BEWARE OF TRAIN STATIONS

Our trip to Madrid, Cordoba, Sevilla, etc was cut short after my son's back pack was stolen in the Atoche train station Madrid. The typical ruse of one guy distracting and the other guy lifting. All camera equipment and laptop and cell phones, . . . you get the picture.
There was no police presence in the station. Actually, we never saw a policeman. The Police Station was locked up tight.
Although this experince certainly colored my views on travel in Spain. In general, we found the Madridlenos to be a unsmiling rather grim group. Give me the surly French any day.

Wow. What an account of your visit to Spain, bigfran. Sorry to hear about the "lifting". That's terrible. I haven't heard these kinds of stories for awhile either. It's true that one must always be vigilant - especially at bus and train stations. So you didn't make file a police report?

Spaniards are UNsmiling. Totally true. But try not to associate the lack of a smile for unfriendliness. It's just not in their culture much to smile - I have to say from experience. They're typically not reared to smile for cameras or be urged to "put on a happy face" as the English and Americans are. I think Spaniards are pretty happy people, in general.

Saludos, MadridMan

You do tend to get a criminal element at transport stations in the cities of Spain (Madrid and Barcelona are perhaps the worst for this). The more we publicise this the better. It's always been this way unfortunately, the difference being the underclass who indulge in this now tend to be migrants (Roumanians or Latin Americans). In the past it was Spanish gypsies or drug addicts. I think there should be big posters at places like Atocha (I remember now my partner had her money lifted there) warning vistors. Shame really - once you get yourself secure in your hostal or hotel generally there's no further problem (so long as you exercise the caution needed for a big city)

open society free society you get all kinds, but in general, Spanish people are very friendly and helpful. I am one but been off from Spain for long periods of time,and visited 50 countries, became citizen of a total of 4, so yes i can tell the difference.
one lifting cannot ruined country or a city, it definitively can ruined your vacation time. I never had a lifting in my life, and been to some pretty tough places. I like the statement "give me the surly French any day" he heh heh no comments...

In my visits to Madrid (and elsewhere) I have found the Spanish to be pleasant, helpful, and caring. Recent visits to London, specifically, do not produce the same result. This only points out that at any time in any place the good may come with the bad. With regards to this sort of advanced pick-pocketing, I see innumerable people in major cities (New York more times than I can count) who simply refuse (either consciously or not) to be alert. Your personal space is something you must always be aware of, and a strange location requires all the more vigilance. So please, pay attention and take responsibility! And be honest with yourself, a single visit to a city is hardly enough to pass judgement on anything, including the crime, the citizenry, and the culture.

Thank you, all, for your comments.
I plan to lick my wounds and go to bed.
By the way, I found all my arrangements through Viator to be very professionally handled.
The private tranfers from and to BCN were disappointing. The drivers did not speak English as promised. The trips back and forth just turned out to be very expensive taxi rides.
Best to all in the new year.

Thanks for sharing your experiences on the board, bigfran, and I'm sorry that you had to cut your trip short. Even if you're not physically threatened, it's frightening to have your valuable possessions taken right from under your nose. A very similar thing happened to my relatives in the Milan (Italy) train station.

As for the Madrid police, I'm sure it was very frustrating not to be able to find anyone to help you. When I was a student there, my friend visiting from another study abroad program had her wallet (with passport, credit cards, etc.) stolen out of her jacket while we were riding on the Metro without her even realizing it. We told some policemen we saw in the train station, and their answer to us was "What do you want us to do? This is Spain." Needless to say that was a frustrating answer! We did file a police report after figuring out where to go and waiting for quite some time. As filbert said, it's good to publicize these events as a reminder to fellow travelers to stay alert.

And, I hope you will consider visiting Spain again in the future despite your initial first impressions. As you can read from the posts on this board, many of us love Madrid and the rest of the country despite any bad experiences we may have had there. It might take some patience to be open to cultural differences (I know it took a long time for me while I lived there!), but once you appreciate the differences as cultural and not as mean-spirited or unfriendly then you can enjoy yourself much more.

Thanks for updating your posts on the other threads, too. It's nice to read your comments after your trip and it helps future travelers to Madrid and the rest of Spain. I hope that despite the theft there were some highlights to your visit.

bigfran,

I can commiserate with you because on my last trip to Spain, I too was confronted with it's criminal element. And even though my life, or my wife's, was not threatened, and what they took was certainly replaceable, it does shade an otherwise unblemished experience I've always had with Spain.

Since 1994, I was always so excited about returning to Spain and did so about every four years, but since my last trip, it just hasn't been a priority in my life. I suppose one of these days I'll lick my wounds, get over it and return, but it seems like it's something I keep putting off.

I did take the time and file a police report like a good citizen of the world hoping that perhaps enough complaints will change things.

bigfan

What happen to you can happen anywhere in the world and not only in train stations. Learn from it and just remember it "can" happen anywhere so always take precautions when you travel.

But I am surprised "Madridlenos to be a unsmiling" statement and MadridMan in agreement. Because I found the opposite when I visited Madrid twice. Maybe they only smile to strangers like me in bars, cafes, restaurants and on the street asking for directions?

I only once had a problem with a Madrilenos yelling at me because I was taking a photo of the ducks he was feeding.

Bill

I have been living in Spain my whole life, nearly 38 years, and I was never assaulted or atacked or robbed.

I only had to bad experiencies with my car.
The first one was three years ago. I parked my car at the car park of a big mall in Valencia city close the "City of Arts and Sciences". There were some suitcases from my friends in the trunk, we opened the trunk door, we took some things from it and left. I am sure that someone was watching us at the car park. A few hours later we came back yet out of the mall we realized that the cases had been stolen.

The second incident was last year in Pozuelo de Alarcón near Madrid. I went to a restaurant to have dinner with friends. When I came back to my car I saw that someone had broken the windows and had taken all the car documents from inside, oh, they stole some cd's too. The problem were the documents, I had to get new ones with lots of burocracy.

In any case, you are right. Crime in Spain has increased the last few years, coincidentally as inmigration did (these two things are not necessarily linked).
There are some gangs of Colombians and Eastern European citizens operating in several Spanish cities, assaulting houses with violence, dealing drugs and stoling cars.

You must allways be carefully about your things when travelling abroad.

I friend of mine visited Prague for holidays four years ago. He was assaulted by two men who threatened him with a knife and took all his money , his camera and his credit cards. But he returned to Prague last year and I am planning Prague as my next holiday destination.

Valenciano

I know you don't mean to but this statement always drives me crazy.

I seem to be careful enough that I've never had this experience before or since, but the level of caution needed to avoid all instances of this kind would put a damper on anyone's vacation.

That is why go to a country in which you must remain hiding in your hotel, racing out only to eat, hopefully at a well-guarded restaurant and not talk to anybody. Who would want that type of vacation? Vacations are for relaxing and discovering new things, not to spend all your time concerned with threats.

I know you mean well, but believe me, the types of crime going on in Spain would be easily cleaned up by a few undercover police around the tourist area and a less than cavalier attitude about tourists being fleeced.

We really don't need to be worried when traveling abroad, dampening our enjoyable experience. Just some basic common sense will go far.

Wrapping your bag around you neck and shoulder (men and women) inside of carrying things in your wallet is a great idea. That's what I do. Never take your hands off your luggage. Whenever I'm on the train or sitting at a restaurant I do take off my shoulder bag and I'll literally attach it to my chair or the chair next to me using a rock-climber's latch (not sure what they're called) and that way I can forget it until the time I leave. A moment's worth of prevention can afford me an hour's worth of relaxation.

I have to say that in the USA we don't have the custom or necessity to guard our things very well. It's pretty rare to encounter a purse snatcher, pick pocket, or someone who'll take you briefcase from under your restaurant table.

Saludos, MadridMan

Gazpacho, I completely agree with you.
Sorry, MadridMan explained much better than me what I tried to say. Thanks MM.

Happy new year!!!

MM .. they are called carabiners

That's it! Thanks, CascadaDuSel! I use the spring-latch ones (style like the yellow one in the image below), wrapping the strap of my bag around a chair and attaching the strap back to itself. It's so fast and easy to use.



Some small bags and carryon bags have detachable shoulder clips at either end. With these, I'll often detach the strap from one end and spider that strap through my other bags and then reattach it to the original clip. That way, if someone trys to lift one bag they'll pull away ALL the bags, causing more notice, of course. I often do this action when sitting and waiting for a bus, train, or even plane if I have more than two bags.

Saludos, MadridMan

I think what you mean is that people from small towns in the US aren't used to taking these precautions. People who live in big US cities with tourist attractions already know all this stuff because it is exactly the same (except much more dangerous and scary, because there are also armed robberies). If anything, I was more careful in my hometown in the US because I didn't want to get aggressively mugged. I never, ever carried a purse there.

Filbert

I was sad to see that you are pointing to Roumanians and Latin Americans as the possible thieves in Bigfran's unfortunate situation. As an international business traveler, and based on the work and research I do for living, I highly encourage you to stay away from naming suspicious specific ethnicities in this board.

One example: in Madrid, I was robbed my digital camera from my roll away bag at Intur Palacio San Martin and it turned to be the doorman that brought up my suitcase to the room, not a Rumanian, not a Latino, not a Gypsy, just a Spanish guy that had no ethics.

epaulino4,

I don't know whether bigfran's assailants were Spanish or otherwise, but mine were definitely non-Spanish, Slavic I believe. I didn't have the peace of mind at the time to ask them their nationality.

In my never to be humble opinion, I believe that the pervasiveness of crime in Madrid is worsened by the immigrant situation. Believe it or not, there was a time when this kind of crime was under control.

Again, I didn't violate any of the "common sense" precautions offered so far on this website and was still stolen from. My point is, once you are targeted, it would take a very fortunate turn of events to escape.

....http://www.trifter.com/Europe/10-Ways-to-Get-Robbed-When-in-Europe.66635

...I thought that some may find this interesting!!

Neddie,
you made the point by reading the comments on the post you had. It can happened anywhere!!!
common sense and knowing your surrounding is still the best solution anywhere.

as to epaulino4 and Gazpacho, I must said, anybody can do these things ,name calling is not needed. That Spain has more crime today than before...yes it is also wealthy than before, I remember those days when there was no phones and roads to travel by car, but dirt roads and calling from the nearby restaurant. I am old enough to know all stages of Spain modern life.
AND
now its better!!!

Where are the crime stats that you are all referring to that show an increase in robbery? I read an article last week that showed that several types of violent crimes declined in Madrid this year, though it didn't include stats for theft and robbery.

madrid3X,

That's the problem with statistics. When tallying oranges, you can rely on last years apple count. An old, old saying here, that is, I heard it a lot when I was still young, "figures don't lie, but liars will figure".

We're not discussing physically violent crimes. Although it seems all crimes imply violence in the form of intimidation, fraud, etc. We're talking about the types of crime a tourist might encounter in Spain.

Bottom line, the quantity or quality of crime in Spain are moot. It's the tolerance of any form or crime that's despicable.

If you read my post, instead of straight away projecting what you think I said... I specifically made the point that it's often (although not always) those at the margins who resort to crime like this. Again I also stressed it used to be Spanish natives (sometimes from the Gypsy community, sometimes drug-addicts) who did the stealing. Now a lot of those at the margins are from EE or LAm descent, and guess what, a small proportion of them end up in criminal gangs. Which is a big shame; for them, (especially) for the victims, and for the reputation of the community they come from.

Not really. You stated that you feel that crime in Spain has gotten worse because of immigration. You don't seem to live here, so I have to wonder just what verifiable facts you are basing the assumption that 1. petty thefts and robberies have increased in Madrid and 2. immigrants are disproportionately responsible for this. When I lived here 15 years ago, pickpocketing was a huge problem, especially at Christmastime. I'm not convinced that it is worse now than it was then.

I enjoy watching this debate unfold. It seems many people have had experience with petty (and other forms) of crime. Consistent with advice above, I have always maintained a certain vigilance and perhaps this is what has preserved and protected me from such incidents. That level of awareness has never hindered my enjoyment of any voyage. In fact, it has enhanced it as otherwise missed details come to the fore.
"A good lookout keeps you off the rocks," a great captain once said. It doesn't imply that he's looking for the rocks, it implies that he's looking for the safe passage through which to steer. Find it, recognize it, and follow it to your next harbor.

By absolute chance I happened upon today\'s Madridiario.es article about crime in Madrid for 2007 from January to November. It stated that 62% of those DETAINED (not arrested or finally charged) were foreigners.

Pickpocking is the second oldest profession. Just look at this painting, The Fortune Teller

Bill

Statistic's can be deceiving MM,especially crime statistic's. What were the extranjero's arrested or interviewed about? I know in the USA many people use arrest or prison statistics to prove immigrant's are responsible for crime but when the statistic for imprisonment for illegal immigration is subtracted the crime rate is about 4% for all other crimes.

Train stations anywhere in the world can be dangerous places for travelers: In NYC's Penn Station my wife made a call from a pay phone using an AT&T Credit Card. Somehow, someone got the CC numbers and, by the time AT&T called me there had been several thousand dollars in calls to places like India and China charged against my account.
So one must be very careful, never letting one's luggage out of sight, not even for a few seconds and not to be distracted from that mission by anything.

Common sense and a bit of luck goes along ways. Had friends lose 600 euros on the Paris metro. Why they carried so much cash is beyond me.

Last year had family visiting and was waiting for the train at attocha and the wife heard rustling in my backpack and turned around and sure enough there was someone going through my pack. Main reason we even caught her was she couldn't believe I had only a newspaper and water in my backpack. It was the ONE AND ONLY time I had my wallet and my camera in my pouch pack!!!

Lucky me

I was robbed on the metro in Madrid - by a Romanian youth .. he reached into my coat pocket and took out my Louis Vuitton coin purse. He handed it off to his buddy who went running out the metro doors when they opened. An old women seated near me got my attention and whispered "chorizo" to me. I turned around and grabbed the guy by his jacket and wouldnt let him leave. My reaction was a total shock to me as I would NEVER have thought I would have done that. I was so mad I started yelling at the guy in English ... something to the effect of how the &^%$#$@@ dare you? - I made such a racket that someone told the driver and he stopped the metro keeping the doors close until the police arrived. They arrested him but my LV coin purse was long gone... I still have the wallet, purse and check book cover but I am missing my coin purse. When they arrested him they found 7 other wallets, ID's and DNI's on him - My favorite part was that when he was handcuffed and being led out of the metro station the thief started to smoke a cigarette... I reminded the cop there was no smoking in the metro and the cop smacked the back of the guys head and his cigarette went flying ... that was the highlight of the experience -.... when I began to giggle the thief looked and me and said "beach" I think he was trying to call me a ***** but didnt have it quite right. About a year later I got a summons to go to court and I did and testified and he was deported. I still have my summons in my scrapbook :-)

...CascadaDuSel....way to go !!...keep up the good work....just one thing missing, you should have kicked him in the 'you know what'.

nice going CascadaDuSel,way to go!!!

one less to worry about in Madrid. Thanks

I was in Madrid recently, I wasn't robbed, but I found it was necessary to carry my bills concealed in my bra!!,
MS FOOTE

CascadaDuSel ... I've been meaning to comment on your post for ages ! Like everyone else I should start by saying well done .. Even though you lost your property the guy was caught and HOW SPANISH was the episode with the cigarette jajaja !
But Madrid is like any major city in terms of petty crime .. My home city of London , Paris ,Moscow , New York etc.... all have their problems .
I've lived in Madrid for 2 years now and had my wallet stolen in Puerta del Sol ... It had about 700 Euros in and credit cards ( I was paying some bills ) . I , stupidly , had my wallet in my back pocket , and though it was hidden by a coat , the thieves managed to swipe it .
I've never had a problem since .
My experience was "good" in that i had to go to a Central police station to report it and , though my Spanish is "ok" , they assigned me an English speaking officer to complete the reports . The police here in Madrid are excellent ( I've had contact with Policia municipal, Cuerpo Nacional de Policia , And the Guardia Civil... ) .
For UK citizens ( and maybe other European Union nations ) , your travel insurance or even credit card insurance should reimburse you a large amount of what you lost ( I got back about 600 Euros of the cash stolen ) . You MUST , however, report the incident to the police immediately you realise what's happened .

That is one for good guys! The word "beach" translates to his worst nightmare when his was kicked out of the country.

Bill

I remember when I was a kid living in Madrid , we were at the jumbo supermarket on pioX11 , and a couple of gypsy kids had been caught stealing . The security guy just picked them upside down and shook them like something out of a cartoon . 25 years later that image is still imprinted on my brain

From my many years of travelling. Railway stations seem to attract of petty criminals. I have seen no statistics showing Spain to be any better or worse. The key anywhere is to be alert.
Cheers Aussieflyer

It's true. You ALWAYS have to be careful, not only in train stations but also, maybe more, in bus stations. I've yet to become a victim of crime in Spain but one unsuccessful attempt was made to take my laptop computer in a bus station bathroom (in Alicante).

I always try to "hook" or "wrap" the straps of my bags around other bags or around some immovable object like a table leg or chair.

Saludos, MadridMan

Joe , we should have MORE of that direct action ! I saw one drunk guy holding up traffic in Bilbao's main street .. The Basque police turned up , shouted at him ( no response ) , knocked him to the ground and dragged him off the road . I like that ! Steve

when in Barcelona 4yrs ago whilst ina restaurant my wife wrapped her bag around the chair leg, and whilst chatting laughing 3 youths sat behind us to have a meal, minuetes later they had cut the strap off the bag and were away luckily she had nothing of value in the bag (although she will tell you differant because all her makeup had gone

Its been almost 2 years since me and my family moved from Madrid to Hawaii, but in the 3 years we lived there, we had several friends get their purses and wallets stolen. My wife was on the METRO and actually caught a womans hand in her purse taking her wallet, after screaming at the woman, she ran off the train at the next exit. We lived in a nice suburb in Majadahonda and several of our friends had burglers either attempt to break in or did break in. One friend had a safe in their Master Bedroom that they kept nothing in, but the thieves spent hours trying to open the safe and did a lot of damage to the room in their attempt. Living here in Honolulu is no different.....Big Cities have big crime problems, just have to be vigilent.

A big safe with nothing in it?

Hmmm, sounds like a great decoy, a deterrent of source, if only rigged to summon the cops it'd be an ideal trap.