More explosions reported... by ETA of course

Someone alerted again Gara newspaper that there were bombs placed in Ávila, Valladolid, León, Santillana, Ciudad Real, Alicante y Málaga.

Six of them have exploded already.

Today is the "Día de la Constitución" or the day in which we celebrate the approbal of our Constitution of 1978, thus, the day in which our current democratic regime started. It is a national holiday and people usually go on vacation (because also the 8th is a holiday).

ETA wants to demonstrate its strenght by placing these bombs in all these places.

What it really demonstrates is tha:

1. ETA has not enough explosives due to recent police operations (the bombs have less than a kilo of explosive).

2. ETA has not the infrastructure to easily kill their objectives.

3. ETA knows that their actions are unpopular both inside and outside Spain due to current international situation.

ETA is almost defeated by now, no matter they use these small bombs to try to cause panic and terror (which is not being caused) as a means to spread its propaganda.

Fernando

Update: A child and another person have been slightly injured by the bomb in Santillana del Mar. Of the seven bombs, six have exploded (except the one in Valladolid).

Update: The seventh bomb has exploded. No victims reported. The bomb in Santillana del Mar caused slight injuries to a girl and a woman.

Fernando -

Let us all hope and pray your analysis is correct!

Pls take a look at the other post reference this subject - I don't want to post the same question in two threads -

Hi All,

Fernando, I understand and agree with your assessment of the ETA's status, but have to disagree with your analysis of the their future.

If you consider the fact that the ETA has now carried out *two* events, or better put, *11* independant bomb placement and execution procedures, then they are having a pretty successful run! ( i may not have those numbers right. i am adding up the gas station bombings in Madrid, with today's 6 bombs)

My point is that they are not 'running' away from the law, they have only become *bolder,* even though their leadership has been taken apart. That is the genius of the terror organization structure. Some of the top guys get whacked, and new ones roll in to fill in the void.

Also, it is likely that if the ETA cannot procure their own explosives that they will try to procure them from another source, e.i., other terror groups in Spain; like Al-whoever. They have the money and the resources, don't doubt it.

Anyway, that's my 2 centimos.

andrew

You are right megia, but let me point out some things:

1) Police says the bombs where placed by two separated groups (one of two and one of three persons). One placed the bombs of Madrid and the north, and the other the bombs of the south.

2) Each bomb was composed of 200 grams of a common explosive.

Of course they were successful. But it really has no merit to prepare 11 small bombs and place them in non-vigilated places.

More than 30 terrorists have fall after ETA's leaders capture two months ago.

It is not easy for them to recruit new terrorists becuase: they have to train them, and with each new terrorist there is a chance of a new secret agent infiltered.

The rythm in which ETA leaders are captured is steadily increasing, while the strikes at their financiation ways have limited the money they have. In the operation against ETA leaders the police discovered more than a ton of explosives and dozens of fire arms and detonators. And what is more important: lot of documentation and information.

Believe me: they can kill, and will kill if they are able to do so. If they are not killing 40 persons a year is because they really can't.

They will continue to regenerate and will try to kill and make a show of their strenght.

But in the end, the terrorists that placed these bombs and every ETA terrorist will know their ultimate end: the jail.

Fernando

1- False, it's pretty easy to buy explosives in the international market, and ETA's depots have been found with tons of its, so it doesn't seem probable that they are short of them, they are using small amounts because now they are not trying to kill anybody but to show they are in the fight, and they are organized and qualified for this chronometered operations.

2 - This is not only false but also al lie on your part, for you know perfectly well that ETA never tries to kill civilians not related to it's fight, and that's why they warned of the bombs, as usual, in the same place.

3 - ETA always knew their methods are impopular for those who don't know the opression of the Basque country, and it never bother them.

It's people like you that generate false expectatives, like with the unilateral truce by ETA, and then deceive people because they don't come true and blame ETA. Please, don't malke promises that have no fundament, and will only give hope to soome, to learn sourly afterwards it was only imprudent propaganda phrases.

Until there is negotiation nothing will be ended, and the group will soon be as strong as ever with their finance system reinstaurated and new explosives bought or stolen.

That's the reason for which they have killed 400 "civilians", isn't it? Well, we don't want to kill innocents... but who cares if some get killed.

Say what you want and ask for negotiation. In the meantime, we have had two years without assasinations thanks to the current policy, and more than 35 of your recipe with 800 assasinations (with at least three negotiation attemps which resulted in more killings).

Fernando

I said "civilians for short", but, since you use the smallest indefinition to try to rebate me, I'll be more explicit:

ETA doesn't try to kill those NOT INCLUDED in these groups:

- Policemen
- Profesional officers or sub-officers of the Spanish Army or NAvy.
- Politicians who oppose Basque Country independence.
- Reporters or owners of newspapers who oppose Basque Country independence.
- Businessmen who don't pay the "Revolutionary Tax".

This are the main ETA targets, and those not automatically in, because they are soldiers or politicians know they are targets because they have usually been warned by ETA.

This leaves about a 98 or 99% of the spanish population as "non-target" of ETA, and the few (percentually) that have been injured or killed have been so by accidental explosion of a bomb at a wrong time, or as a collateral damage of a bombing of a military van or sth like that.

What I mean is that, if ETA had wanted to kill civilians not involved, we wouldn't be speaking of 800 but of 80.000. But their bases (their supporters) would no longer support them with massive indiscriminated innocent bombings, that's why they don't.

No doubt that dictatorial systems have more facilities for public order through the thorough elimination of all rights of privacy and liberty rights, like PP franquoist did, but it won't solve the problem and also restricted our legal situation to Burundi or Congo level. NO guarantees of democracy or Justice.

Ignacio -

1. The supposed "revolutionary tax" is 100% illegal -in reality the correct term for this "tax" is EXTORTION - and extortion by fear, threats, etc.

2. Reporters are earning a living as are you and I - theier job is to report the news - not to make editorial comments ....

Sorry Ignacio, but that last post needs some clearer thinking of which I know full well you are capable of ...

To be more precise Ignacio: those you mention are specific targets of ETA's terrorists, but they don't mind if someone else is catched in the bomb blast.

Poor excuses for cruel assasins.

Fernando

The following is a link from BBC re the Spanish press coverage on ETA's actions - in English

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4075473.stm

Yes - the exerpts are quotes and not in full context - but check the variety and political stance of the papers as well as their locations

Does a bomb placed in el Corte Inglés count for the "98 or 99% of the Spanish population as "non target" of ETA?"

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/06/21/spain.blast/

Cogito cogito ergo sum cogito

Well, guys, my time is limited, not that I can't or don't want to answer, but I am alone here and you are several.

Puna:

Reporters and judges, and politicians, they are all working, and soldiers and policemen too.

But all those dead were activelly fighting the liberty of the basque country to have the chance to self determine it's future. The newspapermen dead were not the kind that report news, but those that form opinion with articles as biased as Fernando posts. Don't forget that Press is the Fourth Power.

Fernando:

Everybody cares for the dead, but not so much not to fight your enemy. Ask any soldier, guerrilla fighter, terrorist or mafia member. Armed actions are like that: You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. The difference is how many eggs you break. If you break two, you are trying to make an omelette, whereas if you break 2.000 you are simply destroying as many eggs you can.

Pingüino:

When I said 98- 99% I was speaking of people who are not targets. These people at El Corte INglés were warned in advance, so they were NOT the targets.

The problem is that we are not breaking eggs, but killing, injuring or mutilating people who have mother, father, sons and family.

Fernando

As Fernando said, it's about families. I have a particular interest in that Corte Ingés bombing: my daughter and niece (both 15 years old) were in that building that day. Fortunately, they left around 30 minutes before the bomb was detonated.

Warning or not, had they been killed, would I have received any condolences by those who placed the bomb? Or would the death of these two girls have been considered as a regretable but necessary casualty of war?

What is more, does the demolition of the property someone else justify the means to an end? Ever?

Cogito cogito ergo sum cogito

I think my main problem with the terrorist organisation is this quote (provided by Ignacio, but representative I believe of supporters of ETA)

On what basis should a legal government negotiate with gangsters/killers? In the Basque Country there is an autonomous government, with more powers than most in the Spanish constitution. I'm given to understand there has NEVER been a majority vote for the political viewpoints shared by ETA, either for the Basque government or for the central government. I understand that at most 20% have voted for extreme parties there.
ETA's position seem to be similar to a gang that say extorts money in a big city. Then the local police try to stop their activities. Various businesses are destroyed; a few people (not too many so as not to appear too bad) are killed. The gangsters then let it be known "negotiate with us on how much we are allowed to extort, and these attacks and killings can stop for a while"
I can see no government that could 'negotiate' under these terms...

Fernando,

I think you are right... Your analysis, as usual, is very good. And I must say, even though it's been said before, your English skills are outstanding!

I had a chance to speak to a buddy in Ciudad Real about the situation, and I think you are right. The bombs were essentially placed in what amounts to isolated and unfrequented 'bathrooms.' But I still find the sophistication of the exposive devices, which were used to detonate 'firecrackers' ( petardos), to be of interest. Those same detonators can be used to set off 2000 grams, as well as 20 grams, of explosive. ( let's hope it's not 'ecco goma 2')

Seems like the moral of the story is that the people of Spain should really be ( and are) annoyed and fed up with this from the ETA. Not only have the ETA killed many over the years, but they have been known to negotiate who they will and who they will not menace; including a negotiation to not mess with Catalunia.

So now the ETA decide to 'afront' Spain on the day of their constitution's enactment. That's like an attack on the 4th of July for us.

Anyway, there's more to come. I just wish that Zapatero, albeit half-smirking as usual, would simply let his best intel and special forces people loose on the ETA, no holds bared!

I love how the media here made it sound like another 11M. It sort of irks me, but I should know better than to put much stock into the hype that is the media!

I'm *VERY* happy that nobody died in the 'attacks.'

andrew

[my edit]
ps> thanks for the great link, Puna!

Thanks megia

I still have to learn much to have a good command of english though

I'm also very happy that noone got killed. Let's hope no more people die in the future. I'm sure that all ETA terrorists will end in prison.

Fernando

Megia writes

How sadly true - ETA's choice of dates was totally calculated to garner coverage and comments as well as being a monumental slap in the face to everything Spain has been able to achieve since the death of Franco ... including the freedom for all political views and stances to be discussed openly.

From the way this is written it sounds like Ignacio is endorsing this sort of criminal activty. He compares the ETA to military operations. Military personell wear very distinct uniforms that even show their rank. Their leaders are known to one and all. Journalist and columnist are exercising thier rights to self expression under the law. The death penalty without due process is against the law. His whole argument makes it sound as though he agrees with this sort of cowardice activity. What realy astounds me is he seems to not have a problem with the extortion of the small business owners with the "revolution tax." I think that his pain medication is having an adverse effect on his reasoning.

Although I agree with most of DD's points here, I wish he hadn't brought in a personal remark about Ignacio's health. It's a fairly volatile subject anyway. Can we keep personal attacks out of this (even faced with objectionable viewpoints)?

I will not ask any questions, Filbert, I am just sorry to hear about it.

As my father, an ex-ARMY drill seargent would say, Ignacio seems 'BIG enuff and UGLY enuff to take care of himself...' Of course since I grew up with that I see it as something a loving father would say, so please don't be offended, Ignacio.

Yes, Puna, it seems like the firecrackers going off on Spain's Constitution Day by ETA is a little bit of:
a.) a cry for attention, and
b.) a slap in the face to the people of Spain that want to be rid of tools like the ETA

But Fernando, with the *heavy* and *excessive*, yes I'm being sarcastic, sentences imposed by the strict Spanish legal system, those ETA guys will get 2 whole years in prison, no? They'll be back out in a handful, at most, years, creating the sames probelms as before... Can you explain to us how that works in Spain?

It's ALWAYS about families, in EVERY aremd conflict, be it a war, guerrilla figtings ot terrorist bombings innocent people die. There were regretable casualties of war in Irak and in Jugoslavia, and everywhere. The difference is that ETA takes more risks, to reduce the innocent casualties to the minimum, not like the USA or any other terrorist organization, guerrilla or army. Will the americans give condolences for their 100.000+ killings of mostly innocents in Irak, plus many times this amount injured or handicapped, and millions of unemployed by the bombings, with it's families suffering hunger?

It's amazingly hypocritical that terrorist governments that massacre, denounce terrorist bands methods. Maybe they don't want competitors? Would be laughable if it wasn't cryable. What moral authority do you (or any) have to criticise that if they have supported Bush after their slaughter, for example?

Representative of anybody who knows the reality of the conflict. There is a reason to fight, wrong or not. And there was a goal: independence, that was lowered by ETA later in good-will, to self-determination. This means that they didn't demand inmediate independence, but a referendum for the basque on their future, and taking to practice the results. ETA won't surrender after fighting about 25 years, for peanuts, all the effort would have been lost and their lifes would have had no meaning, that's all.

This is not an unreasonable petition, but the Government feels usually strong to be too proud, and when they feel weak, they don't really have what to offer, for most of Spain is fundamentalist of the Unity of the State, and people would riot.

That "autonomous government" is nothing but a puppet. A proof is that, when the PP government and the Basque "Autonomous" government disagreed in about 30 million euros of the basque quota (extortion?), the PP GOvernment said they were going to reduce the power of that "government". It's just a local administrator of the occupation forces, a Vichy.

The basque parliament has ALWAYS been from 50 to 66% or more, composed by nationalist parties, although it's true that only about a 15% or 18% "admit" (don't condemn, given circumstances) ETA's methods.

DD:

I do not endorse any criminal activity. I am just showing you that it's as criminal as the others that are legal:

Tell about the death penalties and jurys to the dead by USA bombers or the Serbian tanks. It's all the same sh*t. The one who has the power and the guns uses it instead of negotiate and consult the people's wishes. What's bad about a referendum in the basque country and the independence if approved? Nothing, but the Government has the guns and because "spanish nationalist" regions are more and more populated, they have also the parliament power.So, how can we win independence, in case we want it?, I say that because I haven't make up my mind in case it came, and in case o be given the possibility to select, I don't know which side of the border I would stay.

That's for those who call me all but terrorist. I am not defending terrorism, not even independence. What I am defending is that a nation like the basque should have the right to decide it's destiny legally and that I can not blame those who fight for it with guns since legally it's denied to us. You would still be a part of England if you hadn't rebelled.

I don't take pain medication except aspirines but for very exceptional cases. I don't like excesive medicines. Very funny your usual jokes, but no.

Thanks, Filbert.

Megia, Thanks equally. I know you don't mean "let him alone, don't intervene while we fight him dirty" That would be under your level.

Hell's Bells! Bu$hitler = Bad. ETA = Good. I didn't ask who was right and I sure as hell didn't ask for a lesson on the morality of armed conflicts. I asked if I would have recieved any condolences from the great minds of ETA if my daughter and niece had been killed.
Yep, I can see it now...they planted the bomb in the Corte Ingles, gave fair warning, and then met in some tasca to give each other the "high-five" sign and congratulate themselves over their brilliant tactical offensive against Madrid.
As for the moral authority...I never presumed to have any. I'm not God. Are you? So...if my daughter and niece had been killed, what would have happened?

Cogito cogito ergo sum cogito

What about the nieces and daughters of those your army bombed in Irak, did you or did the USA army send a note of condolence?

To compare the soldiers of the American Revolution to the ETA is one more example of your convoluted thought process, Ignacio. The over whelming majority of the population in the American colonies wanted independance from England. This does not appear to be the case in the Basque region of Spain. You have also made some other comments that lead me to beleive you endorse the activities of the ETA.

There was no doubt as to who the leaders of the American Revolution were and to their where abouts during the revolution. Most died in poverty or were executed when they were found by the British. I might add that they affixed their signature to a paper know as the "Declaration of Independance." Which was delived to the king of England. Have any members of the ETA signed such a document and deliverd it to the King of Spain????? As bad as I hate to admitt it the colonist were aided in gaining independance by the French. Possibly the last time a French soldier fought and did not get his ass kicked.

I live in a part of the US that was at one time controlled by Spain, then Mexico. None of the changes of power and control were the result of war, and certainly not "terrorist acts."

You seem to feel there is not difference between military operations and terrorist acts. Most rational people would disagree. Militaries operate in the open, terrorist operate in the shadows.

Just remember, "a coward dies many deaths, a brave man only dies once."

Ok, guys, I am kind of exhausted and stresed. I can not answer lots of threads at the same time, I won't sacrifice 6 dayly hours of my free time, and I won't do it at work even if I have free time because it could give me bad reputation.

Time for a vacation from the forum. Enjoy! See you soon!

As Plato once said: you are correct in your beliefs...but you still haven't answered my question. I don't think you can or ever will.
But, good luck on your vacation, though. I suppose a rest from us crypto-fascist war-mongering red-state neanderthals will do you some good.

Cogito cogito ergo sum cogito

Maybe hes gone to the gas station.

I can't help but feel relieved, though, that the ETA are so thoughtful in planning their terrorism. Uh, how humane.

steven77

gazpacho,

Ditto that. Especially when no one has the...shall we say the testicular fortitude to explain why two fifteen year olds need to be sacrificed for the glorious revolution. Then again, defending these scumbags can certainly cause exhaustion and stress.

Cogito cogito ergo sum cogito

It is obvious from the post of one particular member of this board that he has no problems with terrorist activities. That person would be well advised to remember this is not a secure board and is open for one and all to read. It should be assumed, that it is read and monitored by law enforcement personell and intellegence personell from many different countries, to include both Spain and the US. For someone to get on here and admitt that he is from the northeast section of Spain, then go on to endorse the conduct of the ETA leaves to wonder what that person is thinking, and are we dealing with a rational person. The location of persons posting are not annonimous and can be easily tracked down by anyone who so desires to do so. Then to go on and make comparison between the ETA and American revolutionaries has to be the most ludicrous thing I have read on this board so far. Still giving this person the benefit of the doubt and mentioned that it may be his pain medication, which offended some other members, he respondes that he is not on medication and only takes aspirin. This goes to show that he is of sound mind when making these comparisons and endorsements of this criminal activity. I don't know about the rest of you, but I want nothing to do with someone who defends the acts of terrorist and criminals. I wish him no ill will and hope he is feeling better, and does not have to undergo surgery. As far as I am concerned he has nothing to say, and I will not respond to his post again.

Desert Dweller,

Yeah, Ignacio can be a little, well maybe very, frustrating, but he is entitled to an opinion on this board. I like hearing what people from other cultures have to say as long as I can respond to them. When I first started reading posts on this board, I was blown away by some very disturbing remarks, of the liberal persuation, not by our Spanish members.

It is clear to me that Ignacio is exposed to a lot of liberal ideas which he doesn't really challenge and he's comfortable with. I suppose we're all guilty of not challenging ideas we are comfortable with. It doesn't bother me that he feels the way he does as much as I believe that way too many Americans sympathize with his ideas. That does bother me. They have lived in this great country and have benefited from this greatness, indeed, witness it's greatness and still feel that we must be doing something wrong. And why wouldn't they when all they fill their minds with is the crap on the 25-inch peephole into paradise? To accept what we see in our media uncritically is just stinkin' thinkin' and ingratitude for the people that worked, fought and died to bring us this great blessing.

Even though Ignacio says things that are very irritating, please don't go after him personally. I have great faith in reason and it's overwhelming affect on an intelligent mind.

Now let's discuss the Iraqi "freedom fighter". This begs the question, freedom from what? Freedom from democracy, equality for women, education, economic progress....in short freedom. Freedom from freedom. Well yes, I'd fight to the death if there was another culture trying to impose these ideas on my country. Especially if I've been living under tyranny for the last thirty years, oh hell, forever.

Yup, I'd have to stand up for my right to see my daughter or wife raped in front of me, my sons tortured and killed, my countrymen gassed. I'd be so indignant. Well, who are these arrogant freedom lovers who want to impose their values and blessings on me? The nerve!

Having had conversations on many occasions with the "one member of the board who 'has no problems with terrorist activities'" I can see why he gets frustrated posting here.

From pinguino: I got into trouble years ago now for posting and trying to show the other side of the coin. I was labeled a terrorist, sympathizer, etc. The point of rational dialogue is not be antagonistic but to look at both sides and form your own educated opinion.

Unfortunately, everytime this topic is broached, it deteriorates into "me vs. you" and no one wins.

The quote above is evidence of a person who has no concept of the "two sides to the story" idea. Ask a member of ETA or even a radical HB or some PNV and you'll find those who believe that the government in Madrid is neither legal nor virtuous. Even many who are not involved militarily in this feel this way. A cursory study of Basque history will show you why this school of thought is common.

To a separatist, Madrid [or was it Henry IV of Navarra...or Fernando I of Aragon...or Carlos V, HRE...] illegally annexed the Basque region and broke its word repeatedly. For centuries, a willingness to uphold the fueros of Basques was sworn at Gernika, cooperation in time of need was promised in return.

Amongst a conquered people, you will always find those who will not assimilate or capitulate [and in the case of Iraq, some people who will ship themselves in from abroad and pass themselves off as dissenters! ].

Old wounds run deep and heal slowly. The Spanish central government for decades deprived the Basques of all freedom to express what it is to be Basque. Basques felt compelled at the close of the civil war to ship their children al extranjero in order to keep them safe. Many ended up in the UK, Russia and N. Africa. A generation was nearly lost. True students of history have not let this lesson die and have indoctrinated this to a current generation [called terrorists or fanatics by many].

Additionally, to deny that some involved in the American Revolution have nothing in common with some involved in the ETA struggle is to tell me it's dark when the lights are on. To the English monarchy in 1775, America was a breakaway "semiautonomous region" that needed to be reigned in. Chechnya anyone?

The fact that the outmanned, outgunned and outclassed American colonists had some incredible French help and good fortune [some say divine intervention], means that we as Americans today have the freedom to say that we were different when we stood up to the central government and took to armed struggle to meet our objectives. Guerrilla warfare, before the term was coined, essentially won the American Revolution. We had no business beating the most powerful army and navy in the world, but we did.

If you can't see the parallel in the two struggles, whether or not you agree with the motive or not, then you should either visit your optometrist or get laser surgery.

Do I advocate terror? Do you? What side would you have taken in the American Revolution? Would you have opted for continued taxation without representation? Would you have allowed your voice to be continually squelched?

Take a look at the American Bill of Rights and you'll see what those colonists felt were the injustices perpetrated against them...would you allow that today? If not, you might have more in common with the viewpoint of your basic garden variety etarra than you had originally thought.

I have done my best not to antagonize or resort to name-calling here. Just offering an additional point of view to what's already been expressed. Here's to hoping that the "tit for tat" form of debate will die and dialogue will return. Let's do it for MadridMan.

Bravo CaliBasco,

Very nicely put and true. As a matter of fact, I was quite surprised to find out only recently, that America, that is the British subjects living in present day U.S., had very few grievances actually. Especially compared to the way the English were treating people living in England. The whole war was about, perhaps an irrational idea even, we wanted our independence, plain and simple. True, there was taxation with very little representation, but that could be said of our current government as well.

I personally sympathise with the Irish in the Irish-England struggle. The English treated them horribly throughout history. The only problem is, it's way to late for Ireland to ever redress it's grievances against England. So what is the excuse for the violence if not to settle old scores? In the same manner, do the ETA really think that Spain is so weak a government, that violence can persuade the government to give up some of it's territory?

Calibasco,

Sorry, but that wasn't my quote. But let me state for the record that I had lived nearly 3.5 years in Vitoria and have spent the most memorable times of my life there. I have been to the oak tree in Gernika, which was a wonderful experience. In short, I have a tremendous respect for the Basques and their history.

Now, in regard to the other matter. I despise militants and abhor violence. I don't care how righteous or correct a person's cause may be, but if it threatens the lives of any member of my family in any way, then it's (as they say) all bets are off. I have a great deal of respect for men like Ghandi or Martin Luther King who achieved their objectives through effective non-violent measures than I do for some fool with a bomb.

The welfare and safety of wife and daughters means more to me than any revolution, political cause, social cause, or religious dogma. And why? Because as a very wise man once said: "No other success can compensate for failure in the home." If any finds that offensive, then I don't care. When it comes to my family, I offer NO apologies.

Furthermore, Calibasco, while we may not agree on certain things, I do respect, sir, your intellect and sense of humor.

Cogito cogito ergo sum cogito

Well put, Calibasco! A neutral and interesting view of the conflict...errrr...NO!
It's an idealistic view that does have nothing to do with the real situation of the Basque Country.
It's easy to think that way if you live in California and have only heard ONE side of the so called conflict.
You say that we have to see both sides of the issue when you only can see one side.
I am basque, I have lived there, I have knowledge of both sides.
And I can tell you that currently the only oppresion suffered in the Basque Country comes from the terrorist group ETA and all who support them.
You know some stories from the past. Yes, there were decades of oppresion by fascist General Franco, an oppresion that was suffered by ALL Spain, not only the Basque Country.
Basque culture was represed, as well as Catalan or Galego.
When ETA was born, it had sense, but when democarcy returned to Spain it lost ALL sense, and many historical ETA leaders turned into democratic party representants. That was the way it had to be.
Now ETA has to die, it has no place in our country. The Basque Country is nearly independent, it's the most independent region of Europe.
ETA is plainly and simply a terrorist and criminal band and should be stopped the way it's being done. And I can see the end nearer now.

CaliBasco - I, for one, was wondering when your logical mind would enter into this fray - glad to see you back!

deibid - I have many friends who are Basque or who's immediate family are Basque as well as friends who's families have lived in the area for generations - and your comments mirror the feelings I have heard expressed over the years. Thank you!

And finally, once again, let us be dignified and respectful enough to keep a person's health OUT of the conversation ...

CaliBasco: Again I say it is silly to compare the ETA to the American revolutionaries. The colonist had wide spread support among the population after only a few years. The ETA has apparently only a few in their band of thugs and have been doing this sort of conduct for forty years and still no wide spread following. Everyone knew who the Americans were that were demanding indepnedance. The ETA works in the shadows. The Ameircans delivered the Declaration of Indepnedance to the King of England knowing full well the consequnces. The ETA has never delivered such a document with signatures to Franco, King Carlos, or anyone else of authority. That comparison is nothing more that grasping at straws, to justify an unjustifiable position.

If they truly have a legitimate complaint, then why do they operate with masks on in all the photos of the operatives? Why have they never identified themselves? Why don't they have wide spread support among the population of the region?Why have they never complained to the UN? Why have they never deliverd a declaration of independance to anyone of authority? I notice they waited until the spineless little weasle Zapatero was in office to increase their activity.

Just dropped by to see the reactions and bashing that would follow.

Not dissapointed.

Thanks, Cali, but it's no use.

DD. You are so wrong in so many things, ..., and you can't handle parallelisms, it seems, for the resemblance is super obvious. I guess if you look at documents of that centuries in British papers they called Americans the equivalent to terrorists: assasins, looters, killers, brigands, gangs, ... It's winning what made your fight different.

Ah! And ETA delivered to everyone who wanted to read it it's proposal: KAS alternative.

Bye

I am sick and tired of hearing about ETA and the IRA in Northern Ireland and their wailing and whining about wanting democracy and freedom.
The people have it in their own hands, they can go forward and build something of their region, basqueland and northern ireland are not nowadays depressed, they are thriving and prosperous areas with real potential for industry and tourism. the only thing that holds them back are the cowards, the playground bullies, the barroom bull****ters, who have a hold on their own people, who hang on to the past because if the past is left behind, as it must be, there is no need for them and no need for the bomb or the bullet. Stop blaming the past or Madrid or London,Go forward! esta en sus manos!

Steven77: Very well put. Some people are always looking back and "hanging on to use to be." There is a reason that an automotive engineer designs a car so that the windsheild is 100 times larger than the rear view mirror. He wants you to be looking forward 100 times more than looking back. My mother's own ancestors the Cherokee Indian tribe, were forcefully moved from their land in the southern part of the US. None of the tribal members are rehashing something that happened 150 years ago and cannot be changed now. We look forward, and move on, make the laws at hand work to our advantage. The majority of the Basque are hardworking peace loving people that have adapted to the life at hand. The ETA is now nothing more than a band of punks that operate in the shadows and hope that nobody finds out who they are.

Desert Dweller,

My ancestors were also in the Trail of Tears. They were settled in Western Kentucky.

I have just come back for a 5-day trip in France and I found it very illustrating. Some people should really move around to keep things in perspective.

France is a centralist republic, which means that its territories have not any kind of autonomy. The state is the center of the democracy.

The Basque Country has never been independent (Navarre was for centuries, the Basque Country was another territory of Castilian Kingdom from its born) nor has never been an occupied territory or a colony (opposite to the US, which was a colony of Britain).

A hundred years ago basque nationalism was born. During this time, basque nationalists invented a flag (which is equal as UK flag with basque typical colors) and managed to exterminate any cultural diversity found on the basque language (which was composed by dozens of basque dialects, almost one in every valley). Basque nationalism was officially pursued by Franco's Dictatorship though he granted the Basque Country a main industrial prominence in Spain. ETA was born at first to fight the dictatorship, though it evolved to a cruel terrorist band in the last years of the dictatorship.

With the beginning of spanish democracy in 1978 a decentralization started, and the Basque Country was granted the status of an autonomous community in our Constitution (1978) and its "Estatuto de Autonomía" (1978). For the last 26 years consecutive spanish governments deepened in autonomism. Now most decissions are taken in the Basque Parlament, which can also dictate almost all kind of laws, concerning subjects like education, fiscality, health care, traffic regulation, infrastructure building,... They have also an own police.

The only subjects specific of the central government are defense (army), airports and seaports, and the public health system. Nowadays, the Basque Country has the deepest autonomy of all Europe, no matter there are other regions which have more deeper historical reasons to have an autonomous status (länder in Germany, regions of France like Burgundy, former kingdoms of Italy like Naples or Venetia, Wales and Scotland,...).

The problem is that without a permanent claim for more autonomy is the main argue for nationalists in Spain, and the limit for autonomy has been reached.

ETA is not a liberation movement and has nothing to do with the independence of USA:

• The Basque Country is not a colony nor has never been occupied. Its citizens have the same rights as any other citizen in Spain.
• The Basque Country has a deep and ample autonomy with an own parlament, government and judge system.
• ETA has not the democratic legitimation to fight for independence. Its support is, in the best case, a 20%.
• ETA is not only trying to impose independence in the Basque Country, but the annexion of neighbour territories and the constitution of a marxist-leninist regimen in which basic rights would not be respected. And it's doing it by violent, criminal and cruel ways directed towards spanish authorities and their own fellow citizens.

Current basque nationalists seek independence not only of the historical basque provinces (Guipúzcoa and Vizcaya) but other territories like Alava (which was integered in the Basque Autonomy in 1978 due to historical ties with the other basque provinces), the Condado de Treviño (a territory which has never been part of the Basque Country), Navarre (a neighbour region) and the french Department of Western Pyrenees. Support for independence in these regions is testimonial, but basque nationalists try to impose their independence from France and Spain nevertheless.
Conclusion: The Basque Country has a deep autonomy from the central power in Spain, basques have their rights recognized and respected in our constitution and our laws. Basques agreed their former status as an autonomy community in 1978 by massively voting for the Constitution and their "Estatuto de Autonomía" (statute of autonomy). Nationalists can defend their political positions democraticly and peacefully.

But ETA tries to impose their alleged objectives disregarding what basques think, by violent and criminal means, and with the side purpose of making non-nationalist basques to emigrate from the Basque Country in order to achieve a kind of "idological cleansing".

Fernando

Absolutely false all from the third paragraph on.

Basque separatism has existed since we were invaded centuries ago. Nationalism existed since the beginning of the vasque as a nation, because that's what we are.

Navarra has been independent until it was invaded by Spain 500 years ago.

The rest is just as false as the commented.

Fernando, you are just like Aznar. No matter how proofs are brough to show you're lying you keep all the same telling the same tale and culd convince somebody unaware of your behaviour.

The Basque Country has never been invaded.

Navarre has never been invaded by Spain. It was annexed to the Castilian Kingdom in 1515. It existed as an independent kingdom from 852 to 1515 a.C.

I'm eager to read your arguments if you have any (I doubt it).

Fernando

PD: Thanks for comparing me with Aznar, I think he has been the best governor in centuries.

Nice try, Fernando. We have debated this a hundred times and a hundred times I have unveiled your lies.

Do I need to do it again or you are just bold enough to spread that bullsh*t again when you know I am connecting very few because I am getting too stressed?

If anyone wants info on Navarra kingdom, he can make a quick search in this forum, where I have found 87 entries on Navarra, many of them on it's history , at least 10 by me (and unfortunately by you).

Here are just some:

Just one

In Spanish

Another

A thread with a book on it\'s history

thread

You won't steal my time by now, don't try.

For those who don't want to read your lies too, here is a link (in english to a encyclopedia):

Encyclopedia: History of Navarra, the Ba...asion by Spain.

The History of the kingdom and it\'s struggle amid Castilla (would be Spain) and France.

Sorry for the misappropriation of quote credit, Pinguino...honest mistake...as for respecting my intellect, I'm flattered...as for my sense of humor, you're one better than my wife. When I'm in Florida, I owe you a "bebida."

BTW: I've also spent time amongst the "oaks" in Gernika...both the tronco and the new arbola. I've lived amongst the Basques and have married one [thank God...that means roast lamb dinner on a regular basis!] How fortunate we both have been...

From deibid:
Check out some of my other close to 1500 posts...you obviously do not know who I am or what my experience has been, novato.

I've had Basques, on a regular basis, comment to me that I know more about their history than they do. I'm no run-of-the-mill American with a keyboard. Do I have to give you street addresses and dates to "prove myself worthy" of commenting here? Ever hung out on c/San Francisco with the political riff-raff and asked what they think? Ever have a discussion with someone who gets their news from a source other than El Pais? I think I have both sides, amigo.

Speaking of El Pais, to equate the horror perpetrated against the Basques with the Gallego experience during the dictadura/dictablanda is sheer heresy. How many gallegos spent time in prison or were executed for their anti-opression cultural conservation rhetoric? How many Basques were part of Franco's ruling elite? Would adding both those numbers give you a sum of zero?

Since "el caudillo" was from Ferrol, the gallegos were hardly "repressed" as you put it. What did Franco do, squelch using the term "Sant Yago" and change the name to "Santiago?" Oooooh...help! help! I'm being repressed!

Ever sat down with mothers of men in prison for "crimes" against the state and listened to their stories? These are not etarras, they're kids who ended up in the wrong place at the right time and because their surname has a "tx" in it, they're held without trial as long as "deemed necessary" by the government. Any "Ferreiros" in political prison in their "own" country?

Desert Dweller: The American Revolutionaries would've operated behind masks as well had they lived in the days of surveillance and CNN. A few well-placed musket shots to the "ringleaders" as seen on surveillance may have thwarted [or at least postponed] the American Revolution. To draw parallels is to do just that: draw parallels. It is not to condone or agree with either or both. Relax...no one will think any lesser of you. I won't, anyway...

Please,man, don't get so pissed off at me.
I have not been disrespectful to you and I'm no 'novato', I have read your posts. Tranquilo, hombre.

And I repeat all I said the other day, word by word.
You have an idealistic view of the basque situation and you are talking about stories from Franco dictatorship that have nothing to do with today's actual situation.
And speaking of Franco, please! all democratic Spain was oppresed during his dictatorship. It is really offending that you deny that the Galegos were oppressed as well. Franco was a fascist dictator, and YES, many galegos were imprisoned or executed during his regime. How naive!

And yes, you are quite nicely sitting in front of your computer in California instead of suffering every day the 'conflict'.
I never doubted your knowledge of the Basque Country, you don't need to give any street address, I understand that you may have had some txikitos aroud Somera street and you may even know bar Kantabriko and have tasted some pintxos at Victor Montes.
That's not the issue.

When you ask me if 'I ever have...' you are doing the very same thing that you acuse me of. Yes, I have 'ever' because I have both sides IN MY FAMILY. I have relatives who are menaced by ETA and have to exile to Mexico. I have relatives who support ETA and go to demonstrations and feel very happy everytime those 'cabrones' kill a poor policeman. I fortunately don't have any ETA member in my family, but I have friends who do have one. Oh! and I don't read El Pais, I don't care about waht you say about it.

I'm sorry, CaliBasco, but I'm a native Basque and you'll always be a Californian, please don't try to give me lessons, I'm grown up.

Well, I give you my hand and I apologize if I offended you anytime, but I can't change my mind about this.

I'd like to respond to Ignacio about WHAT EXACTLY we are doing in Iraq. Saddam Hussein is responsible for the deaths of over 500,000 Iraqi's and Kurds(That we know of). We went in to take out a tyranical and Mass Murderer leader who had no business leading a nation. No, we have not found any "Weapons of Mass Destruction" but we were still justified in taking this leader out of power. THE INSURGENTS......LET ME REPEAT.......THE INSURGENTS are killing 99% of the innocent Iraqi people, not the American Forces. Yes, a friendly is a mistaken casulaty occasionally, but it is a WAR ZONE and no one is completly safe in a war zone. The U.S. and several other countries have began reopening Schools, Hospitals, Electrical and water plants and trying to rebuild their infrastructure so that the Iraqi people can live in a civilized way and not in bombed out homes with no running water or power. We are not conquerers BECASUE WE INTEND TO LEAVE and leave the country in a lot better shape than we found it. How is the U.S. the bad guys??

Cali the problem is that I have been here during the last 3 years and I have readen many of your posts to perfectly know that you sympathize with basque nationalists and ETA's objectives.

Anyway, it is a common leit-motiv among nationalists to state that Franco's Dictatorship was a regime against catalonian or basques exclusively.

As a dictator, he prosecuted all his political opposition and even part of his political allies. He obviously repressed nationalists because their political ideology was opposite in many ways to his. The use of any language other than spanish (castilian) was officially forbidden (though many people still used their local languages).

And before you call me fascist and make a joke on the press and books I read and the TV I watch (like you have done before in this board) let me tell you that one of my grandfathers was imprisoned in a concentration camp by Franco for four years.

Ignacio: I can't counterargue your inexistent arguments because you have quoted yourself... If you use yourself as a source of "objective" information don't expect me to give you any credit sorry...

Fernando

Caliblasco, have you ever talked to any of the relatives of those killed (21) in the Hipercor (shopping centre) bombings? http://clientes.vianetworks.es/personal/angelberto/hipercor.htm

Have you ever talked to Irene Villa who lost her legs at 12?http://clientes.vianetworks.es/personal/angelberto/irene.htm

Have you ever talked to the parents of any of the following children?

ALFREDO AGUIRRE BELASCOAIN/ 1985. Tenía 14 años cuando una bomba-trampa colocada en un portal en Pamplona sesgó su vida.

DANIEL GARRIDO VELASCO/ 1986. Murió en San Sebastián al estallar una bomba colocada en el techo del automóvil en el que viajaba con sus padres, que también perdieron la vida. Tenía 16 años.

SONIA CABRERIZO MÁRMOL/ 1987. Víctima, con 15 años, del atentado de Hipercor (Barcelona).

SUSANA CABRERIZO MÁRMOL/ 1987. Hermana de la anterior, de 13 años, murió en la misma explosión.

SILVIA VICENTE MANZANARES/ 1987. Murió con 13 años, también en Hipercor, el atentado, hasta ahora, más sangriento en el historial de ETA: 21 muertos.

JORGE VICENTE MANZANARES/ 1987. Hermano de la anterior, tenía nueve años. El coche bomba de Hipercor se cobró la vida de cuatro niños.

SILVIA PINO FERNÁNDEZ/ 1987. Ella, con siete años, y sus padres fallecieron en el atentado contra la casa cuartel de la Guardia Civil de Zaragoza.

SILVIA BALLARÍN GAY/ 1987. Con seis años, y junto a su padre, murió en el mismo atentado que la anterior.

ROCÍO CAPILLA FRANCO/ 1987. Otra víctima de la explosión en Zaragoza.Tenía 12 años.

ESTHER BARRERA ALCARAZ/ 1987. De tres años e hija de un guardia civil del acuartelamiento zaragozano.

JULIA BARRERA ALCARAZ/ 1987. Hermana gemela de la anterior.Cinco niños fallecieron en Zaragoza.

LUIS DELGADO VILLALONGA/ 1988. Murió en Madrid, con tres años, como consecuencia de las heridas sufridas en la explosión de un coche bomba.

MARÍA DEL CORO VILLAMUDRIA/ 1991. Murió, con 17 años, tras la explosión de un artefacto adosado a los bajos del coche de su padre en San Sebastián.

MARÍA CRISTINA ROSA MUÑOZ/ 1991. 14 años. Jugaba en el patio interior de la casa cuartel en Vic (Barcelona) cuando un coche bomba hizo explosión.

MARÍA DOLORES QUESADA ARRAQUE/ 1991. También asesinada en Vic.Tenía ocho años.

ANA CRISTINA PORRAS LÓPEZ/ 1991. Jugaba con las anteriores en el patio del cuartel. Tenía 10 años.

FRANCISCO DÍAZ/ 1991. Murió en Vic con 17 años.

VANESA RUIZ LARA/ 1991. Quinto menor fallecido en la explosión de Vic, cuando tenía 11 años.

FABIO MORENO ALSA/ 1991. Un artefacto colocado en el coche de su padre en Erandio (Vizcaya) sesgó su vida con dos años.

SILVIA MARTÍNEZ/ 2002. Seis años, asesinada el domingo en Santa Pola (Alicante).

Have you ever talked to any of the people in the basque country that have to be permanently protected by bodyguards (around 1.000, none of them are "oppresed" basque nationalists)?
www.bastaya.org

Ignacio, i want to see you defending your statements openly in public, and not hiding in the anonimity of the internet. Though i see you live in Madrid where freedom of speech and democracy do actually exist; try asking those hundreds of politicians (PP and PSOE) and journalists whose life is in danger how is freedom working in your much loved streets of Bilbao and San Sebastián?
http://www.foroermua.com/memointro.asp

Now, we can discuss history anytime you want.

Joselito

You mean the affected by the police not wanting to evacuate the centre, although ETA warned in advance of the bombing?

You can also ask the police responsibles in case they have not taken their own lifes.

That has to be the most cold hearted hateful thing that you have ever said. That was hateful even for you, Ignacio. You are truly poisoned with hate.

Have to agree with Desert Dweller,

That isn't up to par with your usual convoluted reasoning Ignacio. Something must be lost in the translation.

Let's blame the police when a terrorist group plants a bomb in a public place? The police are being irresponsible by not knuckling under to terrorist? We are worlds apart my friend. I can't believe you're sounding like a sociopath.

The kind of response that makes me feel embarrassed for being basque like that kind of person.

NO, terrorits are responsible for planting a bomb and calling (meaning, so, no lifes taken).

Police is responsible for knowing a place is about to be bombed and not evacuate for whatever reason.

If you go to a place where they are bombing a building for constrution purposes, for example, and the workers don't warn you that you can not enter, and you die inside?

Whose is the fault? The one who put the dynamite or the ones who knew it was going to explode and didn't warn you as it was their duty?

How would you have felt if the police had known with half an hour in advance the twin towers crash, and they hadn't evacuated the people being able to do so?

If I were their family I would have sued them to the last.

Obviously planting bombs is wrong, however you look at it, but if the police were informed that there was a bomb and failed to evacuate the area then they too are at fault.

ETA gives the police 30 minutes notice normally to a newspaper or news agency. It is not like it is 2 or 3 hours! 30 minutes from the time of the phone call until you can respond and evacuate does not leave a lot of time. ETA is also vague sometimes when it comes to disclosing the location of the bombs. Can't blame the police most of the time. Don't give ETA one bit of credit as "Humane" for giving notice.......a 5 year old girl was injured in the last series of bombs........The only statement that made was that they are in fact a INHUMANE terrorist organization.

The world turned upside-down. If I kick you, blame on you for not removing your leg????

Fernando

deibid: Sorry about the novato comment...I was referring to your time as a MM member, not to your intellect and passion on this topic. No offense meant, amigo.

By the way, I'll never be a Californian. I just moved here ten years ago...prior to that I lived in Spain. However, if I apply your logic, I suppose I'm a Spaniard since I lived there, as I'm a Californian for living here... That's actually kind of cool...

I'm not offended by anything posted here, and my purpose is not to propogate and political agenda, just to stimulate debate. According to Fernando's latest post, it doesn't seem to be working. That's just Fernando being Fernando, though.

Since I'll never meet most of you, I have neither the time nor energy to devote to getting heated over something someone might say about me. Usually I post my thoughts and periodically, like with this thread, I need a little diversion and get more involved than normal. I enjoy reading the varying opinions on this board and frankly wish that more would share what they think. I'm afraid, however, that since many don't know both sides, or are so indoctrinated to one or the other, they won't post for fear of being dragged through the mud. I don't have that problem. Drag away [Fernando]:

Monsieur Fernando wrote: Wow. That's a pretty strong statement. Sympathize? ETA's objectives? Look a little harder and you'll find posts written by me that denounce terrorism. I would say at the same time, though, that since "government" won't dialogue with "terrorists" that these "terrorists" probably have resigned themselves that "terror" is their only avenue left to have their grievances heard. Maybe they should post on MM and get their feelings out.

Please note that in the last paragraph that by stating that governments won't negotiate with terrorists, I in no way imply that they should, or that terrorists should continue to sow terror. Again, simply for the sake of trying to understand why people do what they do, I offer that as a possible explanation. This no more makes me an etarra than if I step into Eroski and ask "Does anyone have any titadyne?"

deibid: As for "have I ever" it looks like we have more in common than we thought, as I have "people on both sides" in my family as well. I reiterate my purpose as simply putting both sides out there. Nowhere in my profile have I ever asked anyone to agree with me.

It is a little foolish to not try to get inside the mind of the purported killer to understand the genesis of his/her propensity to kill, opting instead for a convenient societal label that makes one feel good since it reduces the conflict to a "no gray area" black and white/right vs. wrong conflict.

To polarize the ideology as such is dangerous, as by doing so you must admit that one side is only capable of injustice, void of any virtue, and the other only acts in a virtuous way, never straying from the path of that which is just. I would hope that we could both agree that each side, no matter whether we agree 100% or not with their ideology, is not above a little virtue/a little vice.

And now for the closer from Fernando's keyboard:

Was your grandfather castellano or catalan?

Cali, you are trying to present yourself in a neutral position, while you have already taken part by one side.

Anyway, as long as debate remains civilized, I'll participate too.

Spanish governments have tried three times to negotiate with ETA. The last time ETA was very weakened and declared a ceasefire for one year and a half while they were in the background taking information of new objectives (which mean that they were searching for habits of politicians to place a bomb or shoot them more easily), rearming the band and training new terrorists to from new cells.

They have never the intention to stop killing people.

Therefore, you can't blame government of not trying to negotiate. I have convinced myself that to negotiate with terrorists is a loss of time. Either they choose to abandon their terrorist activities or they end in prison.

As for my grandfather, he was from Madrid. Franco's regime repressed those who opposed or could oppose him in any way, not just certain geographic zones.

Fernando

Well said, CaliBasco. Now we understand each other much better.
Zorionak!

The Problem Fernando, is that you have a short memory and a selective reading eye.

My post on the linked thread was written three years ago...and since you've been here three years, it may have been one of the first things you read by me. It hasn't been modified, it is in its original state...and my opinion hasn't changed.

Just exactly what is "neutral" anyway?

And a big egunberri on to you, too, deibid. Ah to be in Bilbo strolling the casco viejo right about now...those were the days!!!!

For quite some time, Calibasco has stated the same things, and asks the same questions, and never has he come out in support of terrorism as an end to a means.

What he has questioned is the reasoning of the Madrid government, and their refusal to at least recognize the rights of the Basques for autonomy, as has been granted by several Spanish governments over the course of history, the last being in 1936 when the Spanish Republic granted autonomy when the Basques supported the elected government of Spain that was overthrown by the dictatorial government of Franco.

Since Spain now claims to be a free nation, why hasn't that autonomy, in accord with past agreements, been given? Why has the Madrid government continuously refused the rights of the Basques to at least have a referendum that could resolve, once and for all, whether or not they really want autonomy? Why has the Madrid government gone into negotiations with the Basques, then, when it suits their purpose, unilaterally stated that any negotiations they are having will never include the right of Basque autonomy? Why has the Madrid government made it a specific point of purpose to summarily find ways to disqualify any duly elected Basques from national government by doing such things as requiring an elected official to "publicly denounce" what ETA is doing or be expelled, when they know full well it's a death sentence against the Basque in office... from ETA execution?

The fact is, the Madrid government has never negotiated one damned thing with the Basques over the years, and never has, or will do so.

That is why ETA exists. It exists because the Madrid government creates the environment for it to exist.

Wolf

I knew you were there, Wolf. It's nice to see that someone here, besides Ignacio, understands what I'm about on this issue. Thanks for getting it.

Speaking of Ignacio, let me tell all of you that although you may not agree with his points of view, he researches his points, states his opinions emphatically and doesn't back down. I look forward to the next time I'm in Madrid, as I was treated with respect, mutually understanding and cordiality by my friend Ignacio...this as he acknowledged to my face that he and I differ greatly in political ideology, and that it didn't bother him [nor does it me].

If we look past our emotionally-charged reactions to what he and others [including myself] post here, we'll see other viewpoints, nothing more. Take what you'd like, respect the person, and agree to agree, or agree to disagree. Then go out for a Casera and some tortilla.

Zorionak everyone!

You know Calibasco,

It's just not the same without Ignacio's comments. However, you say he did a lot of research when he presented his opinion. That might be true, and undoubtably is true about his stance for the Basque. But when he criticizes the U.S., or more accurately, our policies, he didn't know what he was talking about. Sorry, I live here, I think that ours is a very great country, as is Spain. Our policies are not alway right, but look what there is to compare them to.

I always got a kick at the amount of U.S. bashing that was permitted on this board, when right above this topic, it clearly states no country bashing. However, I'm not the type to complain to our good host. Other than that, I wish Ignacio were back too.

Ummm, Wolf, with all due respect, I can't disagree more with you.

What do you understand by "basque autonomy"? In 1978 our Constitution and then the basque autonomy agreement (Estatuto de Gernica) granted ample rights to the basque autonomous community.

Over the years that autonomy has been developed to a point in which the Basque Country is more autonomous than a german lander (being Germany a federal republic), of course more than Ulster or Scotland, and certainly more than a US state (I would say even more than Puerto Rico).

The basque autonomy has an own parlament which can dictate laws, has an own autonomous government, has an own police, their own courts, health system, education system, infrastructures (rail, phone, radio, highways, roads,...), financial agreements with the spanish state and a lot of privileges over other autonomies. The only things the state has retained are common defense, airports and seaports management and certain taxes for the public social security system.

Therefore, what more would you want the state to transfer to the basque government? Should they have their own army? Think of the USA having over 50 armies...

Every government since 1978 has negotiated with the basque government. Both PSOE and PP have even been supported by basque nationalists in the spanish parlament.

As for a referendum it is almost impossible. Would USA accept a referendum for Dakota to be independent?

As for expelling a political party for not publicly denouncing ETA it has never been done. Batasuna was illegalized for financing and actively supporting ETA. Various of their congressmen were ETA members, even one now is an ETA leader (Josu Ternera).

Cali: I won't comment anything about Ignacio as I have promised. As for you, I don't believe in people who say one thing and then argue for other. But let's please argue over things, not over board members.

Fernando

Yet autonomy does not mean independence, which is what askatasuna is all about.

Fernando writes:
As you posted in a separate thread about the Plan Ibarretxe, whatever "laws" are "dictated" by the Basque Parliament must pass Madrid muster, or they are struck down. So the laws passed in Vitoria are simply mirrors of the Madrid versions of the same thing. This is dependence and conformity, not independence and autonomy.

The application of the meaning of autonomy in reference to Basque Country was explained by indicating that the Basques would have the same individual rights of those nations who were part of Great Britain as of 1936.

Although they were linked to England, each was an independent nation. A commonwealth if you prefer.

The Madrid government is the one who has applied the term autonomy in this case to mean less than states rights which we have in the US.

That's not acceptable to the Basques, and may never be accepted.

Cali, the basque parlament may pass any laws, except those incompatible with our constitution. Autonomy doesn't mean that you can pass a law, for example, that would allow men to physically punish women, or that would send blacks to jail, or, in this case, that would modify our own state. As far as I know, a US state could not pass a law for which it would get independent, nor could it pass a law clearly against US consitution, couldn't it?

Wolf, I didn't understand your point. Spain has been a unique country for 500 years (with a brief period of three years in the XVIIIth century in which Catalonia got independent). It can't be compared to UK.

Our autonomies are much more independent, and our country much more decentralized than UK. Northern Ireland and Scotland hadn't an own parlament until some years ago. The Madrid government didn't impose anything. We as spaniards decided that the best frame to live together was the state of the autonomies in 1978. People voted in a free referendum what kind of state they wanted.

I think that the problem here is not autonomy, but that you tend to think that the spanish state is not legitimate and that we should accept something that is not accepted in any other country of the World.

Do you know that in France there is a unique parlament and that everything is decided by the central state? Even when some of France's territories have been independent states time ago.

Our state structure is more than generous with basques, who massively voted for the spanish constitution in a free referendum.

Fernando

Fernando,

Until the Madrid government admits and deals with the issue of total independence through autonomy, granted by the Cortes to Basque Country in 1936, many people believe that the Spanish government is "occupying" Basque Country.

The fact is, the independence was granted by the last legally elected government Spain had before the death of Franco.

Franco, by decree, overturned the ruling of the Cortes, and maintained a stranglehold over the people, and subsequently made their language, Euskara, illegal.

But - if Spaniards fail to recognize this fact - you can expect decades of violence in the future, and the problem will not go away.

Like I said before. The climate for ETA to exist is greatly the fault of the Madrid government. If they didn't want it to exist, they'd uphold the rulings of the Cortes in 1936, not conveniently dance away from it like most people who feel the Basques should not be free from the control of Madrid conveniently do.

I'm sorry. This issue is one that will never be resolved until real discussions for independence are started in good faith.

The very idea that Spaniards believe that what the Madrid government has offered the Basques as "generous" is disengenous to the situation at best.

Wolf

The government of 1936 has no legitimation nowadays, or at least has the same as Franco's governments or medieval governments, that is, nothing.

In 1936 that government tolerated and even praised burning of churches, prosecution of the political opposition and even freed everyone in prison. The last republican government reached power by a coup d'etat. Would USA recognize pre-independence governments as a source of legitimation for its laws???

We only recognize as the source of legitimation the Constitution of 1978 which was agreed by the majority of the spaniards (including basques) as a framework of good convivence. Autonomy was not the means to achieve independence, but the means to achieve a good status in which everyone could have its claimings satisfied to a point.

You are forgetting that more than half of the basques are more than satisfied with the current status.

It is a minority who wants to impose other status by violent means. And current basque government is just breaking the law to satisfy that minority.

Fernando

Fernando,

You're right. The elected government in 1936 holds no sway today. The rule applied to the Basques is that of a dictator, and the people of Spain are continuing that dictatorial rule over the Basques because it's convenient to keep it that way.

In 1936 both sides of the Civil War were burning churches and shooting Priests because of their politics.

In 1931, after the revolution, and election, that brought an elected party to office, the people lashed out at their largest oppressor in Spain, which was actually the Catholic Church that kept them in abject poverty while they became fat off the labor of the people. In essence, they asked for it.

But, in Basque Country, the Priests were leaders of the revolution against the Monarchy and Church ownership of nearly everything. They were with the people. They weren't harmed.

As for the "last" Republican government taking control by coup d'etat, that happened after the elected Cortes granted freedom to the Basques, and has no influence over what was offered. They were already free, before that upheaval.

So, when did the coup d'etat take place? During the war itself, and was totally political. When it happened, the Republican government had essentially been killed. But their laws were still on the books, and their decision to free the Basques, remained there, until Franco overthrew the decision through his powers as a dictator. It was not rescinded by a freely elected body of the Cortes.

In reference to political imprisonments, and killings, it was going on long before the revolution. The Monarchy was systematically having anyone who "disagreed" with their rule taken away without benefit of law, and disposed of. So once again, it was retribution we saw from the Republicans after they won the 1931 Civil War.

What would the US recognize? We'd recognize the laws and the decisions of a duly elected government over those of a dictator, but the problem is, in the US, we were too afraid that the Communists were entrenched in the 1931 Civil War, and actually helped to contribute their very rise to power with the coup you referred to at a later date. I'm afraid we screwed up. We should have answered the pleas of the people in 1936, and supported them. It would have kept the Communists from eventually taking control.

You say that over half the Basques don't want independence, but let's face facts. The Madrid government is afraid that may not be true, or they would allow the referendum.

You'd think they'd be happy to allow it, since they systematically moved non-Basques into Basque Country for decades to "dilute" the Basque influence over the region.

This was a calculated move by Franco to essentially "occupy" the region with non-Basques, who also were granted positions of authority, supported by the military, and given every feasible support to succeed, while the Basques themselves were held down, and the government tried to force them into submission.

What's happened in the region is in a great part the responsibility of the government in Madrid, no matter how you look at the issue.

Like I've said repeatedly, and CaliBasco has said as well, ETA will continue to function as a force until such time as the people of Spain live up to the agreements reached by the Cortes in 1936, or at least grant them a referendum that will allow them to determine which direction they want to pursue.

As for the majority of those who say they have left Basque Country for other climes in Spain because of the unrest, the majority of them seem to come from families that were transplanted to Basque Country by Franco in the first place. The ones that were sent there to dilute the Basque legacy.

Wolf

Umm, Wolf, it seems as if you are reading the propaganda of a staunch basque nationalist party. They are your opinions, but let me disagree:

Incomplete and unfair. The elected government was kicked out by a coalition of socialists and other forces by undemocratic means (after 5 tries of coup d'etat in the years between 1930 and 1932, of which 4 of them were of leftist parties which tried to impose a sovietic regime). The rule that apply over basques nowadays is that of 1978, a Constitution voted in democratic and free elections.

Incorrect. Only leftist parties were anti-clerical and anti-catholic. Anarchists, communists, socialists and radical republicans praised and organized burnings of churches, universities and schools.

Incorrect. Socialists organized a strike in order to ruin the crops of that year as a means to rise the unrest and achieve the dictatorship of the proletaries in a sovietic way. Only 2,000 of 9,000 councils supported the strike. Churches and clerics were attacked because leftist parties were absolutely anti-clerical. Spain was then majorly a traditional and ultra-catholic country.

According our Constitution a referendum can only be organized by the Government (the spanish one).

That is simply untrue. Franco heavily industrialized the Basque Country and Catalonia in order to ease the unrest. As the employment was created in these two regions, people from other regions migrated to them.

What has happened in the region is in the greatest part, in my opinion, responsibility of nationalists. The lack of culture and education ar the extreme.

ETA will continue to function as a force as long as there is people who think that terrorism can be justified by grievances happened a century ago and as long as some people think they can impose the rest their ideas by putting bombs or shooting in the head to those who dare speak in loud voice.

I think that some friends of mine and 200,000 basques would want to say something about that statement. It sounds to me like "they are jews, they are not germans" issue.

Even if it was true (which it isn't) it would be unmoral and really undemocratic. Are black americans true americans or africans? Are germans of turkish parents germans or turkish?

Wolf I really don't see your point. We live in a democracy agreed by the majority of spaniards (and the majority of basques) peacefully (for the longest period in centuries). Now the basque government, supported by ETA via its political partys' votes, try to get independent by illegal means (that is, breaking the laws)... and you say that it is fair because in 1936 there were a revolutionary pro-sovietic government which stated that the Basque Country was independent???? I can barely believe it...

Fernando