MULTIPLE TRAINS BOMBED IN MADRID

At 8:05 am today (11 March), three commuter trains were ripped apart by multiple explosions. At this time (10:54am), there are an estimated 125 dead and hundreds injured, with many more casualities expected as rescue crews discover more bodies in the remains of the train coaches.

In addition there have been reports of a forth (car) bomb outside the National Assembly, although this was reported on only one television station, and I haven't heard other stations confirming it.

No group has yet come forth to claim responsibility, although the Basque terrorist/mafia gang, ETA, is a likely suspect, especially after over 500 kilograms (1100 pounds) of high explosive chemicals were discovered in a van stopped for a traffic violation near Cuenca last February 29th.

Urgent calls for blood donations have gone out from the Department of Health, and mobile blood donation centers have been set up in several plazas of Madrid in addition to the permanent donation centers.

Hundreds of ambulances and police vehicles are in constant movement, ferrying the injured to the main medical centers, such as Hospital La Paz, for treatment. Bodies and body parts can be seen on the "via" outside the bombed coaches which were almost cut in half by the explosions. At one station, the television showed at least three consecutive coaches with bomb damage in the center of each car, apparently designed to inflict the maximum number of deaths and injuries by the terrorists. All the bombs were apparently set off as the trains were about to unload passengers at the stations, again a strategy designed to increase casualities.

President Aznar cancelled an official function this morning after learning of the attacks. These attacks are the largest in the history of the terrorist campagin waged against the officials and citizens of Spain by ETA, far surpassing an attack on a shopping center in Barcelona in the 1990s which resulted in 26 deaths.

I will try to update this thread as I get more news, but it is a little difficult because I have to go to an Internet Cafe to do so.

Your thoughts and prayers for the victims and their families and friends will be greatly appreciated.

Martin de Madrid

What a shocker...

I´m heading over to Puerta Del Sol now to donate blood.

God bless all these poor souls associated with the bombings, EVEN the friggin´ ETA. They need it most!

Oh My God. I'll be following this story closely today. That is absolutely horrible.

TO ANYONE IN MADRID WHO WANT TO KNOW ABOUT RELATIVES WHO COULD HAVE BEEN IN THOSE TRAINS:

(PARA AQUELLOS EN MADRID QUE QUIERAN INFORMACIÓN ACERCA DE FAMILIARES QUE PUDIERAN VIAJAR EN ESOS TRENES, POR FAVOR, NO LLAMAR SI NO SE SOSPECHA DE QUE UN FAMILIAR VIAJABA ALLÍ PARA NO COLAPSAR LAS LÍNEAS)

THESE PHONE NUMBERS GIVE INFORMATION ABOUT RELATIVES, PLEASE ONLY FOR RELATIVES, NOT FOR GENERAL INFORMATION (TOO MANY CALLS COULD COLLAPSE THE PHONE LINES)

(INFORMACIÓN SOBRE FAMILIARES Y HERIDOS:)

900 200 222 - 902 200 215

INFORMATION ABOUT CASUALTIES (INFORMACIÓN SOBRE VÍCTIMAS)

91 586 70 00

PLEASE, DON´T CALL IF YOU'RE NOT FRIEND OR RELATIVE OF SOMEONE WHO COULD BE IN THOSE TRAINS.

------------------
------------------

Thank you very much Martín de Madrid for the information.

I'm shocked. This is the most tragical day in Spain since the civil war, but unfortunately it hasn't been the first terrorist act that we have to go through.

Please pray for the victims, and ask for this madness to be stopped. I hope someday terrorism will desappear from Earth's face.

Sorry for my english.

PD: Un abrazo a la gente de Madrid.

UPDATE:

Mobile blood donation units have been set up at Puerta del Sol and Plaza Castellaña, and another location (I do not have the information). The authorities are asking people to stay away from the hospitals, and instead go to a donation center (the television stations constantly broadcast the locations), to keep from aggrevating traffic problems around the medical centers.

Current body count: 138, with more expected. Hundreds injured, many seriously. The city, naturally, is in shock. All train and bus service in the city has been suspended for the time being. The areas around the affected train stations (Atocha, Pozo and one other), are closed to traffic, and people are asked to stay away from these areas to allow emergency crews easier access.

MdM

Its not exactly the news I was hoping to hear 48 hours before going to madrid! We have had to cope with terrorist threats and acts in the UK for many years - we never let them win though. I would like to think that they wouldnt hit again in such a short time after this atrocity, and I am only due to spend a couple of days in madrid but it is a worry especially with the election this weekend.

UPDATE:

173 dead
400+ injured
I apologize for the grisly nature of this update, if it offends anyone, I will refrain.

Personally, I am offended by the fact that the security forces knew an attack of this magnitude was in the works, but have not been stopping and checking vans and trucks for explosives. Recently a national judge was suspended for his judgements favoring ETA, but I feel the state has done far too little to go after ETA members. For example there are often news conferences by ETA members at which a large group of citizens attends to shout "assains" at the representatives. Why aren't the police detaining these people? They are members of an outlawed terrorist group! If a member of Al Quieda held a press conference in the US you can bet he or she would be arrested and questioned. . .

Thank you for all the information and updates, my heart goes out to those involved in this atrocity and i hope that those repsonsible will be caught and severely punished.

I would like an opinion on whether people think it is safe to use the metro in general today?
Or if it is reccommended that we stay away in fear of further attacks, I have to collect people from the airport today and was planning to use the nuevos ministerios metro station to get there, what should i do?

Personally, I wouldnt use it, but I also doubt there would be further attacks so soon (although you clearly cant predict what these groups will do).

I am not convinced it was ETA yet - it seems a very big operation, and dont they usually say they have done an attack? Maybe they havent been stopping lorries etc. but these were bombs on trains as I understand it - it must be very difficult to stop someone carrying a case full of explosives onto a train?

I, too, am wondering whether this is a very ETA-like attack. Certainly not consistent with their usual way of operating.

With the elections so close, could this be some sort of commentary on Spain's support of the war in Iraq? I'm equally hesitant, though, to simply attribute it to al-Quaeda or some similar group. Seems a little TOO easy for ETA to be able to shift blame to what they're calling the "Arab resistance."

Whoever perpetrated it, this is a horrible tragedy for Spain. My heart goes out to everyone there.

How infinitely tragic. My heart bleeds for my Madrid of many happy memories--and my friends there.

is there anyplace that i can call or go to on the internet to get a list of victims if i am not an immediate relative? or find out exactly what trains where involved?
kelly

This tragedy will not be forgotten. As an American, I intend contacting my representatives in Washington, and asking them exactly how much support they've given the Spanish Government in their battle against terrorism. There is no limit as to how far this support should go in their ongoing battle. As the Spanish government stood shoulder to shoulder with us over the Iraqi issue, we must do the same thing for Spain in her time of need.

Let no stone be left unturned, and may the people behind this horrible action be brought to justice as quickly as possible.

We'll continue to pray for the safety of not only our loved ones who may well have been on one of the trains, but everyone else who was killed or injured. There will be retribution for this, and I hope it's swift and final.

Wolf

According to the ABC.es (daily, conservative national newspaper in Spain) article HERE , police are searching for 2 persons whom between 7:00 a.m. and 7:10 a.m. entered and left several trains in the train station of Alcalá de Henares. These two are suspected in leaving backpacks/bookbags full of explosives on the bombed trains.

What can I say?.......My heart goes out......These types of acts have got to stop....We have to crack down......I hope my friends are all right......I "hope the retribution is swift and final."

HERE is the link to the story on Fox News. Anyone with any ideas on how to explain to 15 high school students just what happened here?

Normally I would assume that it was ETA. I'm not so sure though since there was no pre-bomb warning, which is their M.O. If it was "al-Cowarda" though, we'll probably find a couple of arab bodies among the wreckage...what with the promise of paradise for the "martyrs" and all. There were three other undetonated explosive packs found on the trains.

Regarding the "stopping vans" comment: In the above-linked story, they mention stopping at least 1 van with 1100 lbs of explosives on it on 2/29. In a city of more than 5 million you have to weigh the "stop all vans" vs. "spot check." That's the world reality we have now.

I'm confident that the Spanish authorities will find those responsible. Unfortunately, those reponsible are past feeling, and any punishment wouldn't be enough to make them feel otherwise. There is likely no rehabilitation for these sorts of people who delight in shedding blood.

Today's massacre is another witness for the necessity of a death penalty in these sorts of extreme cases. And in the same breath, I pray for those innocent victims and their families that GOD comforts them today going forward.

Peace.

No, there's not 'arab resistance' here. That's some bull**** Arnold Otegui said, as he always does.
Police has determined that the explosive's composition is exactly the same used by ETA in all the recent attacks, and the same intercepted by the police just 15 days ago.
ETA does not always assume its actions immediately, they may wait for the elections to finish.
On top of that, intelligence officers say that there has been a debate inside ETA between the 'hard' wing and the 'soft' wing, guess who won the debate.
This is a huge change in ETA's strategy. May God protect us!

as far as if it was ETA or not, maybe they are just making early assumptions but, after seeing the notice of what happened here on MMs board i went to the spanish building here at my university and parked myself in front of sattelite tv direct from spain to see what what going on. The news there said it was eta, and they had a speech from aznar 'implying' it was eta and promising swift action against them.
off to class i go,
Kelly

Calibasco,
WOw, quite a challenge to explain twisted upon twisted logic to young minds. You'll need your magician's wand. But...my thoughts on this are that (a) you'll need a minimum of a week to go through historical grievances and chronologies. Without this context you would run the risk of trivializing the intensity of feelings involved; (b) try to avoid simplifying matters or reaching the all of nothing conclusion. If ETA were all nut cases, life would be easier. They are not, They put much wasted brainpower into creating an act meant to terrorize and kill and maim; (c) try to present strategic points of view, perhaps providing historical context from your home country (the US?). Of course, it is not the same, but getting kids to understand things from the perspectives of the actors involved would be an invaluable lesson for youngsters.

Your task is both tricky and challenging, but very noble. I wish you all the best.
A

For kelar419 and anyone else:

Hospital\'s Injured Temporary List

Other information (It will be updated as new information arrives)

taken from my post in the other relevant thread -

[B} Any board members living in Madrid - please check in and let us know you and your families are safe [/b]

Does anyone out there have any opinion on 4 girls traveling to Madrid from the US in the next two weeks? We are scheduled to fly out on March 25, 2004. What would you do? Reschedule, cancel, go?????

I don't know what to say...I am still a little weepy. Our thoughts and prayers to all who were affected. Thank you for the updates and links. I have forwarded those links to other friends who also have friends in Spain.

As far as the ETA link goes, it is certainly possible that they have received "tutoring" from other terrorist organizations, which could account for a change in M.O.

ETA No.

I went over to donate blood earlier today but could not because the lines were long. That´s ok tho, because at least there has not been a shortage of blood for the wounded. I have the unversal donor type, but opted not to wait in line for the estimated 5 hours.

011495, I would suggest you not cancel your trip. You can only plan your life so far around acts of cowardice like this. Have you wondered if people in places like Jerusalem cancel going to the market, or going out for a coffee because of the cowardly acts of terrorism there?

Just expect for delays in transportation, like cercanía train, buses, etc... Like for example I was going to catch a bus out of Madrid, but could not get tickets because people who had train tickets have now gotten bus tickets. My particular bus did not have seats available anymore. Oh well, I´ll just stay in Madrid for the weekend. The metro has barely shut down... Only the Atoch thru Pacífico stops on the blue line 1 are being skipped, but everything else is running.

andrew

Dear Spain Lovers: This is very deja-vu of 9/11 in NYC. Love & prayers to all of those affected by this ghastly act of insanity. To the girls from No. Carolina. Please go to Spain and enjoy its beauty & magnificent people. Those that came to NYC after 9/11 were concerned but came in spite of their fears. They feel it was the best trip of their life. You will not regret it.

On flying out. So hard to say. My wife and kids fly out on the 29th. Does lightning strike twice in the same spot? Safe to say, it is impossible to say. I would think that traveling now would be safer than the summer, but geez, impossible to know.

Just take extra precautions. May be harder for for young girls out to enjoy Spain--pubs, discos, etc. than for boring old families (like mine )that prefer uncrowded areas.

Do be careful, but make sure you enjoy Spain while here--if not what is the point?

Best, A

I haven't had the stomach to post until now.

I have no words...

Fernando

There are not the words to express the sadness at the loss suffered today in Madrid. Seeing places where you think "I've been there, done that" totally destroyed is unbelievable.

All our thoughts and hopes are with the good people of madrid today. God bless.

Spain is the best country i have ever lived in!!

I spent 12 years in the canary islands in Gran Canaria to be more exact and the people there
Were the best i have ever encountered in my life.

Viva España siempre!!!

TODAY We are all Madrileños in our hearts.

Latest casualty figures are 192 dead and 1427 injured. The police will not be releasing a list of those killed in this morning's attacks pending identification and notification of next of kin. I have heard that about 80 of the victims have been identified through their DNI or resident cards. News stations are reporting that there are about 70 doctors working at the temporary morgue at IFEMA to identify remains. Families are being allowed to identify remains when there has been a match with documentation. They have done a good job of keeping the area private and providing counseling and support for the families.

For anyone worried about U.S. citizens in Spain, so far there has been no confirmation of any deaths and information of four U.S. citizens who were injured in the attacks, but were treated and released from the Spanish hospitals. The Spanish reaction to the attacks has been quite impressive. Rescue workers were on the scene very quickly and the transportation of the injured to the hospitals given the number of casualties was very efficient. The last arrivals were around 2:30pm. The hospitals have had an abundance of volunteers and registration of the the injured being seen actually helped get the preliminary list of on to the Interior Ministry's website by late afternoon.

FYI, my family an I are all fine.

I have no words.......but my heart goes out to everyone and their families.
Those of us from New York feel your pain to the core. Stand strong and know our prayers are with you all.
For those of you who are questioning whether to travel to Madrid or not. Don't stop. I almost cancelled my trip to Italy scheduled for right after 9/11. I am so glad I did not, and went in spite of my fears. It was so worth it!! Ironically, my trip to Spain is scheduled for May. So I understand your trepidation. I arrive the day of the Royal Wedding. So.....
Blessings to all.

kelar419
If you haven't already seen the information, one train was comining in from Guadalajara en route to Chamartin, making it's stop in Atocha. The other two originated in Acala de Henares. All three were on the Cercanias 2 line. I read this on www.elmundo.es. Hit the sigue after the blurb.

This is horrible, just horrible. I remeber my trip to Madrid two years ago, the freindly people I met while waiting for a train at Atocha. This is breaking my heart. Prayers and God's Love to all in Spain at this dark hour.

An Arabic langaugae newspaper in London recieved a fax claiming responsiblity for this act by al Queda. It stated that this was "settling old scores with Spain". Remember bin Laden's video released after the start of the Afgahnistan war in November of 2001? "We will never forget the fate of al-Andalus" is what he said at the very begining. 1492 may as well have been last week to that deranged and homicidal gang of criminals. May justice find whoever is responsible, in this life or the next.

As Spain has stood by America during its trials, know that America stands with you. Viva Espana!.

thanks for the update on the trains and lists of passengers. I finally got through to them about an hour or two ago. They are fine. He came in on a cercania from san eugenia or something and was already clear of the Atocha area at the time that it happened.

My husband and I love Spain, particularly Madrid. We've been to Madrid several times and feel very close to the city and its people. Seeing such a horrible act committed upon such lovely people makes my heart ache.

To anyone who is planning a trip to Spain, please do not let this stop you from experiencing one of the most amazing places and people on the planet.

Just wondering...is there any special significance to the 11th day of the month for possible terrorist groups? I just noticed that this is 3/11 (or 11/3 in Europe) and of course we all know about 9/11 (11/9).

This is just heartbreaking--to my friends in Spain, please know that you have the love and support of so many for whom Madrid is a truly enchanted place. The magic of Spain and its people is far stronger than these hateful acts.

Any body knows how many days are between 11-S-01 and 11-M-04? there are 911days, 9-11 (september eleven)
I'm lucky my father took the train 30 mins later.

What a tragic day. I rode the cercanias to class in Madrid every day from Getafe while I was living in Spain. It was hard for me to get through the day as I kept thinking of the profound sadness happening in my favorite city in the world. As a Spanish teacher, it was difficult to find the words to explain what was going on to my students. My thoughts and prayers are with the people of Madrid and all of Spain as the global struggle with terrorism extends to their doorstep.

Para todo el pueblo de España la mas profunda condolencia de todos sus amigos norteamericanos. Los acompañamos en su profundo dolor. Que Dios bendiga y proteja a nuestros hermanos Españoles. Y un fuerte abrazo de una amiga de Miami. To my American friends, I plan to travel to Spain next month and do not intend on cancelling my trip because of today's attack. If 9/11 taught us anything is that we can't coward and hide in our homes because that's exactly what the terrorist/murderers want. Go to Spain and enjoy that wonderful country and its wonderful people.

"If a member of Al Quieda held a press conference in the US you can bet he or she would be arrested and questioned. . ."

ANYONE can hold an unfettered press conference in the US. The Constitution guarantees it. If the message is a call to actions that are illegal then some "intervention" may occur.
My prayers to the families of those killed and injured. Are Americans able to give blood?
I will be there next week.

Our sympathy and thoughts in U.K. are with all in Spain and especially Madrid. God bless you all, and may you catch these murderers

I am shocked and saddened by this horrible news! My condolences go out to those who lost family and friends this morning; my thoughts and prayers go out to everyone whose life was touched by this senseless and heartless act of violence.

One of my favorite poets, John Donne, wrote:
"...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

The deaths and the suffering of the people of Spain touch us all. Today's actions were an attack on all the freedom loving people of the world and I agree with Wolf...the US should offer to help Spain in any way they can. These attacks must stop.

--------------------------
la maestra: the US is my "madre patria", but Spain is "la madrina."

This is such horrible news, I couldn't get through the day.
I pray for everyone I know in Madrid and all of the other wonderful people there.
As for the 4 girls flying to Spain on the 25th, don't worry. I fly there on the 25th as well with my best friend. I am spending 5 days in Madrid and the rest of the 2 weeks I'm showing her around the rest of Spain. I used to live there and go to school there, I lived there during the war last year. Everyone needs to be brave.

"TODAY We are all Madrileños in our hearts."
I second this

I had no idea how massive & devastating it was until I saw on world news this morning. My heart goes out to all the innocent victims of this senseless atrocity. My sympathy & prayers for the families & loved ones who have to deal with such grief & loss. ETA or Al-Qaeda, there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for this horrific act of cruelty.

This is so horrible....I just read the story of what happened in Madrid and all I can do is weep. I am so very sorry and my thoughts and prayers go out to all those involved in this tragedy. Sending ALL of my love to Madrid.

One Love~
Leash

As an American, I would like to share my sympathy and hope to the people of Spain. My fiancee and I will be traveling to Madrid in a week, and I hope that by going to Spain in this hour, we will be doing our small part in helping to heal the damage.

I do have a question for everyone -- with the explosions and the upcoming elections, are the city and national authorities closing museums and other tourist sites? And are other cities in Spain being affected. I know someone earlier mentioned that the only visible change is slower transportation. Is that still the case?

Again, all our prayers and support go to Madrid and the Spanish people. Viva Espana!

I can't believe how people can be so blind this is not ETA and we all know it. Only a radical muslim would be capable of causing this ETA doesn't massive amounts of civilians this isn't them Aznar decided to get Spain involved in this War and in the end the Spanish people paid for it. It's that simple.

So, Spain is responsible for 3/11, just as America was responsible for 9/11, right?

Shame on you, Quintos.

Spain isnt responsible for it Aznar and the Muslim terriost and other things are to blame for it not the Spanish people or per se Spain.

I started to write a well thought out response to Quintos until I remembered my own rule about not talking politics on the web. Suffice to say I disagree with Quintos. His logic is as faulty as his punctuation. (Are you pregnant? You seem have missed a few periods.)

I am also very speechles and would like to post a little something that I posted at one of my yahoo groups. Please forgive me for not having something new to say but it is the only thing I am realy able to say at the moment.

[First I would like to say how sad and upset I am after hearing about
the terrorist attack in Madrid Spain. I am very speechless and
probally will be for quit a while. I wanna send my condolences to
all the wonderful spanish people who either lost there lives,got
injured or lost a loved one. I can only hope that the horrible
people who caused this will be brought to justice. It is unfortunate
that many children and families are now suffering because of this.
Many children now left with out a parent or parents to raise them
because some people believe that hurting people is the best way to
send there message. I hope this event will bring us all closer
together as people. My heart will forever hurt for all the people
who where affected by this. I can only pray that there hearts will
eventualy heal from the pain. Blessings to all.]

I would also like to say that I agree with Wolf and I think it is a great idea to contact U.S. officials and I hope that they will listen and give as much help as possible. I have yet to go to Spain but yet I still cryed today. My eyes are still trying to water up just from thinking about everything that has happened. If anyone knows anyway(s) that I can help like volunteering or anything then please let me know. This evening before I go to bed I will make an extra special prayer for all of the victims.

I also have the universal blood type and if I was there I would also try and give blood but sadly I am so far away and feel helpless to do anything:(

A terrible and sad day in Madrid. Hope all are well out there.

I don’t want to get into a long arguement with anyone regarding this issue as now is not the time and I don’t think this is the place.

But I will say a couple of things. To the person who called for the swift use of capital punishment, killing people is never the answer, ask the residents of NYC, Jerusalem or Bagdad if they believe terrorists are afraid to die. Whoever the perpetrators turn out to be, they should not be labelled as Basque Seperatists or radical Muslims. The vast majority of people from the Basque region of Spain, even those who want independence, are sickened by yesterday’s events. And, Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and compassion that explicitly forbids these kind of actions. The perpetrators are simply monsters and murderers and deserve no other label.

Thirdly and finally, to the folk who mentioned they had concerns over their safety. Spain is a safe, friendly and wonderful place to visit. Remember, the main wish of these monsters is to destroy the nature of the society in which we live. If we stop travelling, meeting friends and living our lives then they will have won.

I think I may well have already said too much so will shut up now.

Best wishes to all.

Marko.

I'll chime in with my 25 cents worth. The following are just my own opinions. I don't intend to start an ideological battle, just provoke some thought, perhaps in some different directions.

First, no matter who did this, they are beyond the pale, and need to be brought to justice. I feel death would be too easy. They should be put to hard hard labor so every day of their miserable lives they will be reminded of their crime.

Second, although the organizers of such insanity, be they ETA, Al Quieda, Hammas, whomever, are able to recruit their followers because of some flaw: poverty, radicalized ideology, personal insanity, ancient hatreds and so forth. Some of these things, like personal insanity, we cannot do anything about. Others, like poverty, blundered or poorly thought-out post war occupation plans, we can do much, much better than we have done in the past.

Third, cultural attitudes, especially lifestyles-- and here I pointedly mean the hyper-consumerist, ecologically hostile cultures of the so-called "first world" -- are going to increase the fundamental problems in the first point I made. The cynical exploitation of both Western and non-Western peoples, but especially the latter, by corporations and their government lackies must be reversed. A way of maintaining an acceptable quality of life must be found, for everyone. If this means those now enjoying the ill-gotten fruits of this exploitation have to (for example) give up driving thier 8 cylinder Beemers to work every day for public transportation, or other "sacrifices," then I'll be the first in line to purchase a Metro monthly ticket. (Yes, I am one of the consumerist minions, but I do everything in my power to minimize the impact, like using public transportation as much as possible.) The point is that options must be put into place, and this must be of high priority.

Fourth, more resources must be put into identifying root causes and the solutions for these problems. If you really want to stop the violence, then why not make a "Department of Peace" and match its funding to the DOD?

Last, we need to identify, support and elect leaders who are statesmen (and stateswomen), who can find options to the "big stick" model of dealing with conflict, whether military or political or economic. There is a glaring lack of creativity, xenophobia and short-sigthedness in our current (non-)elected officials in the US. The world is just too large, too complex, and the threats to organized for the US to continue to play policeperson (with a few of allies) alone.

I am aware that I stand to be criticized as many things, hypocritical, egoistic (even unpatriotic), etc. for posting this. I am well aware my simplistic suggestions are not necessarily realistic, that they do not even begin to deal with all the problems, etc. etc. They are posted, as I stated, as a catalyst for thought. I hope to see a great deal of contrary points of view, much disagreement. THAT debate is an example of exactly what I am trying, in my impoverished way, to point out that we need in the larger picture.

(Please note that I don't really have anything against owners of BMWs specifically (except those who think they own the road!). I abjure Mercedes, Audis, Cadillacs, Lincon Contentals, RVs, sport utilities, and large pickup trucks (among others) also! Actually I have it in for the infernal combustion engine in general. I admit, I own a car, but use it as little as possible.)

In friendship, and debate

A few more words to those who are contemplating visiting (or canceling their visit) to Madrid.

PLEASE COME! If we change our lives out of fear, the terrorists win. It is exactly what they are attempting to force us to do. If we do not cower, if we stand together we give them the message: "WE ARE NOT AFRAID OF YOU!" And only those who know no fear will be able to bring the perpetrators to justice.

These attacks happen. So does cancer. Life does not come with a guarantee of safety, no matter what you do or do not do. Spain is a wonderful country, and, as you can see, the people here are wonderful too. They will take heart from your defiance of the forces of evil, and they will return your good will many times over.

We are in a world-wide battle. No one can escape it. We are all involved because these demons choose to target non-military objectives. Whether you like it or not you, and your loved ones are all combatants, it is just that the civilians do their fighting in a different (an probably more heroic) manner than those in fatigues and with assualt rifles.

¡Bienvenidos a la lucha!

Quintos, you are to be ignored. I agree with others that this is not the place to start a political debate.

Today at 12noon everyone poured out into the streets of Madrid for a moment of silence.

On Gran Vía, we stood in the streets blocking any traffic. One person shouted ´Viva España,´ and the entire crowd chimed in. We had our silence, and then everyone clapped... It seems like everyone is sad and angry all at the same time, and this seems natural to me. I know that´s how I feel.

When I made my posts yesterday, I had not heard the latest on death toll and wounded. After reading many of the posts and the information in them, I went immediately to a television and watched for hours... The Fox News website has had excellent reporting too.

I am blown away with what has been reported.

Foxnews.com has some interesting articles about this event (CNN is not an option for me, since they don´t believe ETA is a terrorist group):
E-Mail: Attack on U.S. \'90 Percent Ready\'
Al-Qaeda Ties to Spain
Aznar: All Lines Open in Probe

Not really sure, but would ETA really enlist Al-Qaeda involvement? Somehow I can´t see that...

Viva España.

ps> just wanted to add this:
Atención Víctimas Atentados en Madrid

Madrid blast victims from 11 countries

MADRID, March 12 (Reuters ) - The nearly 200 dead from the Madrid bombs came from 11 countries including Spain, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar said on Friday.

"There are nationals from 11 countries," he told a news conference.

As well as the Spanish victims, there were three Peruvians, two Hondurans, two Poles, one Chilean, one Cuban, one Ecuadorean, one from Guinea Bissau, one French, one Moroccan and one Colombian, Aznar said.

At least 198 people died and 1,463 were wounded in Thursday's attacks on packed Madrid commuter trains. Investigators were trying on Friday to pin down whether Basque separatists or Muslim militants were to blame for the carnage.

Many of the wounded were also from foreign countries. Latin Americans immigrants flocked to hospitals looking for relatives on Thursday.

Aznar said immigrants caught up in the disaster would be offered Spanish citizenship.

"I have given instructions to the Interior Minister to proceed urgently with the regularisation of the situation of all the victims of the attacks and their families who may be in an irregular immigration status," he said.


03/12/04 06:03 ET

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Stay tunned for today's demonstrations.

You will realize what spaniards think about terrorism.

¡Todos unidos contra el terrorismo!

Fernando

Some of the students in my Spanish classes have asked about ways that we can help the victims in Madrid. I've checked with the local Red Cross and they had no information. Does anyone have any suggestions or information for what those of us in the US can do to help?

Viva España

You have already helped Torero.

Thanks (in part) to american aid we have enjoyed almost a year without terrorism.

Just don't forget us, pray for the victims.

It has been incredible the support we have received from Europe (people spontaneusly heading to spanish consulates, offering aid,...) and all the world.

Thanks!

Fernando

My wife picked up a length of black ribbon this morning. She's making ribbons for us to wear on our clothing. Ribbons indicating we too are in mourning with the people of Spain who are our brothers and sisters.

It isn't much, but when people ask us about the ribbons - and they will - they will be told about the people of Madrid, of Spain, and what has happened there. Then she intends handing them a ribbon and a pin, and asking them to join in the mourning with us.

I feel no less pain today than I did after the attacks of 9-11. The victims of both savage attacks will not be forgotten.

I am so sorry for what has happened in your country. This shakes me up some how as a reminder of 911. I can not believe that people can hate so badly yet, we must not give up on people and life because it is indeed precious to all of us!

My heart and prayers go out to the families of the living and deceased. Let this be a reminder that we must keep praying daily and not allow any ugliness to get us down. We are strong and through adversity is strength!! :p

God Bless All in Spain!

Thanks for everyone commenting on the 4 gals traveling from the USA to Madrid in less than 2 weeks. After much debate our plans are still on, if for no other reason than to support the many wonderful people of Spain. Our hearts go out to the families, friends and countrymen of these victims. We look forward to visiting Madrid and the surrounding areas.

This is the link to the flag w/ black ribbon being discusssed ....

http://www.englishunlimited.net/stuff/11_March_Spain_Unity.pdfv

To all those who are traveling in the next month.

I am going over Easter week and I will be a willing participant in the crowds of Semana Santa. Am I nervous? Yes, as I was after 9-11, when I couldn't get on an airplane or elevator or train without scanning my fellow passengers' faces. But if I don't go, I will also be a victim of terrorism -- having changed my way of life to suit the terrorists' needs.

VIVIR CON MIEDO, ES VIVIR A MEDIAS.

After September 11, the people of Spain, as well as many other countries, shared the grief of all Americans. I want to be sure the Spaniards know that Americans now grieve for them. Your country supported us in an unsupported war and you marched against the war, as we did. We truly share your grief and I am personally sorry for your losses. We understand your pain. Remember those who were lost in this cowardly act but also remember that you must be strong and continue to live life as it was meant to be. Do not let them destroy that.

I for one am not changing an iota of my travel plans, I plan as before to fly into MadridBarajas, take the subway to Atocha, and the train to Valencia, as my own small action rejecting violence.

Hello,
I just wanted to send my and my friends love, thoughts & prayers to all of those affected by this horrid act of insanity.
Blessings,Kat

I am leaving for my trip to Spain in exactly three weeks and will not cancel.

My first trip to Spain was less than 3 weeks after 9/11. It was eerie at the airport with the car inspections and empty terminals. But I was determined these terrorists were not going to take away my freedom. I had been to many countries in europe but never to Spain. The spanish people were so very warm and sympathetic to the tragedy in New York. I fell in love with Spain and the people and this will be my 6th trip. I hope that I can give back to the people of Spain the compassion and sympathy that they showed me on my first visit to their country.

This is an interesting excerpt from an AP article:
"The attack occurred exactly 2 1/2 years after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in
the United States _ and there 911 days in between the terror attacks in
Madrid and those in New York and Washington. It also was Europe's worst
terror attack since the 1988 bombing of a Pan Am jetliner over Lockerbie,
Scotland, killed 270 people".

My heart and prayers go out to the wonderful Spanish people.

I've just come from the demonstration in Madrid. According to the police we were 2,300,000 people, despite the heavy rain.

I went with some friends. We were surrounded by thousands of people, many of them young people willing to live in peace and wishing a future without terrorism.

Apart from Madrid, there have been demonstrations all around Spain and even in some cities around the world.

Barcelona -> 1,200,000
Sevilla -> 1,000,000
Valencia -> 700,000
Zaragoza -> 400,000
...

11,400,000 people in Spain have taken part in them.

The most beautiful sentence I heard tonight on the demostration was: "¡¡Hoy no llueve, Madrid llora!!" (Today is not raining, Madrid is crying!!).

The CNN en Español coverage showed the millions in the streets and it was impressive. Millions more were there in spirit.....

I leave for Madrid in 7 days... I was originally going with 2 other people, but my girl friend backed out because she's scared. So its just me and my guy friend on our way to Spain for the first time. Scared.. yeah a little. Am I going to back down ? No... I'm going to beat those bastards at their own game.

Soy una madrilena hoy, y para siempre.

PS ~ Does anyone in Madrid have any suggestions of places we should be extra careful around ? And is the Metro still usable ? We were planning on using the Atocha station to get to Sevilla, Granada, Segovia and Toledo.

Thanks ~ Lelia

That is wild Floroz. Makes one think.

This:



Should also make people think....the idiots that did this horrific attack that is.

"And, Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and compassion that explicitly forbids these kind of actions." This obviously grazy statement made me laugh.

Hello All,

Im from Chicago,IL U.S.A and I would like to say on behalf of myself and my fellow Americans that our thoughts and prayers are with you, and we understand what you are going through. Because Spain backed us up during the gulf war when no one else except the U.K had our back, we will have your backs. God bless America and God bless Spain.

Quintos:

The work of radicals should not be interpreted as something that all muslims support. Please keep your ignorant comments to yourself.

The entire muslim world is radical and third world. How can we tolerate them and say that their are peace full. oh and sure some of them are nice but that doesn't take away from that from the fact that few million are waiting to kill us with bombs come on get real.

Greeting to those Madrid what a great tradejy this is! RECONQUISTA!!

Quintos, your blanketed attacks on Islam are ignorant. Do you realize that Christianity, of which I am part of, is responsible for many, many, MANY deaths under the Crusades?

I have a different approach. No, I don't think Islam is a religion of hate but I DO feel more Islamic leaders and Muslims need to come out and distance themselves from this sort of attack and speak out against it. Their lack of response feeds the hate-mongerors among us. Lord knows, I would speak out against ANY Christian organization doing the same.

It's true that Christians killed many people in the crusades. But these were battles or some thing called a war death is expected in these sorta of things. Christians now are not known for flying planes and planting bombs in trains full of Spanish people now are they? I always believed Spain would get attacked ever since that moron Aznar supported the US in its war against Iraq.

¡Que horror! I learned of this horror yesterday, but the paralysis of pain in my heart was so great that all I could do was pray and cry.
I could not find the words to express my heartfelt pain for your loss dear Madrileños and those who lost loved ones until today.

Please know that while I was here in body, in my heart I am with you in that wonderful city we all love so much, Madrid. Viva el espiritu de coraje de los Madrileños.

My dear Booklady,
We know. We all walked for those who could not be there to walk. Though I walked with but one compadre, we walked for his family in Madrid, our compañeros at work, for our friends and family in the US, and for all those like you who were here in spirit.

Quintos, you keep on blaming Aznar.

PM Aznar is the democratically elected leader of the Spanish nation. He has been delegated with the responsibility of leading Spain's foriegn policy. Now, as is expected, the Spanish People are about to elect his deputy and designated heir into office as Prime Minister. This is a validation of Aznar's policy by the Spanish People, and it would seem that, despite the histrionics of last spring, the people of Spain weren't quite so opposed to U.S. action in Iraq as it would seem. So as you stated, despite your protest to the contrary, it is the 'Spanish People' or 'Spain per se' who have brought this tragedy upon themselves, and not just the U.S. imperialist dupe Aznar. Am i missing something here?

By the way,what makes you think that the Iraq war has anything to do with this? The conventional wisdom of so many of the anti-American protesters was that there is NO PROVABLE LINK between the Iraqi Hussein regieme and the jihadists of bin Laden. So why would these jihadists bother to target Spain for the support given to the USA in removing Hussein? I must be missing something here.

Quintos233, you are, in my opinion, the moron. To blanket all Muslims with the actions of a group/groups of radicals is assinine to say the least. I have done it before, out of anger, but this is never constructive. The only thing the Islamic religion is guilty of, IMO, is not distancing themselves enough from this and other travesties. Of course, this could also be blamed on the media. Is the media actively seeking Muslims that are opposed to such violence and are they giving them any press at all? I don't know, but it's a valid concern. You also might want to research the atrocities caused by Christians, again, which I am, during the crusades. Geez, you sound like David Duke.

Kurt, people like Quintos that label the USA "Imperialists" need to hit the books and check out the definition of "Imperialism". If they did, they'd know how wrong they were. Of course, their egos are so big that they will never admit their error.

Of course not all muslims are like that but its safe to say alot of them are. This simple my opinion and since this message room has freedom of speech or as far as I know it has it im expresing my right to say that most muslims living abroad are not on our side. If you want to think to the contrary and that they are on our side well then what ever fits your grazynes. They are telling us they hate us yet you guys are telling me they arent I don't get it.

BS, Quintos, you remember stating this:

"The entire muslim world is radical and third world."

?????

Stop backpeddling.

Kevin: the Crusades were almost 1000 years ago, so I can't see the relevence of repeatedly mentioning them as some sort of qualifiyer for jihadist mass murder today. I could just as easily say that the Crusades were a counter-offensive against Muslims in response to the Conquisat of Spain and the seige of Vienna. But what possible good would it do?

What I meant by muslim world was the Countries which are of course third world and deprived as most countries are in that region. Are you guys saying that the muslim countries are not thirld world back ward nations and that the most muslims are not terriost this seems grazy and nut talk to me.

Kurt, what I was trying to say is that people in religions have caused atrocities in the past but it doesn't warrant BLANKETING an entire religion for their actions as Quintos is doing. I am a conservative, white, male Christian and have done the same thing in the past as Quintos is doing right now, hopefully I made a better argument, but when 9/11 happened I saw vigils all over the world. I saw Palestinians in the street cheering and waving their hands and at the SAME time I saw two beautiful Palestinian women laying flowers on a makeshift memorial. Should they have been blanketed with the actions of the ones cheering? No.

With that said, I support the war on terror, the leader of Spain, Prime Minister Blair, President Bush, the freeing of the Iraqi people, and every other damn thing that the free nations in the coalition of the willing are doing to protect life and liberty. I am not equating anything, I am trying to argue against stereotyping with facts.

Quintos,

"...I always believed Spain would get attacked ever since that moron Aznar supported the US in its war against Iraq..."

I am proud that Spain stood in support of the US and have great respect for the courage Aznar showed to stand for his convictions despite unrelenting pressure from other European voices. Think beyond this media soundbyte of "the US and its war vs. Iraq." Think of the 22 MILLION Iraqis who can now choose to live as they want to live. Sure there is a transitional government. But soon Iraq will be 100% controlled by Iraqis. For many, this is justification enough for intervention to free the Iraqis. My father lived under both Nazi and Soviet occupation and mother under the Japanese, so never EVER trivialize the human yearning to be free.

And given your blood curdling calls for the heads of all Muslims, you are simply contradicting yourself, my friend. Let's see. Don't you see the fault in your logic? On one hand, the US should have not intervened to free the Iraqi people. Better to leave them to suffer under the unequivocable brutality of Saddam. Yet, let's destroy all Muslims. Huh???

Shelve the media sound bytes, "US War for Oil" "Bush Jr winning one for Bush Sr," etc. These statements trivialize the real sacrifices that men and women made in fighting to free Iraq from Saddam and from the armed terrorist thugs that are still given support in Iraq.

If have sympathy for those guys killing US soldiers in Iraq, then how can you justify your desire to detroy all Muslims??

Instead, put your faith in the pursuit of freedom: of people, of everyday workers, the kind that were robbed of their lives this week. If you shift the paradigm to one of freedom, you will count among your friends Muslims, Christians, Gays, all races and nationalities, and ages and genders, etc. It is a wonderful group. But if your continue to divide along social lines, I guarantee you, you will forever live in a world in which friend and enemy are redefined on practically a daily basis.

No thanks!! Let freedom ring!!

P.S. When I think of Muslims I think of Khalil Gibran. I think of those recounted by Washington Irving in the tales of the Alhambra. I think of those rules in Cordoba who founda way to coexist peacefully with Jews and Gentiles for 200+ years. And yes, I even think of the passion that sought to overthrow a brutal Shah in Iran. In fact, more than perhaps any other religious group, the Muslims need to taste true freedom as they are seriously repressed. But their freedom aan't happen when the they are being squeezed from both sides: Fanatical teachers preaching death and hatred and brutal and corrupt dictatorial regimes.

Of course im deeply sadened by this event and I don't blame muslims. Who can you blame for this the hardest thing to except is that anothere person of course hailing from the middle east as most terriost do did this attrocity and yes their are other terriost from other regions but this particular region called the middle east and the muslim world is natorious for its terriost. Why is this well im not going to delve into this because im smarter then most people and see reality as it is.

Thats your opinion though and im not getting heated though im just stating that most terriost and terriost attacks have been muslim related can we one day mabey agree on this fact that this particular group of people is known for this and that it doesn't exist in other groups of people to the extent to which it does today in the muslim world.

I don't dislike individual muslims all I have done is regonized that these people are terriost.

Come on every one knows that at the air port when they check the purse of a 50 yr old white grandma they are wasting their time. In less the terriost dressed up as a grandma which is possible. They have attacked Spain and the US does that mean all muslims are terriosts. No. But of course it means that obviously a significant percentage of them are. Thats all im saying.

Remove oil and the per capita income of most Muslims in the world is not that much higher than that of sub-Sahran Africans. Yet they live amidst filthy wealth, corruption, hypocrisy, and great indifference. Add to the mix fanattical teachings supported by Saudi $$$, the incessant stories on the plight of the Palestians, the the string of military defeats in the past 30 years--some of them quite humiliating--and one can understand by these people are primed to strike back.

But all this has almost nothing to do with Islam. Islam is being used as a tool. The war with Iraq was not about Islam. The tough words with Iran or Libya had nothing to do with Islam. The pressure on Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with Islam. IN fact, I think there are many lessons we can learn from Islam right here and right now, including piety, rcaial tolerance and the focus on family.

Sure, I agree that targeting Muslims will likely yield more terrorists, but we are talking correlation and not causation as you initially posted.

"Remove oil and the per capita income of most Muslims in the world is not that much higher than that of sub-Sahran Africans. Yet they live amidst filthy wealth, corruption, hypocrisy, and great indifference. Add to the mix fanattical teachings supported by Saudi $$$, the incessant stories on the plight of the Palestians, the the tstring of military defeats in the past 30 years--some of them quite embarassing--and one can understand by these people are primed to strike back.

But all this has almost nothing to do with Islam. That is simply a tool. The war with Iraw was not about Islam. The tough words with Iran or Libya had noting to do with Islam. the pressure on Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with Islam. IN fact, I think there are many lessons we can learn from Islam right here and right now, including piety, rcaial tolerance and the focus on family.

Sure, I agree that targeting Muslims will likely yield more terrorists, but we are talking correlation and not causation as you initially posted. "

It doesn't have to do with Islam every one knows why they hate us and I don't believe it would be beneficial for me to mention why on this post. It's true that most of the governments of that region are corrupted but you see most of these governments are based on muslim law most of the terriost are Muslims the countries they come from and the societys they grow up are Islamic their teaching are Islamic they read the Koran they are Muslims. Trust this all ties together guys every thing has a reason and all goes back to one thing I know this I know what is happening im not blind like most people.

Kevin: Point taken. We're on the same page you and I

Almohad: THANK YOU for mentioning Kahlil Gibran. A great phiposopher no matter what your theological starting point.

And none of this has anything yto do with the gripping pain 200 families in Spain and around the world are feeling now. And the 1400 who pray for good fortune for their wounded loved ones. Let us pray with them now, and offer comfort to those whose loss will always be associated with this time of year, the coming of spring. It has been said that April is the cruelest month. I beg to differ...

What I fail to understand is why these 200 people had to die. It's also grazy that some one would do this to Spanish people I mean come on Spanish getting this?!! Probably cause the Spanish people are accepting we like out siders welcome them in thats are weak point and we paid for it dearly we think we can accept every one but we can't should not as we learned recently.

I hope all the families their with lost loved ones a hope for the best and that the Spaniards living abroad as well of course the ones living in our sacred home land do as well. I hope the injured recover quickly. Of course the people who did this probably got in through the obvious open gate from the middle east to Europe.

The horror in pictures. El mundo.fotografías

Saludos

Quintos, I don't agree at all with your opinion but, you are right, you have the right to express it. The reason you have that right is because you live in this country that allows you right. Remember that not everyone lives in a country that allows freedom of speech or even basic human rights. However, at this time I think that what we need to concentrate on is helping our Spanish friends through the pain that they are suffering because no one, deserves to die in such a tragic way as those poor people did yesterday and as our people did on 9/11. Like the people in the WTC, the people on those trains were just going about their lives trying to make the best of it. Let's pray for peace. Let's pray that God, whatever you conceive him to be, will help the people of Spain through this terrible ordeal. God Bless España and God bless the USA.

Now lets think how did these terriost get into Spain hmmm I wonder if it was really that hard probably the same way all those Morrocians currently destroying Spain are getting in.

well Quintos, I'm off to bed. 5 am in Madrid!

I leave you with one last comment. If you continue to play the game of us vs. them along social lines (you started with Muslims and now I see you are posting the stuff on the Morrocans) and in such a blanket manner, your world will forever be in conflict. And I mean that on a personal level.

In a wealthy area, take Silicon Valley for example, you will see an amazing sort of supereudcated and super accomplished individuals from all over the world and from al races and religions. Lo and behold there are Muslims galore...and even I am sure some Morrocans. Enough real education, good environment, good and steady income and respect, and we all live in peace.

According to your world, we should blindly turn the screws on ALL Muslims and Morrocans?? Would not only be catastrophic for Spain both in terms of its economy (think post 1492 and the terrible loss of talent in Spain that came to the fore after all the pilfering of silver and gold from the Americas had been exhausted), but it would lead to a tremendous increase in violence in Spain.

Dude, don't go down that road. Join a Morrocan organization. Volunteer along side Muslims. Introduce them to your friends and your leisure activities. Leanr about them and share your world. Soon you will seem them as individuals--some worth befriending and yes, some worth jailing or deporting. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...

To differentiate will cost Spain $$$ and cost you brain power as you will need to think hard on a case-by-case basis...as it should be. After all, they are here to stay and it is best to treat them in a way that IMPROVES Spain.

Good night. Un beso al estado de California en donde naci hace muchisimos años!

1492 was the begining of the Spanish Empire and our golden age are you grazy this signifies the greatest times in our countries history. This is when Spain founded the new world this is when our true history begins this is when Spain was born. Which in case you don't remember we fought for 700yrs to kick these very same people out of Spain.

"And given your blood curdling calls for the heads of all Muslims, you are simply contradicting yourself, my friend. Let's see. Don't you see the fault in your logic? On one hand, the US should have not intervened to free the Iraqi people. Better to leave them to suffer under the unequivocable brutality of Saddam. Yet, let's destroy all Muslims. Huh???"
Alhomoda you posted this earlier. It's true that the US freed the Iraqi people from Saddam but did the US free the Spanish people from Franco I see a fault in your character we aren't out to save the muslims from their own strife which they have created we are not responsible for the third world poverty. US was not responsible to save Spain from Franco why sould we be responsible in saving the Iraqies from Saddam we aren't. Im stating my opinion the US Europe and every ONE other then the middle easterners them selves the Jews and Muslims sould be not involved in their politics its not our problem. It not our fault half the world lives in poverty in order to "fix" this we would have to disturbute all of the wealth of US and the rest of the modern first world nations to the rest world which we aren't willing to do so why help them they are still going to be back wards and third world beacuse they are obviously incapable of setting any thing more than that. All of you on this board are going to keep on chatting on ur PC waching your TV driving your Cars who cares about the rest of the world Isreal and Muslims its their problem not ours who cares we can't do any thing about it any ways and we are un willing because we keep our right full wealth to our selves which we whole heartidely deserve. Are you guys telling me that sould give all our money to Sub Saharan Africans cause they deserve it no we are un willing to do that we continue living in OUR wealth which they are incapable of creating.

While we sit here arguing who's poltically correct, more people are dying all over the world. Some from hunger, others at the hands of dictators, and in Iraq, at the hands of more terrorists. And we sit and argue over differences that should be set aside because they mean nothing compared to what's happened.

This morning I received a phone call from a friend who is a teacher in Wisconsin. He was in tears, and sobbing. He needed to talk to someone. He told me about a young man he'd helped make it through high school because the system didn't recognize he was dyslexic until he was a junior. He tutored the young man, and he ended up graduating 6th in a class of 83 students.

After graduation, he went on to college. It took him five and a half years to get his degree, but he got it. Because he couldn't get scholarships, he joined the Army National Guard to pay his way. Upon graduation from college in May, he went on active duty with the Army for training. Recently he was shipped over to Iraq. Yesterday he was killed by terrorists disguised as Iraqi policemen, while he was helping an Iraqi woman and her children get on a bus.

He never had a chance to live his life, or to have poltical views. He never got a chance to marry and raise a family. He never enjoyed the fruits of his labors in education. He's gone. Murdered, while doing a good deed. He did not look at the Iraqi woman and her children as being an enemy.

Terrorists have no religion even though they say they do. They have no God, they have no soul, and they have no heart. They are terrorists, and of no more value than a rat that infests a sewer system. We cannot classify all people of a race, or religion as being like them, we have to deal with them seperately.

Its time to end this political debate. There are 200 dead in Madrid. The people have spoken through their demonstrations, with over half the population standing on streets, along roadways, and anywhere they were, observing silence in memorial to those who died. We need to lay down our disagreements at this point and look at the common good. It's a time for healing, not arguing poltical ideologies.

Wolf

Wolf this isn't completely about political ideologies this is a struggle between what western civilization has created and the failure of advancement in most of the rest of the world they are behind us.

--Quintos, "What I fail to understand is why these 200 people had to die. It's also grazy that some one would do this to Spanish people I mean come on Spanish getting this?!!"

Are you saying the Americans deserved what THEY got? NO ONE!!!!! DESERVED THIS BS!

What I meant by the statement was not that Americans deserved the 9-11 im sorry if you interpeted it that way NO HUMAN BEING DESERVES THAT PERIOD I WOULDNT WANT IT HAPPENING TO ME WOULDNT WANT IT HAPPENING TO ANY ONE ELSE (EXCEPT THE TERRIOST(s) THAT DID THE ATTACK I WOULDN'T MIND MANY THINGS HAPPENING TO THEM) You did kinda plant words into my mouth but its ok. I guess we can argue that it was some how implied but I didn't mean to imply to it to what percieved to mean it mean I meant that Spanish people are nice and usually Spain and the Spanish has not held bad reasoning toward Muslims they didn't even regonize Isreal for a while and they didn't support the Iraq thats what I meant by it sorry.

Quintos233-You should stop posting. Your command of English is not sufficient to make your point on this forum.

Quintos233-You should stop posting. Your command of English is not sufficient to make your point on this forum.

Its true that my typing has not been exact to the English language but I believe you can still read albeit perhaps skipping over the grammar mistakes so far my statements have been far more intelegent than your attack on my grammatical skills.If you don't want to critisize or slander my absolutely true statements I have made above then why post at all.

I apologize to the members of this message board. Free speech should never be abridged.

Does anyone else understand this person?

After reviewing my posts I must say your right Mongo they might be a tad easier to read now.

Over all the lesson im trying to teach is that the modern middle eastern nations and their people are third world and thats why the attack an kill massively because they aren't as advanced as us yet.

Quintos,

The reason to go after terrorist is to stop them from attacking in the first place from killing people. We as ordinary citizens will probally never know the whole story when it comes to terrorism because most of the information our countries have is classified and it is classified for a reason. I believe that the governments would be able to give a stronger case on why they decided to go after terrorism if only they had the chance. But it isn't worth giving out classified information. A lot of the information wich is probally help keeping us as safe as possible. I read over your post and can kind of see what you are trying to say. It may just be that you are a lot like me and have trouble expressing yourself in writing. Where you trying to make the point that the US can't always do everything and be the leader in every bad situation? If that is the case that you where trying to make then I can understand that particular point. In my humble opinion I felt Azner(sp?) made the best choice possible for his country. As a leader his first and foremost responsibility is to protect and take care of his people. If no leader ever had to make hard choices in the interests of his/her country then why have leaders in the first place. There is a lot of intelligence that we will never hear for many many years and we may not even hear about it in our life times. Thats just how stuff works. My dad served as an officer in the army for over 20 years and there are still things that I am not allowed to know for over 20 years he will probally be passed away before I will ever be able to know anything. Of course everyone or just about everyone probally wants to know what they (governments) know out of curiosity but it is not worth the risk of national security and the lives of many soldiers fighting for there lives. And sure we can't help everyone and every single country but we can atleast try our best to help the world as a whole.

My grammers not perfect either:)

Stop political discussions please, they are out of place and moment

Living in Spain and in Madrid I thought I had to share with you how the ambience is now.

Yesterday 2,300,000 persons took Madrid's streets (can you imagine Plaza de Colón filled, and a sea of people covering all the streets from Colón to Plaza de Cibeles, to Plaza de Neptuno and Plaza de Atocha? can you imagine all the streets heading to Pl. Colón filled with people?). Yesterday 11,400,000 persons all over Spain took the streets.
1,500,000 in Barcelona
700,000 in Sevilla
500,000 in Canary Islands
400,000 in Zaragoza
400,000 in Vigo
400,000 in Málaga
350,000 in Cádiz
350,000 in Oviedo
300,000 in Bilbao (the Basque Country)
300,000 in Murcia
180,000 in Baleares
150,000 in La Coruña
150,000 in Extremadura
120,000 in Jaén
100,000 in Vitoria (the Basque Country)
100,000 in San Sebastian (the Basque Country)
100,000 in Logroño
85,000 in Cantabria
85,000 in Pamplona, Valladolid and Santander
65,000 in Orense
40,000 in Las Palmas de Gran Canaria and Lugo
35,000 in Ceuta (half the population)
30,000 in Melilla (half the population)

But also in Europe:
6,000 in Brussels (Belgium)
2,000 in Paris (France)
2,000 in Berlin (Germany)
1,000 in Lisbon (Portugal)
1,000 in Ginebra (Switerland)
1,000 in Helsinki (Finland)
300 in London (United Kingdom)

And all over the world:
800 in New York (USA)
500 in Washington (USA)
Mexico, Peru, Honduras, Beijing,...

Think about it: We knew that by attending the demonstrations we were an easy target for another terrorist attack; everybody commented it. But people went; the metro was filled of people (to the point that some exits near Pl. Colón were blockaded and people couldn't get out of them), lots of parents with their kids (even babys of less than 1 year old). It was raining heavily, people was wet, but they were there.

Between my family and my friends only my grandmothers (99 years-old and 93 years-old) didn't attend.

Those who know Spain know that we don't easily show signs of patriotism. Yesterday most people worn a spanish flag with a black ribbon. I can see from my room various buildings, and people has hang spanish flags and white flags with black ribbons.

I don't know anyone who has not cried in the past two days. People is sad. Yesterday a friend of mine almost started to cry in front of me. I have cried.

But people is equally determined not to let this alter our lives, we will face terrorism (no matter it is ETA or Al-Qaeda) and will defeat it.

Tomorrow we have legislative elections, and will go massively to vote. They won't destroy our democracy.

It is incredible the support we have received from all over Spain and abroad. Very impressive. We have just to see this same Board with more than 200 posts. We can only be thankful.

From Madrid

Fernando

Thankyou for putting the focus back where it needs to be Fernando. People all over the world gathered yesterday, even here at the university of illinois, a university of only 36,000. We had a group yesterday gathered in silence for an hour of around 100 students including at least 50 spaniards (basques, madrileños, catalans, from everywhere), as well as students like myself who studied there and fell in love with the country, and many others who simply felt moved to do something. Know that we are behind you 100%.
Kelly

What are peacefull demostrations going to do. We need to start locking the doors to Europe so that these type of third world people stop coming in their garbage.

Quintos, I don't know why you are that sure it was Al-Qaeda.

Anyway, it is (in part) that "third-world garbage" who have died. A dozen moslems have died in the attacks, and 60 more are injured in hospitals. Most of the victims were workers, and a significant number of them were inmigrants.

I bet it was ETA, but I really don't care who was. They just deserve be in jail.

Fernando

ETA/ Al Qaeda working together mabey? I think its just Al Qaeda though. In less ETA is trying to set it up to make it look like Al Qaeda seems a little bite far fetched but possible.

You are right Fernando, now is the time to mourn those Madrileños that lost their lives as a result of the tragedy of last Thursday. Your loss Madrid is our loss.

I place myself in the shoes of those mothers who had to identify the remains of their children, and it breaks my heart. That all the promise held in the lives of these 200 people ceased is unbelievable.

This is a time to mourn and to pray.

Fernando...your last posting was very moving and touched me. This is what we need right now, not insensitive ravings of quasi racism!

Quintos...Shame On You. Your comments are inappropriate and once again show your lack of maturity. Instead of whipping up fear and contempt for a group of people and suggesting to lock up Europe from the savages (my words) of the third world, try looking at ways of resolving issues without the need for hatred. Yes, Quintos...you may not think it is, but it's there, though you may not realize it or refuse to think of yourself as racist! Your comments on various issues on this board bear that out. Am I saying you're a racist? No, by no means, so please don't misconstrue my message. What Im trying to say is for you to be more aware of Your sensitivity towards others before you start throwing stones in the name of patriotism!

Let's stay focused on giving our support to the people of Spain and to the victims in this time of grief!

No im not a racialist many people in SOuthern European countries have their share of Arab blood but their not muslims this is along social lines not racial any way continue with your conversation ill stay out of it. I just thought it was important to clear that up. I guess my out right anger at muslims is partly due to my anger in 3/11 and the immagration policy which I dislike I dislike the political parties the EU they way they run things they way they import people from the Arab world on the basis money I dislike how the choices resulted in the death of Spaniards thats why im mad and I guess I have to have some on to blame am I not blaming the right people I guess I sound pretty arrogant though attack other people of a religion on this board while not mentioning much about the suffering and lose of life that has happened in Spain my condolences.

Quintos,
I though a night's rest would have helped organzied your thoughts, but apparently not. When you choose such an absolutist stance and lump all people together you come across as being incredibly naive and wholly inconsistent. Are not Basque terrorists Spanish? To a foreigner who has lost their child to ETA bombings, should he/she forever think that all Spanish are terrorists? Of course not! They can choose to use their intelligence to differentiate good from evil.

Why you don't do the same is a matter of choice--your choice. You are choosing the easy way out. It is so much easier to throw blanket statements around. Requires the intelligence of a gnat. Yes, let Spain kick out all foreigners. Notice the word ALL. No more tourism. No more technology transfer. No more international cooperation. No mroe cheap immigrant work force. But how far back do you want to go? Say an extra generation. There go another 10% of the population. Stupidity upon stupidity. Easy isn't it. Ultra easy to enforce. But the cost to Spain would be beyond belief: economically, politically and socially.

Soon after all the foreigners are gone and Spain is shunned by the world community and operates as a closed economy (an autarky), you will find, lo and behold, that terrorists and criminals will still exist and yep, they will all be Spanish.

I grew up near San Francisco and San Jose, which have incredibly high percentages of foreign national and foreign-born Americans. Our crime rate, despite free flow of guns, is lower than most European cities. Why? Our local culture is one of peace, tolerance and understanding. I feel in my heart Spain is just as welcoming.

I take it yours is the passion of youth, however mmisplaced). I know it can be hard to reason in times like these, but the truth is always in intelligent applications of analytical reasoning upon real data. It is hard, but act intelligently. Deal swiftly with those seeking to destroy Spain, but treasure all those who work 24/7 to improve Spain.

The people that helped to improve Spain were the Romans,Visigoths,Celts and Iberians the people that are coming now are they contributing an equal amount as the Romans and Visigoths and other Europeans of the past have done I don't think so.... I mean they sell pirated CD's I guess they provide cheaper music but can that compare to the architecture and culture that the Romans and other gave I don't think so. And yes the Arabs of the past contributed some things too but... They aren't Europeans we don't want an islamic Arabian Spain. Can Gypsie architecture compare to Roman architecture?!!

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=av_IC0DLgdDg&refer=top_world_news The people that did this were caught as usuall they are third world immagrants with of course Spanish papers.

And Alhomoda ask any Basque and I gurantee most of thme will tell you they are not Spanish.

My goodness Quintos, Spain is so much more than what you selectively describe!! The ;argest tourist attractions--a HUGE % source of Spanish jobs and income directly from the contributions made by los moros: the Alhambra, La MEzquita, and Andalucia. The two other regions: Catalunya and San Sebastian/Navarra.

Spain is like the US, a wonderful mix that reflects contributions from many, many people.

You should print out these statement s of yours and read them from time to time. Perhaps in calmer times you understand how awful your statements are and how ignornat of SPain's history, past and present.

If all Morrocans were as horrible as you say, then the appropriate policy response would be to kick them out. But yet even the PP would not dare to do such things. Why? Because your economy depends on their cheap labor and that of all the central and South Americans that are all over Lavapies and Legazpi, where I was walking around today.

As in the US, immigrasnt bashing bespeaks an incredible ignornace over how economies actually function. We don't see Spanish maids, nannies, garbage men, construction workers, retail sales clerks, etc. nowadays, so we. These jobs are done by immigrants who rarely do much complaining--they are too busy feeding their families.

So please, study your history and learn some basic economics. Perhaps then you will see that Spain has always been a country of immigrants. ANd her glory days will always bve those in which they looked outwardly rather than inwardly.

One final point: study your history. The 100 year period after 1492 was NOT the glory days of Spain. Please. It was the beginning of a great decline from which Spain is only recently emerging. the pillaging of Latin America led to one of history's greatest squandering of wealth. There was no renaissance. Just great concentrations of wealth and the brutal dominance of the Catholic Church.

Spain is at its finest today. Great growth. Far mroe evenly distributed wealth. More global respect than ever before.

If you were a Spainsh peasant in 1500, your life would have miserable and brutal. Today? I look around and see a great joie d'vivre. A country in love with reading. A country more open to globalization than ever before. Exciting, really. The Spain of the 1500s built numerous buildings and spent its money on ostentation that benefitted only the egos of the rich and entitled. You would have to go backl to the Corbova of 1000-1200 to see such wonderful developments...

Quintos, what would it take for you to shut up? Please, while you are free to express your opinions, can't you wait until all these mourning subside?

I was in Madrid last week and was horrified to see what happened yesterday. I am back in the states now, and I have been glued to the news for the past 48 hours. All I can think of is how much I wish I was there, to show my support, not just as an american, but as a Madrileno, because we are ALL in this together. I wish they could feel our deepest support and sympathy.

Atocha, (and the other stations), will be even dearer in our hearts in the months and years to come. As we travel in and out, we will never forget, but it WILL be dearer to us, and we will value more the precious and inexplicable ambiance and excitement that traveling through Spain gives us.

We can't let these cowards win. If they were so "brave", they would not hide in the shadows.

This will not go unpunished. The damage is done and we will never forget, but more than ever........we need to stay the course, travel, and enjoy like never before.

Spain is precious, and its people are warmer then any on this planet. And after this, Spain is more special than ever. We all stand behind you in support and love for freedom.

We will never forget.

Peter

I am still SO sad for what happened in Spain.....Spain is my second home and my heart is broken from this horrible tragedy

And one more comment, to Quintos who says Arabs have not contributed anything to European culture......Spain is filled with Arab influence and that is what makes Spain beautiful and unique.....my family is from Granada and taking just one look at the ALhambra, one can tell what a significant and beautiful contribution Arabs made to Spain!!!

My thoughts and prayers are with you tonight in Madrid and throughout Spain. I'm reminded of the outcry of the poet Cesar Vallejo, "Spain take this cup from me!" Indeed, you are again going through a passion of your own.

I urge you to hold back judgement until you've considered all possible perpetrators. Could ETA really have done this? As for Al Qaeda (whoever they really are, whatever they do), why this, why now? Would the CIA and the Mossad have more to gain--with elections coming up in both Spain and the USA? Think. Don't unthinkingly become the "useful idiots" of a new, more subtle form of fascism. Have reports of the death of the Generalissimo been slightly exaggerated? What I am saying, plainly, is that you dear people must be as concerned with threats from within as with theats from without. For it is not in the least inconceivable that the events of 9/11 were a kind of Reichstag fire, and that the events of 3/11 are now the same. Do not be manipulated. Let's not jump to hasty conclusions, but let's consider all of these things before there are more dead bodies in the streets of our burning cities. Before we lose more of our loved ones.

I pray the Lord Jesus protect you from all threats both without and within--a prayer were are all so in need of in these troubled days.

Las simpatia mas profundas.

EL DIO LE BENEDICE.

--V.R.

Good point Vinceramos.

From my point of view, we can't still conclude it was on or another terrorist band.

It seems due to recent informations that it was Al-Qaeda, or some type of a new moroccian terrorist band.

To answer if ETA was capable of something like this, let me say: yes, they are capable of something like this or worse.

In these bombings 200 Kg of explosives have been used. A week ago an ETA van was discovered on its way to Madrid (two ETA terrorists captured). It had 500 Kg of explosives.

On 2003 Christmas night (what a day to kill!) ETA members were discovered in Madrid's Chamartin Rail Station with suitcases filled with explosives, with the objective of bombing trains or the whole rail station.

Lastly, two years ago, two vans with a ton (1,000 Kg) of explosives were captured on their way to Madrid. It is suspected they wanted to blow up the whole Barajas Airport, or Torre Picasso (the highest tower in Madrid, 90 stores).

I have no fear, and I think that, althought people is very sad for what has happened, we are not frightened by these killers. I'm completely sure that they will end in prison for the rest of their days.

We are of course not free of further bombings from ETA or radical islamic terrorists, but we have to move ahead and make every possible effort to defeat them.

Fernando

Hi All,

Interesting, but (not so?) witty, banter going back and forth... Quintos, you have said some strong words. Kevin, Kurt, you have made some good points. Fernando, Booklady, Wolf, and some others, you have big hearts.

The elections are going on today and it seems like Al-Cowarda, or some auspice of, is going to get the credit for the attacks, which translates to Rajoy and the PP taking some heat for their support of Aznar.

The mood seems a little somber, for good reason, and I know that after all this commotion I just want to sleep straight thru for a couple of days.

I watched a Jackie Chan movie on TVE-2 last night from my apartment on c/Rios Rosas, for lack of desire to go anywhere. I´ve done so much walking, including to the bombing sites. I ended up taking Norwegian and Dutch journalists to the sites because I wanted to see too. I translated a little for them, and also gave them quotes for their respective newspapers as an American in Madrid.

I am so sad, and *SO* angry about what has taken place on 11-M. Say what you want about who is responsible; Aznar for supporting the US-led coalition into Iraq, Bush, etc...

We must all understand that the congregating of, meeting of, planning by, action upon, by militant muslims right under our noses (Muhammed Atta, for example, and his cronies here in Madrid) merits our attention and attempts to thwart their ability to succeed. No country can allow terrorists to thrive in their cities, as though their cities are petri dishes for some strange strain to be wrought and wreek havoc.

Failure to go face-to-face with terrorists only encourages them to do what they will. And pissing them off by figuring them out only ecourages them to do it more, so how the hell do you win against that?? You call it what it is and you face it! The bully can only push you around in the schoolyard so long before you must fight back.

To the Spanish people: You have suffered 30 years of ETA threats and actions. You have had almost one year free of ETA enacted murders (I think..?), which is really good, in a comparative sense. I am SO sorry this has happened in your city, Madrid. I am still in disbelief... I am so sad, and SO angry about this...

If you believe it is America´s ´fault,´ then I am sorry. The USA did not invent terrorism, nor do we want it either. But we will not abandon you! Our countries have crossed a line together, and I believe we will be with you for long haul.

Again, I am so sorry...

andrew

HAHAHAHAH of course this is not Americas fault. Those peoples faults and Aznar.

How in the hell is it Aznar's fault? Because he supported the United States on the war in Iraq? You can't possibly be that ignorant.

I believe it is Aznar fault because he got Spain involved the middle east conflict and made Spain a target for this type of terriosm. He sould have followed in the foot steps of France and Germany. Just my opinon of course.

Come on, Kevin (et.al.). NO NAME CALLING! Your comment to Quintos233 of "You can't possibly be that ignorant." is out-of-bounds, no matter his I.Q.. Please exercise caution.

Come on, Kevin (et.al.). NO NAME CALLING! Your comment to Quintos233 of "You can't possibly be that ignorant." is out-of-bounds, no matter his I.Q.. Please exercise caution.

No matter what his IQ are you saying my IQ is not all that high Madridman lol you insulted me worse then Kevin its ok though I know im right and thats enough for me.

Quintos, is Aznar to blame for the March 11 bombing or are the terrorists that perpretated the bombing really to blame? Do you really believe that by stradling the fence like France and Germany, that Spain would not get terorized? Didn't Al'Qaeda already zero in on Spain for the loss of their Islamic territories in 1492?

The U.S. thought it could remain apart from the evils visited on other countries during WWII, and see what happened to us.

During the beginning of World War II, when many countries where being taken over by Nazi Germany, Poland, France, Belgium, etc, and the British were desperately asking for the U.S. to enter the war as an ally, many American's felt that staying out of the war was the prudent thing to do. Appeasement was the word of the day. Yes, many were pacifists, many were isolationists, and many just did not care what happened elsewhere. Until... Pearl Harbor.

People must defend their freedom. It's not free. I don't blame Aznar, I blame the terrorists for their deed in Madrid on 11-March.

Appeasement does not works with terrorists. They just bide their time.

Quintos,

It was only a matter of time until Spain was hit by a terrorist attack from al Qaeda. Attempts in France, Germany, and the UK are already fact. All that was left was Spain and Italy. They don't show any concerns as to what your position is when it comes to the Iraq issue.

Take Germany for an example, who fought against us going into Iraq. Had the German police not uncovered what would have been a massive attack against them, it would have been even worse than what happened in Madrid. That was planned after the Germans tried to stop the US from going into Iraq, so why would anyone believe that Spain was immune from their wrath if Germany was still considered a target of opportunity?

The simple fact is that al Qaeda's anger is directed at everyone in the Western world, and in fact anyone who doesn't live under the subjugation of the fundamentalist Muslim cloak of government. That means everyone is an infidel, including their own Muslim cousins, who aren't fundamentalists. Their actions, and their allegiances, only extend as far as sects like the Taliban, because they would do as bid by the fundamentalist theories.

What bothers me most about the timing of the attack was that it was done at such a time as to discredit the government of Spain, by making people want to believe it wouldn't have happened had Spain not sided with the US. In reality, they weren't a bit concerned about anything else, other than affecting the elections today. The human toll meant nothing, because those who died were nothing more than infidels.

Wolf

Well said BookLady!! I could not agree more.

"Those who fail to heed the lessons of history, are doomed to repeat it".

We cannot do anything but take the fight to them. If not, it will be too late, and THEY will win.

Freedom is the only way. The alternative cannot possibly be what we want for our children and their future. Everyone should be free to live life freely. For those that want to scare us, and terrorize us, you are only showing your weakness and desire to OPPRESS.......shame on you! From Webster's: Oppress: to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority
2 : to burden spiritually or mentally : weigh heavily upon.

There is ONE answer. FREEDOM for every human being. Education and tolerance is the vehicle. Just my thoughts.

Quintos, don't insult the host of this site.

After all, it is because of his hard work in creating this site that you have a voice here. AND, he too is entitled to his opinion.

Is Aznar responsible for the 3-11 bombings?
Not directly, but yes indirectly, and that's the thinking of the majority of Spain.
Spain has decided, Aznar has been fired.
That's how democracy works. Spain thinks that Aznar should have not involved our beloved country with the US in Iraq.
You can agree with us or not, but WE have decided, it's a fact.
And on top of that, Aznar's government has tried some fascist tricks to manipulate us in the last days. They have failed!

Y... Quintos, que pena das macho!

I thank Anzar for support in helping remove a REAL facist from power, Saddam Hussein. The victory that Al-Q had in murdering innocent Spaniards and topling the government will not bring back that mass-murderer.

(When bombings now become standard fare with elections with their success in Spain, I will not blame Spaniards the way many of them blame their own or the US, for the killings. I will blame the murderers, no-one else)

Fup

I do respect the people from USA more than you respect the 'Spaniards', it's obvious. If you suggest that yesterday we were afraid , you don't get it.

I know enough not to stereo-type anybody, especially in a 42% to 38% vote. But changing the result of an election to what is desired by those that murdered your people does not exactly indicate a profile in courage.....

No matter what the intention, that was the result.

Fup

Ok, I don't get it. Many people in the world think Iraq had no direct or indirect ties to terrorism, even though Saddam was sending checks to homicide bombers in Israel, and didn't understand why the US removed Saddam from power after 12 years of snubbing his nose at the UN's numerous resolutions.

Ok, I have one question, if Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism, neither directly nor indirectly, why now are you guys saying that the attack on 3/11 DID have something to do with the war in Iraq? It seems some of you are speaking out of both sides of your mouths.

Very well said Booklady. People also must remember that the United States was never attacked by Germany yet we declared war on Germany as well. A nation can't defend itself from only direct attacks and expect to survive, it must defend itself from ALL attacks, to include the allies of the enemy that attacked it's borders and cities.

I am not a Republican or a Democrat. I am a Libertarian. I have decided to take the Republican's side on this issue in the States this one time because I feel the Libertarian's policy of isolationism is one that would put this, or any other country, at great danger. Guys, you can't close up your doors and think that it will keep you safe. There comes a time when you must take a stand and defend your right to be.

OK, for those who don't (want to) get it:
Iraq didn't have links to terrorists BEFORE the invasion.
It was the invasion what caused terrorists to BE INTERESTED in the Iraqui 'cause'. And to target the allies among which unfortunately Spain...WAS.
Fortunately the new gov. will withdraw troops from Iraq in 2 months.
And for those that think that yesterday's election was a sign of cowardy, didn't you watch your beloved CNN Fri 15 at 19h CET?
That's all I have to say.
Don't worry, I wont call you cowards when KERRY wins the election.

Iraq did have ties to terrorism before the invasion. An Iraqi top intelligence official met with Atta in Prague before 9/11 and Saddam was paying Homicide bombers in Israel. Saddam knew he couldn't succeed in a frontal assault so, as any other weaker military would do, he decided guerrilla tactics, Ie. funding terrorists. He may have been running Iraq as a secular state, one that is night and day to the religious fundamentalist terrorists, but, as they say, an enemy of my enemy is my friend. Red China and the USSR were our allies during WWII due to a common goal.

Thanks Kevin, in response to your question:
Logic indicates that there was a connection does it not? The peaceniks here in the States pushed the concept that there was absolutely no connection between Al Qaeda and Saddan Hussein. Well here is your answer, they very clearly stated that they were punishing Spain for their involvement in Iraq.

Of course, you can put your head in the ground and hope nothing else happens, but we must remember that Osama still believes that the issue of "Andalucia" is still unresolved. Spain is involved, whether it wants to or not.

Regarding the elections: First we must remember that not all the Spanish people voted for Zapatero, many believe as we do that there is more at stake here. The war is worldwide, and Al Qaeda is bringing it to our doors.

Second, the vote for PSOE really reflected the Spanish feelings toward a party that they long have felt alienated. As noted before most of the Spaniards were angry at Spain joining the coalition in the first place. Then when there was the misinformation about the perpretarators, ETA being named as the initial perpretrator, ans later finding out otherwise, that angered some voters into changing their votes.

I would not call the Spaniards cowards. I personally think that they are making a mistake. They and the other Europeans must understand that these folks want the utter destruction of our culture.

Nobody called anyone in Spain "cowards" - just that the election handed the terrorists another victory. That's not disputible.

However, if there's a terrorist incident in the US just before the election you'll see a major difference in the US electorates reaction. Bush will win by a landslide.

I wish marches alone and good intentions would stop these murderers, but they won't. But maybe this appeasement will take them off your doorstep for awhile.

Fup

Fup

"just that the election handed the terrorists another victory"

That IS disputible because it's not true.
It makes me terribly sad that someone thinks like this.
Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY had in mind the terrorists' will when they headed for the election.
There were endless rows of electors with things clear in their mind.
If we had not voted, THEN the terrorists would have won.
BUT WE VOTED, and had the highest number of votes of the last 25 years.
Aznars gov has made a lot of mistakes, and it has been punished, that's how it works.
If you don't believe in Spain's democracy, then I'll keep my right not to believe in America's.
And I will remind you how George W won his election.

Yes, Bush WON the election after the Democrats TRIED to steal it. I know, I know, you hear differently. Of course, you hear differently from Democratic sources. Al Gore tried to have military absentee ballots thrown out; did you hear that?

Well, OK.
I don't want to talk about US inner problems, it's Spain what we are talking about.
The matter is that you are suggesting that yesterday's election was influenced by the terrorists, and that is something I won't admit.
Terrorism has been around here for 30 years, and that hasn't undermined our will.

The election has been influenced by the former gov's errors and attitude.
The only thing that has influenced ME and SOME MILLIONS is the pathetic intend of the gov. to put the blame on ETA for electoral reasons.
It's the use and abuse of the media.
And of course, the participation on an ILLEGAL war.

Aznar is the only one who was influenced by the terrorists, and that's why he has lost the election.
Spanish electors aren't sheep.

Thanks God, our troops will soon return.

When did I say that? You have me confused with someone else.

....and the war in Iraq is far from Illegal. We, and the coalition of the willing, did what the UN didn't have the intestinal fortitude to do.

Quite true!
It was not for you, Kevin...

In my opinion, the winner of the Spanish elections has been Al-Qaeda. I think Ben Laden will be very happy today with the Spanish results.

We, the Spaniards, will we be now safer with the new socialist goverment? Or perhaps will we be more vulnerable on islamic or ETA terrorism?

But this is democracy and the people have spoken. Personally I believe this is a step backwards, and I expect the new goverment works better than the conservative goverment that has just left.
Islamic terrorism is a danger for everyone in western societies because we have different cultures and all we are unfaithful.

So in your opinion, millions of electors have voted Bin Laden.
In your opinion PP was the ONLY choice possible, wasn't it?
A biased and sad opinion, IMHO.
Now I'm glad that PP is out of business.

Say what you will deibid, the terrorists wanted the defeat of the present government and they got it. And you gave it to them.

Your new leader has said that his number one priority is to fight terrorism - how? By announcing that Iraq was a mistake and he is pulling the troops out -

I bet THAT got Al Q shaking in their boots!

What's the next great step? - Forming a coalition government with them???

Fup

Do you guys think Al Queda hates you because you supported the United States? Or because you are a free society that allows freedom of Religion?

Face it guys, Al Queda hates everything about freedom. Take a look at Afghanistan before we took out the Taliban. Look at Saudi Arabia who, in my opinion, is NOT our ally as it is my opinion they play both sides against each other. They act like our ally and then keep their people impoverished and illiterate and blame the civilized world for their position in life when, in fact, it is the billionaire leaders in Saudi that want to keep and retain their power and wealth. Saudi doesn't allow women to even drive a car and face it, there is no freedom in many of the Muslim countries. Liberal stances are meant to change. I have stated that I am conservative, but that is in the United States only. These countries, much like the United States did when fighting imperial rule by England, have to adopt liberal policies of change. Of course, the reason I am conservative now is that I think we, in the States, have come to a place in time where we don't NEED to change anything to any great extent anymore. I am happy with the United States. IMO, the ONLY way to route out terrorists is to take away their bases of operation. Places like Saudi? Well, we need to stop supporting them so much as human right's violations never need to be rewarded......much like the United Nations did when they appointed the Sudan, Communist China, and Libya to the Human Right's Council. That alone should wake people up to the fact the the United Nations is nothing more than a farce that deals in appeasement and "feel good" policies. It is a vehicle for the less-developed countries to blame their woes on the developed. Is that ever constructive? When they should be looking inwards, they instead blame others. That's good if you want to enslave your people with the notion that their problems are always caused by someone else. ....but it's assinine to say the least. Sadly, it happens every day.

and how do you know what the hell terrorists wanted?
Do you call uncle Ladden every evening?
Remember that the present gov. is as legal and as democratic as the former, and that it's the sovereign people of the Kingdom of Spain who decides wether OUR troops stay iside or outside of Iraq.
And the US should have never asked our country for troops, in the first place. Who's the US gov. to do that? The UN and the NATO are the only possible ways, and it should have been like that all the way.
The present Spanish gov. is doing what should have been done months ago.
And the terrorist have nothing to do with that. They only kill. That's why 201 brothers are dead.

Do you think that pulling out will ensure safety? How about the Basque Separatists? Should you just give them what they want so that they will stop attacking? I know it's comparing apples to oranges, but you can't negotiate with terrorists. You can either A) Fight them on your home soil or B) Take the war to them. I will, as a former soldier, always choose B. I was trained to fight, my countrymen and yours, unless they were in the military, were not. Civilians aren't equipped to handle what the military is/was trained to do. You guys would have to close all doors, suspend all trade with the US and other members of the coalition, and become an isolationist country to stop them from attacking. Then, you could buy some time, but only a little. Like I said, we weren't in WWII, but were attacked because we supported England and cut oil to the Imperialist Japan. Should we have boosted up the oil shipments to Japan just so they could plunder the Pacific and her islands and nations? Sometimes you have to take a stance.

The US asked Spain as friends and allies. The UN - even NATO are ineffectual to action without US leadership. They even left Bosnia & Kosovo, which was on their own doorstep, hanging.

Doing the right thing isn't always popular.

And Al Q didn't make it clear what they want? - You're being silly.

Fup

Well, the NATO is that precisely: the official list of 'friends and allies'
Why did the US act on their own?
Because Iraq did never attack any ally. So, the war was not legal.
Yes, the terrorists must be attacked and stopped forever...
read carefully...
L E G A L L Y.
And I know the intentions of the terrorist attack on Madrid (other than terrorizing), but the fact is that the people of Spain has freely and democratically chosen.
And we don't really mind if that's what the terrorists wanted or not. That's the point, it's what WE WANT, not what they want.
We are a sovereign country and we have chosen because I REPEAT the former gov. has made a lot of errors, going to Iraq being one of them.

....but we didn't act on our own.

>>Remember that the present gov. is as legal and as democratic as the former, and that it's the sovereign people of the Kingdom of Spain who decides wether OUR troops stay iside or outside of Iraq.
And the US should have never asked our country for troops, in the first place. Who's the US gov. to do that? <<

Oh, the logic of the left astounds me. So, Spain is a sovereign country, as is the US. Got it. But then why can't the US ask sovereign Spain as an act of international goodwill to join the fight on an international menace--i.e., Saddam Hussein? And why can't a sovereign Spain agree?

No one has implied that the recent election in Spain had an "undemocratic" result. In fact, it is that the majority of Spaniards choose to be cowards and appeasers of terrorists that is so disheartening. Go your own way, France. I mean, Spain.

Again, it seems that if there's no territory to be gained, Eurotrash governments aren't willing to join their so-called allies in a fight.

Iraq was an ally when they attacked Iran. Again, I don't know if calling them "Eurocowards" is constructive. We, the United States, are as guilty in giving the terrorists the mindset that they could get away with anything as anyone. BJ Clinton pulled us out of Somalia after 18 of my brethren were killed and showed UBL that we were too afraid of a few bodybags to come to any resolution. Clinton's justice dep't also came up with that assinine policy of pursuing terrorists in a "Law" fashion, only bringing the ones perpetrating the crimes to justice, and that too was a failure. Kerry is pondering the same policy, of course, he won't, nor would he ever, get my vote. If Spain ousted Aznar for issues other than the attacks, fine. If they did it because they wanted out of this war on terror, I feel they are making a grave mistake. ...one that we, the United States, have made as well. What comes around, goes around. I pray nothing happens to Spain on the scale of 9/11, but if it does, I wonder how they will address the issue.

AAAAck! - Home of the Brave, you bake great points - then throw out a slur and close minds - - - I know that these are emotional issues - but the points themselves are powerful enough without the name-calling.

Fup

A few points here...

1. Was PP favored to win the election prior to the bombings? Yes.

2. Did the bombings effectively change people's minds as to how to vote? Yes.

3. Did the Socialists benefit from this swing in votes to win? Yes.

4. Did al Qaeda want PP out because of their stance against Muslim extremists? Yes.

5. Did al Qaeda want the Socialists in because of their softer stance on getting involved in world terrorist situations? Yes.

6. Did the people of Spain do exactly what al Qaeda hoped they would do? Yes.

Since the answer to all six of these questions is yes, I can only conclude that al Qaeda effectively changed the government of Spain through terrorist bombings against Spanish citizens, and that was their intent from the beginning.

As for Spain's being involved in Iraq, or any other operations throughout the world, that's a matter for their new government to decide. The people have spoken, and whether or not we like it doesn't matter. They had a right to vote the way they did, and even though they are letting their allies down in the matter of Iraq, that's their business.

As for Spain's troops in Iraq, it was only a token force to show solidarity anyway. Were they even combat units? Probably not.

We can pick up the slack on the small amount of support they gave us in a heartbeat. Why should we be offended? But we also know who our friends are, don't we?

Wolf

And this is when Al-Qaeda voted in Spanish Polls and anti-americanism triumphs in my country (see Deivid messages for an example).

Is this an exageration? I don't think so. It is the same silogism that has been used to make this reasoning:

a) The Spanish Government supported Iraq's War
b) Al-Qaeda (or a fanatic moslem terrorist band) did the bombings of last Thursday.

c) Therefore, Spanish Government if to blame for Thursday's bombings.

Australia, Poland and other countries not only supported the war, but sent troops to fight Iraq's army. Spanish troops only took part in the post-war, in the same role as in Afghanistan a year later, and in Bosnia, Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia and Croatia. Bali, Tunisia, Morocco and Iraq suffered Al-Qaeda bombings and they hadn't supported the war.

Moreover, this same reasoning should make us conclude that ETA kills because the Government jails its members. What would happen now if it was ETA instead of Al-Qaeda? What if after troops came back we are object of new bombings (as is most probable)?

So what's different now? The difference is that PSOE used the opposition against Iraq's War as an issue to achieve the government. Anti-americanism has always been popular among socialists and communists since the times when they were financed by URSS in the clandestinity of Franco's dictatorship. Unfortunately this has not changed in the years of democracy.

Zapatero (with the aid of other political parties), managed to take control of discontent against the Spanish Government's policy on the Iraq's War issue. He obviously didn't expect to win in this poll, but now is prisoner of his own promises (made not to be fullfilled), and will have to call back troops or face a great discredit among spaniards (he is going to discredit himself and Spain anyway in the eyes of foreign governments).

I'm sure that the change of government has nothing to do with cowardy (after all, people went massively to vote), but with a perfect and legitimate (though misserable in my opinion) management of the bombings against the Government. Anyway, we spaniards decided that way, and this is the Government we will have for the next four years.

I tell you now what will happen in the future: Zapatero as the new President will do the impossible to maintain troops in Iraq (he knows very well what will cost him internationally to do otherwise). But don't expect him to be as a staunch supporter of american policies as Aznar. You should expect spanish government from this point to be friendly but cold (think of the Spanish Government of 10 years ago).

Al-Qaeda has had a decisive role in the elimination of one of the best US allies. And my fellow countrymen have been pawns in their hands.

This has been, without doubt, the worst week in years for my country (at least under my point of view).

PD: Do you have in the USA a good work for me? I feel I will have to move when the unemployment starts to rise again.

I hate to politicize the train bombing but it was already politicized by the terrorists who used it to accomplish there goals....Sadly the terrorists have gotten what they always wanted...? A government who would not get in there way of minipulating the world and taking it over for there extreemest muslim desires...the terrorists used the bombing to get rid of an undesirable conservative government and used it to install a much more sympathetic and easy to push around government (the socialist)...Yes! sadly, Al Quiada got just what it wanted and now has had its evil actions validated by getting what it wanted...if they would have suffered by the spanish populaces calling for more conservative messures and more involvement in fighting terrorism in places like Iraq and elsewhere then they would think twice about killing innocent spainards but Now they are stregthened and realise how effective and fruitful more killing and terror can be...It is trully a sad day!

Spaniards are not cowards. They never supported us in the war in Iraq, they sent in troops to hep rebuild Iraq after the war was over.

Imagine the US in a similar situation. Which did happen. Vietnam. Democrats were in power, and finally when a Republican took office (Nixon), we pulled out of Vietnam because it wasn't working. Now we can cast stones at the Spaniards?

Spain is still an ally, but whether or not they will be as close a friend as they were under PP remains to be seen, but American opinion can go a long way towards shaping that relationship. If we denounce Spain, and Spaniards, because a politician changed their course of direction, we're being foolish. The only one we'll hurt is ourselves.

We still have lots of friends in Spain, and their voices will be the conscience of the new government unless we make it impossible for that to happen.

Wolf

This is true!!! but Al Quaida still won in the spainish election and north vietnam won when Nixon took office...these are undeniable facts!

SKI, Wolf: Give a chance to the new spanish government. I may disagree in general with PSOE and how it has achieved power, but I don't either believe they are going to be weak against terrorism.

And anyway, in four years we will have new polls if they don't do a good performance in the government.

Fernando

Ski,

I'm painfully aware of what happened in Vietnam. I was one of the people who served there. I did three tours in country.

I don't have any remorse for having been there, and I think we were wrong for not finishing the job, but we didn't, and we really can't feel that the Spaniards have done anything that abandoned a cause more than what happened in Nam.

We have to give Spain a chance to find themselves with their new elected officials. Heck, we go through that all the time here too, and somehow or another, countries in the world find ways to work with us. Let's do the same thing for Spain. We owe it to those Spaniards who have supported us. Fair enough?

Wolf

Face it, Spain. You just blinked.

Remeber that success breeds success. But when terrorist attacks commence before parliamentary elections in Britain, Italy, Australia, the Us and elsewhere, I won't hold you responsible.

Anyone else notice that this (and other) threads have turned into a place for Spain Bashing for new members? Well guess what! Here's a news flash. Just as I ALWAYS eventually have to do on the ETA thread, this one too will meet is end. I'm just counting the minutes.

ATTENTION NEW AND ALL MEMBERS: WE WILL NOT TOLERATE CONSTANT SPAIN BASHING HERE. THERE ARE OTHER PLACES, I'M SURE, WHERE YOUR OPINIONS ARE SHARED BUT THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM. WE INVITE YOU TO LEAVE. THIS IS A PLACE FOR SPAIN LOVERS NOT SPAIN HATERS!! CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED.

And before you jump on the 1st Ammendment (Freedom of Speech), it doesn't exist here. So watch it!

OH-SO-SINCERELY, MadridMan

Never mind MM. This is an understandable reaction to the news. I knew it was going to happen.

It seems (according El País ) an Al-Qaeda spokesman in Spain (in prison) has denied any implication in the bombings of last Thursday.

It is not that I care who was, but I'm sure the truth will be unveiled sooner or later, and some will be pictured as they are, and not as they wanted us to see them.

Fernando

Fernando, I apologize for all this. I'm feeling a bit ashamed today. I apologize to all the regulars and to anyone who actually does love Spain. Don't worry. I'm keeping a close eye on these "new fanatics" on the message board and they're treading on thin ice. I assure you.

SINCERELY, MadridMan

Well Wolf and MM are right. Time will tell and the actual actions taken will be the true reflections of the new govt.

I have winced many a time from US govt pronouncements, but have always tried to look for the actual deeds done. So too should we wait and see. If Z can lead this country forward and give himself more power he will be in a position to implement his mandate. If so, then we will really see how things will proceed, as having the power of people solidly behind him will embolden him in ways unimaginable before the election. Although nervous about such an occurrence, in some ways I hope it happend, becuase then we will see his principles manifest more clearly in govt policies.

Ya con policy and back to our love affairs with Spain, no?

Viva la belleza de España, como siempre!

>>>>And before you jump on the 1st Ammendment (Freedom of Speech), it doesn't exist here. So watch it!

OH-SO-SINCERELY, MadridMan<<<<

GOT TO LOVE A MAN BOTH HONEST AND WITH A SENSE OF HUMOR.

LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT, BROTHER! (the message board, I mean - I recommend the latter, personally)

Brave,

There have been a lot of meaningful and sometimes heated discussions on the boards but the line is drawn at bashing. As MadridMan says, there comes a point where you cut it off because it becomes too heated.

As you can see from the boards, there's a great melding of Spaniards and Americans, and though we disagree of issues quiet often, we've learned to curb our statements to avoid bashing so we can actually get into the heart of subjects where there is a vast difference in opinion. As an American, I like that, because I can learn more about the people of Spain, and in turn they can learn more about us as individuals, getting past the stereotypes that are too often projected in most areas.

I think you'd enjoy posting here and learning about others. It's a great site. Enjoy it, and if you ever get the opportunity to visit Spain, this is where a lot of friendships have began, and are cemented further during get togethers in Madrid.

Wolf

Get this! I just received an email message from KingWorld's Inside Edition ("News" TV show in the USA). They're asking if I knew the names of any of the 'Americans' injured in the bombings. I hadn't heard there were any 'Americans' injured. Can anyone confirm this?

Saludos, MadridMan

Has anyone heard anything about this ETA-Al Quaida connection? read on:
from Corriere della Sera (Milan)
Do you think there is any truth in this or any independently verified evidence?

Blood pact by E.T.A. and fundamentalists
Basque brigades in Iraq

Magdi
Allam

The hundreds of mostly Islamic foreign combatants who arrived in Iraq before the American attack on 20 March 2003 also included about 80 Basque E.T.A. militants. Two of them were Alvaro Gorka Vidal and Badillo Izkur. On 29 February, the two were arrested while driving to Madrid in a van packed with 500 kilograms of explosives. Unfortunately, Spanish investigators were unaware of the pair's past. It is a past from which emerges an alliance of terror involving young E.T.A. activists, a faction of the self-styled Iraqi resistance that controls the Falluja and Al Ramadi areas, and Spain's Campo Antimperialista group. Yesterday, Europe's bloodiest terrorist massacre may have initiated for them an unprecedented season of violence and indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. The Euskal Herria (Basque Country) brigade took part in resistance operations against the American forces attacking Baghdad. It was made up of young E.T.A. militants prepared to sacrifice their lives.

The combatants had been carefully selected by the Spanish Campo Antimperialista for their unbending faith in the Arab cause and visceral hatred of Israel. First, the militants flew to Amman or Damascus. From there, they proceeded overland to the Iraqi capital. Many have returned home. Some stayed in Iraq, posing as humanitarian operatives, and they were probably responsible for the attack that cost the lives of seven Spanish secret service agents on 29 November at Suwayrah, 45 kilometers south of Baghdad.

The pact of terror between E.T.A. and the Iraqi resistance was agreed in Europe by agents of Saddam Hussein's secret services who managed to infiltrate the Campo Antimperialista group active in Spain and France. The agents returned to Iraq just before the war. There, they were able to gain control of terrorist activities in Falluja and Al Ramadi, the two hottest spots in the area known as the Sunnite "Triangle of Death." The zone was the base for the bloodiest attacks on Americans and Iraqi "collaborators." The Campo Antimperialista website is the main media vehicle for the circulation of communiqués from the Iraqi resistance. Officially, the resistance claims to have nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden, but in fact it is directly involved in Europe in recruiting, and sending to Iraq, aspiring Islamic and non-Islamic combatants and suicide bombers. The resistance works closely with Al Qaeda for the success of their shared terror strategy, whose goals are the destabilization of Iraq and the evacuation of American troops.

Spain, like Italy, France and Britain, hosts active and dormant Al Qaeda cells. Until now, these have been engaged mainly in logistical support. The plan that brought about the tragic events of 11 September 2001 at New York and Washington was drafted on Spanish soil, where Mohammad Atta, leader of the 19 suicide hijackers, traveled. Similarly, Spain has become one of Osama Bin Laden's main targets because of its strong support of the war in Iraq and for the presence of Spanish troops in the south of the country. It was no secret that Spain is a sworn enemy of Al Qaeda. But there had been no hint of the terror alliance linking E.T.A. to the Iraqi resistance and, indirectly, to Bin Laden.

In effect, the Madrid massacre represents the Al Qaedization of terrorism in Europe, on an essentially ideological level. What ought to be cause for concern is the shift in how terrorism perceives its enemy. By indiscriminately attacking civilians, E.T.A. has abandoned the principle of subjective responsibility that in the past produced attacks on individual institutions and officials. It has now adopted the Osama Bin Laden principle of objective responsibility. All those who, whatever their role, are on the enemy's side deserve to die. It is lawful to kill them. Bin Laden does so on the basis of the takfir, the sentence of apostasy passed on an entire society that accepts an "impious" or "atheist" power. The random bombings in Madrid yesterday are a declaration of total war on Spanish society.

It is clear that the quality leap in terrorism in Spain, and the emergence of a terror multinational that combines native subversives with Arab and Islamic extremist groups, must cause concern in Italy. S.I.S.M.I., Italy's military counterespionage service, warned about this risk in a recent report to parliament. So far, efforts at prevention and repression have been successful. But clearly, we are facing the insidious aggression of a globalized terrorism that is capable of mobilizing the West's enemies, internal and external.

di Magdi Allam

English translation by Giles Watson
www.watson.it

12 marzo 2004 - Corriere.it anche sul tuo cellulare Tim, Vodafone o Wind

< italian version

L'archivio degli editoriali

Archive of Editorials

MM, does it matter if no Americans were injured? My damn allies were injured and I would, in a HEARTBEAT, go to war to route out who caused these tragic events. There IS NO negotiating with terrorists, ESPECIALLY ones that think you are wrong and wat to kill you BECAUSE of your religion.

I have to admit have my political views are pretty far to the right. I don't consider my self a racialist but if you consider some one that wants to perserve Spanish culture and Spain as best as possible and have 0 immagration then I am a racist.... How ever the new socialist government is what the terriost want this new liberal government will allow more immagrants to flood in. We have to distinguish between being tolerant and being dumb. Muslims hold no place in Spain as far as im concerned. Al Qaeda has also admitted to reconquering the lands fought for and died for over 700 yrs with their people a new invasion this time using an invisible enemy be fore warned.

Ok, had to decipher your post.....what about Spaniards that weren't religious at all and wanted to become Muslim? Should they be ousted as well? Religion isn't the cause of this tragedy nor is it the reason we have terrorists. THEY use it for a scapegoat and YOU buy into it. Smart.

I fail to understand what the advantage is about immagration other then giving bussiness money. Also do we want a Spain so clearly divided al ready amon regions languages etc. under a new foreign religion grow up guys. They don't use it as scape goat they are religious fanatics meaning they take the religion for what it is. Islam has always been religion of war look at what they have done after Spaniards had to save western Europe from their North African hordes how hard and how long it took to kick them off European soil and then to see the enemy back on is unbareble for me.

Last time I checked, religion wasn't race-specific. I know white Muslims, Buddhists (Richard Gere?), Christians, Jews, Hindus, Wiccans, AND Naturalists. You try to ban religion in Spain, which is what you are basically calling for, you are denying freedoms to the Spanish people.

....and Islam isn't to blame for the 3/11 attacks anymore than Christianity is to blame for the morons that were involved with the Crusades. ANY religion can be perverted.

Its logical that some Spaniards may want to convert to Islam but I find it hard that a Chatholic sactioned country like is going to start converting to Islam. If a Spaniard were to convert to Islam thats fine. But those people from North Africa are not welcomed by me.

You live in Southern California. Why not let the Spaniards say who they want in their country.

Most Spaniards would agree with me I believe except for the Ultra liberal and PP voting people me personally id vote Democracia Nacional or Falange.

Most Spaniards already voted against you Quintos. "I" disagree with their pick and think they made a grave mistake, but "I" am in the States. It's their country. It's up to them to run it. I just hope it doesn't come back to haunt them as I don't like to see ANY innocent blood spilled. 'Course, I can now see Al Queda using them as a ploy, not attack them again, and make the world think that if you don't support the US, you won't be attacked. "Divide and Conquer" comes to mind. I pray Spain doesn't take the "France" approach. I've already stated my feelings on France. I would dodge a draft before I would defend France....of course, I can't be drafted. Served my 8 years already. Combat duty in Somalia as well.

Get this! I just received an email message from KingWorld's Inside Edition ("News" TV show in the USA). They're asking if I knew the names of any of the 'Americans' injured in the bombings. I hadn't heard there were any 'Americans' injured. Can anyone confirm this?

Saludos, MadridMan

After posting on Friday, I decided not to post over the weekend out of respect for the victims last Thursday and in truth I didn’t want to get into a political argument with Quintos or anyone else when I believed time was better spent talking with friends, reassuring relatives and quietly reflecting on the world in general. However, now I have looked back over the arguments that have raged over the past four days and I can only shake my head in disbelief.

Please stop referring to the people who carried out these actions as Muslims, radical or not. This has nothing to do with Islam. I lived for many years in London whilst terrorist organisations such as the IRA indiscriminately bombed, killed and assassinated. These killers on more than one occasion, kidnapped a family, handcuffed the father to the steering wheel of a car, loaded with a bomb, and told him that if he didn’t drive it into a specific location the would kill his family. They bombed remembrance services (see news reports on Enniskillen), they phoned in bomb warnings only to detonate a device at a location just far enough away from where their warning specified to catch people who were being evacuated to a supposedly safe location by the police. Would you describe these terrorists as Christians? How about radical Christians?

Over the last couple of years there have been a number of bombings, amongst other actions perpetrated against scientists working in the medical field by an organisation call the ALF (Animal Liberation Front). Are these the actions of animal lovers? Or radical animal lovers?

In the USA, doctors have been shot and blown up by supposed pro-Life groups. Christians? Radical Christians?

No, of course not. All these actions have been carried out by indiscriminate killers, monsters. No religion, permits, condones or sanctions this behaviour. These killers are cowards, who like to be portrayed as soldiers, although they have neither the courage or honour to face their supposed enemy, they do not attack those who can defend themselves. They have not even the courage to look the person in the eye whose life they plan to take.

From the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3514590.stm

M.

The_Keeper:

I totally agree with you! Many of the people posting ignorant messages here are blinded by their own religions, whether they be Christianity, Islam, Conservatism, Bushism, or anything else.

Rather than bring about constructive dialogue about world affairs, they choose to attack groups in order to bring sense to these attacks. But no sense can be found! Terrorists are monsters, acting on impulses brought about by mental illness, abuse and brainwashing. That's why we will never overcome terrorism - because most are of the belief that we can teach those people a thing or two by bombing their families and their countries. Violence breeds violence, which is so evident here with each political posting receiving a bevy of rebuttals and venomous retorts.

Be respectful of others, try to open your mind, don't hate, because if you breed those virtues in your small worlds and families, then maybe it will catch on one day.

Then what do you do Silvita? Do you bow to terrorism and hope they never attack you? How many on these boards believe that peace CAN'T be achieved through bloodshed? I ask this because all to often I see sentements such as, "We will never defeat terrorism and killing them is not the answer" etc. What is the answer? It may very well be the end of time but I do not see backing down as a feasible option. We must attack, and attack swiftly. We must continue to fight even if it means my grandchildren are still fighting in their day (I'm 31, so that's a ways away). We cannot fight terrorism with diplomacy. It can only be fought by the sword.

Silvita,
I wish it were so easy. These folks are not stupid, abused, brain washed or mentally ill. They may use such folks as their foot soldiers, but the masterminds are often brilliantly playing a game of chess as representative of the dark side. Did you see my post on Al-Q getting an A+- It is of a CNN report taken from Al-Q BEFORE the bombing. EVERYTHING unfoled EXACTLY as planned. Actually, I am wrong. The only difference, is that Al-Q though they needed two separate bombings to achieve their aims, they achieved their goals with one.

It would be a grave mistake to underestimate how much horror they can inflict. We are just witnessing the beginning. It has nothing to do with violence begetting violence. From their perspective, it has to do to will a battel of wills and ideologies. Evil yes. Inferior of mind, no.

They DID attack me, Kevin. I lived in NYC during Sept. 11 and remember it quite well. You should really learn to think before you write.

You should really reflect on why you insist on attacking people who try to promote peace. You should take a good look at yourselves and question why you feel it is necessary to jump on people who obviously feel no ill towards you. I pray for people like you.

And we HAVE attacked them. We've launched two wars in as many years and yet, here they are again, killing en masse. Your plan isn't working either!!!!

And by mental illness, I do not mean that they are dumb. I do not underestimate their power, especially since I saw it first hand 2.5 years ago.

first off, I haven't ATTACKED anyone on these boards. Don't confuse me with someone else. Secondly, I am talking about the future. You can pray for peace all you want. I can assure you, the terrorists are not. Pray for peace all you want. History doesn't side with you.

....and Sivita, please answer the question. What do you think we should do? Try to negotiate peace with them? Honestly, I am trying to get where you are coming from.

Though wars are always questinoable, fighting terrorism should never be.

Who made the 11-S and 11-M bombings? Iraqis? Afghans?

No. In the first one the majority were saudits, in the second ones it seems they were moroccians. Have you (or we) attacked their countries? No. So even the theory of self-defense is non consistent.

Negotiating with terrorists is never the best solution. It is an easy solution, but never the best. They can obviously kill people from time to time to cause terror and panic, but if you give them something, they will bomb again the time they want more.

What we have to do is crush them, cut their finance, isolate them politically, jail their members and try to prevent as many attacks as possible.

Fernando

Madridman,

4 Americans where injured in the bomb attacks but I am not sure what there names are.

As soon as I heard about the new pm and also the possible pulling out of troops on June 30 one of my first thought was whats going to happen to the unemployment level. Does anyone know what the new leaders stance on unemployment is and what he plans to do to combat unemployment? I would hate to see alot spaniards losing jobs because of the pull out. The unemployment rate is already very high for a developed country in my opinion. Which is something like 11% I believe and I would hate to see it rise further.

Here is a partial plan, Kevin. I could think of many more. This is my last e-mail on the subject, because I don't intend to change your mind, I intend to show you that a one-track ideology grossly underestimates the complexity of the middle east.

The first thing I would do is re-evaluate ties with Saudi Arabia. Did you know that in the past two decades, U.S. construction companies and arms suppliers have made over $50 billion in Saudi Arabia? Over 30,000 U.S. citizens are employed by Saudi corporations, or by joint Saudi-U.S. corporate partnerships. And we currently have 15,000 troops in a country that Muslims deem their holy land. Did you know that Abu Zubaydah, the mastermind behind the USS Cole bombing and one of the chief operations officers for Al-Qaeda, when he was being interrogated by the CIA, told agents, posing as Saudi officers, that Prince Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz would get him out of trouble (giving them the Prince's private telephone number!), claiming that the Prince had prior knowledge of the 9-11 attacks? Yes, Prince Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz is closely related to Prince Bandar, the Saudi ambassador to the United States, who coincidentally has gone on hunting trips to Europe with James Baker and George Bush, Sr.

Secondly, I would revive the peace plan talks between Israel and Palestine. I would work with other countries to establish a Palestinian state and I would definitely stop unconditionally supporting the conservative Sharon regime, who by the way is in violation of many UN resolutions, just like Saddam Hussein. Millions of moderate and progressive Muslims who truly denounce terrorism are frustrated by our relationship with Israel, financed by more than $3 billion in annual subsidies. Think about that.

The launching of military strikes does NOTHING to suppress terrorism, and only erodes American credibility in the Muslim world. When Bush said that we have to recapture the hearts and minds of muslims in the middle east, perhaps he didn't understand that bombing civilians wouldn't do that for us.

Silvita, you have a point there.

Bush promissed that after Iraq's War the Palestine-Israel issue would be solved by making possible a palestinian state. We have heard nothing of it until the moment, and Sharon continues making state terrorism against palestinians (terrorists and common people alike).

It is hard to sell the good consequences of the war when we haven't seen results yet (other than kicking Saddam out of Iraq, but he is a dictator between a hundred).

Fernando

Las Ketchup wrote: . Thanks, Las Ketchup. I haven't heard anything about this in the USA press which surprises me.

Saludos, MadridMan

All though I must admit we sould never under estimate what the terriost are capable off. I must say that they aren't Einsteins. Its really not that hard to leave a bag full of explosives or detonating it nor it that hard to plan it. What bothers me the most though is that these people had to have had some planning prior to bombing the trains they knew exactly who they were going to kill.

Silvita, your first point I agree totally. I have LONG stated that we should cut ties with Saudi Arabia. Your second point, well, I just don't see anyway around it. The way "I" see it, the Palestinians bomb civilian coffee shops and the Israelis target radicals. Yes, civilians are killed, but until they develop "smart bullets", that's always going to happen. I see the Palestinian people as pawns by the regimes in the region. They use them to rally their people against anyone besides themselves, the real oppressors. As far as Bush targeting civilians, again, Bush doesn't target anyone. The military is given a mission and they carry it out. Sometimes civilians get killed, but you are basically stating the military targets civilians again. Last I checked, Bush hasn't fired one round in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Interesting article in today's Wall Street Journal. Written by Congressman Christopher Cox. Generally stating that Zapatero probably didn't expect to be thrown on the world stage like this and that he too must see the reality of the past. He will also have to deal with terrorist threats. They are not finished with Spain, (especially the Andalucia cause), or western society.

I quote:

"Spain's rank and file Socialists may not wish to acknowledge the depth of their nation's infection with al Qaeda. Mohammed Atta held top-level meetings in Madrid to plan the Sept. 11 attacks. Several al Qaeda cells have been discovered in Spain: more than 30 al Qaeda operatives have been arrested there. It is against this backdrop that last week's train bombings, apprently the work of a multinational cell of al Qaeda loyalists, must be understood."

As Edmund Burke famously said, "The only thing necessary for triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

We must stick together in this common cause, or it will be way worse in the future, and we will STILL be dealing with it.......at a much more drastic level.

Your welcome madridman:) I also haven't heard anything about it from major new sources. It seems as though if someone isn't killed or if large numbers of people aren't injured then it isn't news unfortunatly. I get most of my news from AOL wich pulls news from many different sources and also posts it's own stuff. Like right now some of the news stories are "Madrid suspects where known years ago", "Annan: Spain blaming ETA affected election", "Spain media say outgoing govt. pressed them on ETA". I would happily post some of them for everyone to read if anyone would like? I would make sure to add the copyright stuff so I wouldn't be breaking any laws.

The last news story heading about the spanish press is what a lot of the Spaniards here are talking about I believe. Not the actual news story but the controversy that is going on right now. There is a lot of talk going around about the media and censorship of the spanish bombing coverage. It seems from the news stories that the spanish media and the government are taking a lot of heat for not being objective enough in reporting the attacks. But I have yet to visit Spain so I am not sure how big the debate over there is. All I can do is read news from many different sources and try to come to my own conclusions on what I think is going on in Spain right now.

Take care everyone

I was in Madrid with my brother and my girlfriend. We were staying 2 blocks from Estacion Atocha when the bombs went off. We would ate breakfast just across the street from Estacion Atocha everyday and take the commuter trains in and out of the city to see friends, and we were suppose to head out on the train that very day. I'm not gonna comment on the caos and carnage nor will I talk about the political aspect of this tragedy. But I wanna tell those of you who are planning on going to Madrid anytime soon and have doubts, put them to rest. Madrid has come together much the way NY has after the World Trade affair. The city and ppl are still warm and inviting as ever before. Don't let this attack scare you from visiting such a beautiful place. I know I will be back soon to help out Madrid (my family.)

ps. stay strong Madrid you have been great to me and my family, I love you guys.

my husband and i are not backing down from our spain trip in april/may. we will not be pushed into a corner to cower in fear.

sookwan,

I'm afraid I am, but it has nothing to do with the bombing. Right afterwards I was proud to be taking my family for a month there this summer. I love Spain. But after the election I was deflated. Not only did Spain provide a second victory to the killers, but the rhetoric against the US has gone UP from there. It seems that defference to the terrorists is going to be a long term policy (although I have to admit, based on the positive remarks from terrorist organizations, this victory for them will probably have them leaving Spain alone - so from that aspect it has been a success....of sorts)

Very sad - "El Cid is dead, long live El Cid"

Fup

Ok, I've followed the whole thread of issues and I feel caught up. Here's my spin, from somewhere in Canada:

Spain's new government is the laughingstock of the modern world. I don't know whether to blame the government itself, or the people who voted. Clearly you have people who are angry and hurt who went to the polling station; and when emotions run high, poor decision making is usually the result. Look what you're left with. Spain's new "democratic" government has no sense of what being democratic and free really means, as they don't stand with other democracies--they and the people of Spain have largely chosen to side with the terrorists in the most selfish way possible. You don't want terrorism in your country, I can understand that. But the result of your actions, Spain, is that you have sent a very clear message to terrorists the world over: "Terrorism Works!!" And now the rest of the world will have to stay on their toes because Spain has given in to the terrorist demands, have sided with terrorism so that the terrorists leave them alone, and them only, alone. Well Spain; and I'm talking to the lucky survivors/voters who take world peace and basic human freedoms for granted: Being alone is what you deserve. When Iraqis need you most, you want to leave them alone. If you have anybody at your side, it is now the terrorists, as they too will leave you alone--but how do you feel good about that?

Bottom line is this. The terrorists achieved everything they wanted to and more. You have given terrorism no greater reward. You have given the rest of the world no greater plague. And now you can calmly sit on the sidelines, because now you at least have your safety. Selfish selfish selfish. Tut tut tut.

"TheShameOfSpain" award goes to the Spanish government which withheld information that the likely suspects for the bombing were Al-Qaeda terrorists. Instead, they decided to continue blaming ETA in order to win sympathy votes. When the people found out the government essentially lied to them they (a very very slim majority) voted out his/their butts. BACKFIRE! Good for them. The people of Spain are "ThePrideOfSpain"! I salute them!

Saludos, MadridMan