worse than looking back on life, and saying; "Gee! I wish I had done that when I had a chance."

Wolf (Whose wanderlust won't die until he does.)

While visiting Salamanca last year, I was sitting in the Plaza Mayor with my husband, having a snack and waxing poetic about the lovely scene around us...the gorgeous yellow-gold light reflected off the walls of the Plaza, the delicate carvings that only seem possible in Salamanca's incredible stone, the funny little vacuum vehicle zipping through the Plaza sucking up any remnant of debris. It was fabulous.

Then we saw a Penn State sweatshirt. Doug jumped up, desperate for someone else to be speaking English, and we offered this guy and his pals a handful of Reeses' Pieces (you would have thought they were solid gold from the reaction we got!). We got to talking, and he and his friends couldn't say enough bad things about Salamanca and Spain.

They hated the food, the rain (last spring was REALLY rainy!), the people, the town--everything except shopping at Zara and hanging out with other Americans. The girls thought that Spanish men were scary (nonsense!)--and giggled in amazement when I told them that I had dated a wonderful Spanish guy (and had fabulous male friends)when I lived in Spain. It was awful. I couldn't imagine how otherwise intelligent people could be LIVING MY DREAM and hating it! Then I remembered a few things about my 1990 semester in Salamanca:

1) being desperate for Oreos, fried chicken, and a bowl of cereal
2) laughing at the clothes that some of our Spanish friends wore
3) taking showers at 4 a.m. because I couldn't sleep with the smell of smoke in my clothes and hair
4) kissing my smoker boyfriend and wishing he didn't
5) longing for those letters and calls from home
6) wondering where the professional women were
7) feeling really embarrassed about my horrible Spanish

Yet I came home madly in love with Spain. I think of it every day, and every trip back has been a slice of heaven. Some of those students might feel this way too, once they are back here, driving from Target to Wal-Mart to K-Mart to McDonald's.

The thing that bothered me about these students was that they weren't LIVING where they were. They didn't make Spanish friends, speak Spanish, eat Spanish food (they were all on their way to an Italian restaurant). They brought whatever of America they could with them, and made fun of the rest.

Maybe that's the challenge that faces all immigrants...having enough of the "old country" to make them feel comfortable, and embracing enough of the "new world" to make them able to stand the inevitable differences.

Tara

Well, my humble input on this issue is: I lived in Madrid for three whole years, mingled with the real Españoles, as we are all originally from Spain, and I had a wonderful friendly relationship with the bosses, never had to carry/prepare coffee or clean kitchens for them, I never felt the difference between my other job here in Miami and the one in Madrid, and another thing, spaniards usually don't mind blacks at all i can assure you this from what I heard from my large Peña de amigos españoles when they were referring to Negros, and on Sundays you can go to the large malls or places like Alcampo and you can find all you need there, I broke an ankle while being there, was taken to the hospital and was given much better care than one time I had to be rushed to the Hospital here in Miami with a horrible case of amigdalitis, so, I guess it's a matter of individual problems, i for sure, was happier there than here, in this crazy boring town that Miami is.

AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE

When I was in Spain from 2000 - 2001, I never experienced any racism. People were always curious as to where I was from. Many Spaniards don't know much about African-American culture as a whole. Since I speak Spanish well many thought that I was from Cuba, the Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico.

I have studied abroad in Spain, Puerto Rico, Guatemala, Costa Rica and Mexico and know what it is like living in another country.

I would recommend that all who wish to live in Madrid remember that it is a different country and you have to take the bitter with the sweet. Whenever something would piss me off I would always go to Retiro Park and walk or go to the gym and lift weights and do aerobics. People must learn to shake the stress off.

I am planning on moving back next year and know what I am in for. I will just make sure to buy an extra pair of walking shoes.

Shawn

Hey everyone,

Sorry to have waited so long to reply... I couldn’t access the thread for a week or so and then I got sidetracked. I really wanted to thank everyone for their time in responding to my monstrous rant. It really helped me get that all out and it helped that everyone who replied was really cool too. I also followed some of the other spin-off threads that came up too, like medical care in Spain and got some great advice that my wife and I were able to use (like checking out the Clinica Belen.)

I think everyone realized that my main point was not that one country is better than another, but it’s about what you’re used to and it takes a lot longer to get used to another culture than you think. Obviously I’m slanted towards the U.S. because that’s where I’m from, but it goes without saying that neither country is perfect. And I definitely should have thought a bit more about bringing up racism since the U.S. has such major problems with it (more of them and more extreme actually). I'm glad to see remarks like those from Shawn above that tell me I'm generally wrong about racism in Spain. I'll try to ignore some of the more egregious expressions (and the Three Kings parade) and keep an open mind.

I really appreciated the comments from people like Diana who have done the same thing as me and survived. It’s nice to know since I'm not going back to the U.S. any time soon because I need to continue adapting to Spanish culture and working on my language skills, etc. And also, generally, if I just said “this place sucks I wanna go home.” I would just be tossing all the weight of adapting to a new culture on my wife’s shoulders and that wouldn't be fair at all. Reading JJP’s comment about his friends from Spain living in the U.S. was a nice insight into the future for me… I can just imagine what my wife is going to be like. It was enlightening to read Fernando’s comments as well since obviously, I don’t bring these topics up very much here in Spain.

Thanks everyone for letting me vent,

-Russ

P.S. Actually - I don’t have a job yet MadridMan. I’m looking into the wild-wooly world of freelancing right now since I did have an offer for a job working independently. It seems like lots and lots of paperwork, but we’ll see. It might be worth it finance wise... I’ll post an article once I know more.

Hey LIM....glad to see/read that you are feeling a little better now that you have vented! What better place to do so than here where you will have lots of people to offer their advice and support...

If the turkeys really get you down, let me know and we will all get together for a cup of coffee (or what ever bebida the tension calls for ) It would be an interesting experience...my husband with his low level English and you with your Spanish!!

Heads up! Spring is coming and it´s beautiful time of year to be in Spain!!

I have read this whole interesting thread, and would say, that after almost 2 years here in Barcelona, my experiences haven't been quite as annoying as Russ', however I do see some common themes.

The smoking of course is true, however this is the same the whole world over and in the States there is an almost Nazi anti-smoking mentality, to where smokers are ridiculed and ostracized. It's a little bit of overkill. Regardless, I don't smoke, but I used to, and I feel that if an area is well ventilated then I have no problem with it. However, the metro is right out folks.

The "Que?" thing is the same the world over, that is the burden of being foreign. My accent is not American but I still get that "Ein? Ej?" sometimes. Mainly on the phone. And work environments, well, work sucks. I came to Spain to get a masters degree and do a complete career change for that reason, that office work is always crap (my jaded opinion). And yeah the pay is lousy but it works out for me, I live better than in NY.

The healthcare system has struck me as good, I have seen some other countries' hospitals and they were kind of sketchy. I had to take a family member to the emergency room here once and the place was fine. But then again I don't have a baby on the way and haven't a clue about how US hospitals deliver them - I was surprised to read that it is so 'natural and confortable' - I thought it was just in a hospital room and that's that. If you want the best then get a Sanitas policy and go to a private hospital.

The racism is important to put into context, such as if Moroccans started moving into Ottuma Iowa en masse. People take a while to get accustomed to the 'different.' In NYC we could give a hoot about where someone is from. It's a destination. Here, Spain has always been a place from which people have emigrated. Now, it's also a destination and the people are dealing with immigration. Not to mention that the society in has advanced 50 years in 25, as in 1975 the country was still in the 50s, which explains the sexism, however from what I have seen Spanish women are quite adamant about their rights and do not take much @#&!

If someone has lived their whole life in a place then living somewhere else is always a trial. My sister tried to move to Seattle and couldn't stand it. I lived in Florida for 5 years and it was dreadful. We have a 'base' from which we build our expectations and when we live somewhere else it is a disruption.

In conclusion, one must weigh heavily a move to another country. It starts out enchanting, and then moves to annoyance, and finally to acceptance. But it's an experience which will change your life fundamentally for the better.

Here are my thoughts on a few of the complaints that people have talked about.

Smoking
Lost - coming from Cali, you are very spoiled in having smoke free environments. In one county they just passed an ordinance that you can´t smoke within 20(?) ft. of a door to a public building or resturant. This is for OUTSIDE the building. How about this for rediculous.

Racism
In California a relatively liberal state, look at who are the cooks, who work in the fields, look who is doing the manuel labor. Virtually all are mexicans. And so with the spanish unemployment like it is, I can´t imagine that the african immigrants would get any better type of job. You will see africans climbing up in society after they have been here a few generations, just like what is happening in the US with Latinos. About the blackface, they haven´t had blacks around for the parades, so what should they have done? In the US it was done as sort of a parady of blacks, but in spain it is done more as a costume.

One problem I have with Lost´s coment was about ADSL. I can´t say that it is better there. Maybe worse. A family friend ordered DSL for his business. Two months later he got a phone call from the phone company asking how he liked his service, the problem was that it still wasn´t installed! A month later they finally put it in. Or what about all the @home customers that had their service interupted, had their e-mail addresses changed and had their terms of service changed. My parents had a problem with their phone line so the phone company had to dig up the backyard putting in a new one. They left a big hole for two weeks until they called and had to remind them that they didn´t finish. Not to mention the phone service going on and off a few days at a time for a month. There are problems with every phone company, not just Telefonica or those in spain.