terrorism

We have been able to vacation in Spain annually over the last few years & it seems so far this summer that the terrorist activities, including killings and bombings are worse than ever. Luckily so far no tourists have been injured.
But just last week there were fatal bombings in Madrid & Navarra, and an off duty policeman riddled with bullets in the Pais Vasco.
What will it take to stop these barbaric acts? The forces of law & order seem to be overwhelmed. Do the Spanish contributers to this board see any hope for the immediate future?

It's been on for about 40 years or more. I sincerely believe that it will not end till it is given to the people of the Basque Country their right to decide their future. No people is to suffer being a colony of another country/the rest of the country if the want to leave.

Remember that this was the reason for your Civil War? A different position on the rights of black people made the southern want to leave the Union. They had the right, acknowledged by your own laws, but they were not allowed to use it.

I don't believe that the Basque Country would vote for separation, but it could be, and anyway, it is their right to decide. The historic position of all the spanish governments has been not even considering it, due to the way their voters think. Towards splitting the country, they speak in a way very similar to Serbians in Jugoslavia.

[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

So Ignacio, you blame the government, and thus the spaniards of the terrorism ETA commits?

The blame of the killings, bombings and lack of freedom is not on the government, is on the terrorist band itself!!!! Saying the opposite is to twist the situation.

I agree that the Basque Country should be allowed to decide their own future. I would like it to be with the rest of Spain, but also think that the people should be given the chance to decide its own future.

You have said that the Basque Country is a colony. I would say that most Spain is a colony of the Basque Country instead. That is to deform the reality. The Basque Country has been a part of Spain for centuries, now some of the basques, tend to say such this things: spaniards are colonialists, we have been invaded, etc I have lived my whole life in Madrid, what the heck have I invaded? Could you tell me? When has the spanish government ordered the Army to invade the Basque Country?

Another deformation of reality, you name Spain for being a country different of the Basque Country. That's your point of view. Mine is that Spain without the Basque Country is not Spain, is other thing, but not Spain, since I consider the Basque Country a constitutive part of Spain, not a property of Spain.

"The historic position of all the spanish governments has been not even considering it, due to the way their voters think."

Interesting statement but, would you say the truth or your truth? The historic position of all the governments of the democracy has been the same: To respect what the constitution, voted also by the basques, says about this matter: the unity of Spain is inviolable. Now, we can discuss if the constitution could be change to permit a separation of any part of Spain, but you can't say that the historic position of Spain is not to consider such path.

"Towards splitting the country, they speak in a way very similar to Serbians in Jugoslavia."

This is just the pinnacle of the deformation of the situation. Why don't you call us something better? As nazis and fascists. I will give your statement more emphasis in the eyes of forgeiners. The serbians have commited a ethnic cleaning killing two hundred thousands of people. How many basques has the government killed? Or will you blame Spain for having terrorists and assasins in their jails?

I have read your post and I have to say that am a bit offended by it. Don't deform the reality, show your point of view, but don't try to make the situation seem different of how it is.

There are basques leaving the Basque Country because they are being prosecuted by the followers of ETA. They menace them, they put fire bombs (molotov cocktails) in their homes, they draw menacing graffitis all around their towns, as if their were jews in the nazi's Germany.

They have blasted councilmans, policemen, guardias civiles, soldiers, civils (included children), they have leaved public employees with both its legs amputated, and people with a shell alocated in the brain (of which I know of two), they have left families destroyed, without parents, sons or partners and you try to make it seem as if the blame was for the government for not allowing the Basque Country be independent? My God!!!!!!

ETA is worse than the Mafia, it is a terrorist band which prosecute making money, there are not ulterior reason for them to operate. Tell the truth: The Basque Contry has the more level of autogovernment of Europe, more than german landers, more than Northern Ireland, and certainly more than most states of the United States. The Basque Country, has a government, has a parlament, has the health, the security, the education, the finances, and many more things transferred from the central government, so don't make it seem as if they are pressed by a tyranical country because they are not.

As in all the democratic countries, our government never will give the self determination right to the Basque Country with murdered people on the table...

Another decision would be a terrible insult for ETA victims.

The violence is the way to nothing. Violence make more violence and it is incredible to suffer this kind of violence in the XXI century.

Another discussion is if the independentist(only 22% of the basque population) are right, a lot of people is brain contaminated with a deformation of the reality thanks to the basque education system.

As I said in the General Chatter forum about this same topic, this is also my second and last message in this thread on this matter, so you will have to forgive me if I don't answer any more replies, but I simply do not dare to risk myself to express any more opinions in this matter. Probably I will be being investigated by now because of not saying ETA is the devil/a group of pigs/mafia, ..., et al.

Fernando: I did not say the Basque Country was a colony of Spain but "being a colony of another country/the rest of the country".

Do you think Bolivia would join the USA if invited to? Yes, they would, because this would be good for them. Why some basque people wants to separate? Because the region has being badly treated in the past and it still is.

The spanish government doesn't need to tell the army to invade th BC, since they are in control of it (there are divisions and brigades of the army in it, the spanish army).

If you speak to a non-basque non-catalonian person, they will tell you they will never allow separation to take place.

The Constitution was rejected in the BC, for most nationalist parties asked for abstention, and some for No, abstention was more than 50%, and there were many NOes.

In every negotiation between government and nationalists, for peace in the BC, Gonzalez, Aznar (and Zapatero says the same) have rejected talking about separation.

I would not call you nazis or fascists, because you do not follow their ideas (however you do to people who think another way), but towars this very matter there is a 'This is out of possible negotiation attitude' in the people of most of the areas in Spain.

According to law, I can not say there is a lot of basque people killed by the government, but, can I remind you of the Segundo Marey (french basque citicen) who was kidnapped by GAL, following orders from the government (Barrionuevo minister and some others in jail - so called jail). This is the one that they have been found guilty of, but there are many killings that the GAL did, whose last responsibles have never been found (by courts).

By the way it is a shame that being found guilty form state killings (and we dare to tell the Chilenos how to behave), they are free, because of legal tricks. Do you think it is fair?

There was that unexplained episode with 'supposed' tortures and killing in that police building in Vitoria (Intxaurrondo, I think), there are several cases where it has been said of terrorists being killed even if surrendering, there are the three persons Guardia Civil (police) killed in Andalucia, because they thought they were from ETA, ...

The serbians did not commit crimes until there was an effective separation.

I am offended by what you say too, but I have to suffer from not being able to express myself freely, neither in this forum nor in the streets.

About the killings, amutations, and so on, look for any revolution/independence movement (but for Ghandi's) where there were less than here.

It is true that they/us have more competences than some other regions, but I bet my soul that it is much lower than the US states. However, it is a fictitious power, because every Comunidad Autonoma in Spain has most of that, and the main point, which is economy, has to be negotiated yearly with the Government (to decide how much money they take from us), this is specially serious in Catalonia, because, it being a richer region, has to pay a lot of the Spanish budget for other regions to benefit. This year they are claimng (peacefully by now), as all the rest of the years, that they want 400.000.000.000 of the extra pesetas they pay, back

Replay: "As in all the democratic countries, our government never will give the self determination right to the Basque Country with murdered people on the table..."

There was an unilateral truce by ETA for a year, and the spanish government did not want to negotiate anything on politics, no matter what the nationalist parties encouraged it to do so.

I agree that "The violence is the way to nothing", but which is the way then, waiting another 20 years, or 20 more, ..., after all, 1.000.000 basque voters can not decide in the spanish parliament the inedpendence against 19.000.000 voters of the rest of Spain.

As for the independentists, I can't figure where did you obtain that percentage,but in all the elections, ad this last one even more, there in more that a 50% of nationalist vote in the BC, sometimes a 60 or 65%.

You should speak to the south american person, to know what they think about the History we are taught in Spain. Every educative system follows the (local in this case) government in the power. Points of view are always different for the same facts.

By the way, do you speak basque? So, how can you tell? I do. And I have read magazines denouncing what you say, and the translation was not exact (I suppose on purpose - political manipulation!) And the very few things that were really 'truth contamining' were listed as 'Page 25 number 134' of such basque magazine.

How can you blame an educative system basing yourself on scattered words that the (spanish) media want to focus on?

And there is always the point of view. Why some people think that saying a person that his country is Spain but his nation is the Basque Country is wrong?
It depends on the point of view, again.

But some people do not respect other people's point of view

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

>But some people do not respect other people's point of view

Yes, you are right, ETA don´t respect to anyone who is agaisnt them, but they only use the violence and constant menace to all the basque people who wants to be spanish like now (majority), only in Guipuzcoa independentist are the same as non independentist (if we include San Sebastian).

There is no discussion, GAL was a mistake, but you can not compare the terrific ETA history with some government errors. I have basque independentist friends and they are TOTALLY agaisnt ETA. And nobody is investigating them or forbidding the expression of theirs ideas, so don´t write stupidities.

I hope all the foreign readers can have enough intelligence to find by themselves the truth, ETA is a group of killers, the Basque Country situation can not be compared with North Ireland or Serbia...there are not two bands in this "war", ETA is killing us and we are suffering them without using the violence.

And one thing Ignacio: nationalist is not the same as independentist.

By the way, it is demonstrated that during the ETA truce, they got arms, munition, bombs and maked a new structure. So no comment.

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: replay ]

Hi all.

Ignacio you made me really sick. Can you sleep with your own conscience? Oh and please, don't post the typical sentence of "Now you see how the freedom of expression is denied in Spain".

"...this is also my second and last message in this thread on this matter, so you will have to forgive me if I don't answer any more replies, but I simply do not dare to risk myself to express any more opinions in this matter. Probably I will be being investigated by now because of not saying ETA is the devil/a group of pigs/mafia, ..., et al."

Of course you can permit yourself to say this because you know you are not in danger. Shut up liar! No single citizen has been jailed for not condemn ETA crimes! It is very valiant to say you are menaced when you know you are safe an secure. Or have you had any problems in Madrid for being basque? (if you say yes I will tell that I have 3 basque friends living in Madrid which of course don't have any problem, in the opposite, they are very well treated).


Also, with which intention have you hidden your origins? You are from Bilbao, not from Madrid, so don't try to make it seem that anyone in Madrid could support what you say.

The Basque Country bad treated? Do you refer to the 3.000.000.000.000 ptas it cost to build the Bilbao's port? The highways maybe? The bunch of rates that the basque government get by themselves? Or what? Come on, try to scatter the dude on the eyes of forgeiners. You are implicitly justifying ETA's terrorism, so don't make up and speak clear.

"The spanish government doesn't need to tell the army to invade th BC, since they are in control of it (there are divisions and brigades of the army in it, the spanish army)."

Yes, for sure. You make it seem as if the 90% of the army is by now occupying the Basque Country. So, would you want that the army would left a part of the country's territory undefended?

I will recall that the region of Madrid has a great amount of militars and soldiers, by your words, are we invaded or conquered? Manipulator...

"If you speak to a non-basque non-catalonian person, they will tell you they will never allow separation to take place."

So you are afraid that a common citizen has the power to decide if Catalonia or the Basque Country should be independent or no, is it correct? I'm from Madrid, so I'm not catalonian neither basque, and I will allow them to separete from the rest of the Spain if the majority of the basque of catalonian population wanted to. Don't speak for me liar!

"The Constitution was rejected in the BC, for most nationalist parties asked for abstention, and some for No, abstention was more than 50%, and there were many NOes."

Manipulation again, you say that there was a 50% of abstention, and the other 50% were "yes" or "no", but you assure us that it was rejected? Liar is what you are. The constitution was aproved with the support of the whole majority of the spanish population, with the colaboration of basque, and catalonian nationalists (which helped to write the text and the articles) and with the implicit allowance of the majority of the basques!

"In every negotiation between government and nationalists, for peace in the BC, Gonzalez, Aznar (and Zapatero says the same) have rejected talking about separation."

Yesterday president Aznar sayed that he won't mind to talk about separation, but that the focus should be in finish ETA. Liar!

"I would not call you nazis or fascists, because you do not follow their ideas (however you do to people who think another way), but towars this very matter there is a 'This is out of possible negotiation attitude' in the people of most of the areas in Spain."

Now you accuse me of calling someone fascist, where the hell have I called someone who thinks different of me a fascist?

You know what? The only possible negotiation with ETA is when and where they leave the arms. That is a different negotiation of the one with nationalist and separatist parties about the status of the Basque Country.

"According to law, I can not say there is a lot of basque people killed by the government"

My God!!!!!! Which penalty code do you think are you ruled by? A taliban one? You appeal to the law of "apology of terrorism" which says that publicly supporting or enhancing of terrorism is punished, not that yoy can say the lies what you like.

"...but, can I remind you of the Segundo Marey (french basque citicen) who was kidnapped by GAL, following orders from the government (Barrionuevo minister and some others in jail - so called jail)."

So? A corrupt minister commits a crime, he is judged, found guilty and jailed. That gives you the moral right to say that spanish government is killing basque people? This foolness appears to not have limits...

However, on the matter of GAL (an obscure terrorist group which was probably founded and financed by the socialist government) I will say that it is worse than ETA, because it was institutional terrorism, no matter that they were supposed to kill ETA terrorists, terrorists should never be judged without a court. Thay have to be courted and, if found guilty, jailed.

"By the way it is a shame that being found guilty form state killings (and we dare to tell the Chilenos how to behave), they are free, because of legal tricks. Do you think it is fair?"

We dare to tell the chilenos how to behave? Don't deform reality. A judge had legal competence over the assasination of spanish citizens by the dictatorship ruled by Pinochet and he was found suspicious of being involved. And about the freedom of those GAL terrorists I think is not fair. They should be in jail upon the completion of they whole penalty.

"There was that unexplained episode with 'supposed' tortures and killing in that police building in Vitoria (Intxaurrondo, I think), there are several cases where it has been said of terrorists being killed even if surrendering, there are the three persons Guardia Civil (police) killed in Andalucia, because they thought they were from ETA, ..."

So? This policemen where from GAL terrorist group. They are now in jail. You implicitly justify ETA terrorism with this other terrorist activities? If I were you I will not sleep well with my conscience.

"The serbians did not commit crimes until there was an effective separation."

And? The people who is death doesn't care much when do the crimes started, I can assure you.

"I am offended by what you say too, but I have to suffer from not being able to express myself freely, neither in this forum nor in the streets."

Oh, what a pity. For sure you are able to express freely!!!!! Aren't you doing by now? Who the hell has prohibited you to talk?! LIAR!

"About the killings, amutations, and so on, look for any revolution/independence movement (but for Ghandi's) where there were less than here."

Yes, I know in your eyes the "so on" are just collateral damage and a necesity to reach a great final. So the killings are acceptable to you as long as they keep lower than in other independist movement? NASTY, THIS MAKES ME SICK.

Don't lie, a Comunidad Autonoma in Spain has the majority of the power over that region. The Basque Country has its police, collects its taxes, sets its educational policy without any intervention, the healthy programs, etc etc etc. LIAR

Yes, as one of the richest regions of Spain, the Basque Country gives away more money that it percieve. But is the same situation as Madrid. We are one of the richest regions, so it is normal we give more than we get. Don't be single minded, the Basque Country got tons of money when it was economicly depressed..., oh, you forgot to mention that little detail, true?

"There was an unilateral truce by ETA for a year, and the spanish government did not want to negotiate anything on politics, no matter what the nationalist parties encouraged it to do so."

What a great truce with a good faith purpose: rearm themselves. By then ETA had lost the 60% of their commandos by police actions, who dismanteled the three main commandos and jailed some of the most important leaders of the band. Also, their finance apparatus was dismanteled, they were pressed by France and the basque public opinion was on them for kidnapping and executing a councilman of Ermua. Very convinient to declase a truce. To show their good faith, however, they rearm themselvers during the "truce". Some unimportant details you just forgot...

"I agree that "The violence is the way to nothing", but which is the way then, waiting another 20 years, or 20 more, ..., after all, 1.000.000 basque voters can not decide in the spanish parliament the inedpendence against 19.000.000 voters of the rest of Spain."

Then you disagree with pacific ways. Democracy is the art to tolerate situations you don't want. Is the majority of the Basque Country doesn't want to be a separate country, why do you want to impose it?

Yes, there are a 50% nationalist vote, which is not independist. The nationalism ranges from feel that you are basque and spanish to radical independentism. Only 20% of the people want independentism, see the polls of the nationalist government liar!

I'm tired of you and your lies and foolnesses, so I will not answer the rest of you post. Just to say: don't ask for respect when you are so intolerant that you implicitly justify the killing that a terrorist and criminal band (NEVER a separatist basque group, it is not separatist, it can't be called basque since it doesn't represent basques, and it is definitly not a group, but an organized band) does.

Now you may live your fantasy of the watching the government makes to you and the repercusions it may have to you personally.

Hopefully I didn't gave any personal information in the registering, so don't loose time trying to get it.

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: Fernando ]

[on 07-28-2001 09:20 AM, an esteemed message board member wrote...]

You people can argue details, thursday morning my friend and I passed in front of a bomb 30 seconds before it went off, in Barcelona. We were very lucky and were not injured.
This was not set by ETA and it was pretty small, however, in any form it´s wrong to kill people.

Apparently then, no one expects an end to terrorism in Spain in the near future. Obviously an organization which shoots innocent citizens in the back and generates a climate of fear among the populace can never expect to win the votes of the majority in free democratic elections.
Last week there were 23 terrorist acts committed in the Pais Vasco area of Spain within a three day period. In one case a family of five narrowly missed being caught in a car bomb explosion. The newspaper El Pais reported also that eight masked terrorists attacked a provincial police (Ertzaintza) vehicle with molotov cocktails.

No arrests were made!! Hmmm???

FYI: Those incidents (now eight days in a row since the death of the etarra in Alicante) in Euskadi by "masked terrorists" are being perpetrated by participants in "kale borroka" or street violence. They are not etarras (although I'm sure they'd like to be). This sort of thing is mostly done by hooligans who like to destroy property for the sake of destruction. I'm sure that in the real world of terrorism, they'd whimper like a baby under interrogation.

Lest I be misunderstood yet again, I do not condone this sort of activity any more than I condone murders and car bombs. This sort of activity is just as pointless and self-defeating to whatever cause a group may have.

... Imagine all the people living life in peace... you may say I´m a dreamer, but I´m not the only one...

Mmmm Cali. Those "hooligans" fill the ranks of ETA whenever they can.

Moreover, they are a very important key in ETA strategy. They want to fill of terror and violence the normal functioning of the society.

They normally only attack physical places (banks, multinationals, political parties offices, ...) but there have been times in which they have thrown molotov cocktails to the ertzaintza (basque police). That is pretty terroristic, don't you think?

Tiajohanna : I believe most people of the world want to live in peace. But there will always be some humans who want to take control of or eliminate others. The believed superiority of one tribe or "race" over another continues even today despite a higher level of education & communication.

CaliBasco : A news report on the radio today in Spain said that "terroristas callejeros" attacked several vehicles containing provincial police (ertzaintzas) with firebombs near Bilbao, inflicting serious injuries. One of the vehicles was an "unmarked" car containing police in civilian clothes. Evidently these masked individuals were very well organized & knew their targets. How can these individuals be considered just hooligans?
And again , no arrests were made!
Why do you think that it is so easy to get away with violence in el pais vasco?

JDR-Probably for the same reasons about 95% of drive-by shootings are never resolved in L.A.: the criminals blend in too easily to their surroundings upon completion of their "acts". Masked hooligans remove their masks, and "voilá" no longer are they the "guy in the mask who did such-and-such". They're now just another "innocent" bystander. For a detailed explanation of why no arrests are made, I suggest a call to the local Ertzaina station.

I reiterate, that these are not "a sueldo" (paid by ETA) yet, but are just kids who would like to be, but aren't yet. That explains their willingness, Fernando. I also reiterate that when confronted, most of them would wet themselves, rat out their friends, and cry for mommy like any other frightened wuss who hides behind a mask.

JDR, what I meant is: the violence is not any solution, it only leads to more violence and innocent people suffer (as replay wrote before). I´m not well-informed enough to comment the conflict in BC, but there must be some other way to solve the problem.