Almost all the pickpockets, thieves, in Spain are immigrants (mainly Northafricans)

Well, also Spanish gipsies comit a lot of pickpocketing. It´s a well-known fact that most of the pickpocketing, robberies, assaults in the streets,... in Spain are done by foreigners, specially Northafricans, Romanians and Colombians.

5 years ago We rarely had assaults in the streets, robberies in houses, assaults in the streets, violence, ... they were quite rare in the news. Even when We had these kind of situations the assaultants (in many cases drugadicts or gipsies) usually were polite and just asked if you could lend him some money.

Now with the comming of immigrants nothing is the same and there are certain neighborhoods in the bigger cities (Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Sevilla, ...) were you should be careful. Many Spaniards suffer from this new wave of violence that the immigrants have brought to us (although others call it "diversity" and "cultural enrichment"...) and many tourist suffer from it also.

I just want to point it out. It´s also the same in other Western European countries. In England, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Italy and most European countries) most of the delinquency and crimes are commited by immigrants. Some friends of mine have recently been mugged in France and Holland. Guess who where the assaultants...?. Moroccoans (like almost always)!.

Yesterday I´ve read a piece of news where CIU (the party that governs in Cataluña) said that the "immigrants were the ones that have caused the bad situation of convivence, delinquency and bad feelings in El Raval in Barcelona". That is just an example of what is happening.

This is just a piece of news of something that happened yesterday in Almeria and that is very usual lately thanks to the Moroccoans. 8 Moroccoans kidnapped a Spanish woman and raped her many times...

http://www.andalucia24horas.com/texto.asp?id=142034&sec=71

Detenidos ocho marroquíes en El Ejido por secuestrar y agredir sexualmente en varias ocasiones a un joven

La Guardia Civil de Almería ha detenido a ocho ciudadanos de nacionalidad marroquí, de entre 19 y 37 años, como presuntos autores del secuestro y la violación en repetidas ocasiones de una joven de 35 años en la localidad de El Ejido (Almería), informó el lunes la Benemérita.

Las detenciones se produjeron en la tarde del pasado día 4 y a lo largo del día 5 de abril en el paraje Tierras de Almería del citado municipio, tras la denuncia presentada por la mujer, el día 27 de marzo, en la que relataba que había sido secuestrada y agredida sexualmente "en repetidas ocasiones por varias personas".

Según fuentes del Instituto Armado, la joven salió de un club acompañada por un hombre, A.A. de 31 años, quien se ofreció a llevarla hasta su casa. Sin embargo, contra su voluntad, fue trasladada hasta un cortijo en Tierras de Almería donde permaneció varios días siendo víctima de los presuntos delincuentes.

Los marroquíes han sido detenidos por los delitos de agresión sexual, robo con violencia --le quitaron la documentación y el dinero-- y detención ilegal.

...........................

I think this Spanish woman must be very happy with the cultural enrichment and diverstiy that many Spaniards are prommoting everyday... There are Spaniards that promote diversity and multiculturalism from their luxury neighborhoods while there are many Spaniards that suffer what the others are prommoting everyday. That poor woman is not the unique that have suffered from this. There are tons of Spaniards and tourists that have been assaulted, robbed, raped and even killed by immigrants in Spain. Diversity!.

And...

I just want to say that when i was in Spain last summer i was robbed by a man with a knife who wnated to open my chest. Fortunaly i was not injured , but i lost 100 euros and almost my life.
The point is that man was a SPANIARD.

I was also pickpocked in Madrid by another SPANIARD.
And finally was another time pickpocked in a train in France by a FRENCH.
So, if i use your arguments, should i be racist on spaniards anf frenchs?
guess what, no!!

Always the same answers... Every summer there are many young Englishmen and Dutchmen that are arrested in Mallorca because they distribute drugs. All countries have their own share of national delinquents. Even in Sweden there are Swedish men that can attack you but the difference is:

1. 1 Swedish men out of 100 is a delinquent while (which makes it very rare) 25 out of 100 Moroccoans are delinquents (which makes it quite usual that a Moroccoan can assalt you in the streets).

2. Each country has his own nationals that are delinquents (even Sweden has his share of Swedish delinquents) but Morocco exports tons of delinquents to other countries and ruins the neighbourhoods and towns where they live and the tourism in those countries.

janlo: I hardly doubt that an ethnic Spaniard or French assaulted you in the streets, I can´t believe it (probably if they were Spaniards they were drugadicts) or probably you can´t differenciate a Southamerican from a Spaniard or from a French or probably they were Spanish or French gipsies). I have never been assaulted by a Spaniard in my life, neither I nor any of my friends. I´ve been assaulted many times by gipsies and I have been asked for money 2 or 3 times by drugadicts. You are not Spaniards so you DON´t understand the gipsy and Moroccoan problem in Spain. It comes from centuries. Or janlo, should I start to talk the way many Native Americans behave in Canada?.

Come on, call me "racist" again, if that is what you like. I´m just a normal person TIRED of all the delinquency that immigrants have brought to Spain. I´m just realist and I want the best for my country.

If I was really a "racist" I shoud have something against Chinese people or Argentinian people and that is not the case. Chinese people as a colective have showed in Spain that they are pretty civilized people and are pretty welcomed in Spain as immigrants and I have absolutely nothing against them.

I do not understand your posts ERT. Are you just venting? Do you want to start another Reconquista? Criminality is usually (always?) linked to POVERTY not RACE.

I don't really want to get in the middle of this issue, but I have a question to ask because I'm a bit confused about what people really seem to believe regarding this issue.

If the majority of crimes against person, like pickpockets, and muggings are conducted by immigrants, and if we suggest it's because they are poor, why are these people allowed into Spain if they aren't going to be an active part of their society and work for a living? The test of living there should obviously be gainful employment.

Obviously, if allowing illegal aliens to remain free on their own recognizance isn't working, then it's up to the Spanish government to create speedy trials, and make these criminals pay for their crimes. If the ruling of the court is that they have violated their agreement for being there, they should be deported immediately upon serving their time.

If a person refuses to name their nation of origin, after commission of a crime, and being convicted, they obviously don't deserve to remain free on Spanish soil, and should be incarcerated until such time as they admit to their origin, and be deported upon that admission.

It seems like the biggest problem the Spanish government has with creating a safer environment is the fact that the law isn't geared up to "dissuade" these people from being criminals. It might be time for the people to demand stiffer penalties, and immediate action.

Wolf

The majority of the crimes are commited by forgeiners in Spain, followed by gypsies. 80% of the people jailed are inmigrants.

From there we can't conclude "all the inmigrants are criminals" or "all gypsies are criminals".

It is obvious that the people with less resources will tend with more probability to be criminals. It is both a cultural issue (cultures that give less value to life or crime than others) and an economical one.

I really don't see the connection with racism...

Fernando

Fernando,

Based on those figures (80%), can't the Spanish authorities deport these people? If they are criminals, there's really no reason to keep them in Spain from what I see, regardless of race.

If they are Americans, or whatever, send them packing. They should live within Spanish law if they want to stay there.

I suppose it gets to a question of civil rights, but I wonder why our nations keep granting rights to people who aren't even legally within our borders.

Wolf

Fernando and Wolf,
I just visited the INTERPOL site,which has the national crime statistics for every country,and according to their data in Spain in 2001, 26.72% of the total crimes were committed by aliens(extranjeros). I am not sure where you got your stats Fernando, but I am interested in seeing that information, they may reflect another measure.

Interpol provides: Click here to be taken to the pdf file with the 2001 statistics

However you can visit www.Interpol.int to get other crime data! Excellent source of crime statistics.
From your friendly librarian,

I've not sayed that 80% of the criminals are inmigrants, but that 80% of the persons who are jailed are inmigrants.

I've tried to access an official source but it was unavailable. Instead, you may read this article in El Mundo , which states that 90% of the people jailed in May of 2002 were inmigrants.

Anyway the Interpol statistics surprise me. That is not the perception I had, but I guess I was wrong. We must also consider that inmigrants are far less than 25% of the population. As I have sayed in the other message, it is normal that the crime rate is higher between inmigrants, because they have less resources in general.

Wolf: According to spanish laws (as far as I know), a criminal inmigrant first has to fullfill his penalty, and then is deported. I have heard that this is going to change, because some inmigrants commited small crimes in order to stay here longer.

Fernando

Hi Fernando,
I am sorry, Fernando, I was not questioning you, I am sorry if I sounded as though I was, I was just curious. Thank you for sharing the article on El Mundo, I see that the stat they quoted: Rajoy afirmó que la población reclusa extranjera en España comprende el 24,46% del total" Rajoy confirmed that the immigrant encarcerated population in Spain comprises 24.46 % of the total incarcerated population. Do you know the total immigrant population in Spain? So one out of every four prisoners in Spain was an immigrant in 2002.

What is fascinating, Fernando, is the statistic on juvenile crime, if you look at the 1995 Interpol figures and the 2001 they seemed to have gone up tremendously.

Never mind Booklady! I didn't thought you were questioning me, and even if that was the case it is ok! If you think I have given an incorrect or incomplete statistic I ask you to correct me

I may be wrong in this one too because it is changing everyday and I don't have at hand the data, but I think inmigrants are around 1-2 million over 41 million spaniards. That is between 2% and 5%.

Fernando

I think the moros, gitanos and sudacas (pej. that's what lots of españoles call Latinos) become criminals because they are discriminated against. They cannot get jobs because of their background. Sounds simplistic but I think it's somewhat true. Spain is not a melting pot like the US. There is a lot of racism. Nobody wants to live in the barrio of Aluche in Madrid for example because there are too many Colombianos. . The PP better start some kind of social sensibilitation (sp.?) program soon or it's going to get really bad. Le Pen in France for example. The PSOE will be probably get stuck with the problem anyway.

Jlramos,
You certainly are correct jlramos, when you said: "They cannot get jobs because of their background." As a matter of fact in another thread, I believe the Gypsy thread? maybe Fernando remembers, anyway a grocery store in Madrid had thrown out the personnel records, which were found and reported in the newspaper. The H.R. person denigrated all the gypsies, or Rom as they are correctly known, and would not give them jobs because of their ethnic background!

That is so sad.

While it is true that crime is more common in poorer neighborhoods, is is also true that a poor person is just as responsible for his action as a rich person. I do not excuse criminals based on their income level. We shouldn't tolerate street thugs because of their income levels, marginalized people know the difference between right and wrong. The poor people I know are not mugging strangers, they are working hard the legal way to improve their lives. I can't pardon the Gypsies and some recent immigrants of thier indiscretions.

As for employment opportunities for Gypsies, as I have written in a previous thread, most Gypsies regect societal norms and are also not truly interested in working for a "payo". I spent the better part of a year in a Spanish university environment and I never meet a gitano university student, despite the fact that tuition is very cheap. Why should we be suprised that they are not well integrated in the workforce, they don't value education and they tend to resent mainstream cultural values.

Cheers

why do we even bother getting into pissing matches with these trolls...
the racists will ALWAYS blame society's ills on immigrants...it's so much easier than actually looking for the root of the problems.
personally i don't care where you are from, if i catch you with your hand in my stuff...i'm keeping it!

We shouldn't use old conceptions of how groups are seen as. Viewing things as they stand, you will see that the gitanos, as an example, are starting to enter into mainstream education institutions including universities. And, actually their community promote and offer help to those who wish to do so. This is good, in the long term patience and a positive attitude from all serves everybody.

Gypsies are a very special ethnic group (as I have posted before). Their culture is as it is, they (generally) don't want to work, nor to live in a house or pay taxes.

There are obviously exceptions, but they are a minority. I have nothing against them, but I could write more than twenty anechdotes in my life that would ilustrate how they are (in general I know!). Just to put an example: I had near my home a "poblado de chabolas" (which means houses made of light materials in an ilegal soil). The council built some good buildings nearby, giving free flats to every gypsie family and then bulldozing their illegal, dangerous (easily burnt), and unhealthy "chabolas". After a year all the gypsies had sold their flats (after taking the pumps, the wires, switches, W.C.s,... and selling them) and build nearby again new "chabolas"...

When a cultural group has been in a country for centuries and still has not integrated itself, and when this same problem happens in dozens of countries at the same time, then it is not racism, nor blame on those countries, but on the cultural group itself.

Yes, I know that speaking against a marginalized ethnic minority is very politically incorrect under an american perspective, but I can assure you that I am not a racist.

In Spain we have polish (and other eastern europeans), moroccians, central-africans, and southamericans. All these groups are integrated into our society in some degree. Most of them have already their children in the schools, work normally (for example picking up vegetables or fruits) and are rarely subject of racism. These people have arrived to Spain in the last 5-10 years. Gypsies have been here for centuries...

Fernando

The gitanos ARE Spanish aren't they?!!
Not all gitanos live in chabolas and rob and go round with tamaborines and sing and dance flamenco.
Could one go so far to say that the majority of gitanos live and function as any other Spaniard still maintaining their gitano culture? I think so.
Joaquin Cortes, Lola/Antonio Flores and family are all entertainers and actors and what about those who are quietly successful in their own right as normal you and me type of people.
....

I've yet to know one Miche. That day I will change my opinion on them.

They are spaniards, and as such, have the same rights (free education and health care, access to a home,...) but also the same obligations: respect the law, attend school until they are 16,...

Anyway, I think this topic was broadly discussed in another thread...

Fernando

HEY! GREAT NEWS! I´ve been here 3 full days with my camera around my neck, wearing tennis shoes, riding tour buses, metros, and taking trains and have yet to be mugged! Isn´t that great? Well, the trip is young. I´m sure tomorrow I´ll get my pocket picked. Can´t wait. Why is this always "happening to the other guy?? I´m getting just a bit jealous/envious. Now watch, tomorrow it´ll REALLY happen. Hope not!

Saludos, MadridMan

No, MadridMan, you're safe because the ENTIRE world knows what you look like (if you walk down the street with NO SHIRT on, or ironing clothes, you're even more likely to be recognized). All the bad guys know who you are and won't mess with you. Now the mujeres...they are another story!

Well, the people who robbed me in November clearly weren't native speakers of Spanish. In fact, I think the reason they resorted to picking my pocket was that I couldn't figure out what the hell they were asking for when they demanded my money.

Which brings us to the real issue here: if you're going to move to another country and become a mugger -- a profession that requires you to deal with the public -- the least you can do is learn the vocabulary associated with your chosen occupation.

Wolf, about the: can't the Spanish government deport these immigrants that commit crimes? question; I'm afraid it's not that simple; the only immigrants that get ever deported are, for instance, the hundreds of Moroccans or Nigerians that get caught while or once they are crossing over the "Estrecho' from Africa (in the case of the Nigerians, many try to reach the Canary Islands shores) trying to get into the country. The rest, the ones you were referring to, always resort to “legal tricks”, I'll give you a couple of examples; many black Africans would not declare what country they are from (and let's face it, it's quite hard to tell just by their appearance), so there's literally no country to send them back to. Others just commit “small-time-crimes”, like a little pickpocketing here and there, over and over so that they're constantly pending trial, spend a couple of days in jail when they're caught, but are never in the position of being “sent home”, they're always on bail (I guess that's the correct term) , waiting to go to court, and after they do they've never found to have commited a felony so serious to be sent to prison for a significant amount of time. This administration though, is working on this, a while ago there was a lot of talk about some sort of “three strikes and you're out” thing (very American, uh?); but that doesn't seem to be being implemented yet so it might still be in the works. Also, about Moroccans, I'm not an expert on the International treaties between our two countries about this issue, but it appears that Morocco, its laws, and its king in particular, couldn't be less interested in accepting or “allowing back” all the Moroccans that decide to leave their native country, since many do, or claim to do it anyway, for political reasons; so for the Moroccan government they're nothing but a nuisance.
Booklady, it'd seem like one thing are the Interpol statistics and another is actually living here on a daily basis and watching the "telediarios' every day. I agree with Fernando, the Interpol statistics don't “feel” quite correct; maybe the fact that in Madrid and other big cities with an immigrant population that has grown enormously, the situation is different from other Spanish provinces, has something to do with the matter….
Shawn and Fernando, you're right on commenting the gypsies idiosyncrasy, it's sort of sad (specially from a woman's perspective), and probably difficult to understand, but many people from that ethnic group and culture("los calés') do not want to have their culture polluted by ours("los payos').
Shawn, with each of your posts commenting on Spanish society, it never fails, I realize the great level of comprehension the months you spent here last year has provided you with. "Mi más sincera enhorabuena', good job!, as you know, "el saber no ocupa lugar'.
Fernando, you make an excellent point, pointing out, the different relationship that people from different countries have with violence. This is a fact, not racism.
Miche, you do realize that Lola Flores, Antonio Canales, etc….are not ordinary, everyday people, not many gypsies are worldwide reknown performers, they're, if anything, exceptions to the rule in many ways. The gypsies that live in Spain are Spanish indeed, but they claim to have their own laws, what's called "la ley gitana'.
Jlramos, I'm sure you've heard some Spaniards use the word "sudaca' before, but in case you don't know, and you don't mean to be quite politically incorrect writing that term on such a public forum, that's not very proper. Also, I can't agree with you when you talk about immigrants not having good opportunities, workwise, because of their background; it's true that, sadly, there're some prejudices here and everywhere else in the world about people that are “different”, or sometimes people will give someone a chance and if disappointed or if something bad happens will become cautious towards other people from that person's origin, (I myself had a most unpleasant experience with a Colombian co-worker, but prefer to think all Colombians can't possibly be that violent, misogynist, etc….though I'll admit the fact that this guy claimed to have very good connections with the Colombian mobs made his threats even more scary. It's funny, up until that point, he always said the worst thing that anyone could call him was Colombian or Southamerican, he was extremely racist towards his own, black people, or anyone not Caucasian, for that matter, and told everyone he was from the US, since he claimed to have lived there over 20 years) but I feel you're not telling the whole story forgetting the huge amounts of immigrants that live here illegally, it's very easy to judge business owners who prefer to hire “legal” residents over workers without papers, I personally won't judge them until I'm not in their shoes….
On a final note, the title of this thread forgets another type of burglars, the groups of Rumanians or East-Europeans, which robberies occur maybe less often, but tend to use the most violent methods of them all. (I say “groups” because I'm unsure about whether they're part of the mafias or these Russian and Rumanian mafias are more into drugs, prostitution, etc….and not muggings).

Hi Pim, when I wrote "sudaca" in my post I put a "pej." right after which means it's a pejorative expression.

Sorry, I did not know that.

You certainly learn something new everyday .

Pim,
I did also say 'all those quietly successful people in their own right, my and you type of people'.
Maybe it's hard to distinguish a normal working gitano because they look like a 'payo' and don't wear bells, ribbons and an ostentatious amount of gold jewelrey.
Should gitanos have 'GITANO' stamped on their foreheads so that you can know they are gitanos?
(answer not needed, thankyou).
Shawn and Fernando, is it necessary that a Spaniard who is as Spanish as Fernando should say he/she is a Gitano, just in case heaven forbid you might mistake them for a payo!
The reason i did mention those famous Gitanos is because I'm sick of hearing only the worst and I thought it would be nice to bring to light that there are, and probably in the majority, gitanos that blend into society and get on in life and succeed!

Look at the work that's been done and is currently being done in order to better the situation, at least see things from both perspectives instead of the most incriminating side, which face it, exists in all cultures and groups.
http://www.unionromani.org/per0001esp.htm
In which you will find under the section of 'Contexto Historico' this;

'....Por otro lado, los propios gitanos debemos hacernos un lugar como comunicadores. La explosión de Internet ha resultado clave para ello pero también faltan medios de comunicación propios, que sirvan para expresarse libremente. Un ejemplo de ello es el periódico quincenal Nevipens Romaní, que nació, de la mano del Presidente de Unión Romaní, primer Diputado gitano en el Congreso Español y Eurodiputado por el PSOE , Juan de Dios Ramírez-Heredia, dirigido a los gadyè para dar un giro a la imagen que imperaba en la sociedad mayoritaria en 1986. En la actualidad, varios jóvenes gitanos colaboran en la publicación uniendo su formación universitaria al hecho de ser gitanos'.

Miche,

"Could one go so far to say that the majority of gitanos live and function as any other Spaniard still maintaining their gitano culture? I think so."

If you're indeed talking about Spanish gypsies and not gypsies from anywhere else, my answer is, I wouldn't be so sure. As Fernando said, I still have to meet a gitano in a school, college, or work environment, in 32 years, I've only been in contact with them as visitors in hospitals, once at a police station, once a looong time ago when a small child spit on me in the street for no reason at all , once my mum was called "culo-pepino'(cucumber-ass) when she wouldn't have her fortune told by a gypsy woman in the street (it was hilarious!), when I go to the bar Cardamomo in the Santa Ana area, once recently when my Dutch boss and I were violently cursed by one while trying to bargain the buy of some football game tickets at the Santiago Bernabeu entrance (and I had to translate!); everyday I pass the Carrera de San Jerónimo from Plaza de Canalejas to Puerta del Sol and are able to see the group of gypsy women that mug people in plain view and using all sorts of tricks; or during the San Isidro festivities at some 'verbenas'(street dances), and believe me, if you had seen them the way I have (and you were Spanish or lived here maybe, that I don't know) you'd be able to tell, they are positively gitanos. Besides, they are proud people, so even if they didn't “look like gitanos”, if you actually met one and became their friend or acquaintance, they'd tell you soon enough, why shouldn't they?

I do not think Shawn's, Fernando's or my opinion is necessarily a negative one towards them, we're just stating and sharing our experiences. Their culture has some very good, even enviable parts to it, such as their extreme respect for the elderly, or their immense love of family unity. Even the fact that they are so adamantly reluctant to alter their traditions, values and general lifestyle is worth admiring, in these fast-moving times, if only some aspects weren't so negative, such as the blatant machismo. You seem to think this is an ethnic group that is very much "mingled" with everyone else in this society, but the truth is, it's not. Maybe this sounds bad to you, but things are not always how we'd want them to be. Sure there are some educated members of the gitano community that want what's wrong with their society to change, and specially call for openness, great for them! (about time!), but that's not the majority; there are also still some that totally forbid their sons and daughters, specially daughters, to date/marry "payos', luckily, they don't claim they'd “kill them first” anymore.

As Pim have posted, I could also share some experiences I or my family have had with "gitanos", and never a good one. My mother running and asking for help because a man was trying to rob her. My father putting his job at risk by hiring two gitanos who thanked him menacing him with a knife and stealing material from a factory. Or myself seeing how some friends were robbed by a gitano who was full of cocaine.

The day I saw a gitano work and live in normality as any other spaniard I would make a brindis and would be very happy to see it. Until then I will continue to think that the majority of the gitanos don't want to be normal citizens.

Fernando

What the hell do I know, of course!!
Look at the title of this thread, and if you are in accordance with it and don't see the problem with such a statement then good for you.

I like many others have had unpleasant things happen to me. I've been spat at here in London and the person wasn't an immigrant, gypsy or....bla bla what does that mean? nothing to me.
Luckily I haven't been violently robbed/attacked, no that's not true, while talking a nice stroll along a canal my husband and me were attacked by a group of white youths and then when we reported this to the police, we were mistreated in the way they dealt with us, (for which we later got a formal apology).
I just hope all visitors to Spain stay safe and can have a pleasant stay through their travels, and like another member on this board says, develop eyes at the back of your head.
There is no formulae to avoid being attacked or robbed with regards to avoiding people. Simple as that.
On the whole I've had no problems walking alone during the early hours in Madrid or while walking the 'Camino a Santiago' alone and often through the night too.

I have been reading thios thread for a while now with no comment but now ill throw mine out.. I lived and worked in Malaga for about 2 years. My experience.. not racist statement.. is that every time we had a problem in our bar or neighoorhood. it was Either the eastern european mob.. or if it was plain mugging or stabbing it was the Africans.
Im not trying to be racist at all.. i have friends from all countries. But it seems that the immgrants that come to Spain unlike in Canada are less controlled.. they allow very criminal elements into Spain to run rampant. Right now Moroccans are a big problem in this area, almost every night we hear of another stabbing in our neigborhood. Im not saying that Spaniards do not commit crimes.. but even in this past year it seems that immigrants have indeed been increasing the crime rate significantly.. especially in violent crime.

When you come from a Country where Brutality is done by the government you may be inclined to perform some brutality yourself in a free society

Someone said: "I think the moros, gitanos and sudacas (pej. that's what lots of españoles call Latinos) become criminals because they are discriminated against. They cannot get jobs because of their background"

What kind of ethics do you have??. So the cause why people can assault you in the streets or steal you in your house or even raping you is because they are discriminated against and because they don´t get jobs because of their background????. This reminds me of a conversation with a 18 yeard old colombian immigrant that said: "Colombians in Spain kill because Spaniards don´t give them jobs". Incredible!. The cause why people become delinquent or criminal is his own morality and ethics. If you are foreigner and you don´t find a job what you have to do is go back to your original country. But, instead of this, there are people that promote that this people can assault you in the streets to steal the money that you have earned legally with your hard work.

In the small villages in Spain there have always been many very poor people. They work from the dawn to the sunset taking care of their cows or their small lands. They are poorer than many immigrants that are living in Spain that work taking care of Spanish old people, but for these Spaniards from the small villages HONESTITY and HARD WORKING are major words. So, according to the morality of some people, these people should go to the cities to steal, assault, and even kill people so they can get enough money to live more decently...??.

This morning I´ve seen a group of Romanian minors (16 or 17 yeard old) in the Plaza de Ventas waiting for the victims to stop their cars in the traffic-signals. I´ve seen them assaulting a woman in her car, opening her doors, and stealing her valuables. She went out of the car and 2 of them hit her to the ground. I don´t mind if they are minors or not. They SHOULDN´T BE IN SPAIN. These kind of thing We have never had in Spain.

Here I post some piece of news that I´ve read in the last couple of days in some online newspapers so you can make an opinion of what is going on in Spain with the immigrants:

1. "A romanian man kills a Spaniard in Oliva (Valencia) and steals him 120 euros".

GANDÍA/VALENCIA La suerte que le sonrió se volvió en su contra por la codicia de un ladrón asesino. José Luis Feliu ganó el premio de una máquina tragaperras (120 euros) y su verdugo le siguió para arrebatarle el dinero. Ésta es la deducción a la que han llegado los investigadores de la Guardia Civil tras reconstruir las últimas horas de vida del vecino de Oliva..... (I can put all the article if you want).

2. "2 Eastern European immigrants have been detained because they stole lots of people in the streets as they have wore policemen suits".

MADRID.- La Policía Municipal ha detenido en la calle Montera a dos individuos que se hacían pasar por agentes del Cuerpo Nacional de Policía e intimidaban a los viandantes.

Según informaron fuentes de la Policía Municipal, un ciudadano avisó a una patrulla ya que le extrañó que estas dos personas que se hacían pasar por policías fueran extranjeras.

Los agentes comprobaron que los dos individuos, que se identificaron con pasaportes de nacionalidad rumana y checa, llevaban sendas placas de policías falsificadas....

3. "5 colombians have been detained accused of drug dealing".

Agentes adscritos a la Unidad de Drogas y Crimen Organizado (UDYCO) Costa del Sol en colaboración con la UDEV de Torremolinos (Málaga) y UDYCO de Algeciras (Cádiz) detuvieron a cinco colombianos como presuntos traficantes de drogas.

Los detenidos responden a las iniciales de A.S.R. de 31 años; R.G. de 28; A.J.B. de 23; F.G. de 30 años y J.C.C. de 39, según informaron en un comunicado fuentes del Instituto Armado.

La operación denominada "VistaSol" llevada a cabo contra este grupo
organizado de colombianos dedicados al tráfico de sustancia estupefaciente,.....

4. "Several immigrants detained accused of stealing and public alteration"

Así, en primer lugar han sido detenidos dos individuos por hurto, M.J.J.E de 39 años y M.Z.B. de 40 años, ambos de procedencia árabe, que presuntamente cometieron en hurto al descuido a unos extranjeros en la Explanada de España. También ha sido detenida una tercera personas de nacionalidad ecuatoriana, identificado como L.A.T.B., de 37 años, que presuntamente participó en una pelea y 'presa de un ataque de nervios', posteriormente, se dedicó a causar daños en los vehículos aparcados en la calle Campos Vasallos y alrededores.

Además fueron detenidos un hombre de nacionalidad rumana I.S., de 26 años, y el ciudadano lituano B. M., de 20 años, como presuntos autores de hurtos en grandes superficies

5. "A moroccoan man has been detained accused of 20 robberies".

etenido un marroquí acusado de 20 robos

Operaba en Puerto de la Cruz y normalmente actuaba en Punta Brava y en la explanada del muelle. Llevaba consigo un destornillador con el que forzaba y doblaba las puertas de los turismos que desvalijaba.

EFE, S/C de Tenerife
La Policía Nacional ha detenido en Puerto de la Cruz a un hombre al que se le acusa de ser el presunto autor de veinte delitos de robo, según informó ayer la Comisaría Provincial.

Una nota policial indica que se trata de H.B. de 33 años, de nacionalidad marroquí, considerado como el presunto autor de veinte robos en interiores de vehículos.

6. "An immigrant has appeared killed in a house in Murcia".

MURCIA.- Un joven de nacionalidad extranjera ha aparecido muerto con el cuerpo ensangrentado en una vivienda ubicada en la pedanía costera cartagenera de Islas Menores, según informaron fuentes del Centro de Coordinación de Emergencias, quienes señalaron que todo apunta a que se trata de una muerte violenta.

Las mismas fuentes indicaron que recibieron el aviso del hallazgo a las 7.45 horas, alertando de que un hombre yacía inmóvil en el suelo de un inmueble ubicado en la calle Isla de la Toja de Islas Menores, por lo que se envió una Unidad Médica de Emergencia (UME) 061.

7. "9 romanians have been detained when they were trying to steal important pictures in a gallery".

ADRID.- La policía ha frustrado el robo de dos valiosos cuadros del pintor Paul Theodor Brussel, que iban a ser subastados con un precio de salida de 300.000 euros, y ha detenido a nueve ciudadanos rumanos, cinco de ellos capturados 'in fraganti' cuando salían de una prestigiosa galería de arte con el botín.

Según informó la Jefatura Superior de Policía, los cinco detenidos tras salir de la galería de arte, situada en la madrileña calle de Alfonso XI, son Joseph R., de 57 años; Endre A., de 31; Bui Ilie V., de 29; Paul Z., de 26, y Tical S., de 23.

8. "Many immigrants detained after stealing in many house in Vega Baja y en Benidorm"

a Policía ha desarticulado una red de asaltadores de viviendas en la comarca de la Vega Baja y en Benidorm. Los apresados, 12 hombres y dos mujeres de nacionalidad argelina y rusa, transportaban la mercancía robada a Argelia con el ferry. Los detenidos actuaban en cédulas de tres o cuatro personas para cometer sus robos.

Los detenidos son 12 hombres y dos mujeres de entre 19 y 37 años, de nacionalidad argelina, excepto una de las mujeres, rusa. Todos ellos tenían ya numerosos antecedentes y reclamaciones judiciales por otros delitos, y la mayoría utilizaban identidades falsas.

9. "An argelian man accepts a 2 years sentence in prison because he tried to rape a Spanish woman".

Un argelino de 27 años aceptó una condena de un año y 11 meses de cárcel por intentar violar a una joven con la que coincidió en una zona de bares junto al río Guadalquivir.

El juicio estaba previsto en la Sección Cuarta de la Audiencia de Sevilla pero no llegó a celebrarse porque el procesado aceptó los hechos y la pena reclamada por el fiscal, que la rebajó respecto a los tres años que pedía antes del juicio.

La agresión ocurrió sobre la 1 de la madrugada del 21 de agosto de 2002 en la puerta del Bar Capote, junto al río Guadalquivir, donde el acusado R.A. se encontraba con un grupo de amigos.

10. "An ucranian man hits 22 times with a knife to another ucranian man in Palma".

L.M.

PALMA.—El agresor, un joven ucraniano, propinó un total de 22 cuchilladas a su víctima, de su misma nacionalidad, a la salida de un club de alterne de Palma. Pese a las ingente cantidad de puñaladas recibidas, la víctima se mantuvo con vida. Hasta tal punto de facilitar a los policías la identidad de su presunto atacante.

Agentes de la Unidad de Delitos Especializados y Violentos (Udev) del Grupo de Homicidios del Cuerpo Nacional de Policía se hicieron cargo de la investigación del suceso. Todo indicaba que se encontraban ante un asesinato frustrado por la fortaleza de la víctima, un joven ucraniano de 24 años de edad.

11. "5 children discovered the body of a Colombian man that have been murdered"

AVIER MARTÍNEZ/ARTURO CHECA (VALENCIA)

Un juego infantil acabó ayer en una verdadera investigación criminal. Un niño de 14 años de edad encontró el cadáver de un ciudadano colombiano cuando se escondió en un depósito de agua vacío para ocultarse de sus amigos mientras jugaban a policías y terroristas.

El macabro hallazgo tuvo lugar sobre las 19.30 horas, en una fábrica en ruinas situada en la calle Gas Lebón, en un solar muy próximo a la Ciudad de las Artes y las Ciencias. "El cuerpo estaba tapado con un colchón, pero al pisarlo salió una pierna y me asusté mucho'', afirmó el menor que localizó el cadáver.

12. "2 colombian men have been detained accused of hiting with a knife and stealing to 3 Ecuatorians"

MADRID.- La policía ha detenido a dos jóvenes colombianos de 16 y 19 años, como presuntos autores del robo y apuñalamiento anoche de tres hermanos de nacionalidad ecuatoriana en el parque de Aluche (Latina).

Un portavoz del Samur , que atendió a los heridos, indicó que dos de ellos presentaban un estado "muy grave", mientras que el tercero resultó herido leve.

Los tres hermanos, de entre 26 y 30 años, fueron abordados a las 00.30 en el parque situado entre las calles Valmojado e Illescas, por cuatro individuos que les exigieron con intimidación la entrega de sus efectos personales.

Tras robarles, los agresores les atacaron con armas blancas y se dieron a la fuga.

13. "A german couple have been hurt when they were assaulted by a group of 3 Morroccoan men".

Una pareja alemana resultó herida anoche en el distrito de Moncloa tras ser agredida por tres individuos, al parecer marroquíes, durante un intento de robo, según ha infomado un portavoz de la Jefatura Superior de Policía de Madrid.

El ataque se produjo sobre las 23.00 horas a la altura del número 5 del paseo de la Florida. Fuentes del Samur-Protección Civil indicaron que Helga S., de 58 años de edad, sufrió un traumatismo craneoencefálico de moderado a grave al caer y golpearse la cabeza contra el suelo durante el enfrentamiento.

Tras ser estabilizada, la mujer fue evacuada en una ambulancia de soporte vital avanzado hasta el Hospital Puerta de Hierro, donde ingresó con pronóstico grave.

At the same time I didn´t found any piece of news in those online newspapers where a Spaniard was involved. We used to be a very safe country, now We are not. Thanks to the 3rd world immigrants.

So here you are seeing what immigrants are doing in Spain and many other Western European countries (countries that once were pretty safe and now with the delinquency that immigrants have brought there will never be it again), and this is why many normal people are very upset about this problem. I hope you undestand the situation better.

PD: sorry for the long post.

In today´s online newspaper I´ve just seen another "multicultural enrichment" brought to Spain by immigrants...

"2 Eastern Europeans stop a Spaniard with a gunfire, take him to his chalet, aim their gunfire to the son and wife of the Spaniard, torture him, hit the Spaniard (break his teeth and his lip), and steal him 42.000 euros".

Sucesos
El empresario Vidal abandona su chalé de l'Olleria tras ser torturado por 2 ladrones
Se ha trasladado con su familia al casco urbano como medida de precaución
J. ABIETAR ZAHONERO\L'OLLERIA


ImprimirEnviar

Publicidad


Un conocido y emprendedor empresario de l'Olleria, Juan Vidal, (responsable de la cadena Vidal Descuento Duro S. A.) se ha visto obligado a dejar el chalé en el que residía a las afueras de la mencionada localidad después de que unos encapuchados asaltaran dicha vivienda. Los ladrones le torturaron a él y a su familia y se llevaron un botín de unos 42.000 euros.

Como medida de precaución recomendada por las Fuerzas de Seguridad de la población, el empresario se ha trasladado con su familia hasta una vivienda en pleno casco urbano de la localidad.

El hombre que ha pasado por este auténtico calvario es muy conocido, no solamente en la comarca de la Vall d'Albaida, sino también en buena parte de la provincia de Valencia. El empresario tiene varias fábricas en Beneixida. Las empresas que dirige se encargan de la fabricación de utensilios que en la mayoría de las ocasiones tienen como destinatarias las tiendas conocidas como de todo a 100.

El atraco se produjo a finales del mes pasado. Los autores del asalto, al parecer dos ciudadanos de Europa del Este, esperaron al empresario de madrugada en la puerta del chalé que ahora ha abandonado y cuando entró con su vehículo le apuntaron con una escopeta.

Despertados y encañonados...

(you can see the rest in here:
http://www.lasprovincias.es/valencia/edicion/prensa/noticias/Sucesos/200304/1 7/VAL-01D17VS14.html

We´ve never had this kind of violence in Spain.

This seems to have turned into an immigrant bashing forum, a place for people to vent and let it all out about what makes them upset.

Let me ask you all this question, since it is so easy to focus on the negative.

What GOOD things have immigrants done in Spain?

Let's see if we have as many POSITIVE posts as we do NEGATIVE.

Shawn

1) They have raised our birth rate, and our population from 39 millions to 40,2 millions.

2) They have provided Spain with a necessary hand work in key areas.

3) They have brought fresh air to a quite closed culture.

4) They will guarantee the future of our social system.

But some of them have also brought more violence, robbery and drugs (I tend to think it is a minority though).

Fernando

hello everybody

ert and fernando

i believe both of your statements
there BOTH realistic and logical

ert
unfortunatly yours is "politically uncorrect"
but i conside it a pure fact

fernando
i believe yours more since im not racist
and i belive it just can not represent the whole race/races
if you know what i mean.
and by the way what does this mean:
they bring a sense of fresh air to our closed society.

'....sense of fresh air...'

I understand it as 'refreshing'. London wouldn't be what it is without immigrants, in fact that's the beauty of London/Uk. The cultural diversity is so rich and wonderful and yet still so ...London and English at the same time.
I love cosmopolitan cities and that includes Madrid. VIVAAAA MADRID!!! Y LONDRES!!!!!

p.s. I'll get fellow ewe Jo-anne to head butt me the next time I post reply to one of ERT's threads.

1) They have raised our birth rate, and our population from 39 millions to 40,2 millions.

Those are wrong statistics. Just in Madrid immigrants represent the 11% (this appeared in the newspaper last year), which makes 600.000 people. Immigrants in Spain are more than 3 million. Most of them are from 20 years old until 40 so they are in the age of procreate. If We discount the 18 million of Spaniards that are older than 40 years old (ie, the ones that won´t have a child any more), then We have that there are 3 million immigrants against 8 million of Spaniards in age to have sons. Considering the fact that the immigrants have a much higher quantity of sons, then in a few years (10 or 15) you will see that in many places of Spain immigrants outnumber Spaniards. In the biggers hospitals of Madrid the natality of immigrants (mainly from southamerican amerindians) is the 50% of the total births. Do you want this for our country??. Do you want that when you are older most of the people you find in the streets are northafricans and southamericans??. Did you know that Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Antwerken are going to be muslim by 2015?. Did you know that if the current demographics continue Denmark is going to be a muslim country by 2040??. What I have just said is for real, so take your own conclussions...

2) They have provided Spain with a necessary hand work in key areas.

Considering the fact that 5 years ago there weren´t almost any immigrant and that the touristic industry and agricultural industry was working perfectly well with just Spaniards, I wonder why is it that in just 5 years the immigrants are so necessary and why We couldn´t live without their hand work now??. Maybe it is because many immigrants have replaced many Spaniards from doing these types of work and they accept to be paid a missery for doing those works. That is the reason why more and more immigrants will be comming, because they accept less salaries than Spaniards for the same work. Conclussions: cheap hand work, worst work conditions, less ethnic Spaniards working in those areas and more and more immigrants coming each year.

3) They have brought fresh air to a quite closed culture.

???.

I won´t comment this because I could be very demolishing with my arguments.

4) They will guarantee the future of our social system.

I think you will have to start thinking for yourself and not believing so much in the media. 90% of the immigrants are of very low income. Thus the only tax they pay is social security (they hardly pay the IRPF -the most important tax in Spain- because their incomes are less than 9000 euros a year in many cases. After each immigrant working with a very low income there are probably 3 sons that go to free schools, free hospitals, free subsidies, ... So for apporting very little they get a lot (just a public place in a public school cost 2000 euros a year for the public system. Multiply it for 3 sons in each family, you have that someone that apports let´s say 60 euros a month in social security costs to the public system 2000*3=6000 euros a year just in public schools). So the problem is not that they are going to guarantee our social system, the question is that they are going to ruin at the same time other aspects of our social system (We will see it in 15 or 20 years). I´ve recently seen that the "gastos" in medicaments have risen a lot in the last 3 years. This is because 3 million of new people have come to Spain, and even if they are illegal in our country they can go to hospitals for free and they get free medicaments, ...This is just the begining. We are "regalando" our country to the immigrants. You will see it in 20 or 30 years.

BTW, another news from today´s online newspapers:

"5 colombians hitting each others in the streets in Madrid". They had to go to the hospital.
"6 ecuatorians hitting each others in another streets in Madrid".They had to go to the hospital. They were drunk.

You can read it here:

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2003/04/18/madrid/1050653736.html

miche,

I understand that you are an immigrant (or son of immigrants) in London. That is why you love the "multicultural London". Have you bothered to ask a Londoner if they "love the multicultural London"??. I think they have the right to decide if they want the multicultural London or not, it is not you who has to decide it.

Take The Netherlands as an example...They are the MOST TOLERANT society and country in the world but they have massively voted a far-right political party (Pim Fortuyn). Millions of dutch people have voted that they don´t want a multicultural Netherlands and that they want to restrict immigration.

In some cities the far right party got the majority of the votes, guess which were the cities where this happened...?. Yes, the "multicultural cities"!. And this comming from the most tolerant country in the world, so imagine what they think about "multiculturality in their cities".

miche, I don´t think I´m going to reply to your posts because our positions are totally opposed and it is a waste of time. The difference between you and I is that you are an immigrant (or son of immigrants), thus you have an interested position in what you say (you want that Europe becomes much more "multicultural" because you are an immigrant) and that I´m a Spaniard who wants that his country and society don´t go to hell with massive 3º world immigration. I think you have no right to tell us what We should do in our society. It is us who has to decide it. I don´t opinate if I want that 3 million Nigerians go to your country (Ecuador) to live permanently. I understand that it is Ecuatorians who has 100% the right to decide it, so I shut up. So, it should be the same for you.

ERT, my immigrant heart is broken, I thought we had something going there. :__(
I didn't know I was capable of love, but I realise now I am, the pangs of rejection are too much .......

Thanks for editing your last post. I'm touched that actually you do still care for me, somewhere down there I know -I know- I just know you still love me.
Un beso :p

ERT,

I see that you can't find anything good with immigrants and tend to focus only on the negative, and that is certainly your choice. I am not here to judge anyone.

From what I gather from your posts, and PLEASE correct me if I an wrong, you appear to put the blame solely on the immigrants, but what is the GOVERNMENT of Spain trying to do to stop the situation of immigration and all of the WRONGS, as you see it?

Please refrain from getting emotional or making snide remarks when answering this question, if you so choose to answer.

I am trying to see your feelings on government intervention with the immigration situation. You have presented numerous examples of immigrants attacking Spaniards, but now it is time to go beyond that. Your argument is only on the surface. Let's delve deeper and look at all sides to see if there truly is a solution.

We may not agree, but if we have a healthy dialogue, where we neither become emotional nor write remarks that try to hurt the other, I just may see some of your side. I am willing to listen to all sides of this topic, rather than just looking at it from my side. I am aksing that you leave emotions and personal feelings out of the debate and let's have a logical discussion.

I am anxious to read your answer. The same debate is going on in the US, so it's not just Spain dealing with immigration, although I am quite certain that you know this.

Have a great day,

Shawn

ERT writes:
I am passing a message from my Cuban cousins.

They too are incensed with you Spaniards for sending undesirable immigrants. You used Cuba as a dumping ground to send us some of the most violent people in the world.

They are speaking of the devil Fidel Castrowho's dad is a Gallego from El Ferrol!

Do you think that Spain could take him back?Please!

He's killing all of my 3rd world cousins!
Please take him back, ERT!

If you take him back my Cuban cousins promise not to settle in Spain, they will remain in Cuba working at your Melia hotels!

Gracias!

hello everybody

booklady

hey...what are you saying..hehe..whats that bull**** youre talking

just kidding :p

glad to see another cuban of pure spanish ancestry just like me.

hehe youre kind of funny with your castro-bashing comments.

yeahyeah hes some son of a gun
but please lets not blame the galeguinos

ERT,
I don't know why you feel so threatened by me,
I haven't told anyone who they are, like you do to me.
You say I'm not a Londoner, well I am.
I don't think our differences are simply that I am not a Spaniard, I'm not skin deep like you are.
And believe it when I say that I too don't want to be a part of your small ERT and suffering world, it's just not healthy and if this thread is meant to provoke, then yes you have my pity.
Because while I think there can be a healthy discussion about immigration, this thread, it's title to start with, is so warped there's no ground to stand on.
Oh, and I'm here to stay so get used to it.

An Ecuadorian/Pakistani/Londoner being
Like it or lump it

I want to explain something: I as an individual can relate to people from other cultures withouth a problem. I´m not closed at all in that matter. But I as an "individual living in a colective" (Spanish society) I´m against that other colectives come massively to Spain because the only thing they will cause is create problems in the existing Spanish society.

SRedw,

I had written a long message answering your questions but I´ve lost it when I did a "copy and paste". basically what I was saying is that multicultural societies have never worked and will never work. There is no example in the world, in the past or in the present where multicultural societies are working. In many times it ended dramatically (Yugoslavia as an example). The government can´t do magic, if millions of immigrants want to come to Spain the government will only be capable of repatriate a minimum number of illegals. The government can´t either prevent that the immigrants kill, steal or rape. The government can put them in jail AFTER they´ve commited their acts but not preventing it. The government can´t differenciate delinquents from non-delinquents when accepting inmigrants. So it is not easy for the government to do something totally eficcient.


And for the US, I know that the Southwest of the US is being invaded by millions of Mexicans. I´m against it and I´m also against the desire of many of them that want that Spanish could become a cooficial language in the Southwest of the US. The more mexicans they are, the more power they will get and the more problems they will create to the existing anglo society. So extrapolate it to Spain and you will understand my position much better.

ERT,

Thanks for the response and I do see where you are coming from. We have many Hispanics who are starting to come to Virginia and it has had a great impact on this state. Our state agencies are scambling to find bilingual speakers, and they are far and few in between.

I understand that the government can't stop people from doing criminal acts. I just wanted to get your feeling on the government and how they can intervene in any way.

I am looking forward to coming to Spain in June and having a good time.

Thanks again and I value your response.

Shawn

ERT,

Unless I've missed something, the U.S. is definitely a multi-ethnic/cultural society.

Yes, we've had problems, and they still exist, but every day as I walk down a street, I see more diverse cultures than most of us can even fathom.

Are there problems within the immigrants? Of course there are, but it isn't restricted to one or two groups of people.

I remember, over twenty years ago, when they allowed Cuban nationals into the U.S. Comments were made about how Castro had emptied his jails and prisons, sending the flotsam of Cuba to our shores. One of the "camps" that these refugees went to was in Wisconsin. Rumors spread about how they were all criminals from Cuba, and it upset people. But, as some of these new Americans were processed into society, the people in the area found out very quickly how the warnings from the "anti-immigration" people were wrong. They not only became a viable part of a new society, but introduced new cultural experiences for everyone. It was an awakening for a lot of people with closed minds.

If there is on thing we should have taken with us from WWII is the fact that "ethnic superiority" is not acceptable. The problem is, too many people in the world haven't, and "ethnic cleansing" and genocide are still practiced. Until we find it not only intolerable, but act against it, we obviously haven't learned our lessons well enough. Stopping immigration only feeds the fires of those who would practice discrimination.

Wolf

Wolf,

Precissely what people that are against massive immigration like me are trying to persuade is that multicultural societies have never worked and will never work without creating lots of problems. No one is talking about "ethnic superiority" (if I was a Chinesse I would try to avoid that China became a country where there were millions of whites, blacks, muslims and others, just to protect my culture and society and to avoid future problems).

The US has a serious problem with racism. Maybe it is not in the surface but it exist down the surface. It comes from many years ago and it is appareantly hidden but when some things like the Rodney King (?) happened in Los Angeles the real situation comes to the surface. There were many deaths when the blacks accused that white policemen of brutality. The blacks arrased the city and also had brutality against the Asian community. I think there were also some other great problems in other cities aswell protagonized by blacks against whites and asians. After it another campaign from the government tried to make you believe that wasn´t for real and that you lived in a great multicultural country. The fact is that that is not true. Just considering other facts like Affirmative Action (which is a law that allows the racism against whites just for not being an ethnic minority) then you realize that living in a multicultural society brings lots of problems. I don´t want the same for Spain. I don´t want that my sons in the future could be discrimined when they have to go to college because there are cuotas for northafricans or southamericans.

I really believe that there are going to happen very bad things in Europe in the future because this massive immigration. Sweden was the safer country in the world and now it has a very high rate of homicides and rapes (almost all protagonized by immigrants).

You also talk about when the Cubans refugees went to Wisconsin and said that "about the rumors spread about how they were all criminals from Cuba, and it upset people". In Spain these are not rumors but EVERYDAY NEWS in the newspapers (I´ve put some examples in a previous posts about killings, stealing, torturing and raping protagonized by immigrants), so realize why people is upset.

ERT,

There's no doubt we still have racism and bigotry in the U.S. Also, there's no doubt that there are hostilities towards immigrants. There is also job discrimination against people which is unfair. But, like any nation, we are trying to come to grip with the problem, and change things. Albeit, often, way too slowly.

In the U.S., there have been reports about immigrants having an extremely high incident rate when it comes to crime, but one of the things that always seems to go hand in hand with the problem is the lack of job opportunities these new people have. Often they aren't given a chance to improve their lot, and much of that has to do with language barriers, and ethnic stereo-typing. It happens, and we can't deny it.

I remember reading something that was written nearly 75 years ago, by an advocate of immigration, who was in the U.S. Senate. He was addressing his constituents, and he asked one question. "How many members of our august group can say that they stand more than two generations away from members of your own family that were not immigrants?"

According to the information I read, only sixteen members of the 97 present could raise their hands, and claim they were more than two generations removed from immigration.

Does this mean it would work for Spain? I don't know. I appreciate your concerns, as a Spaniard, and at the same time wonder what the future has for society if we don't at least try to understand how important the issue is for people in nations where there is no hope for a future. Maybe the reason that it's worked somewhat better in the U.S. is because the nation is so large. Of course, if you're Hispanic, African-American, or Asian, you may not think it's worked all that well. I'd have to agree with them on this issue.

I don't have any answers to the problem. I wish I did, because I'd certainly share it with the world.

Wolf

With 'Congeston charges' forced upon those who wish to drive into the centre of London, (started in February), I can understand the 'feeling stiffled' attitude.
Wolf mentioned the US being much bigger, but all cities are comparable in that they suffer the same 'stiffleness' and daily grind and what with more and more people each day heading for the big cities- really, it's not so different.

We are now charged £5 to enter into town with our cars, and people are not happy.

I often get the feeling that our cities are about to explode and that space is being taken away from us. The nice view of a sports field from my home will soon be a view of a nice housing development site. What will become of the foxes and birds who take refuge in this field?
This makes me feel uncomfortable, but it's a person's right to move to a place where they believe they can have a chance of a stable future, and these people need housing too.

Which brings me to something I've just remembered...while on the camino (sorry about droning on about it, but it's the reason I came to love Spain), at a water fountain I had a brief chat with a Spanish cyclist which went something like this..

-So what country are you from?
-I'm from London
-Ohhhh you're from England!!
-Yes, but my parents are from...but I was born in London (quickly added cos I know I don't look like your typical English lass)
-and you? Which part of Spain are you from?
-Ohhh I'm a Madrileno, but no one is reeeally from Madrid, my parents came from Valencia and Barcelona.
(giggles).

p.s. I get loads of laughs out of my origins, fellow peregrinos were falling over themselves with curiousity and placing bets on guessing correctly where I was from, a packet of cigs and round of beers being at stake- I felt quite proud of myself!!! - what a roar.
Happy Hols everyone!!

Wolf,

From what I gather from your reply you accept the fact that there is racism and bigotry in the US (a multicultural society). So, your multicultural society also fails as I´ve pointed it out before. Monocultural and monorracial societies are not racists. Multicultural and multirracial societies have a lot of racism despite the efforts of the government and the media to reeducate the people to be gentle to other cultures and races in your country. I don´t want the "guetto culture" in Spain and I´m pretty sure that if there are many different races and cultures in Spain the guetto culture is going to be growing a lot (just look in Marseille and Montpellier in France and you´ll see what I´m talking about). No one can modify the natural instint of the people to prefer his own community and culture more than others. Japan is not a multicultural and multirracial country. They are very proud of what they are in all senses. They don´t need a "diversified culture" in their country. Thus they don´t have problems with racism or multiculturalism.

In addition I have to say that America is different than Europe in this issue. America have been founded by immigrants from different cultures and races in different waves. Whites, blacks, asians have immigrated to America in the last centuries. So America is a "natural" melting pot. Even most of the so called ""Hispanics"" are mainly Asian in origin that came from the Bering strait a few millenium ago (they are racially speaking Asians). Europe is not. Europe, Africa, and Asia are basically monorracial regions. So importing different races and cultures will make a lot of inconvenients to the people in those regions. Europeans of today are in the land of their ancestors for many centuries, even millenia. Any church you see in Spain, even from the VIII century has been made from the ancestors of the people you can see today in the streets. No colective came and go out of Spain. So the Spaniards of today may be are happy with what they are and don´t want to change it. That is why you see that millions of Europeans in France, Italy, Austria, Belgium, Holland, Denmark,... have voted far right parties to stop the immigration from different cultures into their lands.

BTW, another "multicultural enrichment" that I´ve just seen in today´s newspaper (another group of Ecuatorians drunk and fighting in Palma de Mallorca. 1 of them was seriously injured. miche, this is what many of your countrymen are doing in Spain. It doesn´t surprise us because it is very usual in the news):
http://www.elmundo-eldia.com/2003/04/17/eivissa/1050608150.html

Otra pelea en un piso de inmigrantes ecuatorianos termina con un herido grave

El agredido asegura que su hermano, que huyó del lugar de los hechos, le causó heridas en la cabeza con una botella rota, pero se negó a interponer una denuncia porque estaba borracho

RICARDO FERNANDEZ

EIVISSA.- Una nueva pelea entre ciudadanos de origen ecuatoriano se saldó la pasada madrugada con un herido grave, que precisó ser ingresado en el hospital de Can Misses.

Al igual que en el incendio de la madrugada del pasado lunes en la calle Archiduque Luis Salvador de Vila, una de las causas que originó la violenta disputa fue el alcohol.

Esta vez no hubo incendio. Según dos testigos presenciales, S.P.C., de 45 años, mantuvo la madrugada de ayer, poco antes de las 0.00 horas, una violenta discusión con su hermano, en el apartamento en el que residen ambos, ubicado en el edificio Galaxia, en la calle Pedro Matutes Noguera del barrio de Figueretes de la capital pitiusa.

Los mismo testigos explicaron a los agentes de la Policía Local de Vila que el hermano de S.P.C. se encontraba bajo los efectos del alcohol.

Según las mismas fuentes, en un momento de la pelea, el agresor rompió una botella de cristal en la cabeza de su hermano, causándole graves hemorragias que, gracias a una intervención rápida de los servicios de emergencia del 061 no le costaron la vida......

ERT I know you hate me, what I represent, Ecuadorians, most South Americans exept for Argentians, Africans, Gypsies YOUR OWN PEOPLE.....
You can repeat it a thousand times,- are you trying to change my mind? lol.
I can only see that you are squirming and wasting a lot of energy in this.

As for drunk Ecuadorians, once on my 21st birthday I drank a bit too much Tequila staggered to the bathroom tried to sit on the toilet but fell over and smacked my forehead on the the hand wash basin. My 'herrida' was a huge bump on my head. There! It wasn't reported in 'The Times' but that's another account you can quote me on to support your theories.
Is our engagement still on?

Miche,

Miche, Booklady,

http://humferier.free.fr/sad/drink1.gif

I toast both of you.

Some people just don't realize the positive impact that immigration ends up having on society. Even after Booklady posted the link, and information about the growth in world population, they didn't bother to understand.

I for one believe strongly in the motto on the statue of liberty. For your families, and my own, there would be no life here had immigration been done away with.

One of the most joyous holidays we have had was in northwestern Wisconsin when we were able to host a family of Cuban immigrants for Thanksgiving many years ago, not long after they had arrived. We thought we understood what it meant, but when the words came from them, and the tears in their eyes knowing they were free from Castro's grip meant more than it could to anyone who has been born here, and takes what we have for granted.

What made the event even more memorable, and important, is how they felt so strongly about their future, even though they were battling to learn English, and had nothing as possessions.

To anyone who takes what we have for granted, I suggest they try doing something like this. It's a real eye opener. I'll treasure the memory until the day I die.

Wolf (I just had to use your gremlin Bookie. Hope you don't mind.)

clink clink to you both.

Thank you and a Cuba Libre to you both!

Feliz Pascua ... Happy Easter...Happy Passover

miche,

I don´t hate Ecuatorians, I don´t hate southamericans (the so-called """Hispanics"""). I just point out how incivilized many """Hispanics""" are. If they don´t want to accept our norms, mentality and behavoiur they shouldn´t have come to Spain. This is the type of things what I´m talking about (that are very usual in Madrid nowadays thanks to the immigrants):
miche: today one of your countrymen (Ecuador) have been killed in Madrid by a group of dominicans. It´s very usual these kind of news in the newspapers and We madrileños have to put up with them):

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2003/04/22/madrid/1050996223.html

Martes, 22 de Abril de 2003

HERIDO SU HERMANO DE 23
Muere un ecuatoriano de 25 años que fue apuñalado en Latina

EFE

MADRID.- Un ecuatoriano de 25 años, Segundo F.E., murió tras ser agredido por arma blanca en el distrito de Latina. Su hermano Raúl Gustavo, de 23, resultó herido, según la Jefatura Superior de Policía. Según varios testigos, los agresores podrían ser tres dominicanos.

Los hechos ocurrieron sobre las 23.00 horas de ayer a la altura del número 293 de la calle Valmojado, cuando se originó una pelea entre éstos y tres personas más por causas que aún no han sido determinadas.

Según el Samur-Protección Civil, el hombre de 25 años presentaba una herida en la espalda por arma blanca y se encontraba en parada cardiorrespiratoria. Tras los intentos de reanimación, fue trasladado al Hospital Clínico, donde ingresó con pronóstico crítico.

El hermano tenía heridas en ambas piernas también por arma blanca y fue trasladado al mismo centro.

Con esta muerte, son ya 39 las personas que han fallecido de forma violenta en la Comunidad de Madrid en lo que va de año, lo que supone una muerte de este tipo cada tres días.

------------------

Just in the few days I´ve started this thread in MM forum you have been able to see the amount of crimes and delinquency and assasination that foreigners have brought to Spain. It´s the same in ALL western European countries (immigrants have changed our peaciful neighbourhoods and cities). I couldn´t find any news where Spaniards were involved. Should We accept the Bronx in Spain?. No way!. So understand why millions of Europeans have voted fair right political parties (it´s not racism but using common sense).
I know that We can´t blame a whole colective (immigrants) or a whole country (Colombia, Ecuador, Morocco) for the things a small group of their countrymen are doing in Spain but I´m sure that even in the Bronx it´s a small percentaje the people that comits the crimes and robberies. Hey, but who wants to live in the Bronx???.

Maybe you southamericans don´t understand what is going on in Spain caused by immigrants but that is because in your countries (Colombia, Mexico, Peru, Chile, ...) you are very used to common violence and don´t believe that We Spaniards are not used to it and don´t want to be used to it.

miche, today 3 young Ecuatorians (your countrymen) have hit with a knife a young Spaniard (he had to go to the hospital) when he was entering into the high school. These 3 young ecuatorians don´t belong to mafias and are not common delinquents but they have hurt a young Spaniard with a knife. Do We need this kind of uncivilized people in Spain?. Never in the past these type of thing happened. Just after third world immigrants came to Europe We started to know these kind of incidents. Now in Germany there is a bus that have been hijacked by a young turk. Hey, We don´t need uncivilized people in Europe.

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2003/04/25/madrid/1051258468.html

LOS AGRESORES HAN SIDO DETENIDOS
Un joven, apuñalado a las puertas de su instituto en Carabanchel

MADRID

NOTICIAS RELACIONADAS

EUROPA PRESS.- Un joven de 18 años de edad resultó herido por arma blanca a primera hora de esta mañana al ser agredido por tres ecuatorianos, al parecer menores de edad, a las puertas del instituto donde estudia, situado en el número 84 de la calle de Antonio de Leyva, en el distrito de Carabanchel.

Según informó un portavoz de la Jefatura Superior de Policía, los presuntos agresores -que iban indocumentados- fueron arrestados poco tiempo después de que se produjera el ataque y los agentes que llevaron a cabo su detención les intervinieron una navaja que tenía restos de sangre.

Sobre las 8.40 horas, tres ecuatorianos se acercaron al joven español cuando iba a entrar al instituto y tras una breve pelea fue apuñalado en el abdomen. Médicos del Samur-Protección Civil le estabilizaron y trasladaron en una ambulancia de soporte vital avanzado hasta el Hospital 12 de Octubre, donde ingresó con pronóstico reservado.

En las últimas semanas, el distrito de Carabanchel está siendo escenario de numerosas reyertas entre jóvenes de origen sudamericano y españoles.

La Policía ha incautado dos cuchillos de cocina, una navaja y un gancho metálico a los tres jóvenes detenidos.

---------------------

I won´t post any more news. I just wanted to show you that almost all the murdering, pickpockets, delinquents, ... in Spain are not Spaniards but foreigners (immigrants) and how Spain (and all Europe) is changing to worst thank to them.

ERT,

Are we to gather from your report that nobody had ever been stabbed by a Spaniard in the past? Are we also to believe that absolutely no Spaniards committed a crime during the last several days, or physically harmed anyone? Are we also to believe that Europeans don't do anything to each other, it's only these "outsiders" that come in and cause crime?

Wow! That's kind of tough to swallow, isn't it? Sounds kind of like something a guy said 70 years ago. What was his name? Oh yeah! I remember now. Adolph Hitler.

Wolf

Wolf,

I´ve never said Spaniards didn´t comit crimes or or robberies (although also in many cases they were gipsies) in the past. Also note, that violent assaults and crimes (like when 8 morroccoan men raped a Spanish woman or when 1 young Moroccoan kills a monk and a woman because they told him to not stay in Spain) like the ones that immigrants have brought to us have been very rare in Spain. I´ve said that all nations (even Sweden) has their share of criminals and thieves (you can search for it in a previous post).

And I say it again, in the last 2 weeks I´ve not seen any news in the online newspapers where I got the news I´ve posted in this thread were Spaniards were involved. 90% of the news involving violence, assasinations, robberies, rapes,... involve immigrants. They represent just the 5% of the Spanish population yet they get 90% of the news of violence and crime. Does it take you to any conclussion? (I hope you don´t fail in the same mistake in which others fail of atributing the savages crimes, violence or robberies of the immigrants because they are opresse minorities. I don´t know what is the cause of it. What I know is that I want a peaceful country. If that implies that I have to say "no" to a multicultural society then I would say "no" to it anyday of the week).

What I´m trying to explain is that multicultural societies have never worked and it is a fantasy to believe the contrary when factual data have shownn otherwise. If I were to take a confortable opinion and if I were to try to look friendly and "open minded" to everyone then I would choose to think and say what you and others are saying. I´m not. I prefer to use common sense and factual data than to believing in "good words" and "fantasy societies". You, as an american, may be live with common violence in a daily basis. In Spain 100% of the cities and neighbourhoods (except gipsy ones) have been always absolutely safe even at 5.00 a.m.). Now, certain places in Spain are not safe. Why?. Because third world immigrants have made them to be an inhospitality place. And, stadistics also say that it is the same in France, England, Italy, Sweden and other countries.

And I don´t know why you have to talk about Hitler. What We are talking about has nothing to do with fascism, nazism, or racism. We are talking about common sense and living in a peaceful country. With a multicultural, multiethnic society this will never happen. If anybody want to believe in fantasies and utophies, good for them. I´m not that person.

-----------------------

Wold, After I posted this reply to you I went to read www.elmundo.es again. I searched for "Madrid" and I´ve found another savage assault by immigrants. In this case, to a blind Spaniard done by 3 Moroccoans. These 3 moroccoans assaulted the ONCE blind coupon seller, hit him (he was found in the ground with a lot of blood) and stole him. Never in the past We have had this kind of savage acts. You are not a Spaniard so may be you don´t understand how safe We used to live and how upset are many of us about it (the ones that are not brainwashed by the multiculturalist media).

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2003/04/25/madrid/1051290736.html

Though it is true that Spain has always been a safe country, it is not less true that we have had crime all of the time (as any other country), and that those crimes were committed by spaniards (a minority of them by gypsies).

What has happened is that the inmigrants who came here to commit crimes have been added to this pool of undesirables.

Fernando

Fernando,

I think you still don´t understand the situation. ALL the countries in the world have delinquents and criminals. The difference is that in Spain or any other Western country the % of delinquency and crimes was minimal and didn´t represent a real problem (ie, maybe 0.05% of the Spaniards were delinquents). In most Central and Southamerica, as well as any other third world country, delinquency and crime is a very big problem. If We import people from those countries We will also import their tendencies towards crime and delinquency. As immigration is a new concept in Spain (just started in the last 4 or 5 years) We don´t realize that our society will be a very violent society (like those of Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, Honduras,...) if We let that millions of them come to live in our country. They come from countries where life doesn´t mean much for many of them (in Brazil even the police kills childs in the streets). The % of immigrants in Spain is the 5% yet they are commiting the 80% of the crimes and delinquency. So Spaniards representing the 95% of the population only represent the 20% of the crimes and delinquency but the 5% of immigrants comit most of the crime. Does it mean anything to you?. When immigrants (or their descendants) represent the 15% or 20% of the total population, I´m totally sure that crime in Spain will be like those of Southamerica (and many could not walk alone in the streets in most cities in Spain).

A brazilian friend of mine that is living now in Valladolid told me that she was very happy and is enjoying the fact that she can walk alone in the streets after 19.00, because in her city in Brazil she can´t). Do you want the same for Spain?. Don´t doubt it that it will happen if We still keep thinking that third world immigrants have the same mentality and ethics towards crime and delinquency like the one We Europeans have.

And this is a fact that you will realize in the future for Spain: those neighbourhoods were a majority of immigrants live will be full of crimes and delinquency.

And, come on, realize that the kind of brutal delinquency and crimes that are happening in Spain (like some of the ones I´ve posted in the news), NEVER happened in the past in Spain. And if it happened, it was once in a year, and not an everyday news.

Fernando,
It is a pleasure to read your responses. You are always the voice of reason and logic. I suspect that if we do a statistical sample of crime in Spain today, it would be found that all groups commit crimes. But even so, in looking at the Interpol statistics, Spain seems to have the lowest murder rates among Southern European countries and that is probably why so many people feel safe there.

Do you know which ministry keeps crime statistics in Spain?

ERT,
Are you against "all" immigration, or just illegal immigration?

"voice of reason and logic"??. So, I don´t have reasonable arguments?. Oh, great, whatever you say Booklady. Now, I´m going to show you how you think you are reasonable and I will find that you are not.

You say that all groups comit crimes and delinquency. So for you it is the same the groups who have negligible crimes and delinquency in Spain (western european drugdealers in Spain for example; from France, Holland, England) and the groups that are commiting crimes and delinquency everyday in thousands (thirdworld immigrants)(including murders and violent assaults)??.

So, for you it is the same a young french dealing with "extasis" in Ibiza than the 1500 moroccoans, 1200 colombians,... that comit murders, violent assaults, robberies in bank and houses, rape,...???. So immigrants representing a 5% of the total Spanish population comit 80% of all the crimes and delinquency and you want us to believe that that is the same than the 39 million of Spaniards that comit the 20% restant??.

So, let´s say that just 1 Japanesse is in prison in Spain and that there are 3000 Moroccoans, 4000 Colombians, 2000 Ecuatorians in prison in Spain?. So, if all groups comit delinquency all groups are the same???. Japanesse=Moroccoans in terms of delinquency in Spain??.

Wow, that is a nice way of reasoning...

I think I´m going to stop posting this kind os issues, you don´t want to realize FACTS and you still keep believing in something (multiculturalism) that have been proven is a totally disaster.

I´m again illegal immigrants and also I´m totally against massive immigration, even if it is legal. 3 million immigrants in a medium size country like Spain in just 3 or 4 years (in % it is exactly the same as if the US had received in the last 3 years 15 or 20 million of immigrants) is much more than enough. And everyone in the streets is saying it: there are too many immigrants!.

ERT writes,
What's wrong with paying a compliment to a young man whom I have found to be both reasonable and logical in his arguments? That's my opinion, ERT.

I made no comment about your arguments, ERT, because I find your premises hard to understand, and your arguments to be too convoluted. That is why I asked you about which type of immigration,legal or illegal, you were speaking about in your posts.

You have misunderstood my statement: I said to Fernando that,
"I suspect that if we do a statistical sample of crime in Spain today, it would be found that all groups commit crimes."
Please note that I said a statistical sample of crime. I did not stipulate which types of crime. Neither does it mean that the groups are equally represented. Some groups may commit more crime than others. In essense you will find that crime is committed by all types of people. Some more some less. By the same token there are various types of crimes, white collar crime can be as damaging as blue collar crime, but both are different from crimes of violence. Look at the Interpol data on crime and you can get an idea of what I mean.

In January 2002 I was in Spain for two weeks - the same time as when a young Ecuadorian man who after trying to enter the discoteque 'Maremagnum' (A well known Latin music venue!!!) with friends was attacked and died after being thrown into the waters of the port of Barcelona - the scene of the nightclub.
It made me feel sick and anxious and very confused because my experiences of Spain have been nothing short of fantastic.
A few years back I was at the same club and had a pleasant enough time, pleasant enough that I didn't want to believe the news.

ERT you must be secretly proud of this even if it did happen in Barcelona.

How many wrongs are done to both legal and illegal immigrants? But these injustices are not in 'ElMundo' who only on the whole choose to report the worst possible facets of immigration.
I wonder why?
This is obviously how all Spaniards behave to immigrants.

http://www.llacta.org/organiz/llactacaru/coms/c0016.htm

http://www.terra.es/actualidad///articulo/html/act36024.htm

To all those reading this thread, Spaniards like to behave in these racist ways and very much believe in murder and eradication as the solution to immigration and keeping Spain the pure and innocent country it is and always has been.

IS THIS A FAIR STATEMENT? IS IT?
Well i'm certainly starting to change my mind.

I understand there will be a Spain v Ecuador match soon, well I hope my bronze and black brothers kick your f****** arses!
p.s. The security guards of the club were let off and freed.Surprise surprise

ERT says

Yes look at the FACTS above and looking at it,.. yes it's a total disaster.

For once I agree with you ERT

I recently returned from Seville where I spent several days over Semana Santa. We were warned by a local lady to be careful in and around the Barrio Santa Cruz where we were staying but we neither experienced nor saw anything untoward. I did notice, however, several South American families who were out enjoying Semana Santa with everyone else. I assume these families had emigrated to Spain, they were well dressed - not expensively, they were probably working people - looked "respectable" etc so it just goes to show that not all immigrants do not wish to, or are incapable of, integation with the Spanish. In the UK much is made of the issue of asylum seekers who are often condemned as just being in the country for the social security benefits and the easy life. People never stop to consider what these asylum seekers might have been through and the experiences which forced them to leave their homelands. I can't imagine what the UK would be like now if nobody had emigrated to the country. Probably pretty crap!

ERT,

since you have been so willing to "enlighten" us with your links I have a link JUST FOR YOU.

LINK PARA ERT

Bricamb,
Thank you for your reasonable and objective response! You say: The same can be said of the United States! Without immigration the U.S. would not be the great economic power that it is today.

Guapetona, Excellent site for all paranoid, masochists, who fail to understand that legal immigration will save the countries of Europe from negative population growth. In 20-40 years they will be glad that intrepid peoples from all over the world chose thier country to settle.

Look at the articles in this thread about immigration.

miche,

For your information the responsible of the assasination of that Ecuatorian man in Maremagnum in Barcelon was James Anglada, another SOUTHAMERICAN IMMIGRANT IN SPAIN:

http://noticias.ya.com/fotos/200202/0806.htm

The cause of the death of the equatorian was not that he was hurt during the fight (he was hurt indeed but that wasn´t the cause of the death). The cause of the death was when he was thrown to the sea. Guess, who was the one that throw that Ecuatorian man to the sea??. James Anglada, ANOTHER SOUTHAMERICAN IMMIGRANT:

http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/ediciones/20020210/espana/d10esp0303.php

"Tres de los cuatro implicados en la muerte del ecuatoriano han salido en libertad bajo fianza mientras que el principal implicado, James Anglada, ingresó en la cárcel Modelo de Barcelona tras confesar que tiró al mar a Pacheco y asegurar que se trató de un accidente".

http://arcos.inf.uc3m.es/~juange/lro/00-01/grupos/mirror/www.estrelladigital.es/

"La juez dicta prisión para James Anglada tras reconocer que tiró al mar al ecuatoriano del 'caso Maremagnum'".

The Ecuatorian man was so drunk that he reacted in a violent way when he couldn´t get into the pub. Drunk people are not allowed to enter into pubs. He took several bottles and hurt with them to the guards of the disco in the head. But I repeat it, guards of discoteques are always very stupid and violent. But I repeat it, the cause of the death was that he died "ahogado" in the sea. James Anglada (ANOTHER SOUTHAMERICAN INMIGRANT) was the one that threw him to the sea. So, now take your own words and don´t say so many irrealities. You´ve been ridiculous trying to put a news from 5 months ago trying to make us believe that it was a Spaniard the murder when it was James Anglada, ANOTHER SOUTHAMERICAN INMIGRANT. But, in the last 5 months I can put 100 news were Ecuatorians were involved (assasination, murders, reyertas, rapes,...).

So you can eat your own words now. You´ve been ridiculized by your own words...

miche, also wrote:

"I hope my bronze and black brothers kick your f****** arses!"

That is the kind of expressing that many southamericans have (the so-called """""hispanics""""". There is nothing more incoherent to see pure indians or almost pure indians call themshelves "latinos" just because they speak a latin tongue. If the Romans (Roman Empire) saw it....I wonder what Ecuatorians or most southamericans have of "Hispanic" or "latino". Can you tell me?). Did you get an education where you were at school?.

Bricamb, there are 4000 million of poors in the world. Should they be allowed to enter into Europe because they are all poor in their own countries??. Should Europe let all africans (500 millions) come to Europe because they are poor there??. Why don´t they start to take responsible meassure like controling their own natality like We Europeans are doing??. Why Southamerican amerindian/mestizos families have 8 sons if they can´t feed them??. Why is it that after they have had 8 sons they realize that they can´t feed them and so they have to emmigrate to Europe or ask for money to the government?. It´s their own irresponsability why they are so poor and unsuccesful. Bricamb, in 50 years many europeans will be outnumbered by africans, southamericans, asians in their own country. Do you like it?.

Booklady wrote this:
"The same can be said of the United States! Without immigration the U.S. would not be the great economic power that it is today."

If the US is a great economic power it is not becaue 30 million mexicans have entered into the US to dish or work in the Burguer Kind. It is because there are 230 million of Europeans that have made that country a great economic power. If there were 230 million of Mexicans in the US and just 15 million of Europeans, the US would be another Mexico=third world country.

Booklady wrote this:

"who fail to understand that legal immigration will save the countries of Europe from negative population growth. In 20-40 years they will be glad that intrepid peoples from all over the world chose thier country to settle."

A tipical answer from a letf-mind (communist) person. Southamerica is full of populist, communist persons. That is why you will never be capable of make prosperous societies.

Intrepid people??????. Yes........I prefer not to answer this. If they were so intrepid why all of their countries have always been third-world countries??. So, those "intrepid" people that have ruined their country want to teach Europeans how to make a developped country, don´t they??....

I quit. It´s unbelievable how people can manipulate FACTS to suit their interests. "Intrepid people", "they will save Europe from dissapering because our low natality", "A drunk a violent ecuatorian person has been killed by another SOUTHAMERICAN immigrant and someone tries to convince us that Spaniards are violent", and so on...

I don´t think I´m going to reply in this thread again (may be I will do some puntual observations to people that show coherent arguments). Some posters in this thread ssupport their beliefs with fallacies and manipulations.

*Sorry MadridMan to post this kind of threads. Maybe it is not your intention to have this kind of political issues in your messageboard. I won´t post them again.

It's a fallacy that crime is driven by poverty only. It's driven by greed, no matter the social or economic status of the criminal.

Our recent wave of corporate crime in the USA was created by criminals who were very wealthy indeed. In enriching themselves further at the cost of their stockholders and employees they imposed hardships on vastly more persons than any one-on-one pickpocket ever did.

Curiously, the probability that these big-time thieves will be punished for their crimes and forced to make restitution seems inversely proportional to the huge amounts they stole.
Cantabene

ERT - immigration has been going on in the world for thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of years. You need only look at Spain with its waves of different cultures crossing the Straits of Gibraltar and the Pyrenees. They have all contribued to make Spain what it is today, same with the UK with the Romans, Vikings, Normans etc. It has been my experience that immigrants at the end of the day do tend to adopt the habits and customs of the country they've moved to. Which doesn't means to say that they should drop their owns customs or traditions. If you come to the UK for example and need to go to hospital, you may find you have a doctor of Indian or African origin looking after you. Most of these people have been born in the UK, gone to school here and studied here. They are British. It may be the case that the Spanish are not used to seeing immigrants coming into their country but if you give them a chance you may find that they will be a positive thing for Spain.

Booklady - thanks for the kind words .

ERT, don't worry about my education because one thing is for sure and that is that it's better than yours.

Oh yes, James Anglada bouncer from adjacent club hmmm he's got a brown face, that's all I know.

Wilson Pacheco received up to 8 known blows to his body before he drowned, Anglada was responsible for throwing him in the water and not for the attacks before. One blow would have been enough to secure a person's death especially if thrown into into the sea but Pacheco received God knows how many by the other guards.
Of course they went free, i'm not surprised at all. They made a good enough job of finishing him off as much as James Anglada.

Big money was involved in setting them free because the interests of the port side clubs were at stake.

It's common practice in Spain not to let in South Americans, Gitanos and Moros and and and.

Fight back for your life and you'll be tagged a drunken and disorderly less than human person.

Bricamb,

In the History of Spain you will see that the 3 colectives of non-European stock that have emmigrated to Spain have been taken out of Spain because they couldn´t cohabit with Spaniards (Jews and Moors). The other group is the gypsies. They have been in Spain for 500 years yet they have never integrated. The rest of the groups that conform the Spanish colective were European (celts, goths, romans, greeks, suevos), ie, they assimilated perfectly. The Iberians (the other group that conform the Spanish colective is considered the oldest European group -it came from Northafrica but thousands years ago all human groups started in Africa-.).

It is the same for the UK, Romans, Vikings, Normans, etc were of purely European stock and perfectly assimilable. I wonder if the UK would have reacted in the same way if they were invaded in the past by Moors, other africans, asians or others. I´m sure that they would have had problems with them and they would have not assimilated as they didn´t did in Spain either.

So, Europe is not a place made of non-European ethnicities as you are trying to prove (i´m just showing what really happened, not trying to denigrate non-european ethnicities). Asians, Africans, Southamerican amerindians or others have not been immigrants in Europe in other ages. So don´t try to make us believe that it is the same when the Normands emmigrated to the UK than if the Sudanese had emigrated to the UK. It is not the same in terms of assimilation. And History have showed us it. So comparing assimilable ethnicities (European ethnicities) with non-assimilable ethnicities is not a proper way to try to convince people of the good thing that non-assimilable ethnicities will represent for our countries.

Bricamb, could you answer this questions (I would like realistic answers, not utophic theories)?:

1. Why is it that in London, there is a norm that says that in the neighbourhoods were immigrants represent a large number, those are the neighbourhoods that have the higher crimes and delinquency rates?. Why is it that that is a NORM and it is the same in other English cities and also in Spanish or other European cities?. Do you like it?. Do you think that that is a good thing?. Is it good for English society?. Does it mean any kind of assimilation and integration?

2. Were you happy when normal people (not common delinquents but just young average immigrants) from Pakistan or India were hitting young white english people in the streets 2 years ago?. Were you happy when that happened?. Was it an example of assimilation?. Why is it when neighbourhoods were very large immigrant population exist there are always problems between the immigrants and the native population?.

3. Would you be happy when ethnic white English people will be outnumbered by Pakistanis, Indians, or Jamaicans in the English cities?. Why can you hate that much your people to don´t mind that many English cities will be muslim by the end of the XXI century?. Amsterdam will be muslim by 2020. That is why Pim Fortuyn (far-right party) have had lots of votes in Netherlands. People don´t like massive immigration, specially if it is so unasimilable as the muslims in Europe.

If that means assimilation then I don´t know what is non-assimilation.

miche,.....all your replies shows your incoherence and incapacity of taking proper conclussions.

Again:

1.
You wrote:

"ERT, don't worry about my education because one thing is for sure and that is that it's better than yours."

That is again an incoherent argument because you have showed exactly the contrary with this statement in a previous post:

"I hope my bronze and black brothers kick your f****** arses!"

And also I have to post something you said to me in another post:

"If you lack the [censored] to say it in the face"

or something like it...(so don´t try to show your "good" education after you have said that in previous posts, everyone can see it with their eyes, you wrote it in previous posts)

Great education you have...

So if that is been educated, then I don´t want to think what is being educated for you. And then if you want to lie when facts have showed otherwise, that is your problem. So, are you a lier (trying to convince us that you are an educated person when you have showed the contrary) or ar you an uneducated person?. Be coherent and don´t say incoherent statements.

2. I´ve showed you with links news where it is CLEARLY EXPRESSED that James Anglada was the one that threw the ecuatorian man to the sea. And I have showed also in a link that the cause of the death was "ahogamiento". And now...you try to manipulate things and try to convince us (because of course...you saw it with your own eyes and the journalists and the judge didn´t...) that he died because the hitting of the other guards...Ok, if you can do magic that is good for you. Go to the court and tell them that their investigation is wrong and that he died because the other guards hit him...

3. And for this: "Fight back for your life and you'll be tagged a drunken and disorderly less than human person".I don´t think you are the proper person to tell anybody how to manage his life... Are you so arrogant to tell people how to manage their lives?. That says a lot of you.

miche...you have showed your ridicolous statements, incoherences, and manipulations in this thread. miche, don´t bother to reply to me I´m not going to read your reply.

Wolf,

“Are we to gather from your report that nobody had ever been stabbed by a Spaniard in the past? Are we also to believe that absolutely no Spaniards committed a crime during the last several days, or physically harmed anyone?”
Wow! That's kind of tough to swallow, isn't it?

-To answer your question; I'm sure during the last several days SOME Spaniard must have harmed someone, in some way, it would be idiotic not to think that, but as far as killings go, apart from the minors from Ecuador who have killed the Spanish kid, because he asked them what a fight that had taken place the previous day was all about; there has been a Spanish man who has killed his daughter, this having something to do with the fact that he had either gotten separated or divorced from her mum (domestic violence towards women, now THAT is another very interesting and seemingly “popular activity”). And finally, today a couple of gipsy youngsters were killed by others just this morning, the motive? "un ajuste de cuentas' (I really don't know how to translate it), apart from the gypsies, that are traditionally big on these, most foreign mobs operating in Spain, are seemingly “very keen” on performing them, and THAT is a big problem if you ask me.

Actually, I guess this little statistic about what has gone on during the last few days is, to me, quite representative of the general crime scene in our country nowadays. Most murders and violent attacks either do involve immigrants, (like it or not!), mobs or gangs members to be more precise; are related to domestic violence (both Spanish and foreigners alike commit these), OR are related to drugs, or drug dealing (again, both “groups” are likely to take part on these).

Tough to swallow? It may be, but who still believes we live in a fair, or as I call it “la,la,la world”?

“Some people just don't realize the positive impact that immigration ends up having on society.”

-I agree 100% with you on that one Wolf, and it would be SO COOL if the immigration phenomenon could be just a totally “free and natural” thing, but I'm afraid facts show us that there needs to be some control over it, I believe you were the one who asked at the beginning of this thread why Spain didn't deport the immigrants who committed felonies; well, all I'm saying is, that's the kind of thing we'd need to be sorting out.

Fernando,

“Though it is true that Spain has always been a safe country, it is not less true that we have had crime all of the time (as any other country), and that those crimes were committed by Spaniards (a minority of them by gypsies).”
What has happened is that the immigrants who came here to commit crimes have been added to this pool of undesirables.”

-Of course, unfortunately, violence is part of the human condition, and Spanish people were humans last time I checked; however, can you honestly say that your “Spanish ears” don't feel shocked every time that you watch the news and hear about yet another incident involving a GUN weapon?, because that was something pretty much unheard of for me until I turned what, 25? And seriously, do you feel now just as safe, in the streets of Madrid, as you did 10 ago? I wished I did.
In my view, you totally hit the nail on the head when you pointed out that different cultures have a different attitude towards violence; my God! Many Colombian kids in most Colombian cities, AND their teachers for protection, carry guns to class! (guess they hardly ever flunk, uh?)

ERT,

“What I'm trying to explain is that multicultural societies have never worked and it is a fantasy to believe the contrary when factual data have shown otherwise.”

-I feel bad for you ERT, I believe that statement to be wrong, as I sort of expressed before, in my comment to Wolf; but also extremely pessimistic, considering the fact that in time there will probably be ONE big society, and totally multicultural,….and I really hope it works!!!

“….(like those of Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, Honduras,...)….They come from countries where life doesn't mean much for many of them”

-Mmm….I've always feared that sentiment, while I think I can understand where you're coming from when you say that (see my previous last comment to Fernando), I believe that to be a very DANGEROUS thought; I mean, the moment one thinks that others don't appreciate their own lives as much as one does, then it starts to seem much simpler, or like a better idea, to hurt, or even get rid off, those “other people” altogether! Personally, I choose to believe that, although it might not “seem” so, Iraqi, Ethiopian, American, Colombian, Chinese or Spanish mothers' feelings after the deaths of their children are pretty much the same.
It also seems to me that you generalize “big time”. Think of your Brazilian friend, there must be many other immigrants just like her, don't you think?

Miche,

“How many wrongs are done to both legal and illegal immigrants? But these injustices are not in 'El Mundo' who only on the whole choose to report the worst possible facets of immigration.”

-Of course these occasional injustices, like the killing at the Maremagnum in Barcelona, are covered by El Mundo, and every other Spanish newspaper!, Terra's source, EFE news agency, is Spanish; or are you trying to accuse all Spanish journalists of blatant racism?!

“This is obviously how all Spaniards behave to immigrants.”

-Ooops! I guess, you were indeed calling the media AND the rest of this society racists. Don't you think you too are generalizing a little?

Booklady,

“Spain seems to have the lowest murder rates among Southern European countries and that is probably why so many people feel safe there.”

-This sounds to me a little like the saying, I don't know if you're familiar with it, “'mal de muchos, consuelo de tontos'”, meaning, yes, compared to many countries this is still a very safe place to live, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards trying to keep it, at least at it is (violence-wise), and avoid it getting worse, don't you agree?
Somebody, I don't remember whom, made an excellent point, mentioning that there MUST BE a reason behind the remarkable rising of some right-wing-extremist (nazi-sympathizers! ) political parties in Europe in recent years. Scary!

ERT,

Booklady a communist?, that must be a joke, right?

Oye, Paloma,
I believe that you took my comment out of context, it was in reply to what Fernando had said. However, if you are implying I am a tonta (dummy), remember that it takes one to know one! :p Kidding of course!

Yes,it is true that Spain is still a safe place to live, at least my family who live in Asturias and Galicia assure me that Spain is a safe place to live, and after a cursory look at your Interpol crime statistics. All countries try, in varying degrees of success, to keep their nations safe from all types of crime. Including terrorism, which is a heinous crime,and is such a concern to all of us, don't you agree?

Yes, I agree with your statement: "but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work towards trying to keep it, at least at it is (violence-wise)" as long as it is achieved in a democratic manner, as Spain has done, via legislation.

I think that Bricamb has focused on the problem well. For over forty years Spain was not a country that people immigrated. The opposite was true, many spaniards immigrated to Latin American countries, like Cuba, etc. So incoming immigration is a new phenomena in Spain, at least for this last fifty years or so. The ministry of the Interior of Spain has said that What we all can agree is that along with desirable legal immigration you get the undesirable criminal elements that feed on the newcomers and the locals. This phenomena has been well documented here in the United States and in other European countries, that have had a longer history of immigration.

However, the Spanish government will, I am sure, take the necessary steps to protect its people from such elements. I have read several interesting articles about this problem, since I am planning to live in Spain after I retire.

ERT,
Don't take my word for it, take PIMS, I am not a communist. I believe in individualism, individual freedom and liberty, and a free market economy! the opposite of communism!

Booklady,
I'm positive you know it wasn't my intention to imply nobody is 'tonto', the saying I used is a very common one here, I never even noticed the word dummy was in it!

ERT - I accept what you say about some areas of cities with high immigrant populations having higher rates of criminality especially car crime, burglary, muggings etc. In London, it used to be said that Brixton, which has a large Afro-Carribean population, was a no-go area due to the likelyhood of being mugged by (black)youths. However, policing has been stepped up and members of the black community there have been active in trying to steer the young people away from crime. It seems to have worked. Brixton is now, for some, a must visit part of London - it even hosted Madonna's pre tour warm up gig;) What I'm saying is that although as Booklady pointed out you will find criminal elements amongst immigrants out to make a living (think Gangs of New York), overall the effect these immigrants have had is good. For example, the Afro-Carribean population in the UK has influenced our music, food, fashion, literature, youth culture, sports even our ways of partying (Notting Hill Carnaval). And the same could be said for the Indian/Pakistani and Chinese immigrant populations. I hesitate to say immigrants cause many of these groups have been here for years and I cannot think of them as anything other than British. We need immigration. Europe needs immigration. I personally don't think crime is worse now in London - if you read about how dangerous that city was in the 18th and 19th centuries it will make your hair stand on end.

One more thing ERT, you mentioned the fact that the Jews left Spain.In all the Spanish history books I've read it has been stated that they were expelled by the Catholic Kings which is quite different.

I do realise that mass immigration from far off lands was not possible until relatively recently but that does not mean to say that it is inevitably a disaster. The world changes, things move on and hopefully get better. This is the 21st century

I have been reading this thread with great interest for awhile now.

ERT, I hope that you continue to post, because without your posts, this thread will die. You are struggling hard to make others understand your point of view, you have posted many unfortunate links that report on violence caused by immigrants, you have quoted statistics, etc. All very interesting. Although, I find some of your posts directed towards Miche very disturbing and counter productive.

Anyway, I am struggling to try and find out where I belong in society. If I were to live according to what you have stated, I really wouldn´t have a country. You see, my predicament is much like Miche´s... except that I am American, North American, from the USA. Born and bred but probably won´t die there. I am the daughter of an immigrant father and a 3rd generation American mother. I am trying to sort out my confusing past, maybe you can help me decide on where I belong.

Although I am American, I am not Anglo. Or am I? My mother is white. Does that count? No, I don´t think so...my mother´s family emigrated to the USA from Germany and Belgium. I think the Anglo Saxons came primarily from England. The Germans are Germanic and the Belgiums were influenced by the Francos, the Flemish and even, I think, some Germans. Ahhh, but life is good because at least I am European (not like poor Miche who is, por desgracia, ecuadorian and pakistani...no luck for the white blood there). Or am I?

You see, my father emigrated to the USA from the Philippines. He is brown. He was born in the Philippines, so technically that makes him Filipino. I think I am still ok by your book, ERT, because Filipinos are considered Asian. And you don´t seem to have issues with the Chinese here in Spain. Rumor has it, in fact that somewhere in my father´s bloodlines there are influences from China and Japan. However, one side of his family comes from Spanish stock. So, does that change the situation? In fact, my surname is Spanish. (another score for the European strain!) He didn´t emigrate to Spain, rather the Spaniards came to the Philippines, sort of took it over, made it Catholic and integrated with the locals for awhile. Should the Filipinos have kicked them out at the time? I´m glad they didn´t or else I wouldn´t exist today. Eventually, my father emigrated to the USA because he was recruited by the US Navy. Not because he was a buscavida like many of the Europeans who "founded America" to escape their oppressive countries.

At least, being born in multicultural America, with its roots founded by immigrants, I felt like I had a country to call my own. However, as luck would have it, I happened to meet and fall in love with a Spaniard. (Fortunately not one who is big on spousal abuse. With the amount of press spousal abuse gets here in Spain, I would begin to believe that one out of every three Spanish husbands beat his wife Maybe I should post some of the articles so that others can read them, I am sure that they would agree that one out of every three Spanish males are violent and abusive.) I digress.

I met, fell in love with, and married a Spaniard. However, what a predicament that caused. I mean afterall, ONE of us would have to be an immigrant in order for the marriage to work. Or perhaps, because it´s a multicultural marriage, it´s doomed to fail¿?. I hope not, we just celebrated two years of a happy marriage, and I count on celebrating many more. In the end, I decided to be the one to relocate to Spain. Afterall, looking at my family history, it´s clear that there were a bunch of culo-inquietos in my family. My husband (from pure Spanish blood...whatever "pure" means) and his family have lived in Spain for generations. Maybe since the world began.

Oops no, when the world began, Spain did not exist. As a matter of fact, Spain didn´t exist when the Jews and the Moors lived here either. At that time, if I recall my Spanish history correctly, Spain was really two separate Kingdoms that of Castille and that of Aragon. It wasn´t until Isabell and Ferdinand got married that Spain was unified and the Catholic royalty was successful in expelling (eradicating) the Moors and Jews. (By the way, when they married, was immigration involved like in my case? I´m not considering myself royalty or anything... just curious as to how it worked back then)

I digress. What I am trying to find out, ERT, (are you still with me or have I bored you with my immigrant multicultural ways?) is where I belong. I mean, I certainly don´t want to live in a society (Spain) that doesn´t want immigrants. I am an immigrant. I am the daughter of immigrants, who in turn were the sons/daugthers of immigrants (egads, they were immigrants from Europe, from SPAIN!). All I want is to live in a society that will accept me for who I am, not what race, ethnicity, culture or country that I come from. Before anything else, I am a person, not a statistic. I want to be treated as a person. Not a number.

I am proud to be American... don´t consider myself anything else, however, I believe that I am part of a larger society, that of the world. Given such, I consider myself to be a citizen of the world with the right to live in any part of the world that I choose to. Heck afterall, it´s what all my ancestors did!

Pim and ERT,

Did you like the statement I made about Spaniards?? NO??

Well, how does it feel? How does is it feel to be misrepresented by 'occasional injustices' (your words Pim)? I don't like it, and as you both have illustrated, you don't like it when I turned the table.

So let's not generalise. I hope that's clear now.

I've gone out of my way to show that my views of Spain are not at all tainted by this thread or any other incident I may hear of or be told of.
If you've failed to see that then ....???

When I said 'Fight back for your life and you'll be tagged a drunken....'
I'm saying that like in the case of the Ecuadorian who had to fight back to protect himself is then 'tagged' a drunken person there to make trouble and so deserved what he got.

As for the media comments I made, yes it is funny how it is that an Ecuadorian or any immigrant is put under the magnifying glass if they've been in a fight and suffers an injury. Like ERT has said, he/she couldn't find any such reports about Spaniards in similar circumstances.
The world according to ERT is that a Spaniard never -gets drunk, has a fight, has ever raped and/or beaten anyone and this is because it is not reported in the newspapers, is this true? Bizarre to me.

I fully stand by my comments to you ERT, why are you so surprised you get a bad reception from immigrant waiters when you go into a bar or restaurant,.. it's YOU, your very existence and manner that evokes disgust.

Education? hahaha.
You insult yourself, your country, Spanish history and the majority of the world's population with your 'education'.

ERT, 'te faltas un punto o que'? Quote me on that insult in a previous post to you if you wish.
And carry on having conversations with yourself because you ignore those who have kindly taken the time to try and see your point of view and understand your opinions.

I'm wondering what ERT means? ERT EXTREMIST RACIST TERRESTIAL?

Ohhh am I being flippant?? I'd rather MM ban me, so get used to it.

This thread has inspired me. After following and reading many of the links that have been posted, I thought that I would also post one that I found to be extremely interesting.

I would like to know everyone´s opinions about it, because mine are a bit mixed. On the one hand, I think it´s a good thing, however on the other hand, laws, as ERT has subliminally suggested, are made for a reason and shouldn´t be broken, especially not to advance the cause of immigrants (in ERT´s opinion).

I was reading Time Magazine, the European edition, this week, and found that this week´s issue is the special European Heroes issue. I was pleased to see the face of a Spaniard included. Here is the article, please read, reflect and then post your thoughts...

Spanish Hero

The most interesting thing that I find about this article is that the person breaking the law is a Spaniard. A Catholic. A European. And to top it off, the police turn a blind eye, and even help him in his efforts! Amazing!

What kind of legal action should we take against these individuals who are breaking the law and further fostering the rate of illegal immigrant crime in this otherwise pristine and crime free country?

Here is an intersting article that challenges the "Dutch Tolerance". Is it that their tolerance level is changing, or is it that they were never tolerant, but rather an interested party?

Shameful Secrets

However, good news abounds as we see that elite French Business leaders are getting into the act of fighting xenophobia and racism:

Claude Bébéar

A word of caution, however, journalists, while not overtly racist as questioned by PIM, work for institutions who earn their money through ratings and advertising. No ratings no advertising, no advertising no money. What makes ratings? The "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality. Whenever violent crime, or crime that is "out of the ordinary" is committed, it is often exploited by the newscasts to get more viewers/subscribers, to up the ratings and increase the advertising income. Trust me, I worked in television and I have worked with honest and ethical journalists who often find themselves in this quandry.

Anyway, just some information to think about...

Chica,
Thank you for sharing the story on Time , I needed something uplifting today! Brother Isidoro Macías is certainly an admirable individual. I will find out the address of his parish in Algeciras, and send him money for his mission.

The other articles were excellent as well! I must get the books. I had heard, from a lecture I heard in Bonaire, Netherland Antilles, from Christian writer Corrie Ten Boom, author of the Hiding Place, that not all the Dutch were helping the Jews, some collaborated with the Germans.

Excellent reporting, Chica, gracías!

hello everybody

miche

i think you and SOME others have been unfair at ert.

let me explain in my opinion
ert is just stateing facts about the immigrant situation in spain.

as he said immigration doesnt create utopia.

i personally dont want spain the country of most of blood,to become like the usa,without an identity and such.
thats what you seem to want

i dont

comon hes just being realistic
the only [censored] thing he said wrong is calling booklady a communist cause shes cuban.

MY HUMBLE OPINION

Maybe this thread is useful after all, any way we can see a country's attitude to such matters will always be useful and those sites Chica, Booklady and others so kindly posted illustrate this brilliantly. Thanks.
In particular the 'Spanish Hero' article reminds us of the most basic and essential qualities we are all capable of (compassion and respect for all humans), and often forget because we don't have to suffer the same misfortunes-
I'll be following and finding out more about this man brother Isidoro Macias and his work.

Fmiketheman, you said this,
Gulp.
Well thanks for letting me know what and how you 'think'.

hello everybody

miche

what im trying to say is you and ert have bull****ted this subject.

this is what and how i think about this stupid non-spanish non-security related topic.

this message board used to be so nice until certain people messed it up to a phenomenal degree.

again this is what and how i think!

sincerely
mad and annoyed
michael

Hello Everyone,

I was truly uplifted by the wonderful article that Chica shared with us of the work of Padre Pateras, or Hermano Isidoro Macías, that I set out to find the address of the albergue in Algeciras to make a donation.

If anyone else is interested here are the addresses in Algeciras:
ALBERGUE CRUZ BLANCA
Paseo Victoria Eugenia, 20
11207. ALGECIRAS (Cádiz)
Tlf.: 956 - 60 36 06
and,
CASA FAMILIAR VIRGEN DE LA PALMA
Pº de la Conferencia, 7-
11207 ALGECIRAS (Cádiz) -
Tlf. (956) 60 34 90
Fax: (956) 60 20 77

Mmmmm....I guess this gives me the perfect opportunity, to "say" one of my favourite phrases in the English language, specially, since there is not an Spanish equivalent to it (at least that I can think of):

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

C'mmon people, let's try not to get so 'visceral', and base our opinions on FACTS.

Nice one Booklady, they have my support/what little I can offer.

Have a nice week everyone.

Except, of course, that it happened the other way around. The Christians, Jews and Muslims cohabited just fine in the Muslim-controlled areas of Spain up till sometime in the 15th century. However, the Catholic theocracy of Castile couldn't bear the idea that anyone might believe differently than they did, so they instituted a program of religious and ethnic oppression so draconian that it's amazing George Bush's ancestors didn't invade the Iberian Peninsula.

It is not wise to judge facts 5 centuries ago with current perspectives. Under XXIth century point of view it is obviously horrible that ethnic/religious prosecution.

In every 15th century iberian kingdom (Portugal, Castile, Navarre, Aragon and Granada) cohabitation between these different religions/ethnias/cultures was a fact, and a very prosperous one. Mozarabs (those citizens with moslem religion) were very able working the land, jews (a large minority) had comerces and financed the kings' projects, and christians formed the working muscle. They were all spaniards.

But Queen Isabel (from Castile) and King Fernando (from Aragon) faced a new scenary in 1492: they anexionated Navarre, conquered Granada, and wanted to merge Castile and Aragon into a new country. They forced jews and mozarabs to quit Spain as a way to achieve religious unity. Spain lost skillfull handwork, gaining political and religious unity.

Just my thoughts...

Fernando

Wow... This thread has drifted far from its "Safety and Security Issues" roots. We've had accusations of communism, we've had Mike calling anyone who disagrees with him a "[censored]" (nice spelling, dude), and a side trip into the history of Iberian multiculturalism.

I hate to prolong the off-topic detour, but here's my one-shot reply to some of the issues raised on that last subject:

Fernando wrote:

True, but you're working from the assumption that all that counts is the perspectives of Spain's 15th-century Catholics. What evidence survives suggests that many (most?) of Spain's 15th-century non-Christians viewed Ferdinand and Isabella's campaign as we might today: as something violent and evil. IIRC, there's also evidence that a sizable minority of Spanish Christians at the time opposed the Inquisition, at least privately, and believed it was at odds with Jesus' teachings.

Your point, as I understand it, is that Ferdinand and Isabella had good intentions and believed they were doing the right thing. You are surely correct about that. However, the same can be said of some of history's greatest despots. Hitler was trying to establish prosperity, cultural and religious unity, and a sense of national identity in his time and place. Because it happened before I was born, should I refrain from judging him and saying he was wrong?

In any case, judging the Reyes Católicos wasn't my point. I was just trying to correct a factual error that ERT had posted. He implied that the Jews and Muslims were kicked out of Spain in 1492 because they could not blend into Iberian society and get along with people from other cultures. In fact, the Jews and Muslims generally got along fine with the Christians, and it was the Catholic theocracy that refused to blend into the existing (and very succcessful) multicultural society, and who decided to kick out everyone else.

If there's one thing we can gain from this thread, it's that we have all agreed to disagree on the subject. But I too wonder what 15th century political/religious implications really have to do with today's question about immigration? It seems like we would all learn from our history, but not use it as a focal point to discuss today's situation.

Brother Macias work, on behalf of illegal immigrants points out the fact that there are those who care about others, and just the fact that the city does contribute to the well-being of these people, even though it seems like a pittance offered, does indicate that there are Spaniards who understand the plight of these people. Whether or not it's wide spread support throughout Spain or not, doesn't matter. The fact remains, there are those who care.

With immigration comes a lot of burdens. One of them, without doubt, is the fact that amongst the people seeking refuge in another country, are those who leave a criminal past behind in the country they came from. The U.S. not only has lived with this problem, we've suffered from it. But, at the same time, since it goes with the territory, how do you avoid this situation? By not allowing people to immigrate?

I go back to something I said earlier. It would probably be in the best interest of Spain, or any other nation, that allows immigration, to deport those who break the law. There has to be a level of crime that would be unacceptable. I believe, being found guilty of any "crime against person," such as a conviction for pick-pocketing on up, could be considered acceptable reason for deportation. If they are also illegal, I don't understand why any nation should accept this behavior.

As far as those being helped by Brother Macias, I'd think they were less likely to embark on a wave of crime than those who have by-passed places like his. I might be wrong in this matter, but since there's no evidence to show a link between those he helps and crime, I am only assuming the best.

Based on what I've seen, and heard, in this thread, and in resource information, there are more restrictions placed on those who would not illegally enter Spain to live an honest life, than there are those who would illegally enter. Is it possible that the restrictions are too high for honest people, and too low for those who aren't?

Wolf

Hey just wanted to put in what my experience of pick pocketing has been. When my parents were over, my mother caught some one pickpocketing her. Who was it? A gypsy, a moroccan..... no an older Spanish male, with what appeared to be his wife/ partner whatever. Luckily he was caught in the act and was so surprised by being given a slap by my mum that he dropped the wallet (which essentially contained nothing anyway) and scarpered. The rise in criminality is due to a great many factors. It is something that is being dealt with in a great many countries, and cannot be put down just to increases in illegal immigrants. what about increasing levels of juvenile delinquincy, drug taking,alcohol abuse?
Or are these problems only associated with immigrants as well?

Ok, Ok, I apologize. Perhaps my sarcastic first post to this thread was uncalled for, but like Booklady and Miche, certain issues are near and dear to my heart. And when I get irked, occasionally, I will have a knee jerk reaction.

One thing is for certain, to use a Spanish phrase, "en todas partes cuecen habas".... essentially, things are the same everywhere (or everywhere has it´s share of problems). Yes, crime has increased as the illegal immigration has increased here in Spain, but so has housing. Does that mean we should attribute the rise in the cost of housing here in Spain to illegal immigration? Afterall, people are rushing to get out of immigrant filled neighborhoods and where the land developers see a hungry market...

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that statistics can be a very dangerous tool that can be manipulated to suit anyone´s needs. Judging an entire race or group of people based on yesterday´s headlines is a very dangerous thing to do, as I tried to allude to in my tongue-in-cheek comment about spousal abuse here in Spain.

Miketheman states:
Mike, I hate to disagree with you here buddy but, the only facts that I saw were the ones stated in the interpol link that Booklady provided. ERT is stating his opinion based on newspaper headlines.

However, I do agree that in order to discuss this topic inteligently, we should just stick to the facts and try not to let our emotions get in the way (although I have to admit, that´s really hard for me! :p ).

Chica,

You have nothing to apologize for. If anyone was offended, because you offered researched information, that's their own problem, not yours. Even when you and I have disagreed, I've always felt your stance was well founded on the information you offered, not on inuendo, or headlines in a newspaper. On more than one occasion, I've found reason to find better understanding because of your posts.

Personally, I find your posts interesting, poignant, and well worth reading, even when we don't see eye-to-eye. You're entitled to your convictions just like anyone else. Keep 'em coming.

Wolf

Chica,

Like Wolf said, you certainly have no need to apologize to us. Actually your posts certainly changed the tenor of the thread, to me it did.
I was uplifted by the Father Macías story.

However, I do owe someone an apology. Paloma, I do want to apologize to you, you did not deserve my little snide comment. I hope you will forgive me. I misunderstood your comment.

There are threads that are very sensitive to many of us. We know that the ETA topic always brings disharmony and discontent among us. I stopped asking questions about ETA when I read the agnst in some of the member's posts, and realized that for the sake of group harmony and mutual respect it was best not to enter into these discussions. I was not the only one, since there has been an absence of these in the past few months.

Likewise, the immigrants posts are very hurtful, there have been three of these types of posts. Not because of the ideas behind immigration,I think that those are as viable a topic as any other. What is hurtful is the way that immigrants are represented in some of the posts, in a very negative way. That is hurtful, and of course, some of us will respond.

Perhaps the only way that we can, as Pim suggests, "get along" is to decide what is more important continue posting hurtful posts, or build our friendships. I prefer to build our friendships.

Guess what! It's time to quit this topic. It's going downhill FAST with all this name-calling, flaming, and other things we don't allow 'round these parts. We've all stretched the boundries of the message board and it's about to snap.

Saludos, MadridMan

P.S. I read a posting on a travel message board that MadridMan's ALL SPAIN Message Board has lots of good information BUT also has a patronizing tone about it. WHO NEEDS that kind of reputation? Yes, we're here to discuss things but let's keep our heads. ¿Vale?

The title of the thread itself is patronizing, the opening of the thread is patronizing, ERT has set out to be patronizing not only in this thread but in the Vanity Fair thread and Hostel Playa, 'all South Americans are rude'. I'm wondering,...and it seems to me that it's not the nature of these threads that bothers you MadridMan but the defensive responses from myself and people like myself.

I don't wish to apologise.

I suppose my question is this, why stop this thread now when many people have given their valid arguments to show the problem with such a statement as 'Almost all the pickpockets and...'?.
Why have you waited for s... to hit the fan? Or did you not count on any Ecuadorian participants coming on this board?

I understand things a lot clearer now, about Spain and I have to thank ERT for that, I understand more about this board and the participants better now. Por lo bueno y por lo malo.
I've made a few good friends in the time I have joined this board- I can't ask or expect for more, since this board could represent a microcosm of society itself, racists, non racist, tthose who have been assaulted by Spaniards and those by non Spaniards.

Though I disagree with many of you, and that's ok, I would still go so far as to say this board represents a fair balance of people in society. But it is fmiketheman's post which I would say represents the board as a 'whole' and believes this board should represent the utopia Spain- ignoring all it's problems.

My apology would be to Taravb with regards to the gypsy thread, I didn't have much sympathy for Taravb or the Gypsies but now as a result of that discussion have started to read up about them and feel the richer for it.

Michelle.

miche wrote: I value discussion on all topics even if they're a bit controversial. It's when discussion turns to fighting and name-calling that gets my sheep.. umm... I mean 'goat'. I don't single you, miche, out at all and, in fact, I now only skim the postings in this and the "This Damn War" thread in order to get a "feel" for its "life" because, at least for me, they don't fit my personality to debate such topics. I'm one of those people who never go to demonstrations either.

But you're right miche, this thread had a bad start and it only got worse. Time to quit and go on to other things.

Saludos, MadridMan